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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
155
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Posted - 2011.10.23 21:18:00 -
[31] - Quote
Reilly Duvolle wrote:Hirana Yoshida wrote: What the stupidity called tier3 BCs will do is make the lower tier BS a thing of the past except in rare cases .. BC mobility with BS damage/range .. why should anyone ever want to use tier1 BS?
The ones that want tank and not only gank. Sure the Tier 3 BCs should push BS firepower, but they will be glass cannons compared to a properly fitted battleship. Tank is more important than gank in medium size fleet PVP. A fleet of Tier 1 BS should have no problem pwning a similary sized fleet of Tier 3 BCs, all other factors beeing equal. Must say a Drake with Cruise launchers doesn't sound that bad, though ....... |
Proteus Maximus
The Red Exhilez Chaos Theory Alliance
17
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Posted - 2011.10.23 21:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
Thing is with the new tier 3 BC is yes they will fit BS weapons... but what size. Taken into account there are a big heap of BS weapons that for the most part no one uses. Like the small and medium size for instance. Who's to say that this class of ship will. Have the grid to rack a full spread of 1400 artys or comparably sized blaster and laser turrets. We just don't know yet so pretty much its all conjecture.
Oh and I agree. OP next time just ask to buff the ship you want. Fear mongering is sniffed out faster than soiled panties around here. Eve... It's just a better class of Idiot. |
Dunn Idaho
Core Impulse
5
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Posted - 2011.10.23 22:08:00 -
[33] - Quote
JamesCLK wrote:Hungry Eyes wrote:this is pure fantasy from your mind. zealot sits at the top of HAC list in kills because of sniper gangs. zealot belongs at 100km+, otherwise you bring a harbie. snipe HAC gangs are more or less obsolete now, and will completely cease to exist with the new BCs that will easily be able to alpha cruiser+ ships from 150km. apocs and rokhs can already do this. tier 3 BCs will be able to do this as well, but with more mobility.
im not complaining about individual HACs, im saying they have no role.
Somehow, I doubt you've experienced the level of grape a PL Fist gang can inflict on a fleet of large turret based ships...Seriously, do not diss the Zealot - or sigrad tanking for that matter. HACs (you know, the good ones, not the Diemost &co.) have a role: that is to provide BC level dammage output in a much more compact format than say, a BC or BS - they're also fast, even with an AB, which makes them lethal against Battleships and Capitals. Obviously there are variations on this (read: Vagabond and the like), but overall the roles are there. You're exaggerating the effect of penalties beyond what they really are. AHACs are a proven concept too, like it or not. Now, wouldn't it be nice if the couple of HACs that actually need some love (Sacri, Diemost, Eagle) were brought up to par? Just sayin'
Actually AHACS are esay to counter these days with a fleet of baddons, supported by a few AB loki's webbing the primaries down for the BS guns to hit them.
In that situation they just melt. |
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
63
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Posted - 2011.10.23 23:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jennifer Starling wrote: Must say a Drake with Cruise launchers doesn't sound that bad, though .......
Except you wont get it. I expect to see no tanking bonuses on the new battlecruisers. These are meant to be glass cannons compared to battelships. Awesome high caliber firepower, comparetively weak tank - say 40-50k EHP like a shieldtanked Cane. Bonuses will probably centre around damage, maybe fitting and possibly EWAR, but not tank. |
Mashie Saldana
Veto. Veto Corp
48
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Posted - 2011.10.23 23:04:00 -
[35] - Quote
Jennifer Starling wrote:Must say a Drake with Cruise launchers doesn't sound that bad, though ....... Except it is more likley to be a Ferox with large railguns. Anastasia -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á Dominique-á-á Mashie -á-á Monica |
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
22
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Posted - 2011.10.23 23:11:00 -
[36] - Quote
Reilly Duvolle wrote: HACs are indeed outperformed by the t1 battlecruisers in terms of damage output and tank as a stand alone platform.
Another idiot who fails to realize that an Ishtar can almost out DPS and completely out tank a BS.
Seriously, 5 sentry, 5 heavy, 5 medium, and 5 light drones plus 3 medium turrets coupled with an AB or MWD means that you can outrun most targets and field an almost unending source of DPS through drones.
With even a basic armor tank setup you can achieve 90+ resist on all types of damage. Factor in the speed from an AB or MWD and you are next to impossible to hit.
If you PvP they better bring a few webs or they can't hit you. If you PvE, you can the solo the entire AE in half the time of a BS while killing every ship and using your extra 2 high slots for a tractor beam and salvager.
I call the OP out as a troll and idiot!
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Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
63
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Posted - 2011.10.23 23:12:00 -
[37] - Quote
Dunn Idaho wrote: Actually AHACS are esay to counter these days with a fleet of baddons, supported by a few AB loki's webbing the primaries down for the BS guns to hit them.
In that situation they just melt.
You are talking about different things. The OP claims that sniper BS will melt HACs, which they might do if you fit the HACs as snipers. However, a well executed armor-HAC gang will absolutely destroy a sniper BS-gang. But enter the Hellcat pulsebaddon, and the ArmorHAC gang runs into serious problems. But even the mighty Hellcat runs into trouble against a 100 alpha Muninns fitted for range - or a Alpha-Maelstrom gang.
Its simple really. Rock Paper Scissors. HACs absolutely have their role still, but they are not unbeatable, nor should they be. |
JamesCLK
Lone Star Exploration Narwhals Ate My Duck
17
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Posted - 2011.10.23 23:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
Dunn Idaho wrote: Actually AHACS are esay to counter these days with a fleet of baddons, supported by a few AB loki's webbing the primaries down for the BS guns to hit them.
In that situation they just melt.
I'm not argueing that AHAC fleets are indestructible, just that they have a role. And I will not deny that they will melt once they lose the only thing that keeps the big guns from hitting them.
Just like how a Dramiel will die once you put a couple of webs on it, unfortunately Drams can run away even with a pair of webs applied
Obviously your example works because you have cruiser sized vessels (the Lokis) with webs and a sigrad tank of their own. Once you eliminate an AHACs speed (and/or sigrad, if you fit target painters), it is pretty much dead.
I have to say though, for a solution, yours is pretty expensive when you consider the default counter to an AHAC fleet is a blob of Drakes.
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EnderCapitalG
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
207
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Posted - 2011.10.23 23:29:00 -
[39] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:escape goat
I'm listening. |
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
13
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Posted - 2011.10.24 03:06:00 -
[40] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:Albeit. Please don't tell me you also say irregardless, point in case, be more pacific, could care less, for all intensive purposes and escape goat.
In all consideration, from time to time, Ones own opinion, To be frank, This I foresee, and not to play devils.... I will stop now |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
98
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Posted - 2011.10.24 04:42:00 -
[41] - Quote
Dunn Idaho wrote:JamesCLK wrote:Hungry Eyes wrote:this is pure fantasy from your mind. zealot sits at the top of HAC list in kills because of sniper gangs. zealot belongs at 100km+, otherwise you bring a harbie. snipe HAC gangs are more or less obsolete now, and will completely cease to exist with the new BCs that will easily be able to alpha cruiser+ ships from 150km. apocs and rokhs can already do this. tier 3 BCs will be able to do this as well, but with more mobility.
im not complaining about individual HACs, im saying they have no role.
Somehow, I doubt you've experienced the level of grape a PL Fist gang can inflict on a fleet of large turret based ships...Seriously, do not diss the Zealot - or sigrad tanking for that matter. HACs (you know, the good ones, not the Diemost &co.) have a role: that is to provide BC level dammage output in a much more compact format than say, a BC or BS - they're also fast, even with an AB, which makes them lethal against Battleships and Capitals. Obviously there are variations on this (read: Vagabond and the like), but overall the roles are there. You're exaggerating the effect of penalties beyond what they really are. AHACs are a proven concept too, like it or not. Now, wouldn't it be nice if the couple of HACs that actually need some love (Sacri, Diemost, Eagle) were brought up to par? Just sayin' Actually AHACS are esay to counter these days with a fleet of baddons, supported by a few AB loki's webbing the primaries down for the BS guns to hit them. In that situation they just melt.
Well, the best you can hope for in that situation is evening the odds if the Fist fleet is properly set up.
The key ingredient that most people over look (mostly because it is so counter intuitive when talking about fitting a Zealot) is the fact that every pilot in the Fist fleet has a EW module of some type in the mids.
We ran proof of concept missions right after Fist fleets came out and yes Loki's can make a big difference. However they will be primary of the entire Fist fleet and all EW will be turned on them until they are gone. Still, that buys time... more so if you have a good logistics team on hand to back them up.
Most of the fleets we encountered that were trying to copy PL's tactic left out the vital EW component of their set ups and were much less effective in their efforts.
As to the other Hac's mentioned, I am hopeful that the hybrid balancing about to take place will help out the Deimos and the Eagle... and while I can't help liking the Sac for some odd reason, it needs... something.
Edit:
Almost forgot.
Current BC's are hard to kill primarily because of their tanking bonus. Since apparently the bulk of the bonus Tier 3 BC's receive will go towards being able to mount the BS weaponry (probably the smaller sizes), and possibly range and/or speed, I seriously doubt they will be difficult to kill when you get on top of them. I also doubt they will be able to mount as many weapons as a full sized BS typically can.
All in all the potential to be a very nice glass cannon that can be used to good effect, but having the inherent weaknesses that all glass cannons do. Poor tracking BS guns, high damage, possibly long range, possibly above average speed, and easy to kill inside optimal makes for interesting times ahead. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
ACE McFACE
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
39
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Posted - 2011.10.25 06:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:Move along, everyone. It's either a troll, or someone so dense that all hope is lost. I think hes on to something. I mean... do you see Zealots mining? or running missions? A Hurricane or Harbinger can do both much better than a Zealot, clearly Zealots need to become a dedicated mining ship. ZE GOGGLES, ZEY DO NOTHING! (Not wearing them so don't waste your time reading this sig) |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
231
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Posted - 2011.10.25 07:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
OP, stop posting. You are making a huge fool out of yourself. Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
231
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Posted - 2011.10.25 07:09:00 -
[44] - Quote
ACE McFACE wrote:DarkAegix wrote:Move along, everyone. It's either a troll, or someone so dense that all hope is lost. I think hes on to something. I mean... do you see Zealots mining? or running missions? A Hurricane or Harbinger can do both much better than a Zealot, clearly Zealots need to become a dedicated mining ship.
You don't see zealots because you live in high-sec. A quick venture into null-sec will show you Zealot fleets wtfpwning both BS and BC fleets. Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
187
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Posted - 2011.10.25 07:10:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I'll see your large artillery Tornado and raise you a afterburner pulse Zealot at close range.
I like this guy's style!
- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
231
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Posted - 2011.10.25 07:18:00 -
[46] - Quote
This thread has infinite degrees of amusement. Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Haulin Aussie
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2011.10.25 07:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
Make Heavy Assault ships cheaper, might make them a bit more viable, theres almost no point to using a HAC when bc are so cheap and insurable. |
Alara IonStorm
Caldari State
180
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 07:54:00 -
[48] - Quote
Haulin Aussie wrote:Make Heavy Assault ships cheaper, might make them a bit more viable, theres almost no point to using a HAC when bc are so cheap and insurable. Speed, Resists, Scan Res, Range, Drone Space and Sig Radius have almost no point.
Everyone stop flying Vegabonds now, Hurricanes are cheaper. |
Haulin Aussie
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2011.10.25 08:02:00 -
[49] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Haulin Aussie wrote:Make Heavy Assault ships cheaper, might make them a bit more viable, theres almost no point to using a HAC when bc are so cheap and insurable. Speed, Resists, Scan Res, Range, Drone Space and Sig Radius have almost no point. Everyone stop flying Vegabonds now, Hurricanes are cheaper. Renan Ruivo wrote:This thread has infinite degrees of amusement. The Smiles go all the way to my Bones.
1/8 aint bad bro. |
Alara IonStorm
Caldari State
180
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Posted - 2011.10.25 08:04:00 -
[50] - Quote
Haulin Aussie wrote: 1/8 aint bad bro.
Zealot, Cerberus, Ishtar and Muniin are wondering what you are on about.
No one cares what the Sac thinks but the Eagle and Deimos are syked for winter. |
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Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Fatal Ascension
168
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Posted - 2011.10.25 08:21:00 -
[51] - Quote
mmm.... Hybrid balancing, and not having people shoot down my dps all the time.
Can't wait to actually fly a diemost around and live up to the name o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
ACE McFACE
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
41
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Posted - 2011.10.26 06:50:00 -
[52] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:ACE McFACE wrote:DarkAegix wrote:Move along, everyone. It's either a troll, or someone so dense that all hope is lost. I think hes on to something. I mean... do you see Zealots mining? or running missions? A Hurricane or Harbinger can do both much better than a Zealot, clearly Zealots need to become a dedicated mining ship. You don't see zealots because you live in high-sec. A quick venture into null-sec will show you Zealot fleets wtfpwning both BS and BC fleets. Sorry I didnt realise I said Zealots can't PvP
Also just because I live in high sec now doesn't mean I have never ventured beyond that mysterious 0.4 gate ZE GOGGLES, ZEY DO NOTHING! (Not wearing them so don't waste your time reading this sig) |
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