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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:09:00 -
[181] - Quote
Tanya Fox wrote:Karadion wrote:Hecatonis wrote:my point is clear, in the current situation there is no situation were a miner "wins". it will always be a greater lose of the miners side regardless of prep, diligence, and tank. You aren't supposed to win at mining. If you want to get involved in minerals, go join a drone region alliance. Actually the Drone Regions are very good for alloys off of the rats, recommend it if you ever get the chance, assuming they've not nerfed it. Although drone parts used to be pretty useless probably still are.
congragulations you figured out what he was talking about |
Tanya Fox
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:11:00 -
[182] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Tanya Fox wrote:Karadion wrote:Hecatonis wrote:my point is clear, in the current situation there is no situation were a miner "wins". it will always be a greater lose of the miners side regardless of prep, diligence, and tank. You aren't supposed to win at mining. If you want to get involved in minerals, go join a drone region alliance. Actually the Drone Regions are very good for alloys off of the rats, recommend it if you ever get the chance, assuming they've not nerfed it. Although drone parts used to be pretty useless probably still are. congragulations you figured out what he was talking about
Well it was not hard I used to rat there. |
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:12:00 -
[183] - Quote
I'm loving the player generated content in game that spills over onto the forums and creates threads like this. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:17:00 -
[184] - Quote
Tanya Fox wrote:Well it was not hard I used to rat there.
well you seemed so pleased with yourself for figuring out that he meant drone compounds when he discussed minerals and the drone regions that i thought you deserved a pat on the head much like a dog who has not peed on the rug today, yet |
David Cedarbridge
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
114
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:21:00 -
[185] - Quote
Hecatonis wrote:David Cedarbridge wrote:Hecatonis wrote:also incorrect, as the ratio still leads itself in favor of the ganker, 3 fitting brutix still comes out to less then one fitting hulk. thus the gankers win
Lets see if you can ignore my alliance tag for long enough to make a coherent point. ignoring the fact that i have never made a direct comment to your alliance, i take it you are not going to hold your ground for too long
I'm sure that those who have already made points that you are dancing around will be amused by this one. Seems they've been around most of this thread.
Hecatonis wrote:Quote: Why does the ratio need to favor the gankee over the ganker? What sort of special place does the victim of the gank have that they should stand to lose less always than the ganker? It would seem that piracy has always been a possible gainful employ in EVE and would cease to be as interesting or gainful if the ratios were to be changed. Which would lead to the assumption that the game should favor the passive player over the active one. What logic is attached to this other than some concept that the non-consensual PVP should be hindered in the favor of more protections for players that would like to participate in all of the gains of an open market and an open playing field, without worrying about taking a loss for it.
In short, you're failing the burden of proof of your own argument. You state that this ratio favors the gankers but you fail to state why this is actually a problem and why it should be considered such.
my point is clear, in the current situation there is no situation were a miner "wins". it will always be a greater lose of the miners side regardless of prep, diligence, and tank. any group of yahoos can create an alt, train it for a couple months warp to zero and pulse smart bombs until the miner's ship and pod are dead. eve is about risk vs reward, and wars are fought with isk. you are fighting a war that you cannot loose because your tools are better, cheeper, in more supply, take less time ti build, requires less investment, and can be everywhere.
I find that warp disruption bubbles and gate camps in my route are unfair because when I want to go to Jita in my mammoth, people can shoot at me and I can't put enough tank on it to survive on my way to Jita. I lose a lot of ISK when I lose those ships. Even worse if I lose my cargo. This is unfair and makes it so that there is only a win situation for the ganker and not the gankee. I think I should be able to fit AOE doomsday devices or the like so that the gate camps lose at least as much isk as I do. Its only fair.
In the end, your premise is false. No part of EVE is supposed to be safe. At all. EVE is about risk and reward. But does that mean that those who take an active role and gank should lose isk over their victim? Considering that, as youv'e ignored, piracy is a legitimate venture in this game, what sense would it make to turn this in not an unprofitable venture simply on ratios. You are still not showing a legimate cause for why the ratio should make ganking cost the ganker more than the gankee loses.
Your add-on point, that no amount of preparation etc can prevent people from being ganked is also false and has been tried before. If I'm in a belt in 0.0 and there are non-blues in local and I press forward ratting, I'm probably going to lose my ship. That's the fact of things. If there are suspicious ships on grid in an ice belt, or a history of ship losses in a system, and I choose that as a place to set my miner and go make a sandwich, I'm running a high risk that my ship will not be there when I come back. That is my risk and my reward was chosen for me. Before you attempt to call this apples and oranges, each is a case of wallet increase (or eventual decrease) based entirely on the gankee's inabillity to use and process given information to further the existance of their ship. You'll find that the burden belongs on the shoulders of the person who lost their ship and not on the one who shot it.
Essentially, EVE is dangerous and the victims of ganks aren't entitled to make make some sort of profit for inability to do such basic things as tanking their ships and scouting out their mining areas before use. |
Tanya Fox
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:22:00 -
[186] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Tanya Fox wrote:Well it was not hard I used to rat there. well you seemed so pleased with yourself for figuring out that he meant drone compounds when he discussed minerals and the drone regions that i thought you deserved a pat on the head much like a dog who has not peed on the rug today, yet
You're not very good at reading what people are like are you.
Still you make me laugh. |
Hecatonis
Ascension Manufacturing
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:23:00 -
[187] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Quote:my point is clear, in the current situation there is no situation were a miner "wins". it will always be a greater lose of the miners side regardless of prep, diligence, and tank. You've never seen a failed gank have you? That is how the miner wins. Make them fail. Either warp off before they can lock you (keeping aligned and moving to one of any pre placed BMs allowing you to go back and forth while mining... yeah its work), or live long enough for Concord to kill them. Or... make fun use of your kill rights, though that is harder IMO.
yes i have seen failed ganks. in fact i have a hulk thats only job is to make gankers die on its hull. but i see you didnt read my post i will say it again
it takes 4 people to make sure a miner dies before he can react (baring he knows they are in system)
cloak covert ops, move 5 km behind miner 3 BS with smartbombs warp to 5 km warp away covert ops pulse smart bombs once on grid best tanked hulk will die with pod before concord gets there
total cost to ganker 160 mil total cost to miner 210 mil
gankers loot and salvage the wreaks, collect the insurance for lets say 30 mil so the expected efficiency sits at 162% worst case 131% for assured kills.
works every time
the miner will never know the spotter was there. the gankers can move to a different system or belt unload new ships from an orca even with -10 and continue.
you cant use an escort as it will not have the time to do anything, i have yet to see if a logi can protect you from it, but i dont think so. its an active correction system so unless the miner warps off wile the BSs are in warp (and why would they, they dont know its coming)
this set up can also be trained in about 3 months for the BS pilots, the orca and spotter pilots are never seen therefor never need to be recycled. you can also use the BS pilots for as long as you like even with -10 sec status. the only thing that stops you is your cash flow, and with a nul sec alliance funding the operation that shouldnt be the problem.
therefore the miners have no protection, at all, ever.
eve is a cold harsh world, but it should always let you mitigate some of the risk, not all, but some. in the current incarnation there is no way to mitigate the risk. there are no tools that let a highsec miner protect themselves from always loosing more then the ganker.
now if you could fit a hulk so someone would have to spend 250 mil to kill a 200 mil ship then yes, feel free. |
David Cedarbridge
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
114
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:24:00 -
[188] - Quote
Tanya Fox wrote:Weaselior wrote:Tanya Fox wrote:Well it was not hard I used to rat there. well you seemed so pleased with yourself for figuring out that he meant drone compounds when he discussed minerals and the drone regions that i thought you deserved a pat on the head much like a dog who has not peed on the rug today, yet You're not very good at reading what people are like are you. Still you make me laugh.
I'd trust Weaslior with my sister. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
900
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:33:00 -
[189] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Usually people who support gankers just like "tears".... While supporters of defense like smart playstyle and industrial part of the game. Not really, no. Users who support gankers just like smart playstyle and the industrial part of the game, to say nothing of player-generated content in a PvP-centric game, whereas the supporters of defense like to be protected without any effort on their part.
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1169
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:44:00 -
[190] - Quote
Hecatonis wrote:the miner will never know the spotter was there. the gankers can move to a different system or belt unload new ships from an orca even with -10 and continue you can't fit a bs in an orca numbnuts
you can also go "hmm, three -10s showed up in system time to go" |
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ALoneHobo
Matari Merchant Venturers
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:51:00 -
[191] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Hecatonis wrote:the miner will never know the spotter was there. the gankers can move to a different system or belt unload new ships from an orca even with -10 and continue you can't fit a bs in an orca numbnuts you can also go "hmm, three -10s showed up in system time to go"
If the correct response from a miner to three -10s showing up in a system is always to leave then the -10s have complete risk-free control of the situation and the action of the miners with absolutely nothing that can be done to mitigate their position. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
900
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:55:00 -
[192] - Quote
ALoneHobo wrote:If the correct response from a miner to three -10s showing up in a system is always to leave then the -10s have complete risk-free control of the situation and the action of the miners with absolutely nothing that can be done to mitigate their position. The correct response is not to leave, but to stop mining and get into a combat ship and go and blow up those -10s. And then go back to mining until they come back for a second round of getting killedGǪ
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Igualmentedos
Shadow Veil Industrial Shadow Directive
43
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 17:59:00 -
[193] - Quote
Can't we just make a sticky of this topic? That would make the forums slightly less annoying. |
ALoneHobo
Matari Merchant Venturers
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:02:00 -
[194] - Quote
Tippia wrote:ALoneHobo wrote:If the correct response from a miner to three -10s showing up in a system is always to leave then the -10s have complete risk-free control of the situation and the action of the miners with absolutely nothing that can be done to mitigate their position. The correct response is not to leave, but to stop mining and get into a combat ship and go and blow up those -10s. And then go back to mining until they come back for a second round of getting killedGǪ
So the correct response for someone who has chosen mining as his career is to be a combat pilot with sufficient skills to scan down and take out battleships? I think I may be sensing a problem here ... |
ALoneHobo
Matari Merchant Venturers
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:05:00 -
[195] - Quote
To those supporting the current mechanics:
Do you genuinely think they are perfect and that in this one area CCP have amazingly hit on the perfectly balanced formula that eludes them in every other area of the game? Is there nothing at all that you think should be changed about this system? No nuances, details, or tweaks that could improve balance? |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:05:00 -
[196] - Quote
Consequences are imaginary
I could post several real life events when thousands of people died and show the idea but i chose not to, since many are not prepared to face the truth. |
Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists Yarr Collective
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:10:00 -
[197] - Quote
ALoneHobo wrote:Weaselior wrote:Hecatonis wrote:the miner will never know the spotter was there. the gankers can move to a different system or belt unload new ships from an orca even with -10 and continue you can't fit a bs in an orca numbnuts you can also go "hmm, three -10s showed up in system time to go" If the correct response from a miner to three -10s showing up in a system is always to leave then the -10s have complete risk-free control of the situation and the action of the miners with absolutely nothing that can be done to mitigate their position.
Actually we like to travel in packs of 8 to 10 across High sec, just to **** with ya. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
909
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:10:00 -
[198] - Quote
ALoneHobo wrote:So the correct response for someone who has chosen mining as his career is to be a combat pilot with sufficient skills to scan down and take out battleships? I think I may be sensing a problem here ... Yes. The problem is that you believe they'll be in battleships, and that you believe that, even if they were, they'd be difficult to kill.
The mining GÇ£careerGÇ£ is very short GÇö especially if you stay in highsec GÇö so it's not particularly difficult to squeeze some remedial combat equipment in there.
Quote:To those supporting the current mechanics:
Do you genuinely think they are perfect and that in this one area CCP have amazingly hit on the perfectly balanced formula that eludes them in every other area of the game? Not perfect, no, but it seems to be working quite nicely right now. It took a few tweaks to get there, but at least now, people have problems showing that there's anything wrong with the formula.
Quote:Is there nothing at all that you think should be changed about this system? No nuances, details, or tweaks that could improve balance? Sure. Ganking could be made a lot easier so as to make space travel more interesting. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Avril Dewar
Northstar Cabal Important Internet Spaceship League
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:18:00 -
[199] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:Is there nothing at all that you think should be changed about this system? No nuances, details, or tweaks that could improve balance? Sure. Ganking could be made a lot easier so as to make space travel more interesting.
I'm going to have to follow your own rhetorical tactic here and ask you to demonstrate that this would be optimal for the game as a whole. If you are unable to back this up with hard data and numbers (as you demand from those who suggest changes in the other direction) you will only have revealed your bias on this issue and laid bare the impossibility of discussing it rationally with you.
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Skunk Gracklaw
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
354
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:19:00 -
[200] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Consequences are imaginary
I could post several real life events when thousands of people died and show the idea but i chose not to, since many are not prepared to face the truth. Because Eve is just like real life you see
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I Accidentally YourShip
Suzuka Heavy Industries
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:24:00 -
[201] - Quote
Suddenly Boom wrote:Berendas wrote:
Also, I do have to say that is a hilarious name for a suicide alt.
Thanks, just sitting there, mining away, chilling, suddenly boom! In more ways than one.
+1
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1170
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:26:00 -
[202] - Quote
David Cedarbridge wrote: I'd trust Weaslior with my sister.
oh goodie |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
909
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:27:00 -
[203] - Quote
Avril Dewar wrote:I'm going to have to follow your own rhetorical tactic here and ask you to demonstrate that this would be optimal for the game as a whole. It wouldn't. But I would enjoy it more if I got back that slight fear of open space I had back when I started, not being fully knowledgeable of the rules and the risks, but having learned enough to know that someone could just blow me out of the sky for no particular reason.
Jita 4-4 was the stuff of (murderous) legendsGǪ GÖÑGÖÑGÖÑ GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1170
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:27:00 -
[204] - Quote
ALoneHobo wrote:To those supporting the current mechanics:
Do you genuinely think they are perfect and that in this one area CCP have amazingly hit on the perfectly balanced formula that eludes them in every other area of the game? Is there nothing at all that you think should be changed about this system? No nuances, details, or tweaks that could improve balance?
yes chages would be good, ganking should be made easier
fortunately ccp has seen the righteousness of our cause and rewarded us with the tornado |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration
78
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:37:00 -
[205] - Quote
Avril Dewar wrote:Tippia wrote:Quote:Is there nothing at all that you think should be changed about this system? No nuances, details, or tweaks that could improve balance? Sure. Ganking could be made a lot easier so as to make space travel more interesting. I'm going to have to follow your own rhetorical tactic here and ask you to demonstrate that this would be optimal for the game as a whole. If you are unable to back this up with hard data and numbers (as you demand from those who suggest changes in the other direction) you will only have revealed your bias on this issue and laid bare the impossibility of discussing it rationally with you.
Hay... I'll bite...
I argue that EvE right now is almost perfectly safe. It's almost impossible to get killed, particularly if your main objective is moving stuff around or traveling. I roam space without consequence, and I'll tell you how:
Rules:
- Never Fly AFK (autopilot)
- Use a scout in empire and low sec (don't even need it in null if following methods below
- Own your corp, start an alliance
HowTo:
- Empire - Jump freighters have around 2x the HP of regular freighters... you can even AFK/autopilot in empire and are relatively safe from even a large suicide ganking fleet. My hauler alts only fly freighters and jump freighters in empire.
- LowSec - There are several types of ship almost totally invulnerable here. Shuttles and covops are obvious, b/c of fast warp and ability to warp cloaked. Blockade runners can warp cloaked and are also very quick to warp. No remotely competent pilot is at any risk flying these in lowsec. The nullSec methods work just as well here too.
- NullSec - Got a lot of stuff to move? Use a jump freighter. You go from empire to null, station to station, and never even get close to being outside of docking range. Jump freighters are invulnerable in this way. Personally, when I'm just shooting around null checking out who's up to what or ninja looting or scamming or whatever, I often fly a Tengu w/ a covert reconfiguration, interdiction nullifier, and stabs. You just can't catch it. Bubble camps, huge ultra mega uber-camps, ...makes no difference. I blow through them all the time. You simply can't catch that.
- WarDecs - well they just changed the rules here, but now you can drop alliance and move in between alliances with your whole corp to avoid WarDecs. No threat there. WarDecs are inherently broken.
So no... you aren't at risk right now. EvE is safe. When I see huge bubble camps or have a hostile fleet in the area... all I see are sparkle ponies everywhere.
Some of you are complaining about too many risks... I don't get it. I don't see any. At all. ALL GëívGëí Ships | Odd-áGëívGëí Items | <-- Links to showInfo in-game |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:42:00 -
[206] - Quote
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Consequences are imaginary
I could post several real life events when thousands of people died and show the idea but i chose not to, since many are not prepared to face the truth. Because Eve is just like real life you see
Is it not? You can detach yourself from being "human" in game you can just adapt to enviroment but you are still bound to yourself and to the creature inside you which has been created by society.
EVE is actually perfect simulator of what will happen if ...... |
Skunk Gracklaw
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
357
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:50:00 -
[207] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Skunk Gracklaw wrote:Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Consequences are imaginary
I could post several real life events when thousands of people died and show the idea but i chose not to, since many are not prepared to face the truth. Because Eve is just like real life you see Is it not? You can detach yourself from being "human" in game you can just adapt to enviroment but you are still bound to yourself and to the creature inside you which has been created by society. EVE is actually perfect simulator of what will happen if ...... lol you're a loon
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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:52:00 -
[208] - Quote
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Skunk Gracklaw wrote:Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Consequences are imaginary
I could post several real life events when thousands of people died and show the idea but i chose not to, since many are not prepared to face the truth. Because Eve is just like real life you see Is it not? You can detach yourself from being "human" in game you can just adapt to enviroment but you are still bound to yourself and to the creature inside you which has been created by society. EVE is actually perfect simulator of what will happen if ...... lol you're a loon
Thanks i guess.
I take it as an compliment.
I am just Insane, or i am the only sane left. Depend |
DeliciousHamBeast
The Concilium Enterprises Spectrum Alliance
133
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:52:00 -
[209] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:Skunk Gracklaw wrote:Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:... Because Eve is just like real life you see Is it not? You can detach yourself from being "human" in game you can just adapt to enviroment but you are still bound to yourself and to the creature inside you which has been created by society. EVE is actually perfect simulator of what will happen if ......
You sound kinda like a crazy person, but that might be the 'creature inside me' speaking.
To chime in on the suicide gack stuff, highsec is incredibly safe, but it's "High Security" not "Weird space where everyone is invulnerable and hold hands". If you're worried about being ganked, fit a bloody tank on your ship - or at least pay attention. People with bad security status show up in local, and get announced across the entire system. -- Beep Beep Imma Jeep. |
Skunk Gracklaw
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
357
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 18:53:00 -
[210] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:I take it as an compliment. Oh it was
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