What constituted a hacking attempt prior to Odyssey?

What constitutes one now?

Data is pretty but needs more definition.

The 65% fail rate seems to me that you'd be counting two tries at the same can as 2 attempts, whereas before it might have only been one attempt? I can't imagine you counted every cycle of a hacking mod as an attempt in the pre-odyssey data.

Whatever the reason for the dip in use of Combat Sites in null-sec

how and when do you plan to address the price drop for pretty much everything found in these sites ? in your internal priority list, does it come before or after the increased complexity you have planned for the hacking minigame itself or after ?`

do you have any data on people dying in these sites compared to before the new mechanics ? (not paying much attention to local was something i immediately realized on myself)

It's prioritized very highly, in that I am already working on this :) I am currently looking at the income made for each site and we will balance accordingly if we see an issue.

i for one would love to find more jackpot items, i love jackpot items

It's prioritized very highly, in that I am already working on this :) I am currently looking at the income made for each site and we will balance accordingly if we see an issue.

High-sec at least seems to be on a similar trend, albeit with a much smaller jump in usage but what on earth happened to null-sec Combat Sites? We'd need to gather some more information to find out exactly but clearly people are much less interested in them now.

What constituted a hacking attempt prior to Odyssey?

What constitutes one now?

Data is pretty but needs more definition.

The 65% failsuccess rate seems to me that you'd be counting two tries at the same can as 2 attempts, whereas before it might have only been one attempt? I can't imagine you counted every cycle of a hacking mod as an attempt in the pre-odyssey data.

EDIT: going back now, i see the top graphs were for completions, not attempts. It makes perfect sense that people are trying a new feature more often. Let's see what the graph looks like long term. :)

EDIT 2: 65% success rate, my bad. Knew what I meant, but labeled it wrong.

haha doesn't everyone? :D

(Blue GÇô Parts, Orange GÇô Materials, Red GÇô Data, Green GÇô Equipment, Purple GÇô Scraps)

Now for a question to CCP: If more people are out exploring, does that mean fewer are running missions? Has the new exploration feature reduced that ISK faucet by any measurable extent?

I'm sure the frigates added in forsaken hubs accounts for some of the completion drop.

I asked around to try and work out what had gone on before posting this. CCP Fozzie just told me about the nerf as well. It seems reasonable as an answer. :D

I guess I should read the patch notes!

It's still a minor skill barrier for the players and it's a good thing. It means not bothering to learn it decreases your income and taking the effort to learn the system allows you to reliable increase your income level. And no it wouldn't be more fun to randomize things. The loot drops are already random, so making aquiring the loot random is totally pointless, eliminates the influence of player skill and is extremely frustrating to the player. Little randomness in gambling is good. Replacing all player skill, preparation and strategy with randomness sucks ass.

I would like to se the stats for WH sites. The Mag sites in spesific. There you have like 15 cans to hack/analyse. It gets pretty boring after 5 cans. As before one could do 2-3 sites in 1,5 hour. Now you will bee luck to finish one.

What about figures for WH space? Please don't forget your other 2500 systems.

This is the only thing my friends and I do in game any more.

Hey ultra veterans with 5+ years in game...

As a group of new players

I must be getting old and slow in my veteran years since I know I have NOT done everything this game has to offer. But these "group of new players" must have done everything in quite a short span of time to NOT be considered veterans of the game themselves but decided that loot pinata "is the only thing ... do in game any more".

I should try some of these jackpot loot machines. Maybe the bells, lights, and whistles imitate real life slot machines.

Good afternoon Capsuleers,

It's Dev Blog time!

It's been several weeks since the launch of EVE Online: Odyssey, and CCP Bayesian is here to show you some high-level statistics regarding exploration and scanning since the new mechanics were introduced on June 4th.

High-sec at least seems to be on a similar trend, albeit with a much smaller jump in usage but what on earth happened to null-sec Combat Sites? We'd need to gather some more information to find out exactly but clearly people are much less interested in them now.

I asked around to try and work out what had gone on before posting this. CCP Fozzie just told me about the nerf as well. It seems reasonable as an answer. :D

I guess I should read the patch notes!

It's prioritized very highly, in that I am already working on this :) I am currently looking at the income made for each site and we will balance accordingly if we see an issue.

[quote=CCP Falcon]Good afternoon Capsuleers,

watch your market share slip away to new space empire games who have better maps to play on.

Please tell me that this is some sort of joke. Anyone who does any money making in null can tell you in a heartbeat why there's a crash in the number of ratters doing Hubs.

You added tackling frigates to them.

It isn't even the presence of tackling rats that is the problem here - the issue is that by adding small, fast, high resist rats, you've removed entire categories of ships from being able to run those anoms. And to add insult to injury, the promised sanctum/haven changes (fewer small ships, more battleships) didn't materialize, so there's no reason to shift to running them either!

If you wanted to add the risk of being tackled by NPCs and then ganked, you should have added scramming cruisers - that way we could still use T3 BCs/Vindicators, we'd just have to be more careful.


I'm completely baffled by the fact that CCP doesn't seem to be able to understand the simple direct results of PvE changes, while managing to have a decent grasp on PvP (as evidenced by tiericide).

No, it obviously makes a lot more sense to have frigates, cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships all in one anomaly designed to be run by one person.

But yeah, it's painfully obvious that if they wanted to add more risk to these sites (and in a meaningful way), all they needed to do was add scramming to either the cruisers, BCs, or battleships. But nope, lets add frigates. I too have not run a single anomaly since the changes.

Hope the diving income gets adressed soon.
Looks like you expect the number of explorers to stay higher then before Odyssey so i think what's needed is a much wider range of loot so the market doesn't get flooded with the same couple items from everyone. Or more jackpot items to set off the lower income from the regular loot. Tho i'm not so sure what it could be because i sorta expect everything to dive that will be put in these sites :/

Something something free market. Prices are going to get hosed until people start saying "this isn't worth doing", or "this is barely worth doing." Then they will stabilize. You're pretty much right in whatever they put into these sites is going to drop in value, and any fix other than letting the player economy come up with the value for for the labor performed and risk taken is going to flop.

The only alternative might be expanding the hacking game so that arch V and hack V are required for some sites, or so that the sites with high value items are extremely difficult to probe down without high skills. Changing the time sink for becoming moderately profitable will stem the number of people who pursue the profession, and limit the item flood. More people will still train to do it, because probing and hacking is no longer brain-hemorrhaging-ly boring, but it'll shave off some of the mission-running interlopers who can't tack a month onto their skill time before cruise missiles V.

But then, limiting the exploration crowd is exactly what CCP doesn't want to do. You've seen their trailer for the expansion, right? All bets: get ready for new, permanent lower prices on salvage, blueprints, etc.

No one is going to make a joke about Bayesian statistics? I've lost faith in this community.

You show one year worth of exploration being flat lined, then a spike when it is "improved". How does this spike compare to past "improvements"? In other words how much of the spike is due to something being new?

Since the "improvement" the trend for relic and data sites is downward. You could easily say this isn't indicative of future results due to the small sample size. But then why would you show results with a small sample size to begin with?

Hacking attempts is not indicative of people using the feature. As a matter of fact none of your graphs are, they just represent runs or attempts. The whole point of dumbing down exploration was to attract more people to it. Do you have any data to support that, or are the old explorers just taking advantage of you making it easier?

I love how exploration works, its pretty clear that it was meant to be easier and faster to scan down a site. But I do have 1 problem or 1 question regarding the hacking sites which seems to be odd in nature.

Questions to the devs : When you successfully complate a hacking minigame and those mini cans are release was it intended to have a "BIG" random chance of loot gathering ?

Before the patch I remember when you hacked a container, you had some loot in your can and that was it. THere was no chance of getting like the current system. Just think about it. you get around 6-10 cans when you hack correctly. At best your cargo scanner on those scans works with a timer of 5 seconds. Given the fact you have to target all containers, scan it, look at the items. At the end it doesn't give you enough time to get the item you want.

Personally, I would love to get a list of items so I can choose what I want. Either because of what I need for production or just pure profit. This current system has way too much chance in it and I don't personally like that since the original one didn't incorporate any chance at all...except for the success cycle of hacking the container.

what on earth happened to null-sec Combat Sites?

I hope someone in CCP could make similar bog analysing results of 0.0 industry improvements in Odyssey.

I'm especially interested in how much of an increase, if any, we had in 0.0 mining, and was there any increase in number of .0. manufacturing slots being used, and by how much.

Gotta agree with others, the loot scattering thing is just horrible. I don't mind the mini-game thing much, but only getting a little carbon and some data sheets when my scanner said there was some great **** in the container? Balls. Very much balls. Explo isn't worth my time.

You are really doing it wrong. You can 100% guarantee getting the good stuff. And that's solo.

http://neural-boost.com/minicontainer-loot-distribution

You are really doing it wrong. You can 100% guarantee getting the good stuff. And that's solo.

http://neural-boost.com/minicontainer-loot-distribution

Prop Wash, you tell me not to mistake correlation for causation and then go on to tell me how the changes we made caused the change in the number of people using one of the sites!

That aside we definitely don't see rising numbers as a compliment but it's one metric amongst many that we do look at to judge the success of a feature against our goals for it.

Am I the only one who notices that you guys are completely ignoring any post aimed at asking you for comment on the new scanning system (where "hidden" sites are plainly visible)?

Some of the price drop must be the ease of which the sites are being found. I'm not getting particularly awesome drops when I do a site but I'm sure that cumulatively the community of explorers are because it's no effort at all to find sites and to bypass systems with none available.

The changes to scanning aren't something I worked on directly or commented on apart from as an obvious confounding factor in the devblog, so it's not really a topic I can actually address.

"Whatever the reason for the dip in use of Combat Sites in null-sec"

Seriously??? I petitioned this 6 months ago.

THERE ARE NO LOOT DROPS!!!

I had 2 and a half weeks off from work last month. Did about 10-15 sites, 6/8/10/10 Guristas sites and I think I got maybe about 2 bill loot from it.

The new scanning/exploration mechanic made it so easy that it is not a viable source of income anymore. The least you could have done was kept combat sites as they were.

I've lost the urge to do exploration since Odyssey. I find it too tedious for the possible rewards, playing the mini-game to get a chance at something good, which usually fails to happen much of the time. Definitely not worth the time and trouble now. Like a lot of stuff that is getting noobed down. EVE is getting boring.

I still think that the way the hacking minigame has been implemented has been a terrible loss for solo and casual friendly content. CCP may disagree and maybe they don't like soloers nor people with a life, but I regret that nonetheless.

As for exploration itself, in my experience it has moved from being difficult and unrewarding to become easy, boring and unrewarding.

And by the way, to the developer who made those diminutive fast moving tick boxes: I've been minding your family thoroughly each time I ended a hack and lost the loot struggling to see the cans with my eyes 10 centimeters away from the screen (compared to the usual 20 centimeters), and then turn that I picked the wrong can because the labels are so unreadable.

Maybe they should be affected by the UI settings, as 110% zoom was the best thing the EVE UI did for me in a while...

Or maybe even play the part of the game you're blogging about!

*snip*This has just been a quick poke through the high-level statistics we have for our exploration site changes. Part of our work towards Odyssey 1.1 involves getting more fine grained statistics into our automated tools so we can track changes we make to Hacking and Scattering in the future. We'll doubtless be back with more information in the future and I'm sure other teams will be along shortly with more pretty, pretty graphs.

Kai Pirinha, I'm mostly considering the statistics in terms of what people did in the sites and trying to find comparisons in other places that shed some light on that. The big problem is that I can only work from the information that was available before Odyssey to do that. In the future we'll endeavour to add statistics in a patch prior to releasing an expansion so we can see change over that boundary for elements we want to measure. Also our system needs some additions to aggregate data which it doesn't have in our automated viewer/graph generator so I was forced to just pick some interesting sites rather than looking at the aggregate data for all Data/Relic Sites versus Combat Sites.

I don't think it's sensible to draw too firm conclusions from this data at all. As mentioned in the blog we're working to add more fine grained information in. The big ticket numbers are also easier to talk about in the generalities that the blog sticks too.

We consider all sorts of data sources other than raw user numbers though. Our Research and Statistics guys have been conducting surveys for many expansions now, as just one example.

It's really bizarre that some people are asking for the probing process to be made more tedious, as it was before this expansion. Forcing people to drop probes in every single system will not make people quit doing probing, it just makes those that do it endure tedious, repetitive, unrewarding activity.

e: I mean I guess some of you hope to drive away the majority of people currently doing it so there will be only a handful of players who can tolerate probing. You probably shouldn't expect CCP to bend over backwards to give you interesting content and at the same time intentionally make it repellent to the great majority of the playerbase but hey who knows.

And seriously there needs to be more sites, more frequently. Traveling 20 jumps through null sec and finding no data/relic sites at all is really pretty terrible and disappointing. At least I get a lot of practice running enemy gatecamps though.

You are correct that such suggestions follow an agenda that aims to drive people away. Less people doing it means the sites stay worth running for me as i have the skills and am willing to specialize further if necessary. It's pretty selfish but we gotta stay real.

[quote=Johan Toralen]You are correct that such suggestions follow an agenda that aims to drive people away. Less people doing it means the sites stay worth running for me as i have the skills and am willing to specialize further if necessary. It's pretty selfish but we gotta stay real.

I do about 50 every night.

It's really bizarre that some people are asking for the probing process to be made more tedious, as it was before this expansion. Forcing people to drop probes in every single system will not make people quit doing probing, it just makes those that do it endure tedious, repetitive, unrewarding activity.

e: I mean I guess some of you hope to drive away the majority of people currently doing it so there will be only a handful of players who can tolerate probing. You probably shouldn't expect CCP to bend over backwards to give you interesting content and at the same time intentionally make it repellent to the great majority of the playerbase but hey who knows.

And seriously there needs to be more sites, more frequently. Traveling 20 jumps through null sec and finding no data/relic sites at all is really pretty terrible and disappointing. At least I get a lot of practice running enemy gatecamps though.

Mmmm yeah I don't think you should have come right out and said that. Good luck and stay real space brother!

You think the guys at CCP are so naive to think any suggestion comes out of good will? Ther's always a personal agenda. People want more isk, easy kills, no risk for themself etc.
The game doesn't revolve around me. I don't expect them to listen to me of all players. But if enough players voice similar opinion maybe a compromise can be found that everybody is somewhat happy with.

How notion of cov ops oline is a personal agenda ??

What of someone personal agenda is interesting game and not maximizing isk/hour ???

It's prioritized very highly, in that I am already working on this :) I am currently looking at the income made for each site and we will balance accordingly if we see an issue.

Idea how to fix the salvage market:
Have all t2 rigs use up the same calibration points as their t1 equivalents. This should increase demand by a lot and keep the profession sustainable for a larger number of explorers.
Sure some ships might become pretty powerful with these changed fitting requirements but then ppl also pay lot more for these rigs. Some tweaks can be done further down the line to other stats of the rigs should specific combinations turn out to be too over powered.

At least this could be tried out gradually on some popular rigs to see what effect it will have on the market.

And by the way, to the developer who made those diminutive fast moving tick boxes: I've been minding your family thoroughly each time I ended a hack and lost the loot struggling to see the cans with my eyes 10 centimeters away from the screen (compared to the usual 20 centimeters), and then turn that I picked the wrong can because the labels are so unreadable.

Maybe they should be affected by the UI settings, as 110% zoom was the best thing the EVE UI did for me in a while...

It may well increase demand of T2 rigs but may not see more use of them as cost is a major factor in rig buying. I don't know anyone who will fit T2 rigs to a T1 ship due to cost. Decrease cost of T2 rigs you kill hacking as a profession.

T2 rig prices decrease as we speak because of the t2 salvage price crash. This killing of the profession as you call it happens before your very eyes right now.
The change of the fitting requirements would increase demand. How often do i sit in front of EFT messing around only to find that the t2 rigs don't fit. Now obviously nobody's gonna fit them on cheap t1 pvp frig. But ther's enough hisec dwellers with too much isk who wouldn't mind to put t2 rigs on any of their missions boats or whatever as long as it fits.
This is the increase of the demand. What then follows is more producers will hop on this train, buy more t2 salvage from the market and salvage prices go up.

CCP thought the capital rigs would offset the incoming flood of salvage from Odyssey. Obviously that didn't work out for t2 salvage. The t2 cap rig market is so niche a handful explorers and a single producer could cover it.
But that the thought wasn't completely naive can be seen in the t1 salvage market where prices actualy went up despite the loot flood. That is because t1 cap rigs actualy get produced and a lot of salvage is necessary for that.

Now i don't see t2 cap rigs to ever become more then a niche. So we have to look what other ways to increase demand for t2 rigs. And as i see it the biggest limiting factor are the fitting requirements.
Without this fitting small, medium and large t2 rigs suddenly would be viable on a much wider scale.

Its not the items that are the issue its the demand, demand was already relatively weak prior to odyssey.

CCP needs to create more demand for exploration related materials. Add bpc merging that uses some materials, shift datacore to supply from passive research agent farming, make data interfaces have finite amount of uses (so that people need to purchase more than one).

My eyesight has become a huge factor in not doing something I used to enjoy (and make my primary income from). I have been unable to read any tags on the fast moving little reward cans and simply grab what I can before they simply expire.

(...)

It's prioritized very highly, in that I am already working on this :) I am currently looking at the income made for each site and we will balance accordingly if we see an issue.

Heh, thanks for sharing that. I was beginning to wonder wether I was the only player with poor eyesight playing this game... it's very frustrating to try to click those diminutive moving tick boxes and be unable to tell which ones are trash and which ones are supposed to be your reward for playing the game.

Certainly if I was to implement the idea my way, I would make the tags 2x larger and clicking on the tag would select the box too...

Ps; if you have noticed a crash in the prices of T2 salvage I'd be interested to know what region you are in. I'll go there and buy as much as I can carry.

The changes to scanning aren't something I worked on directly or commented on apart from as an obvious confounding factor in the devblog, so it's not really a topic I can actually address.

what on earth happened to null-sec Combat Sites? We'd need to gather some more information to find out exactly but clearly people are much less interested in them now.

It might have something to do with the war in Fountain. The CFC are deployed and spend their time grinding structures and fighting TEST and friends while TEST and friends spend their time defending their space.

It's prioritized very highly, in that I am already working on this :) I am currently looking at the income made for each site and we will balance accordingly if we see an issue.

"Whatever the reason for the dip in use of Combat Sites in null-sec"

Seriously??? I petitioned this 6 months ago.

THERE ARE NO LOOT DROPS!!!

I had 2 and a half weeks off from work last month. Did about 10-15 sites, 6/8/10/10 Guristas sites and I think I got maybe about 2 bill loot from it.

The new scanning/exploration mechanic made it so easy that it is not a viable source of income anymore. The least you could have done was kept combat sites as they were.

Being that another month has just about past.

Would you care to update the graphs to show us the trends as time goes on?

Hacking is way to booring. Also CCP, you have the incarna technology, so WAKE UP!!!

Make the site a maze, where you enter a site in person, and hack doors, computers and what not to get to the loot ...
Then add some boobytraps (yes i like boobies too :-) and explode the whole thing with you inside if you are to dumb to get out in time....
That would be sooooo much more fun...

Now the only fun we have with these sites, is waiting for a poor solo hacker to enter, and then warp in after he got a few cans open.....

Being that another month has just about past.

Would you care to update the graphs to show us the trends as time goes on?

fix....rogue drone...region.....no relics sites(and very very few data sites)

ticket ID: 3274491