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Noisrevbus
460
   |
Posted - 2013.07.04 23:54:00 -
[61] - Quote
 "Additional advantages are free high slots that can be loaded with neutralisers /.../ remoter reps or other utilities".
 It's a Drone-boat. It has utility highs, other boats have ... utility drones.
"First is reduced significance of line fleet members"
You joined a big fleet. Any big fleet has a massively reduced significance of "line" members.
"They already do not pilot their ships but instead are just anchored, or aligned to celestial as instructed by FC"
You joined a big fleet. Mobility has been reduced directly and indirectly in a series of expansions since 2008, encouraging big fleets and discouraging small gangs interested in shooting big fleets.
"They often already make no target selection decisions but only follow broadcast from FC".
You joined a big fleet. That you don't broadcast is the true strength of a drone-concept in this day and age, since in big fleets, fleets are littered with spies and with a "trigger" the hostile side won't know your primaries (as they shouldn't).
"it is fair to say those fleets tend to be less interesting game experience for your average grunt".
You joined a big fleet. It's a less interesting game experience being a "grunt".
"Second problem is perfect alpha and how it balances with remote reps".
You joined a big fleet. Alpha is an issue in any big fleet as damage scales with numbers while tank do not.
"Thing with remote reps is they /are/ very binary, they either can save whole fleet, or if enemy has sufficient alpha".
You joined a big fleet. The scaling of alpha that makes RR "binary" is only a problem in big fleets.
So... what you're saying is that CCP should look into ways to better balance numbers and big fleets?
I wholeheartedly agree!  .
All of the issues you mentioned are better adressed by looking at fleets and scaling of pilots than by looking at drones.
Already stale big fleets will not be made better if we remove one option at a time until there are only LR-L turrets left.
In short, adress fleet scaling, not drone-functions that are also used outside of big fleets. |
El Gravy
Vicious Industrial
Redrum Fleet
10
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Posted - 2013.07.05 08:23:00 -
[62] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:"Additional advantages are free high slots that can be loaded with neutralisers /.../ remoter reps or other utilities".It's a Drone-boat. It has utility highs, other boats have ... utility drones. "First is reduced significance of line fleet members"You joined a big fleet. Any big fleet has a massively reduced significance of "line" members. "They already do not pilot their ships but instead are just anchored, or aligned to celestial as instructed by FC"You joined a big fleet. Mobility has been reduced directly and indirectly in a series of expansions since 2008, encouraging big fleets and discouraging small gangs interested in shooting big fleets. "They often already make no target selection decisions but only follow broadcast from FC".You joined a big fleet. That you don't broadcast is the true strength of a drone-concept in this day and age, since in big fleets, fleets are littered with spies and with a "trigger" the hostile side won't know your primaries (as they shouldn't). "it is fair to say those fleets tend to be less interesting game experience for your average grunt".You joined a big fleet. It's a less interesting game experience being a "grunt". "Second problem is perfect alpha and how it balances with remote reps".You joined a big fleet. Alpha is an issue in any big fleet as damage scales with numbers while tank do not. "Thing with remote reps is they /are/ very binary, they either can save whole fleet, or if enemy has sufficient alpha".You joined a big fleet. The scaling of alpha that makes RR "binary" is only a problem in big fleets. So... what you're saying is that CCP should look into ways to better balance numbers and big fleets? I wholeheartedly agree! . All of the issues you mentioned are better adressed by looking at fleets and scaling of pilots than by looking at drones. Already stale big fleets will not be made better if we remove one option at a time until there are only LR-L turrets left. In short, adress fleet scaling, not drone-functions that are also used outside of big fleets.
And yet, those complaining about sentry drones will miss your point completely just to see something else in the game nerfed. Addressing the mechanics of fleets will resolve a lot issue players have with blobs and coalitionsGǪ |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
229
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 11:07:00 -
[63] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:"Additional advantages are free high slots that can be loaded with neutralisers /.../ remoter reps or other utilities".It's a Drone-boat. It has utility highs, other boats have ... utility drones. "First is reduced significance of line fleet members"You joined a big fleet. Any big fleet has a massively reduced significance of "line" members. "They already do not pilot their ships but instead are just anchored, or aligned to celestial as instructed by FC"You joined a big fleet. Mobility has been reduced directly and indirectly in a series of expansions since 2008, encouraging big fleets and discouraging small gangs interested in shooting big fleets. "They often already make no target selection decisions but only follow broadcast from FC".You joined a big fleet. That you don't broadcast is the true strength of a drone-concept in this day and age, since in big fleets, fleets are littered with spies and with a "trigger" the hostile side won't know your primaries (as they shouldn't). "it is fair to say those fleets tend to be less interesting game experience for your average grunt".You joined a big fleet. It's a less interesting game experience being a "grunt". "Second problem is perfect alpha and how it balances with remote reps".You joined a big fleet. Alpha is an issue in any big fleet as damage scales with numbers while tank do not. "Thing with remote reps is they /are/ very binary, they either can save whole fleet, or if enemy has sufficient alpha".You joined a big fleet. The scaling of alpha that makes RR "binary" is only a problem in big fleets. So... what you're saying is that CCP should look into ways to better balance numbers and big fleets? I wholeheartedly agree! . All of the issues you mentioned are better adressed by looking at fleets and scaling of pilots than by looking at drones. Already stale big fleets will not be made better if we remove one option at a time until there are only LR-L turrets left. In short, adress fleet scaling, not drone-functions that are also used outside of big fleets.
Sure blobbing and effects of blobbing are major problem but to say that is the reason problems around sentry assistance mechanics should be ignored is same as saying we should stay in deep part of cesspool because even in shallow part we'll be up to our waist in ****. Call it radical thinking but being up to a waist in diarrhoea is still better then being up to a neck in it.
Sentry drone assistance mechanics compound on blobbing effects, making them worse, and making bad situation worse is reason enough to see if something can or should be done with them.
Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Ciyrine
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2013.07.05 19:36:00 -
[64] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Ciyrine wrote:If i assign my sentries to someone with fast lock time can thr drones fire at targets that are outside my targeting range? as long as theyre within drone control range you're fine.
So the target has to be within my drone control range even when assigned |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
451
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Posted - 2013.07.05 20:06:00 -
[65] - Quote
yes indeed. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
724
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Posted - 2013.07.06 09:06:00 -
[66] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:..So if you'd introduce a penalty, it should be stacked, for example 1% optimal/tracking/speed penalty for every X drones that assist the target caller...
Because adding to the computational side of things is a good idea to solve blob specific issues 
The solution is already in game in the way fighters are assigned with a hard limit based on assignee's drone skill .. adopt same for combat drones but with a x5 modifier (ie. can direct 25 'foreign' drones at once).
Word of caution though; It will not solve your issue, merely add to drone blobs micromanagement and in time make your problem even worse as overkill is more easily avoided with smaller fire teams .. so instead of the drone blob taking out one ship at a time with a massive damage overflow you'll have 2-3 ships dropping at a time.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Fatal Ascension
292
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Posted - 2013.07.06 15:54:00 -
[67] - Quote
Ciyrine wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:Ciyrine wrote:If i assign my sentries to someone with fast lock time can thr drones fire at targets that are outside my targeting range? as long as theyre within drone control range you're fine. So the target has to be within my drone control range even when assigned
Yes between target and ownship, doesn't really matter were the trigger is, if he can lock and attack
Not to mention drone based fleets are pretty easy to kill of you have a couple a BSs with smartbombs, most BSs can only carry at most 4 flights of sentries, so if you can keep smartbombers in the middle of them or a good string of bomb runs you can basically neuter a drome based fleet.
.....of course if you are talking archons, that is another matter, but either way, drone fleets aren't an issue. |
Noisrevbus
461
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Posted - 2013.07.10 03:37:00 -
[68] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Sure blobbing and effects of blobbing are major problem but to say that is the reason problems around sentry assistance mechanics should be ignored is same as saying we should stay in deep part of cesspool because even in shallow part we'll be up to our waist in ****. Call it radical thinking but being up to a waist in diarrhoea is still better then being up to a neck in it.
Sentry drone assistance mechanics compounds on blobbing effects, making them worse, and making bad situation worse is reason enough to see if something can or should be done with them.
Like the poster above you said, you completely missed the point.
There is no problem with drone-assist mechanics.
They have been around since ... forever.
You only see a problem with them now in a specific setting because they have been made popular there for the past two years and you just caught on.
The advantage is not that you can effectively manage focused fire. There are other systems (Artillery) which is far more effective at concerted fire and volley damage. Anyone who is not completely terrible at following commands or solely play in an environment where the environment superseed player action should be able to effectively lay down focused fire as easily or better with turrets than with drones (since assigning still come with a number of mechanical issues, as everything else... nothing is perfect even in spite of you just reaching the conclusion that the grass is greener).
The advantage is keeping your targets off coms and broadcasts, which is a meta-advantage that exist due to the stale environment in which you fight (where you sit still and everyone rely on the commands and actions of one player anyway; so any "grunt boredom" you attribute to drone-assigns equally exist with any other weapon system in that environment). That you push F1 once every 30-60 seconds does not change that fact.
One could even argue that drone-assists are more interactive, since players in those ships tend to manage their drones defensively, create cap chains and help out with the RR-effort while the trigger is firing off their drones. Compared to someone sitting still and pushing F1 nce every 30-60 seconds and waiting for new primaries, they are actually performing more actions in the game with their drones.
The problem is not the drone-assist mechanics, it's the environment in which you play.
Outside of that environment the drone-assist mechanics do not come with the "issues" you propose.
That means they don't "compound on blobbing effects" in the manner you presume.
Your "issues" are mostly not even due to the drone-mechanics, but directly derive from the environment anyway.
If I am not in a large gang under that meta, facing that lag or in that TiDi - your problem does not exist.
If I am not sitting still and trying to slug it out with a larger ship on it's premises - the problem does not exist.
If you want to have more fun, you should support a change to the paradigm of 200+ fleets sitting still on a single grid and slugging it out in 10% TiDi in ships that cost nothing to replace, over starbases that cost nothing to replace.
The win-win situation would be CCP renegging on their current direction and going back to making ingame resources (ISK) and mobility competetive factors again. They used to be just that. |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime
Kraken.
601
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Posted - 2013.07.10 10:41:00 -
[69] - Quote
I've been in a sentry fleet. It worked pretty well but enemy bombers slowly whittled away the drones until we ran out and had to disengage.
Mind you this was by no means a coordinated bombing effort either. Just one bomb here and there.
Had they used a coordinated fleet of three to five bombers then we would have been out of drones after the first few runs.
We miss you Saede.
In-depth guide on how to safely mine in High Sec |
Kozlack
Ordo Drakonis
Nulli Secunda
4
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Posted - 2013.07.10 12:52:00 -
[70] - Quote
I'd have to say that the super powered Tech 1 crusiers are a little bit more of a concern then sentry drones.... It's not like a Domi can drop 15 drones anymore anyway... So stop being bad and l2Counter
On vaction from hawk-eyeing local..... in empire |
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Evangelina Nolen
Sama Guild
30
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Posted - 2013.07.11 05:40:00 -
[71] - Quote
figure out who's assigning the drones. If only one or a few people seem to be targetting the primaries, ECM/Primary their boats. |
Rain6638
Team Evil
559
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Posted - 2013.07.21 00:38:00 -
[72] - Quote
I'm in a scimitar and I can't assist with a warden II--right-click menu screenshot
am I missing something? (we can't assist with sentries anymore?)
I'm testing (well, attempting to test) whether I can assist with a drone outside of targeting range, but within control range (with 2 link augs)
targeting range is 74km, aggressor is at 90km, drone control range is 108km. seeing if my sentry will engage aggressor while set to assist.
wtf i can't assist with regular drones either
[ 2013.06.21 09:52:05 ] (notify) For initiating combat your security status has been adjusted by -0.1337
yo dawg, we heard you liek industrials, so we put an industrial in yo industrial so you can loss while u loss |
DSpite Culhach
Corp 54
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
138
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Posted - 2013.07.21 06:24:00 -
[73] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:I donGÇÖt have any problems with sentry drones, my problem is mechanic that allows single player to simultaneously and perfectly control fire from hundreds of drones. Fleet of 250 ships, each with 5 drones, and FC can perfectly concentrate fire of over twelve hundred drones while remaining 249 people in fleet are picking their nose, or eating lunch, or whatever...
Is that good game design?
I still would not care if this "fire coordination" was extended to normal guns. Ships that can fly through space? Warp millions of AU's? Fire beams of energy across the distances of two major cities on earth?
Having computer assisted, coordinated fire-control seems like a minor issue. If you can light up a red light bulb on a console on another ship that sais "when this button turns red, press your fire button" (broadcasts), seem rather logical someone would go "hmmm ... what If I use this lead and just tie it from the light to the fire button.
In EVE, until a ship is totally dead, it will usually function at 99% capacity, hence, 5 ships in 50% hull hurt just as much as 5 ships in 100% shield/armor/hull, so 4 Live ships hurt less then 5 almost dead ships, hence this "primary it until it dies"
What if mechanics were added to cripple a ship? what if a single smartbomb ship could land in the middle of 5 ships, and managed 4 blasts before death, but damaged/killed a bunch of guns, and suddenly, each of those 5 ships lost 20% overall weapon functionality? It would be as if you had killed an entire ship worth of DPS.
If you played old pen-and-paper games like DnD you would usually primary a target until dead, as a Troll on 1 HP hits just as hard as a Troll on 200 HP. If you played Rolemaster however, crippling strikes, bleeding and stuns from those horribly nasty Critical Tables could suddenly turn the tide; or take look at Mechwarrior and it's damage system, where a clever or skillful pilot can basically neutralize a mech with a few surgically accurate strikes to it's weapon systems.
We are stuck with what we have in EVE atm, so we use what we have. Hence the blobs, the alpha strikes and so on. I "see" a problem, but it won't go away until we have ships systems that can be targeted/repaired individually like in many other games.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships.
I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
xPredat0rz
Grey Templars
Fidelas Constans
52
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Posted - 2013.07.21 08:53:00 -
[74] - Quote
Sentry Boats are the current flavor of the month doctrines. (Yes they were used before i know)
We have already proved multiple ways to counter them:
1. Bomb them. You can kill/cripple most of their fleet.
2. Ewar the **** out of their FCs thus nuetralizing the entire fleets dps.
3. Engaging them with long range weaponary.
4. Drop Blap Dreads on them.
Thats 4 very easy hard counters to the domi/geddon/prophecy/vexor fleets.
Hell we have even killed Boot Carriers(Slow Cats) under reps which in theory should be nearly impossible. You should be cap chaining meaning 2-3 people have you locked. Granted the fleet comp works better with nothing but archons and tanks more.
So no I do not think its completely overpowered to be able to assist 1k sentries. They dont track perfectly.
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The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2013.07.21 10:03:00 -
[75] - Quote
Some insight:
The basic "why it works" is because of human error. In a regular fleet of 100 members, over half are not shooting properly at primaries anyhow.
Sentry assist functions best in mid sized ~150-200 groups of sentries. This way the multiple target callers will efficiently apply enough instant DPS to kill targets before logistics can check in. This is not usually optimally used in big fleets.
"Target by range and just kill everything" fleets are surfacing again, because of target calling focus limitations. Megathrons can plow through anything if in good numbers and people are let to make their target calls in small units without focusing on arbitrary target calls.
Next in line logically is the hybrid: typhoon. Spew missiles with massive dps randomly to apply pressure, target callers pop weakened targets with sentries. |
Trinkets friend
T.R.I.A.D
1052
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 12:56:00 -
[76] - Quote
The problem of assigning your ability to have fun over to an FC (which is the OP's actual problem) is actually encountered when you join a nullsec blob corp/alliance.
Regarding bombing off sentries - this won't work when people figure out how to assign 'recall drones' to F12 nd can do it literally the moment they see a bomb on overview.
The Fat Cat doctrine of FW is a miniaturised version of this; there are counters.
Countering the latest TSB Domi fit with alpha fleets isn't the way. You are fighting against the whole damn idea of the TSB by locking up the domis and trying to alpha them. Much better to go free fire and overwhelm their logis with broadcasts and force them to scatter.
This doctrine would actually be harder to counter with mobile sentry snipers, oldendays style, eg; ishtars with 80km drone control ranges. You can drop your drones spread out, and fly around the place, meaning no one can bomb you and your sentries.
IMHO, the mechanic is fine - its amazing that people would decide that assigning away all interaction is fun. Its a problem with the culture of the game versus game mechanics.
Indigently pwning indifferently. Some sucker buy me a Naglfar.
http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Termy Rockling
EVE University
Ivy League
60
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Posted - 2013.07.21 15:12:00 -
[77] - Quote
The issue here wasnt the drones, but possibility of 1 guy firing for whole fleet. Remove assigning drones or somethin |
Nazowa
UK Corp
RAZOR Alliance
14
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Posted - 2013.07.23 08:15:00 -
[78] - Quote
No to anything that allows one player to act on behalf of 250 other players. That is a very broken mechanic and should be taken out of the game. Fleet fights are already boring as it is. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence
66
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 13:21:00 -
[79] - Quote
Termy Rockling wrote:...but sentries are almost op atm both in pve and pvp since the range / tracking changes.
That's a ship "issue", not a drone issue. Freeing up 3 mids since no Omni's are needed (at normal ranges) is one hell of a buff TBH.
The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
166
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Posted - 2013.07.23 13:24:00 -
[80] - Quote
Kill the FC who is commanding all the dornes? |
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Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence
67
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Posted - 2013.07.23 13:25:00 -
[81] - Quote
Nazowa wrote:No to anything that allows one player to act on behalf of 250 other players. That is a very broken mechanic and should be taken out of the game. Fleet fights are already boring as it is.
On a small-scale level, it really isn't an issue but I can see your point on a 250 man fleet. Perhaps rather than eliminating the drone assist altogether, what if there was a ship specific, skill dependent, or fixed game limitation on the amount of drone bandwidth a player can have assisted to them? Surely it wouldn't be a stretch to the "lore" so to speak as clearly the drones are interfacing with the assisted ship at some level, and therefore a limit would be feasible.
Drone Bunny V - Allows up to 625 Mbit/sec Drone Assist bandwidth
You can see where i am going with this...
The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Nazowa
UK Corp
RAZOR Alliance
14
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Posted - 2013.07.23 14:24:00 -
[82] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:Nazowa wrote:No to anything that allows one player to act on behalf of 250 other players. That is a very broken mechanic and should be taken out of the game. Fleet fights are already boring as it is. On a small-scale level, it really isn't an issue but I can see your point on a 250 man fleet. Perhaps rather than eliminating the drone assist altogether, what if there was a ship specific, skill dependent, or fixed game limitation on the amount of drone bandwidth a player can have assisted to them? Surely it wouldn't be a stretch to the "lore" so to speak as clearly the drones are interfacing with the assisted ship at some level, and therefore a limit would be feasible. Drone Bunny V - Allows up to 625 Mbit/sec Drone Assist bandwidth You can see where i am going with this...
What you are saying is perfectly fine for me. That wouldn't break the mechanic completely yet will include a limitation. Make it a skill and a module at the same time if you like so you can have people create dedicated characters for this which the enemy might spy and shoot just like they doing for FC's. In it is current state however it is completely broken and it encourages 250 sheep following a shepherd mentality even further as if we don't have too much of that already. |
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc.
Bulgarian Space Federation
30
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Posted - 2013.07.24 03:49:00 -
[83] - Quote
MJD a disco phoon in the middle of the fleet kill sentries... profit
or bombing runs. even if they scoop their drones you still profit since they're not shooting |
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