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Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
226
   |
Posted - 2013.07.02 18:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
During last year we see increasing proliferation of sentry based fleet doctrines ranging in size form Vexors all the way up to slowcat blobs.
Main advantage of those sentry based ships is perfect alpha completely controlled by FC without any input from rest of the fleet pilots, other then assigning drones to FC. Additional advantages are free high slots that can be loaded with neutralisers, smartboms, remoter reps or other utilities. Drawback is reduced mobility after drones are deployed, and potential of losing drones (take note both are mostly insignificant for slowcats as they have bad mobility anyway, and enormous drone bay easily holds sufficient number of replacement drones)
I can see 2 potential problems in overall metagame and balance of those fleet doctrines.
First is reduced significance of line fleet members. Typically they already do not pilot their ships but instead are just anchored, or aligned to celestial as instructed by FC. They often already make no target selection decisions but only follow broadcast from FC. Problem is sentry ships additionally reduce even those two limited activities by line members. Ships in those fleets mostly stand still and often have no target broadcasts to follow or DPS to apply on their own. Depending on what is in highs slots they might or might not have something to do, but mostly it is fair to say those fleets tend to be less interesting game experience for your average grunt
Second problem is perfect alpha and how it balances with remote reps. Thing with remote reps is they tend to be very binary, they either can save whole fleet, or if enemy has sufficient alpha, or just row DPS, they can become completely irrelevant. What perfect alpha of assigned drones does in this game of DPS/alpha/reps might be problematic.
So my question is do drone assistance mechanic need rebalancing, and do you find sentry drone based fleet as fun as other types of fleet?
Feedback form Ytterbium, Fozz and Rise and is also welcome, if they have any.
Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Delucian
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
44
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 18:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dont break what finally works very well!  |
Caerfinon
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
78
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 18:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Before nerfing sentry drones, are there any fleet tactics to counter them? Perhaps a role for a wing or squad to specifically hunt down and eliminate sentry drones may counter their effectiveness. Or some, as yet undiscovered, type of doctrine may expose a weakness in the sentry drone doctrine.
The nice part about the sandbox is that you can try to adapt to what the other guys are doing. I just think that this trail should be exhausted before bringing out the nerf bat.
Cheers
C. |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
226
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 18:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
I donGÇÖt have any problems with sentry drones, my problem is mechanic that allows single player to simultaneously and perfectly control fire from hundreds of drones. Fleet of 250 ships, each with 5 drones, and FC can perfectly concentrate fire of over twelve hundred drones while remaining 249 people in fleet are picking their nose, or eating lunch, or whatever...
Is that good game design?
Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Whitehound
1497
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 19:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bring a larger fleet.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Hakaimono
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly
170
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 19:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Find an FC who knows how to counter that. |
Delucian
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
45
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 19:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Close proximity drones - smartbomb them to hell
Sentrys - counter snipe them |
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
309
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 19:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
What about firing range? I think warden has range of 90 km? (optimal + falloff). How far can that be increased?
Life is short and dinner time is chancy
Eat dessert first! |
Tenchi Sal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
162
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 19:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
considering how useless other drones are, its nice to see useful drones for a change. i recently started doing lvl 4 missions, the first ones i've done after the big drone nerf. losing ogre II left and right and having to go restock over and over again is giving me a headache. i've already started training missiles now. i've also been considering training sentry drones since you can scoop them up when the npcs start focus firing on them. sentry drones seems to be the gallente's last hope considering they suck at everything else that doesnt involve suicide ganking. |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
430
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 19:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:Main advantage of those sentry based ships is perfect alpha completely controlled by FC without any input from rest of the fleet pilots, other then assigning drones to FC.
pressing F1 (or whatever desired keybind is) requires more thought and deep tactical play than just assigning drones  ?
Null warfare is just one person controlling the masses, sentries just remove one small insignificant step from other types of doctrines.
Reps also need time to hit, in the case of most fleets where armour is dominant, this means lock time+rr cycle time which is at the very least 5 seconds. If your fleet members take 5 seconds to click the correct target and press F1 then I do apologise, but there's no hope for that fleet in the first place. |
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Delucian
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
45
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 19:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
It sounds like your fleet is too composed of a given type of ship/type (be they armor or shield). There are different tactics that should be employed in a drone rich environment, part of which should be your own drone wing. Utilizing tactics that do not allow the other fleet to engage the central blob without suffering greater damage from snipers and your drone wing (s).
Once damage projection shifts the the tactic shifts to centralize damage either onto the swarm or onto the main fleet.
Seems more like a tactical issue TBH.
.... course I am a self-accepted sucky FC. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
154
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 20:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Suicide bomb sentry drones maybe?
[Wolf, SB]
Power Diagnostic System II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
1MN Microwarpdrive II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Graviton Smartbomb II
Small Graviton Smartbomb II
Small Graviton Smartbomb II
Small Graviton Smartbomb II
Small Graviton Smartbomb II
Small Anti-Explosive Pump II
Small Anti-Kinetic Pump II
|
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
430
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 20:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Shereza wrote:Suicide bomb sentry drones maybe?
[Wolf, SB]
Power Diagnostic System II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
1MN Microwarpdrive II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Graviton Smartbomb II
Small Graviton Smartbomb II
Small Graviton Smartbomb II
Small Graviton Smartbomb II
Small Graviton Smartbomb II
Small Anti-Explosive Pump II
Small Anti-Kinetic Pump II
if you are going to do that you might as well brick tank a bunch of domis, stick MJD on them and send them with large bombs into them. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
279
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 22:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Caleidascope wrote:What about firing range? I think warden has range of 90 km? (optimal + falloff). How far can that be increased?
on a dominix you can get 90km optimal with garde IIs and those are the short range sentries. 73km looks to be the max range on a geddon (3 omni, 3 drone scope chips)
as for discos: I'd use a phoon, gotta go with a ship that has 8 highslots.
You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
431
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 23:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
oh yeah forgot phoon was cheap now as well. |
Grandma Squirel
Squirel Enterprises
28
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 23:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
The only version that is particularly hard to counter is the slowcat version, and that is tied into the entire cap balance issue.
The drones tie you down, and are an easy bomb target. Your also vulnerable to high dps enemies coming inclose. Not only do they do more damage, but fighting on top of your sentries really messes with the tracking. Even with the giant Domi drone bay, you get to reposition 2 times and then your out of dps... |
vyshnegradsky
Pompeii Syndicate
No Safe Haven
107
|
Posted - 2013.07.02 23:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bomb them. And if they simply recall their drones then hey, they still aren't shooting you.
This one's a bit over the edge guys.
Locked for breaking... well, pretty much all the rules.
- CCP Falcon |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
431
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 00:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Grandma Squirel wrote:The only version that is particularly hard to counter is the slowcat version, and that is tied into the entire cap balance issue.
The drones tie you down, and are an easy bomb target. Your also vulnerable to high dps enemies coming inclose. Not only do they do more damage, but fighting on top of your sentries really messes with the tracking. Even with the giant Domi drone bay, you get to reposition 2 times and then your out of dps...
gardes track better than any battleship sized weapon already
and you recall drones before moving, i thought that was obvious. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
206
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 00:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
Think some of you are missing the point OP is trying to make. It's not about sentry drones. He's pretty much just complaining about drones being able to be assigned. And it actually is a legit point.
The sentry drone doctrine does remove a certain amount of the "incompetence factor" of fleet members. Players in the fleet don't have to target, don't have to manage their weapons, don't really have to do anything. They can go into the other room, make a sandwich, catch up on whatever game is playing, and poke their head in every so often to see if the FC won the fight or not. Yes, that's a bit of an exaggeration. But it still doesn't require much input from the fleet member. He can do plenty of other things while "fighting". Like for instance, manage the other Slowcats he has running in the fleet.
It is a style of gameplay that heavily favors alts. And correspondingly favors folks who can afford multiple accounts. Which unfortunately does seem a bit like pay-to-win. Is that good or bad? Not sure. Money doth have it's privileges, and multiboxers do contribute more to CCPs bottom-line than the solo account player. But then again, some believe that the game should be about skill and not how much money you can throw at it (the typical complaint of the poor). |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate
Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1169
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 00:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
It's not hard to counter, it's just ppl aren't willing to fly the counter fit. Would you want to be part of the zerg fleet full of smartbombs? Hmm... actually, that sounds like fun...
In any case, countering takes effort, it's easier to just whine and have it nerfed.
Standings Improvement Service
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
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Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2077
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 00:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
A few bombers make the mean sentries go away. |
Dato Koppla
Veni Vidi Evassi
The Barking Nexus Chommy Alliance
273
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 01:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:A few bombers make the mean sentries go away.
This, T2 Sentries are not cheap and a well placed bomber squad can pretty much wipe the field of all your dps instantly. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
206
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 05:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote: This, T2 Sentries are not cheap and a well placed bomber squad can pretty much wipe the field of all your dps instantly. If only I had put more than one flight of Sentry drones in my Archon! Dammit!
(And you guys are still completely missing the point the OP was trying to make.)
|
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries
Gentlemen's Agreement
68
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 06:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Dato Koppla wrote: This, T2 Sentries are not cheap and a well placed bomber squad can pretty much wipe the field of all your dps instantly. If only I had put more than one flight of Sentry drones in my Archon! Dammit! (And you guys are still completely missing the point the OP was trying to make.)
People being obtuse aside, the fact that a couple counters of various degree make the point (largely) moot.
Who cares if the grunts are there to push F1 or the FC can do it for them? Who cares if that then allows for multi box fleets?
If the complaint is that the fleet style is boring and minimally interactive, then the op needs to go join fw as all major fleets tend to be boring.
If the complaint is that there are too many ships per player, then it becomes the usual troll about "suck it up princess"
The only point (in my opinion) with some room for debate is the one about perfect alpha. And really it isn't that much different than the mumble order to primary by any other fleet is it? But as others pointed out your logi either catches the damage or not. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years
Shinjiketo
3078
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 06:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:A few bombers make the mean sentries go away.
You need a continuous stream of bombers, few bombers are totally irrelevant and Domis don't even need to pull sentries.
If the sentry fleet is smart enough to have a fast locker with them, they one-shot your bombers as soon as they decloak.
If you are going to use bombers, why not do it right and try to actually kill the Domis and not just their drones.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
923
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 10:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Hakaimono wrote:Find an FC who knows how to counter that.
This.
->Bomber runs
->Suicide SM BS (not a good choice but sometimes is good enough)
->Doom Portal
Many others are possible and cooking untill someone start using them, succeeding and make them cry, just like the pretended so awesome stupid 200K EHP 700dps Tengus at....25km (with top skills and rage)-now those are not being replaced while just by reducing slightly the amount or EHP the same ship could do 600dps at over 55km...well 250dps caracals are better indeed.
Not a new tactic, it's rather a very old one and has its counters
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
Aeterna Anima
102
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 10:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
Couple the already given benefits with the fact that said sentry Dominix is pretty much the only ship type that can make decent use of the target spectrum breaker (as seen in the latest doctrines) for the simple fact that due to the 'assist' command, those ships only need to be on grid but not be able to target something and you have an extremely strong fleet concept, quite possibly too strong.
At the same time, that very doctrine is a hard counter to the use of TSBs, since only the drone director actually needs to lock a target.
I'm too inexperienced regarding the use of bombers, but I'd think that if the sentries were not assisting a single drone director but instead a couple of fast locking ships, the doctrine should be pretty lethal for bomber fleets as well. |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
1376
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 16:23:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:I donGÇÖt have any problems with sentry drones, my problem is mechanic that allows single player to simultaneously and perfectly control fire from hundreds of drones. Fleet of 250 ships, each with 5 drones, and FC can perfectly concentrate fire of over twelve hundred drones while remaining 249 people in fleet are picking their nose, or eating lunch, or whatever...
Is that good game design?
I have a problem with people being able to shoot me from 75-100k out... it's just not fair! They should go toe-to-toe with me, damn it!!
Is that good game design?!?!?!? I say NO! Nerf everything that can shoot me from more than 500m out!!
"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Ciyrine
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 17:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
If i assign my sentries to someone with fast lock time can thr drones fire at targets that are outside my targeting range? |
Whitehound
1500
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 17:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:(And you guys are still completely missing the point the OP was trying to make.)
Oh, I think most get the "point", but they are only not paying any attention to it. And why would we? It is the same "point" we get to see all the time, made by a few mental kids who want to tell others how to play the game so they can have fun, because otherwise their brain implodes.
It starts with imagining how the ship they are shooting is a person and that they are shooting the person. Then they make rules what that person may and may not use and whine about how this or that becomes unfair to them based on their associations.
So others now must sit inside a ship and must not use sentries, because they would have to shoot sentries in order to win when really they wanted to shoot the person, and so how can they shoot the person?!
Naturally, and because of the way their brains are build, will these implode on facing such a dilemma. So they go complaining on the Internet, hoping someone will fix their dilemma and also bring them cookies and milk.
If you are looking pretty sharp at the monitor right now, know there will not be any cookies or milk.
Must of the time do we not pay attention to it at all and all these points and whines zip through the Internet, flashing before our eyes, without ever reaching the soul.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
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Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
436
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Posted - 2013.07.03 17:20:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ciyrine wrote:If i assign my sentries to someone with fast lock time can thr drones fire at targets that are outside my targeting range?
as long as theyre within drone control range you're fine. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10514
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 17:25:00 -
[32] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:During las1t year we see increasing proliferation of sentry based fleet doctrines ranging in size form Vexors all the way up to slowcat blobs....
You'll perhaps be pleased to know that the CSM discussed this exact topic with CCP today.
1 Kings 12:11
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10514
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 17:26:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:A few bombers make the mean sentries go away.
Not really; sentries can be pulled instantly, and carriers can have unfeasible quantities of them in their drone bays
1 Kings 12:11
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Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
245
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 17:43:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:A few bombers make the mean sentries go away.
Not easily. Most of the sentry fleets will starburst and drop. They're actually quite robust around bombers.
Their really big weakness is intel and mobility. If you know who has control then they are easily taken off the field (if not you should run anyway) at which point you have a 15-20 second window where the enemy fleet isn't shooting at all while they get reorganized. If you also know who their secondary FC is then you really only have to kill 2 or 3 people in their fleet to throw the whole doctrine into chaos. Even though a lot of people CAN FC a fleet if they want to they won't step up in a fleet where the FC, the secondary and the tertiary callers have all been taken down early.... Few people suddenly grow a pair when that's happening.
The other weakness is mobility. They're vulnerable for hit and run tactics becasue they can't follow. In that sense bombers do make sense. Even if they aren't the answer to sentries if the fleet is properly run, they are good hit and run weapons. Alpha snipers also do well as do any sniper ships that can kite out of the 100km range. Basically sentry doctrine is akin to trench warfare so as long as you don't join thyem in the trenches you can work around it.
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Whitehound
1500
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 17:45:00 -
[35] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:You'll perhaps be pleased to know that the CSM discussed this exact topic with CCP today.
If you want to please your voters will you have to get results and not only show that you were trying. Any news on the outcome would be interesting. If it was only for the discussion could one pick up the phone, dial C-C-P and have a dog breath into the phone.
Anything more specific than "we talked" would be nice.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
227
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 17:52:00 -
[36] - Quote
Thanks for the feedback Malcanis. I'm glad IGÇÖm not the only one that thinks drone assistance mechanic deserves some attention.
At this point I myself am not sure what change, if any, should be made but I definitely think this mechanic deserves some open debate, so I started this thread. Sadly most of the responses were either trolling or misguided mockery. 
Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10514
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 18:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Malcanis wrote:You'll perhaps be pleased to know that the CSM discussed this exact topic with CCP today. If you want to please your voters will you have to get results and not only show that you were trying. Any news on the outcome would be interesting. If it was only for the discussion could one pick up the phone, dial C-C-P and have a dog breath into the phone. Anything more specific than "we talked" would be nice.
Dude you know we can't say "we discussed hurbleburbles with CCP and the devs agreed that they're grossly under/overpowered and are gonna be fixed next month"
All we can do is represent issues to CCP, advocate a position as best we can, and wait for the results to be announced.
1 Kings 12:11
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10514
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 18:02:00 -
[38] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:Thanks for the feedback Malcanis. I'm glad IGÇÖm not the only one that thinks drone assistance mechanic deserves some attention. At this point I myself am not sure what change, if any, should be made but I definitely think this mechanic deserves some open debate, so I started this thread. Sadly most of the responses were either trolling or misguided mockery.
Actually Mynnna raised the topic.
1 Kings 12:11
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Whitehound
1500
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 18:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Dude you know we can't say "we discussed hurbleburbles with CCP and the devs agreed that they're grossly under/overpowered and are gonna be fixed next month"
Why not? Did they not say anything to you in return?
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
227
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 18:15:00 -
[40] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Malcanis wrote:Dude you know we can't say "we discussed hurbleburbles with CCP and the devs agreed that they're grossly under/overpowered and are gonna be fixed next month" Why not? Did they not say anything to you in return?
Ever head of NDA?
Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
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Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
246
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Posted - 2013.07.03 18:18:00 -
[41] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Malcanis wrote:Dude you know we can't say "we discussed hurbleburbles with CCP and the devs agreed that they're grossly under/overpowered and are gonna be fixed next month" Why not? Did they not say anything to you in return?
Well it should be obvious. Every second EVE online player has asperger syndrome and if there is one thing you need to do with aspergers is manage expectations.
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Whitehound
1500
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Posted - 2013.07.03 19:47:00 -
[42] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:Whitehound wrote:Malcanis wrote:Dude you know we can't say "we discussed hurbleburbles with CCP and the devs agreed that they're grossly under/overpowered and are gonna be fixed next month" Why not? Did they not say anything to you in return? Ever head of NDA?
It is not the point. One can say more than just "we talked." but give an indication such as "We talk about XY and how it is bad, and it went surprisingly good." Or one can say "..., and found resistance."
Let me remind you that the discussion is with people who not only make the game, but who know the game, who love it and play it or have been playing it, and it should be pretty easy to get their position on a topic without making it into a poker table.
If this is not within the powers of the CSM then the CSM is not more than a human teleprompter who is reading the forums to CCP. And frankly would this have little to do with an actual discussion.
So, a little bit more than "we discussed it" would be nice. It is not like Slowcats were invented just yesterday and CCP did not know about it already.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10517
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 20:22:00 -
[43] - Quote
I don't care to try IAs patience by trying to devise hints.
1 Kings 12:11
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Whitehound
1500
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Posted - 2013.07.03 20:27:00 -
[44] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I don't care to try IAs patience by trying to devise hints.
Then I just thank you for reading the forums to CCP. A job well done! We are proud of you.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
237
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 21:38:00 -
[45] - Quote
Hit sentries with a 50% tracking nerf only while assigned. Call it latency. Problem solved. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10522
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 09:31:00 -
[46] - Quote
Ciyrine wrote:If i assign my sentries to someone with fast lock time can thr drones fire at targets that are outside my targeting range?
yes, providing that it's inside your drone control range (and inside the range of the drones themselves, of course)
1 Kings 12:11
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10522
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 09:33:00 -
[47] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Malcanis wrote:I don't care to try IAs patience by trying to devise hints. Then I just thank you for reading the forums to CCP. A job well done! We are proud of you.
Your problem is not with me but with your misconception about what the CSM does.
If you think all the CSM does is link forum posts to CCP, then by all means run for election next year and find out for yourself.
1 Kings 12:11
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Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
Aeterna Anima
102
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 09:51:00 -
[48] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote: Alpha snipers also do well
Not with TSB's running.
Did you even look at the latest incarnation of N3 domis? |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
348
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 10:06:00 -
[49] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Actually Mynnna raised the topic.
Why am I not surprised?
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Did you even look at the latest incarnation of N3 domis?
These? |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
Aeterna Anima
102
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 10:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:Hit sentries with a 50% tracking nerf only while assigned. Call it latency. Problem solved.
Other problems generated. A few drones on assist (we should avoid assign, as that is used for fighters and completely different) is working as intended, specifically in a game that promotes multiaccounting.
1000 sentries on assist are a problem.
So if you'd introduce a penalty, it should be stacked, for example 1% optimal/tracking/speed penalty for every X drones that assist the target caller.
A fix to the target spectrum breaker advantage on drone boats could be, if it auto-abandons drones whenever it successfully breaks a lock on your ship. At least that way some action (reconnect to lost drones) would be required by the pilot now and then.
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Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
Aeterna Anima
102
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 10:10:00 -
[51] - Quote
Exactly.
No alpha sniping involved in those kills :). |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10522
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 10:28:00 -
[52] - Quote
The CSM's favoured change to assigning drones is to limit assigning to squad members.
1 Kings 12:11
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Whitehound
1502
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 10:31:00 -
[53] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:If you think all the CSM does is link forum posts to CCP, then by all means run for election next year and find out for yourself.
I did not say you linked them - I said you read them to CCP!
Do you misquote a lot?? 
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
118
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 10:41:00 -
[54] - Quote
I always thought the issue was the slowcat itself, and that it cannot be easily overwhelmed by dps alone.
About sentries in general: The assignment of drones to a targetcaller really solves a lot of organization-issues right away :)
I only correct my own spelling. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years
Shinjiketo
3080
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 10:42:00 -
[55] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:The CSM's favoured change to assigning drones is to limit assigning to squad members.
Very sensible suggestion.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
10523
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 10:52:00 -
[56] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Malcanis wrote:If you think all the CSM does is link forum posts to CCP, then by all means run for election next year and find out for yourself. I did not say you linked them - I said you read them to CCP! Do you misquote a lot??
So your mental image of what we do is literally reading out loud forum posts to CCP over VOIP? 
When we say "we're talking to CCP" we mean "we're in a chat channel with CCP staff". If we want to call attention to forum discussions, a link is how we do it.
1 Kings 12:11
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Whitehound
1502
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 11:00:00 -
[57] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:So your mental image of what we do is literally reading out loud forum posts to CCP over VOIP? When we say "we're talking to CCP" we mean "we're in a chat channel with CCP staff". If we want to call attention to forum discussions, a link is how we do it.
Pretty much, yes. I imagined that you would have occasional face-to-face meetings with them, which I believe you do. But reading forums to CCP over VOIP makes a lot of sense considering how bad fanfest can smell. They would want a bit of distance.
Anyhow, do you have anything you can tell us how your proposal was received? Or is it just a "thank you" that you get for reading the information to them?
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
724
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 12:21:00 -
[58] - Quote
Sounds like a perfect way for FC's to get ahead of that which plagues fleets the most: Minions inability to follow primary calls.
About time some more varied chips were thrown on the table though, was getting a bit boring reading about the incessant artillery alpha crap.
As for CSM - CPP comms, who cares when it has no effect? It took more than two years for CCP to realise that Winmatar was broken, it took them five years to realise that FW was broken and so on .. all cases where CSM were specifically asked to present verifiable facts handed to them on a silver platter .. so is the comms broken, CSM lying through their teeth or CCP more inept than even I give them credit for?
Personally hope it is the former as the alternatives are too horrendous to contemplate
PS: I am assuming that drones get their attributes from their owner even when assigned, ie. that the assignee does not influence anything in the way of range, damage, tracking etc. .. that his only contribution is a pointing finger? If not then holy hell, nerf that **** into the ground! |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
Aeterna Anima
102
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 12:36:00 -
[59] - Quote
Again, drones are NOT assigned. Fighters are assigned, which gives a lot more control over them than just target selection.
Drones ASSIST and as such keep all of their attributes as if their owner controlled them (which he still DOES, btw. except for selecting targets). Only the targeting control is indirectly given to the assisted pilot, the drones will attack whichever target he last activated an offensive modul on.
It gets a bit more complicated with aggressive drone behaviour, but that's it in a nutshell. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
241
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 23:29:00 -
[60] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Freighdee Katt wrote:Hit sentries with a 50% tracking nerf only while assigned. Call it latency. Problem solved. Other problems generated.
It doesn't need to apply to flying drones, only sentries. Drone bunnies still work as intended.
There are good reasons to assign flying drones to another ship, so that DPS can focus on DPS and the drone bunny can put all the drones where they need to be. There are no good reasons for farming out sentries from a drone boat, unless you're going AFK. And that's the problem. It's like letting missile boats assign their launchers.
If you wants to shoot, you pushes the button. Or, if you must farm your sentries out, then you take a big hit in combat effectiveness. All they have to do is make that hit just big enough to keep drone boat captains at the wheel. Problem solved. |
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Noisrevbus
460
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 23:54:00 -
[61] - Quote
 "Additional advantages are free high slots that can be loaded with neutralisers /.../ remoter reps or other utilities".
 It's a Drone-boat. It has utility highs, other boats have ... utility drones.
"First is reduced significance of line fleet members"
You joined a big fleet. Any big fleet has a massively reduced significance of "line" members.
"They already do not pilot their ships but instead are just anchored, or aligned to celestial as instructed by FC"
You joined a big fleet. Mobility has been reduced directly and indirectly in a series of expansions since 2008, encouraging big fleets and discouraging small gangs interested in shooting big fleets.
"They often already make no target selection decisions but only follow broadcast from FC".
You joined a big fleet. That you don't broadcast is the true strength of a drone-concept in this day and age, since in big fleets, fleets are littered with spies and with a "trigger" the hostile side won't know your primaries (as they shouldn't).
"it is fair to say those fleets tend to be less interesting game experience for your average grunt".
You joined a big fleet. It's a less interesting game experience being a "grunt".
"Second problem is perfect alpha and how it balances with remote reps".
You joined a big fleet. Alpha is an issue in any big fleet as damage scales with numbers while tank do not.
"Thing with remote reps is they /are/ very binary, they either can save whole fleet, or if enemy has sufficient alpha".
You joined a big fleet. The scaling of alpha that makes RR "binary" is only a problem in big fleets.
So... what you're saying is that CCP should look into ways to better balance numbers and big fleets?
I wholeheartedly agree!  .
All of the issues you mentioned are better adressed by looking at fleets and scaling of pilots than by looking at drones.
Already stale big fleets will not be made better if we remove one option at a time until there are only LR-L turrets left.
In short, adress fleet scaling, not drone-functions that are also used outside of big fleets. |
El Gravy
Vicious Industrial
Redrum Fleet
10
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 08:23:00 -
[62] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:"Additional advantages are free high slots that can be loaded with neutralisers /.../ remoter reps or other utilities".It's a Drone-boat. It has utility highs, other boats have ... utility drones. "First is reduced significance of line fleet members"You joined a big fleet. Any big fleet has a massively reduced significance of "line" members. "They already do not pilot their ships but instead are just anchored, or aligned to celestial as instructed by FC"You joined a big fleet. Mobility has been reduced directly and indirectly in a series of expansions since 2008, encouraging big fleets and discouraging small gangs interested in shooting big fleets. "They often already make no target selection decisions but only follow broadcast from FC".You joined a big fleet. That you don't broadcast is the true strength of a drone-concept in this day and age, since in big fleets, fleets are littered with spies and with a "trigger" the hostile side won't know your primaries (as they shouldn't). "it is fair to say those fleets tend to be less interesting game experience for your average grunt".You joined a big fleet. It's a less interesting game experience being a "grunt". "Second problem is perfect alpha and how it balances with remote reps".You joined a big fleet. Alpha is an issue in any big fleet as damage scales with numbers while tank do not. "Thing with remote reps is they /are/ very binary, they either can save whole fleet, or if enemy has sufficient alpha".You joined a big fleet. The scaling of alpha that makes RR "binary" is only a problem in big fleets. So... what you're saying is that CCP should look into ways to better balance numbers and big fleets? I wholeheartedly agree! . All of the issues you mentioned are better adressed by looking at fleets and scaling of pilots than by looking at drones. Already stale big fleets will not be made better if we remove one option at a time until there are only LR-L turrets left. In short, adress fleet scaling, not drone-functions that are also used outside of big fleets.
And yet, those complaining about sentry drones will miss your point completely just to see something else in the game nerfed. Addressing the mechanics of fleets will resolve a lot issue players have with blobs and coalitionsGǪ |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
229
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 11:07:00 -
[63] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:"Additional advantages are free high slots that can be loaded with neutralisers /.../ remoter reps or other utilities".It's a Drone-boat. It has utility highs, other boats have ... utility drones. "First is reduced significance of line fleet members"You joined a big fleet. Any big fleet has a massively reduced significance of "line" members. "They already do not pilot their ships but instead are just anchored, or aligned to celestial as instructed by FC"You joined a big fleet. Mobility has been reduced directly and indirectly in a series of expansions since 2008, encouraging big fleets and discouraging small gangs interested in shooting big fleets. "They often already make no target selection decisions but only follow broadcast from FC".You joined a big fleet. That you don't broadcast is the true strength of a drone-concept in this day and age, since in big fleets, fleets are littered with spies and with a "trigger" the hostile side won't know your primaries (as they shouldn't). "it is fair to say those fleets tend to be less interesting game experience for your average grunt".You joined a big fleet. It's a less interesting game experience being a "grunt". "Second problem is perfect alpha and how it balances with remote reps".You joined a big fleet. Alpha is an issue in any big fleet as damage scales with numbers while tank do not. "Thing with remote reps is they /are/ very binary, they either can save whole fleet, or if enemy has sufficient alpha".You joined a big fleet. The scaling of alpha that makes RR "binary" is only a problem in big fleets. So... what you're saying is that CCP should look into ways to better balance numbers and big fleets? I wholeheartedly agree! . All of the issues you mentioned are better adressed by looking at fleets and scaling of pilots than by looking at drones. Already stale big fleets will not be made better if we remove one option at a time until there are only LR-L turrets left. In short, adress fleet scaling, not drone-functions that are also used outside of big fleets.
Sure blobbing and effects of blobbing are major problem but to say that is the reason problems around sentry assistance mechanics should be ignored is same as saying we should stay in deep part of cesspool because even in shallow part we'll be up to our waist in ****. Call it radical thinking but being up to a waist in diarrhoea is still better then being up to a neck in it.
Sentry drone assistance mechanics compound on blobbing effects, making them worse, and making bad situation worse is reason enough to see if something can or should be done with them.
Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Ciyrine
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2013.07.05 19:36:00 -
[64] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Ciyrine wrote:If i assign my sentries to someone with fast lock time can thr drones fire at targets that are outside my targeting range? as long as theyre within drone control range you're fine.
So the target has to be within my drone control range even when assigned |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
451
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 20:06:00 -
[65] - Quote
yes indeed. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
724
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 09:06:00 -
[66] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:..So if you'd introduce a penalty, it should be stacked, for example 1% optimal/tracking/speed penalty for every X drones that assist the target caller...
Because adding to the computational side of things is a good idea to solve blob specific issues
The solution is already in game in the way fighters are assigned with a hard limit based on assignee's drone skill .. adopt same for combat drones but with a x5 modifier (ie. can direct 25 'foreign' drones at once).
Word of caution though; It will not solve your issue, merely add to drone blobs micromanagement and in time make your problem even worse as overkill is more easily avoided with smaller fire teams .. so instead of the drone blob taking out one ship at a time with a massive damage overflow you'll have 2-3 ships dropping at a time.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Fatal Ascension
292
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 15:54:00 -
[67] - Quote
Ciyrine wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:Ciyrine wrote:If i assign my sentries to someone with fast lock time can thr drones fire at targets that are outside my targeting range? as long as theyre within drone control range you're fine. So the target has to be within my drone control range even when assigned
Yes between target and ownship, doesn't really matter were the trigger is, if he can lock and attack
Not to mention drone based fleets are pretty easy to kill of you have a couple a BSs with smartbombs, most BSs can only carry at most 4 flights of sentries, so if you can keep smartbombers in the middle of them or a good string of bomb runs you can basically neuter a drome based fleet.
.....of course if you are talking archons, that is another matter, but either way, drone fleets aren't an issue. |
Noisrevbus
461
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 03:37:00 -
[68] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Sure blobbing and effects of blobbing are major problem but to say that is the reason problems around sentry assistance mechanics should be ignored is same as saying we should stay in deep part of cesspool because even in shallow part we'll be up to our waist in ****. Call it radical thinking but being up to a waist in diarrhoea is still better then being up to a neck in it.
Sentry drone assistance mechanics compounds on blobbing effects, making them worse, and making bad situation worse is reason enough to see if something can or should be done with them.
Like the poster above you said, you completely missed the point.
There is no problem with drone-assist mechanics.
They have been around since ... forever.
You only see a problem with them now in a specific setting because they have been made popular there for the past two years and you just caught on.
The advantage is not that you can effectively manage focused fire. There are other systems (Artillery) which is far more effective at concerted fire and volley damage. Anyone who is not completely terrible at following commands or solely play in an environment where the environment superseed player action should be able to effectively lay down focused fire as easily or better with turrets than with drones (since assigning still come with a number of mechanical issues, as everything else... nothing is perfect even in spite of you just reaching the conclusion that the grass is greener).
The advantage is keeping your targets off coms and broadcasts, which is a meta-advantage that exist due to the stale environment in which you fight (where you sit still and everyone rely on the commands and actions of one player anyway; so any "grunt boredom" you attribute to drone-assigns equally exist with any other weapon system in that environment). That you push F1 once every 30-60 seconds does not change that fact.
One could even argue that drone-assists are more interactive, since players in those ships tend to manage their drones defensively, create cap chains and help out with the RR-effort while the trigger is firing off their drones. Compared to someone sitting still and pushing F1 nce every 30-60 seconds and waiting for new primaries, they are actually performing more actions in the game with their drones.
The problem is not the drone-assist mechanics, it's the environment in which you play.
Outside of that environment the drone-assist mechanics do not come with the "issues" you propose.
That means they don't "compound on blobbing effects" in the manner you presume.
Your "issues" are mostly not even due to the drone-mechanics, but directly derive from the environment anyway.
If I am not in a large gang under that meta, facing that lag or in that TiDi - your problem does not exist.
If I am not sitting still and trying to slug it out with a larger ship on it's premises - the problem does not exist.
If you want to have more fun, you should support a change to the paradigm of 200+ fleets sitting still on a single grid and slugging it out in 10% TiDi in ships that cost nothing to replace, over starbases that cost nothing to replace.
The win-win situation would be CCP renegging on their current direction and going back to making ingame resources (ISK) and mobility competetive factors again. They used to be just that. |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime
Kraken.
601
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 10:41:00 -
[69] - Quote
I've been in a sentry fleet. It worked pretty well but enemy bombers slowly whittled away the drones until we ran out and had to disengage.
Mind you this was by no means a coordinated bombing effort either. Just one bomb here and there.
Had they used a coordinated fleet of three to five bombers then we would have been out of drones after the first few runs.
We miss you Saede.
In-depth guide on how to safely mine in High Sec |
Kozlack
Ordo Drakonis
Nulli Secunda
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 12:52:00 -
[70] - Quote
I'd have to say that the super powered Tech 1 crusiers are a little bit more of a concern then sentry drones.... It's not like a Domi can drop 15 drones anymore anyway... So stop being bad and l2Counter
On vaction from hawk-eyeing local..... in empire |
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Evangelina Nolen
Sama Guild
30
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Posted - 2013.07.11 05:40:00 -
[71] - Quote
figure out who's assigning the drones. If only one or a few people seem to be targetting the primaries, ECM/Primary their boats. |
Rain6638
Team Evil
559
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 00:38:00 -
[72] - Quote
I'm in a scimitar and I can't assist with a warden II--right-click menu screenshot
am I missing something? (we can't assist with sentries anymore?)
I'm testing (well, attempting to test) whether I can assist with a drone outside of targeting range, but within control range (with 2 link augs)
targeting range is 74km, aggressor is at 90km, drone control range is 108km. seeing if my sentry will engage aggressor while set to assist.
wtf i can't assist with regular drones either
[ 2013.06.21 09:52:05 ] (notify) For initiating combat your security status has been adjusted by -0.1337
yo dawg, we heard you liek industrials, so we put an industrial in yo industrial so you can loss while u loss |
DSpite Culhach
Corp 54
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
138
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 06:24:00 -
[73] - Quote
Sofia Wolf wrote:I donGÇÖt have any problems with sentry drones, my problem is mechanic that allows single player to simultaneously and perfectly control fire from hundreds of drones. Fleet of 250 ships, each with 5 drones, and FC can perfectly concentrate fire of over twelve hundred drones while remaining 249 people in fleet are picking their nose, or eating lunch, or whatever...
Is that good game design?
I still would not care if this "fire coordination" was extended to normal guns. Ships that can fly through space? Warp millions of AU's? Fire beams of energy across the distances of two major cities on earth?
Having computer assisted, coordinated fire-control seems like a minor issue. If you can light up a red light bulb on a console on another ship that sais "when this button turns red, press your fire button" (broadcasts), seem rather logical someone would go "hmmm ... what If I use this lead and just tie it from the light to the fire button.
In EVE, until a ship is totally dead, it will usually function at 99% capacity, hence, 5 ships in 50% hull hurt just as much as 5 ships in 100% shield/armor/hull, so 4 Live ships hurt less then 5 almost dead ships, hence this "primary it until it dies"
What if mechanics were added to cripple a ship? what if a single smartbomb ship could land in the middle of 5 ships, and managed 4 blasts before death, but damaged/killed a bunch of guns, and suddenly, each of those 5 ships lost 20% overall weapon functionality? It would be as if you had killed an entire ship worth of DPS.
If you played old pen-and-paper games like DnD you would usually primary a target until dead, as a Troll on 1 HP hits just as hard as a Troll on 200 HP. If you played Rolemaster however, crippling strikes, bleeding and stuns from those horribly nasty Critical Tables could suddenly turn the tide; or take look at Mechwarrior and it's damage system, where a clever or skillful pilot can basically neutralize a mech with a few surgically accurate strikes to it's weapon systems.
We are stuck with what we have in EVE atm, so we use what we have. Hence the blobs, the alpha strikes and so on. I "see" a problem, but it won't go away until we have ships systems that can be targeted/repaired individually like in many other games.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships.
I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
xPredat0rz
Grey Templars
Fidelas Constans
52
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 08:53:00 -
[74] - Quote
Sentry Boats are the current flavor of the month doctrines. (Yes they were used before i know)
We have already proved multiple ways to counter them:
1. Bomb them. You can kill/cripple most of their fleet.
2. Ewar the **** out of their FCs thus nuetralizing the entire fleets dps.
3. Engaging them with long range weaponary.
4. Drop Blap Dreads on them.
Thats 4 very easy hard counters to the domi/geddon/prophecy/vexor fleets.
Hell we have even killed Boot Carriers(Slow Cats) under reps which in theory should be nearly impossible. You should be cap chaining meaning 2-3 people have you locked. Granted the fleet comp works better with nothing but archons and tanks more.
So no I do not think its completely overpowered to be able to assist 1k sentries. They dont track perfectly.
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The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 10:03:00 -
[75] - Quote
Some insight:
The basic "why it works" is because of human error. In a regular fleet of 100 members, over half are not shooting properly at primaries anyhow.
Sentry assist functions best in mid sized ~150-200 groups of sentries. This way the multiple target callers will efficiently apply enough instant DPS to kill targets before logistics can check in. This is not usually optimally used in big fleets.
"Target by range and just kill everything" fleets are surfacing again, because of target calling focus limitations. Megathrons can plow through anything if in good numbers and people are let to make their target calls in small units without focusing on arbitrary target calls.
Next in line logically is the hybrid: typhoon. Spew missiles with massive dps randomly to apply pressure, target callers pop weakened targets with sentries. |
Trinkets friend
T.R.I.A.D
1052
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 12:56:00 -
[76] - Quote
The problem of assigning your ability to have fun over to an FC (which is the OP's actual problem) is actually encountered when you join a nullsec blob corp/alliance.
Regarding bombing off sentries - this won't work when people figure out how to assign 'recall drones' to F12 nd can do it literally the moment they see a bomb on overview.
The Fat Cat doctrine of FW is a miniaturised version of this; there are counters.
Countering the latest TSB Domi fit with alpha fleets isn't the way. You are fighting against the whole damn idea of the TSB by locking up the domis and trying to alpha them. Much better to go free fire and overwhelm their logis with broadcasts and force them to scatter.
This doctrine would actually be harder to counter with mobile sentry snipers, oldendays style, eg; ishtars with 80km drone control ranges. You can drop your drones spread out, and fly around the place, meaning no one can bomb you and your sentries.
IMHO, the mechanic is fine - its amazing that people would decide that assigning away all interaction is fun. Its a problem with the culture of the game versus game mechanics.
Indigently pwning indifferently. Some sucker buy me a Naglfar.
http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Termy Rockling
EVE University
Ivy League
60
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 15:12:00 -
[77] - Quote
The issue here wasnt the drones, but possibility of 1 guy firing for whole fleet. Remove assigning drones or somethin |
Nazowa
UK Corp
RAZOR Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 08:15:00 -
[78] - Quote
No to anything that allows one player to act on behalf of 250 other players. That is a very broken mechanic and should be taken out of the game. Fleet fights are already boring as it is. |
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence
66
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 13:21:00 -
[79] - Quote
Termy Rockling wrote:...but sentries are almost op atm both in pve and pvp since the range / tracking changes.
That's a ship "issue", not a drone issue. Freeing up 3 mids since no Omni's are needed (at normal ranges) is one hell of a buff TBH.
The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
166
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 13:24:00 -
[80] - Quote
Kill the FC who is commanding all the dornes? |
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Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence
67
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 13:25:00 -
[81] - Quote
Nazowa wrote:No to anything that allows one player to act on behalf of 250 other players. That is a very broken mechanic and should be taken out of the game. Fleet fights are already boring as it is.
On a small-scale level, it really isn't an issue but I can see your point on a 250 man fleet. Perhaps rather than eliminating the drone assist altogether, what if there was a ship specific, skill dependent, or fixed game limitation on the amount of drone bandwidth a player can have assisted to them? Surely it wouldn't be a stretch to the "lore" so to speak as clearly the drones are interfacing with the assisted ship at some level, and therefore a limit would be feasible.
Drone Bunny V - Allows up to 625 Mbit/sec Drone Assist bandwidth
You can see where i am going with this...
The enemy of my enemy is... -ájust another guy that needs killin' |
Nazowa
UK Corp
RAZOR Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 14:24:00 -
[82] - Quote
Nash MacAllister wrote:Nazowa wrote:No to anything that allows one player to act on behalf of 250 other players. That is a very broken mechanic and should be taken out of the game. Fleet fights are already boring as it is. On a small-scale level, it really isn't an issue but I can see your point on a 250 man fleet. Perhaps rather than eliminating the drone assist altogether, what if there was a ship specific, skill dependent, or fixed game limitation on the amount of drone bandwidth a player can have assisted to them? Surely it wouldn't be a stretch to the "lore" so to speak as clearly the drones are interfacing with the assisted ship at some level, and therefore a limit would be feasible. Drone Bunny V - Allows up to 625 Mbit/sec Drone Assist bandwidth You can see where i am going with this...
What you are saying is perfectly fine for me. That wouldn't break the mechanic completely yet will include a limitation. Make it a skill and a module at the same time if you like so you can have people create dedicated characters for this which the enemy might spy and shoot just like they doing for FC's. In it is current state however it is completely broken and it encourages 250 sheep following a shepherd mentality even further as if we don't have too much of that already. |
Bigg Gun
Flying Bags Inc.
Bulgarian Space Federation
30
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Posted - 2013.07.24 03:49:00 -
[83] - Quote
MJD a disco phoon in the middle of the fleet kill sentries... profit
or bombing runs. even if they scoop their drones you still profit since they're not shooting |
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