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Tai Shen
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Posted - 2005.12.02 13:21:00 -
[1]
I started a post in response to the dev blog about the development of new capital ships when I realised I was going OT into other areas. So I thought I'd bring it here for my fellow EVE-ians to discuss/ridicule/argue/ignore.
The new capital ships (Carriers, Motherships and Titans) will become uber weapons in alliance wars. They will not stimulate the population of 0.0 space by offering new opportunities but rather severely curtail it. Here's my reasoning:
1. The current occupation of 0.0 space is driven by primal territoriality. The large alliances control all egress into their sovreign zones via the direct application of force. Several of the large alliances have the avowed intent of extending their zones of influence at the expense of others (normally accompanied by some very unseemly chest-beating).
2. With the advent of the new capital ships a new arms race will begin for they will be the deciding factors in alliance wars - see the dev blog for captial ship abilities to see why this is the case. The large alliances are the only bodies with both the resources and territory to develop these behemoths.
3. The first to develop and deploy the new capital ships will gain significant strategic and tactical advantage, which, if utilised, could lead to the rapid defeat of their opponents. This in turn means a greater proportion of 0.0 space controlled by a smaller group of alliances, maybe just one.
There are some interesting developments in terms of 0.0 colonisation - ISS being the obvious example. I can't help feeling that not only are they an exception, but that such organisations inevitably irritate the territorial mind set of many sovreignty claiming alliances who host them. This could be fatal for the likes of ISS in the future.
So, having said all that, what do you think? Are the new capital ships a step towards the monopolisation of 0.0 space? Does the thinking of the large alliances need to change? Is there a game mechanic that could force such a change? Are we happy to live in a game world where authoritarian might is the determining factor? Should CCP care? Is my model/thinking flawed (more than likely)? What would you do with a titan and and the doomsday gun attached to it?
I'll shut up now ...
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Sleeping with prostitutes is like making your cat dance on its hind legs. You know its wrong, but you kid yourself they're enjoying it. |
KIATolon
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Posted - 2005.12.02 13:23:00 -
[2]
None of these new capital ships are win buttons.
I would rather have a fleet of 400 fitted ravens that a titan.
The titan would be dead before it's weapon was charged.
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.12.02 13:31:00 -
[3]
Capital ships arent the end all weapon, when a blob focuses fire on a titan thats being srcrambled by a 25 km scrambler from a few ceptors theyll kill that 50 bill isk boat without its super weapon ever hitting anything.
Plus a lot of allianes allow neutrals to populate their space if you contact them, especially when they own a lot of space because they couldnt possibly defend it all by themselves.
This way smaller corps and alliances gain access to 0.0 and access to the construction of these ships.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Captain IceEye
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Posted - 2005.12.02 13:35:00 -
[4]
Yarr, Titans 4TW!! (Old but still makes meh smile)
I ll take 2 please.
elfen > read the forums they will tell u the truth |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2005.12.02 13:39:00 -
[5]
Seems a few players need to check the test server.
Eve will become more live Star Trek. Few ships will be destroyed.
Today in Eve we have about 15 setups per ship at max. Some are terrible some rock and own all. We kinda know which ship will be fitted. In Eve after the patch you wont have that anymore. There will be skills that will be taking the place of mods on your ship. What would you do if a Raven had XL shield exstenders on and have the same resistances and more than today. Do you really understand the impact of the new control damage mod?
The Alliances we have today are not ready for any of this capital ship building. They dont even build thier own dreads. They dont even know how these POS are suppose to work. I think we are going to have such a shock to the system. Eve player base will be in such a shock and chaos for about 2 months.
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Whats funny is your heard it. |
babyblue
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Posted - 2005.12.02 13:40:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: KIATolon
None of these new capital ships are win buttons.
I would rather have a fleet of 400 fitted ravens that a titan.
The titan would be dead before it's weapon was charged.
You will all have crashed to desktop long before the Titan is dead. 
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MrJordanIOI
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Posted - 2005.12.02 13:43:00 -
[7]
Very good points Tai.
However you need to approach the change and opportunities those new capital ships will bring from the other side as well.
One Billion of ISK to buy a carrier may sound a lot at first, but a small group of determined players, say a corp of 5-12 people, can get that cash in a feasable time.
It will be an effort of course, but once they got that thing they have something like a free ticket to 0.0.
They can avoid gate camps and blockades by using the jumpdrive and it'll be hard to catch a carrier pilot who knows what they are doing.
Thus the old territorial memes of the existing enclosurist alliances are once more weakened.
They will not be able to "protect the huge areas, the dozen of solarsystems they claim to be their own - worse they could even have a hard time driving carrier based freespacers off.
So - from my perspective - with the advent of carriers the old territorialism is nearing an end here as any small-medium sized corp can now go out and venture into 0.0 without the fear of getting ganked right at the entry gate.
You may see less and less of Alliances FEEspace and more and more of the Jericho Fractions FREEspace ideal emerging not long after RMR and carriers are being introduced.
Regards,
Mr.JordanIOI
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.12.02 14:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tai Shen
1. The current occupation of 0.0 space is driven by primal territoriality. The large alliances gate camp four hours a day, and spend the rest wandering around randomly looking for easy targets. Generally they are not a threat to anyone with half a brain. Several of the large alliances have the avowed intent of extending their zones of influence at the expense of others (normally accompanied by some very unseemly chest-beating) when they can't even protect one region as it is.
Fixed that for you.
Oh and titans will result in alliances having to shrink. At worst the early rollers will be able to destroy the 0.0 industrial operations of their enemies, who will then fall back to empire and build their own titans. Eventually defending your miners will be impossible to accomplish region wide without 3000+ PVP pilots. Consequently the alliances will have to stop claiming such large swathes of territory.
Exodus here we come.
I, don't, think, you, trust, in my self-righteous suicide. |
Soulita
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Posted - 2005.12.02 14:13:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Soulita on 02/12/2005 14:13:23
Originally by: MrJordanIOI
...
They will not be able to "protect the huge areas, the dozen of solarsystems they claim to be their own - worse they could even have a hard time driving carrier based freespacers off.
...
Nice. If this would be the case and alliances would have to reduce the size of their territories it would mean 0.0 space becomes open for more alliances. Concidering the playerbase is growing this would be a positive development.
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Tai Shen
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Posted - 2005.12.02 14:27:00 -
[10]
I would much prefer your view of EVE rather than mine Mr Jordan!
For the record I don't believe capital ships alone are the key but rather a capital ship supporting a large fleet. The ability to jump a fleet into a system is a massive advantage to anyone who can and would use it. The changing abilites of other ships is almost irrelevant. Who cares whether you can tank a raven for 20 seconds longer except that I can now drop a fleet of them right on top of your POS. Why bother doing that when I can freeem them from the other side of the system? Its not about individual ships, its about fleet operations.
I also agree that some alliances licence admission to 0.0 space but its a feudal arrangement with admitted corps being akin to indetured farmers. I'd be interested to hear what large alliances see as the benefits of hosting corps in 0.0 are. Certainly, from my perspective, I'm not being a peseant farmer for someone who could gank me at leisure.
I guess I'm mixing two things here - my thoughts on the implications the advent of capital ships and my personal feelings about the colonisation of 0.0. Nevertheless, I think the two are intertwined. Capital ships potentially change the oportunities for large alliances and thus could potentially change the future of 0.0 simply because they control a lot of it. Whether this is according to my view, Mr Jordans or another is the question.
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Sleeping with prostitutes is like making your cat dance on its hind legs. You know its wrong, but you kid yourself they're enjoying it. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.12.02 14:34:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 02/12/2005 14:35:05
If it would yes.
It does not however.
See, there are but so many possible alliances of sufficient size or ability to defend a core region well enough.
Form more then, from empire players, you'd say....
But the fact is, that defending a core region does not mean you can't be attacking other regions now does it ?
And to remove the economic viability of a medium strength and capaobility alliance does not depend on destroying their pos, it depends on making their space a constant warzone.
Conquest and destruction of static assets are two different things. They may overlap, but are far from the same.
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Power to the players !
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.12.02 14:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Seems a few players need to check the test server.
The Alliances we have today are not ready for any of this capital ship building. They dont even build thier own dreads. They dont even know how these POS are suppose to work. I think we are going to have such a shock to the system. Eve player base will be in such a shock and chaos for about 2 months.
Well, I agree abouot the coming shock, i however disagree about the cause.
And anyway, it seems you are the one that needs to check some reality here.
Alliances can't build their own capital ships ?
Riiiight.
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Power to the players !
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pk blinder
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Posted - 2005.12.02 14:40:00 -
[13]
Nobody knows and we can only conject, albeit some have a plainly open agenda, which as always, is tremendously amusing!
Will there be a huge advantage for those alliances that obtain high end ships first? It will depend on their player base's desires, their willpower to use it and the size of support for the action.
Believe me, Capital ships can be destroyed by a superior sized fleet, although it can take some time.
So I guess we will see the more organised alliances gaining yet more advantage, but that will be hard to guage until they commit that advantage to action.
Will the new ships open up 0.0 to medium sized empire based corps? Only if they know what they are getting into! Having Carriers, Motherships, Titans etc does not mean you have instant access to all space. You still need to get a ship into the territory with a cynosural field to jump to and what then? Set up a POS? Get your corpmates up there to rat or mine?
Very tough and highly risky, which is no different to now and why the bulk of players stay in empire. They are highly risk averse, which is a shame.
So Capital ships will have less of an impact than most consider, especially in the short term. Until we are presented with a valid way of defending ourselves in 0.0, other than the size of your blob, 0.0 will remain empty space, which is a shame.
Personally, I would like to see more "Freespace", but while the only power comes from your guns, everyone will continue to operate an NBSI policy.
PK Blinder
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Virida
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Posted - 2005.12.02 14:41:00 -
[14]
Also remember now the new drones probably can warp after ppl, so strong 0.0 alliances get an powerfull tool, too.
And, its an purpose i think behind the ships, to give corps without an 0.0 operation now, an chance to be able to do something there.
And thats one of the purpose of dreads too, maybe? to counter carriers and other ships? Now the large corps who invested in them got an reason to use dreads.
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Tai Shen
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Posted - 2005.12.02 14:50:00 -
[15]
Quote:
And to remove the economic viability of a medium strength and capaobility alliance does not depend on destroying their pos, it depends on making their space a constant warzone.
That's exactly the oportunity the new capitals provide - it can keep a fleet in the warzone for much longer. It also enables that fleet to penetrate deep behind enemy lines. Anyone who can't see the massive benefit that provides to those wishing to prosecute a war - well, they're the one's in for a shock.
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Sleeping with prostitutes is like making your cat dance on its hind legs. You know its wrong, but you kid yourself they're enjoying it. |
Ashraaf
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Posted - 2005.12.02 15:03:00 -
[16]
But Titan need starbase to be build
and covert cruiser with cynosural field could play suicide squad to
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Tai Shen
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Posted - 2005.12.02 16:00:00 -
[17]
TomB clarified that "Starbase" = POS.
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Sleeping with prostitutes is like making your cat dance on its hind legs. You know its wrong, but you kid yourself they're enjoying it. |
MrJordanIOI
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Posted - 2005.12.02 17:42:00 -
[18]
Edited by: MrJordanIOI on 02/12/2005 17:45:34
Originally by: Tai Shen
I would much prefer your view of EVE rather than mine Mr Jordan!
For the record I don't believe capital ships alone are the key but rather a capital ship supporting a large fleet. The ability to jump a fleet into a system is a massive advantage to anyone who can and would use it. The changing abilites of other ships is almost irrelevant. Who cares whether you can tank a raven for 20 seconds longer except that I can now drop a fleet of them right on top of your POS. Why bother doing that when I can freeem them from the other side of the system? Its not about individual ships, its about fleet operations.
I also agree that some alliances licence admission to 0.0 space but its a feudal arrangement with admitted corps being akin to indetured farmers. I'd be interested to hear what large alliances see as the benefits of hosting corps in 0.0 are. Certainly, from my perspective, I'm not being a peseant farmer for someone who could gank me at leisure.
I guess I'm mixing two things here - my thoughts on the implications the advent of capital ships and my personal feelings about the colonisation of 0.0. Nevertheless, I think the two are intertwined. Capital ships potentially change the oportunities for large alliances and thus could potentially change the future of 0.0 simply because they control a lot of it. Whether this is according to my view, Mr Jordans or another is the question.
Well - you can.
Just get in touch or join up with the notorious Jericho Fraction or Star Fraction Alliance.
We ve been here for years promoting and - to a certain extent - maintaining the Freespace ideal which is much more than meets the eye really.
The basic idea is that no one can really claim space and keep that claim as the enclosurist alliances frantically try to at the moment.
That is, as long as you dont let them put the prison bars into your mind.
The other idea is that we dont shoot any corporation's members unless the corporation hasnt shot us.
We share the same space and help each other rather than compete for unlimited resources that some of those xenophobic alliances out there seem
to be compelled protecting.
With capital ships that simply can jump in and ignore gate camps the former structure of "ownership" for starsystems or regions will change.
Even if those carriers just end up ninja mining in a scaled up way it will be different.
Come to the North.
See Pure Blind.
Visit X-7
and get a taste of Freespace ;)
IOI
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Gierling
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Posted - 2005.12.02 17:51:00 -
[19]
Currently jump drives allow you to jump even when scrambled.
All you need is a friend with a cyno in range and some fuel and the Titan will be safe.
*snip* That's not very appropriate. - Teblin |
Zaldiri
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Posted - 2005.12.02 17:52:00 -
[20]
How many alliances have an outpost? how many alliences have two outposts? bare in mind that outposts cannot be destroyed but Titans will be a prime target.
I predict there will be very few Titans in eve and that they will be, for the most part, anchored in the middle of a very heavily defended POS in the alliances stronghold, and so wont have much affect on the game.
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Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
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Gaelron
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Posted - 2005.12.02 18:03:00 -
[21]
Large capitol ships will be immune to ECM/warp scramblers.
Titans main purpose isnt to kill things...it is to be a mobile clone station/ship hanger.
Carriers cant kill dreads/titans they can give extra firepower to other pilots while serving as a ship refit/rearming station.
Dreads are made to kill both of them...a titan cannot kill a dread but that dread is very likely to kill the titan if it doesnt jump out (it might take a while but the titan will die.)
I forsee...
The best use for the titan superweapon being against POS's while the dreads and BS's pound on it from range (dont froget to get the drones out before it goes off.)
Titans and carriers acting as mobile bases (with carriers supplying anti-frig support) with no offensive role in combat...they will only be in defensive combat long enough to jump away and thats it. There are no reasons to have more than 1 titan and maybe 2-5 carriers per combat theatre. Alliances probably wont make more than that...example: they will make one for a war in the south and another for wars in the north (if they have safe places to keep them.
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Haniblecter Teg
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Posted - 2005.12.02 20:06:00 -
[22]
But you cant move these things thorugh empire...which means that alliances will be limited to attacking their neighbors, since EVE's 00 region is arranged around a circle.
Friends Forever |
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