I've seen a great many posts recently crying about suicide ganks ayers threatening to leave over it.

A great many? Recently?

Link to 3.

A great many? Recently?

Link to 3.

You lost a faction fit Tengu in null in 2012; what am I missing?

I've seen a great many posts recently crying about suicide ganks and players threatening to leave over it. As a recent victim my tengu was popped at a gank. Besides the several 100 million the ship alone was worth It was my mission boat tricked out with close to 4 billion in modules.

It was a sad loss but I learned two things. I didn't really need that much isk invested in one ship, I was asking for it. And two: this game is awesome. For every victim there is a winner and the guys that got me had quiet the pay day. Ill enjoy hunting them over my 30 day kill rights and use this as a lesson to fly better (and fit smarter) in the future.

While the loss represented about 2/3 of my net worth I'll rebuild and keep enjoying this great game.

Keep Calm and Fly on!

You lost a faction fit Tengu in null in 2012; what am I missing?

It seems data mining really isn't your thing.

Just pointing out that his resolution not to invest so much in one ship seems a little insincere mate.

Perhaps you should judge my intent better.

Just pointing out that his resolution not to invest so much in one ship seems a little insincere mate.

Perhaps you should judge my intent better.

I can't fap to this.

Your positive, learning attitude is killing my buzz, OP.

A great many? Recently?

Link to 3.

For every loser there is a winner, for every groan there is a cheer for every face palm a high five.

Unlike you i was Killed by Misconstrewd Game Mechanics . If i had died like everyone else i would have never started a POST, You Should delete this POST its pointless

Yay, tears!

Theres no lesson here - suiciding is cheap skilless and negates the purpose of high sec - it was supposed to be safe space.

someone wasted a thrasher on my shuttle the other day.

that'll learn me to AP about high sec!

bounty payout 1000 ISK loooooooool

You'd be surprised when you learn how many people are carrying valuables (PLEX, Implants, Salvage) via autopiloting shuttle. It's always worth using a 2M Thrasher on them.

or a ship scanner.

If that were the case, the CONCORD response time would be set to be immediate and you wouldn't be able to commit any criminal offense at all. Since that is not the case we can conclude that high sec wasn't supposed to be 100% safe space. qed.

Originally by Oveur: High security empire space is supposed to be quite safe. ... That's the whole point of high security.

Dev post - show me one that says otherwise.

I am afraid that "quite" safe and "completely" safe are not the same thing. High Sec is "quite" safe, given that there is punishment of unauthorized aggression by Concord. However, High Sec is NOT "completely" safe. You can obviously still be ganked.

Oveurs post was addressing ganking. "Quite safe" is not getting ganked whenever someone decides they want to blow up your crap. Thats quite unsafe in fact.

no, "quite unsafe" would be having no counters to ganking

I didn't really need that much isk invested in one ship

i feel we simply have a misunderstanding here

infinite ziona, highsec space is the area with CONCORD and faction police

it's the other areas that don't have these things

Finally a highsec missionrunner gets it.

Billions of isk is not a worthwhile investment for running a mission 3% faster.

You can delude yourself into thinking high sec is quite safe now but we all know its not quite that way atm

Im saying its not quite safe because its far too easy and risk free to gank. Not just small ships but some of the largest ships allowed in high sec.

prove it

Lol.

What needs to happen is EHP should be a proper balance to dissuade ganking for giggles. A ship should only be woth suiciding if its fitted with or carrying enough to justify the gank on economic terms. The devs have done this before when exhumers were released with way too little HP. They need to do it again to account for the increased DPS of current skills and ships.

Faction play no role. Concord is irrelevant when it comes to ganking since ganking is so quick even on a capital class hull.

so if i put plex inside a freighter it would suddenly lose ehp?

ganking needs to be fast because after a certain amount of time CONCORD shows up and kills everybody

that's why they call it 'suicide ganking'

if you have any more questions about basic game mechanics feel free to ask

If there was enough plex to justify ganking the freighter than it would be worth the 2 billion cost of ganking one. Problem at the moment is you can gank a freighter for a fraction of the cost of a freighter.

oh so you believe in isk tanking, lmao

a t1 catalyst costs 2 million and does 418 dps. a t2 catalyst costs 11 million and does 686 dps. which one should it be balanced against?

Lol. You need to think before you post. You just agreed with what I said without even realising it.

EHP and build cost have always been used to balance ships in EvE. Apparently devs believe in it to and always have.

EHP and build cost have always been used to balance ships in EvE. Apparently devs believe in it to and always have.

one of my ships has 42m EHP

another ship of a different type has 35m EHP

guess which one is more expensive

They're irrelevant to the discussion.

no, they're not, because you claim that EHP increases with build cost which is a lie

Not a lie at all. Build cost and EHP are related. A frigs build cost and EHP are lower than dessie which is lower than cruiser and so on. I didn't say they were all perfectly linear.

Exhumer EHP was buffed because they were too easy to gank vs cost of the hull. The same is now true of freighters.

I want to make it clear that one of our goals in this rebalancing pass is to somewhat narrow the gap between higher cost and lower cost ships compared to the canyon that existed in the past. We are not planning on buffing the high cost ships to the same degree that we did with the T1 Frigates and Cruisers, as this would simply create direct power creep and leave us right back where we started. We want to reach a place where cheaper ships are more than just something you fly when you start the game, but instead present a viable and interesting option to be chosen by people of many levels of experience. Our vision for cost-balancing is that cost should play a limited part in balancing ships and that obtaining a roughly linear increase in effectiveness should require an exponential increase in cost.

none of them should be linear



http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/74270

That is referring to ship capability. As in a Osprey should be as effective as a Moa in regards to its differing role.

Not a lie at all. Build cost and EHP are related. A frigs build cost and EHP are lower than dessie which is lower than cruiser and so on. I didn't say they were all perfectly linear.

Exhumer EHP was buffed because they were too easy to gank vs cost of the hull. The same is now true of freighters.

tank is part of a ships capability

So you think they're saying 30 Dessies costing around 70 mill should be able to gank a multi billion isk freighter before concord shows up?

seriously trying to give freighters enough EHP to tank their cost in catalysts in 0.5 means giving them enough EHP to tank multiple doomsdays

i don't think CCP will agree that freighters need to tank doomsdays

Yeah perhaps the issue is both EHP + a destroyer that does close to 700 dps + concord response time.

you're unable to comprehend or unwilling to accept that the reason what few organised ganking groups exist are able to operate within the strict limitations imposed by highsec mechanics are able to do so because they have numbers, they plan well, they have good knowledge of mechanics and calulating ehp/expected dps, they have well organised fleets and patient, competent, experienced members

the point of my post was to try and make this clear to you - that the reason ganking must be quick is due to the limitation of CONCORD and faction police. it is not that ganking as an activity is too easy that CONCORD cannot turn up in time, it is that the fleet is forced by game mechanics to be incredibly efficient

the fact that you thought my post was in any way agreeing with you doesn't speak well for your comprehension skills

You have absolutely no clue what youre talking about. So you shouldnt lecture others about comprehension.

Suicide ganking a freighter is that absurdly easy nowadays that is even done with multiboxing.

Entertain me and tell whats about competence to bump a freighter off gate/grid, launch an absurdly cheap fleet of Catalysts who is controlled by maybe 6 real Players with isboxer, warp to member, target freighter and press F1 on 3,2,1 Fire.

Getting a monkey who fits the catalysts in advance?

The usual gank catalysts are very very easy to destroy, just use insta-canes against them, you can one-shot them. That makes them pretty balanced as they trade tank for dps - as it should be.

Entertain me and tell whats about competence to bump a freighter off gate/grid, launch an absurdly cheap fleet of Catalysts who is controlled by maybe 6 real Players with isboxer, warp to member, target freighter and press F1 on 3,2,1 Fire

Yeah perhaps the issue is both EHP + a destroyer that does close to 700 dps + concord response time.

And the catalysts wouldnt shoot back if you attack them before the gank or do you suggest a fleet of canes in exchange for a fleet of 30 catalysts?

and yet despite how easy it is claimed to be, its still absurdly rare

easier said than done

Maybe you should check with Seraphin Foad ... he may tell you how easy it is.
Or just check his videos.

You realized that it took a year of trial and error for Miniluv to gank freighters the way they do, right?

I've seen a great many posts recently crying about suicide ganks and players threatening to leave over it. As a recent victim my tengu was popped at a gank. Besides the several 100 million the ship alone was worth It was my mission boat tricked out with close to 3 billion in modules.

Und that makes a difference to the subject that nowadays its absurdly easy to gank a freighter in HighSec because of exactly ..... what?

Because some invested their time and its now their right to "reap the fruits" without end?

Besides ... if these guys really needed 1 year to get the point than plain zerging is the key to success ....

If it's absurdly easy why don't you go do it?

BECAUSE I'M BETTER THAN YOU NYA NYA NYA

You have absolutely no clue what youre talking about. So you shouldnt lecture others about comprehension.

Suicide ganking a freighter is that absurdly easy nowadays that is even done with multiboxing.

Entertain me and tell whats about competence to bump a freighter off gate/grid, launch an absurdly cheap fleet of Catalysts who is controlled by maybe 6 real Players with isboxer, warp to member, target freighter and press F1 on 3,2,1 Fire.

Getting a monkey who fits the catalysts in advance?

If there was enough plex to justify ganking the freighter than it would be worth the 2 billion cost of ganking one. Problem at the moment is you can gank a freighter for a fraction of the cost of a freighter.

ok you just claimed three things

"you are ignorant"
"suicide ganking is easy"
"you don't need to be competent to do it"

i'm afraid that's the entire content of your post. there's nothing to argue against here, you're just a forum alt whining about gankers vOv

Maybe you should follow the thread instead of scanning just parts and pick some statements to jump at.

But i give you a hint .... boring? Dont want to "camp"? Have no entertainment in shooting a "lame duck" aka Freighter? etc. etc.

Can someone who knows the maths explain to this noob what it takes to suicide gank a few different ships; a retreiver, a mackinaw, a procurer, for example?

This bumping thing- It prevents a target from warping away or logging out before death, yes? Is there a way to fit or align or manoever against the ganking tactics?

Other MMOs try for some sort of rock paper scissors type areangement to balance stuff, I gather.

I'm not against Hisec being dangerous, but if there's literally nothing cN be done against it, it seems a bit unbalanced.

As an analogy, my lolsec mining cheapfit vent costs about 400k. I havent got a huge datapool of trips in and out, but I think I average about 3 trips at 1.4mil profit per trip before a pirate webs and kills me. Then I fire up another Vent and go again.

That's obviously me 'winning' in terms of isk lost to isk gained. The suicide gankers are operating in a similar way, I assume (ships lost in isk are the 'cost', but the gain is what? Modules, salvage, tears?)

There is more I can do for fit to make my vent somewhT safer in lolsec, but the investment in better fit would not overcome the losses.

If the losses die to suicide ganks are over time less than the gains made in between ganks, what's the problem?

Und that makes a difference to the subject that nowadays its absurdly easy to gank a freighter in HighSec because of exactly ..... what?

If its so easy, why do so few die?

Can someone who knows the maths explain to this noob what it takes to suicide gank a few different ships; a retreiver, a mackinaw, a procurer, for example?

This bumping thing- It prevents a target from warping away or logging out before death, yes? Is there a way to fit or align or manoever against the ganking tactics?

Other MMOs try for some sort of rock paper scissors type areangement to balance stuff, I gather.

I'm not against Hisec being dangerous, but if there's literally nothing cN be done against it, it seems a bit unbalanced.

As an analogy, my lolsec mining cheapfit vent costs about 400k. I havent got a huge datapool of trips in and out, but I think I average about 3 trips at 1.4mil profit per trip before a pirate webs and kills me. Then I fire up another Vent and go again.

That's obviously me 'winning' in terms of isk lost to isk gained. The suicide gankers are operating in a similar way, I assume (ships lost in isk are the 'cost', but the gain is what? Modules, salvage, tears?)

There is more I can do for fit to make my vent somewhT safer in lolsec, but the investment in better fit would not overcome the losses.

If the losses die to suicide ganks are over time less than the gains made in between ganks, what's the problem?

too hard to follow a thread before posting a one liner that already got answered twice?

Well ... i described why its absurdly easy and thats all you can do? Cry about that you have done nothing to disprove it and tries it with "cry more" to me? The usual answer from one without the slightest clue? If you dont know what youre talking about attack the poster? Need a picture?

Besides .... may i in return suggest that you should work on your reading comprehension? where exactly did i cry about "freighter ganking" instead of simply describing why its absurdly easy to do? Tell me about the "rocket science" of freighter ganking. Im all ears.

Post more please. Entertain me. But here ... a Kleenex first.

A Procurer will usually be ignored in highsec. The Retreiver is easier to gank but I think it can fit an adaptive invuln or a medium shield extender and a damage control unit, which makes gankers look for other, easier targets. Same with the Mackinaw. One or two Catalysts I think can kill an undertanked Retreiver, two or three for the undertanked Mack, but the Mack can be tanked over 40k EHP vs. Antimatter ammo (common ganker guns) which makes people look for easier targets

Und that makes a difference to the subject that nowadays its absurdly easy to gank a freighter in HighSec because of exactly ..... what?

I'm quiet disappointed in myself. I hoped to follow up this post with the Kill Mail of myself killing those who ganked me but my kill rights are about up and they dock up every time I get in system.

It would have been epic to post a link and just say welcome to eve haha.

Oh well!

Next time, transfer the kill rights to a friend or an alt, or hire a mercenary to do the deed for you. That might not normally be necessary, but chances are they saw this thread and your intent to kill them, and played it safe.

So you think they're saying 30 Dessies costing around 70 mill should be able to gank a multi billion isk freighter before concord shows up? I didnt read that in the post at all. All I read was something about combat ship progression and top line shops not obsoleting formerly lower tier ships based purely on cost of hull.

I too would like to know that if its so easy, why do so few die?

magapostrophes you should know better than to drop this weapons-grade logic on whine threads because you basically denied the rest of us at least a couple of solid pages of people raging about freighter ganks

To illustrate why you're wrong

Freighters can be ganked with noob ships with civilian guns that cost literally zero

ergo: to be balanced, freighters must have infinite EHP


The apparent paradox is that you're not including player effort in your calculations. 30 guys in destroyers can kill anything and they should be able to.

You forgot to mention the fact that 70 mil for 30 destroyers is a laughable figure. I did a market check for 15 gank catalysts in another thread:

15 x Catalysts @ 1.25 mil: 18.75 mil
15 x 8 Light Neutron Blaster IIs @ 0.9 mil: 108 mil
15 x 3 Magnetic Field Stabilizers @ 0.8 mil: 36 mil
Total: 162.75 mil

So, for 30 dessies, you're looking at 325.50 mil investment. Somewhat larger than 70, I would say. And I'm not even a PvPer, let alone a ganker. I have no idea what goes in the mids, or if rigs are used. Ammo cost is probably low since you won't get many shots off. But the sheer bloody stupidity that I see on display about investments is always good for a chuckle.

You forgot to mention the fact that 70 mil for 30 destroyers is a laughable figure. I did a market check for 15 gank catalysts in another thread:

15 x Catalysts @ 1.25 mil: 18.75 mil
15 x 8 Light Neutron Blaster IIs @ 0.9 mil: 108 mil
15 x 3 Magnetic Field Stabilizers @ 0.8 mil: 36 mil
Total: 162.75 mil

So, for 30 dessies, you're looking at 325.50 mil investment. Somewhat larger than 70, I would say. And I'm not even a PvPer, let alone a ganker. I have no idea what goes in the mids, or if rigs are used. Ammo cost is probably low since you won't get many shots off. But the sheer bloody stupidity that I see on display about investments is always good for a chuckle.

Mids - Sebos, lots of sebos with scan res scripts and some tackle on a couple.
Rigs - Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I, Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I.
Ammo - 15 rounds of Void-S or CN Antimatter-S per gun.