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Dear CCP, we need industry overhaul, badly!

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Photon Ceray Caesar Lile Directorate 38	Posted - 2013.07.06 12:48:00 - [1] - Quote Dear CCP, Industry really needs an overhaul! it's been needing it for years and it's way overdue! Preferably that should come with POS overhaul, which you have been putting off for a long time. I actually tried to make this post without referring to POS, but the problem is that industry is so dependent on POS! and working with pos is frustrating, time consuming, inefficient, and a ton of other horrible things that I am sure you already know. I don't presume to tell you how to run your business, but this is a product that you're selling to me and other hundreds of thousands! What I understood from the minutes of CSM meeting last year, game design doesn't do it because they depend on art team, and art team doesn't do it because they depend on game design, I mean, what the heck man? It's like this big responsibility that you keep postponing, but it's not gonna go away, it'll just get worse! You said you wanted to help the "Enablers" in the game, well POS is the biggest obstacle for them right now! I suggest you don't try to "FIX" POS iteration by iteration, that will take a long time and will only give a small improvement for the time and effort it takes. It might be better to build a new system FROM SCRATCH! don't bother with a system to converting old pos assets to new system, just make a separate system, call it advanced player structures, and people who want to convert to the new system can do it on their own when they put new POSs or take down the old and put the new. If it's the high sec pos that depend on standings, you could implement something easy to convert only the control tower when all other structures are un-anchored and out of the shields. Bottom line is, industry is broken, POS is broken, industry is depending on pos, that's industry broken^2! Please don't settle for superficial polish and minor changes. If this is the time when you start discussing the next expansion, then you should seriously consider taking the brave hard step and fixing industry and pos. you will have the community's support on this! and it'll significantly improve the quality of your product!
Arya Regnar Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 30	Posted - 2013.07.06 13:09:00 - [2] - Quote This forum needs sage. I want to say that your idea is bad and you told nothing useful without bumping your thread. EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Photon Ceray Caesar Lile Directorate 38	Posted - 2013.07.07 09:06:00 - [3] - Quote Arya Regnar wrote: This forum needs sage. I want to say that your idea is bad and you told nothing useful without bumping your thread. the most constructive reply I've ever heard!
Kraal Utrecht Running with Knives Nexus Fleet 10	Posted - 2013.07.07 10:22:00 - [4] - Quote Brave steps have to be made. The bravest one is to decide on moment in time when old game will loose its support and works on new are about to start. Serious changes are impossible - it would bring to much of resistance from players, because there will always be a loosing group. Cosmetic and small changes are far too ineffective and tend to create new problems because are build around old ones. I will use FUNCOM example here. I have played Anarchy Online for quite long time and despite lone but serious voices that game needs to be remade they only implemented new expansions. They have missed the final moment and in last resort to save the situation they have released AoC and TSW. It did not helped them as they closed 2012 with -62 millions of income (compared to -15 millions of income in 2011). And all that while having rotting gem in their pocket. Ten years is nice round anniversary and instead of thinking about new expansions - think about EVE 2 CCP.
Photon Ceray Caesar Lile Directorate 38	Posted - 2013.07.08 01:04:00 - [5] - Quote Kraal Utrecht wrote: Brave steps have to be made. The bravest one is to decide on moment in time when old game will loose its support and works on new are about to start. Serious changes are impossible - it would bring to much of resistance from players, because there will always be a loosing group. Cosmetic and small changes are far too ineffective and tend to create new problems because are build around old ones. I will use FUNCOM example here. I have played Anarchy Online for quite long time and despite lone but serious voices that game needs to be remade they only implemented new expansions. They have missed the final moment and in last resort to save the situation they have released AoC and TSW. It did not helped them as they closed 2012 with -62 millions of income (compared to -15 millions of income in 2011). And all that while having rotting gem in their pocket. Ten years is nice round anniversary and instead of thinking about new expansions - think about EVE 2 CCP. I haven't played anarchy online so I can't judge that, but EVE 2 as you say it doesn't have to be 1 big step. proper expansions that add major new content and overhauls old systems and contents are the way to go. CCP is trying this, and the increasing number of subsribers is an indicator of improvement, but while the company gets new customers every expansion, they also bleed old customers who get bored or fed up with the game. Overhauling old system is one of the ways to reduce this customer bleed, but that's CCP's business. My objective is to remind that industry needs an overhaul badly, and so does POS because it's massively intertwined with industry.
Shereza Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 159	Posted - 2013.07.08 02:20:00 - [6] - Quote Kraal Utrecht wrote: Ten years is nice round anniversary and instead of thinking about new expansions - think about EVE 2 CCP. And while they think about that why don't you think about no updates, or only minor bug/exploit patches, for 2-4+ years as they develop it.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3856	Posted - 2013.07.08 04:19:00 - [7] - Quote We all know that POSes suck. How would you fix them? Here are my ideas: http://mararinn.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/industry-refine-and-manufacture.html Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Arya Regnar Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 38	Posted - 2013.07.08 05:28:00 - [8] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: We all know that POSes suck. How would you fix them? Here are my ideas: http://mararinn.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/industry-refine-and-manufacture.html That link looks legit EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3856	Posted - 2013.07.08 06:51:00 - [9] - Quote What is wrong with my ideas? Perhaps you feel that refining is not part of industry? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Perihelion Olenard 172	Posted - 2013.07.08 11:29:00 - [10] - Quote Industry is already getting an overhaul. The haulers are being changed. I wear my sunglasses at night.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1268	Posted - 2013.07.08 11:47:00 - [11] - Quote Quote: but the problem is that industry is so dependent on POS! this is where i stopped reading. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3856	Posted - 2013.07.09 00:29:00 - [12] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: Quote: but the problem is that industry is so dependent on POS! this is where i stopped reading. You have obviously never stepped foot out of the T1-on-bought-BPCs game. Research, invention, reactions, drugs, T3 BPCs all require POSes. Sure, you can do the manufacturing in the copious NPC facilities available, but for everything else there's POS based industry. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Andrew Indy Four Pillar Production Headshot Gaming 14	Posted - 2013.07.09 04:45:00 - [13] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Daniel Plain wrote: Quote: but the problem is that industry is so dependent on POS! this is where i stopped reading. You have obviously never stepped foot out of the T1-on-bought-BPCs game. Research, invention, reactions, drugs, T3 BPCs all require POSes. Sure, you can do the manufacturing in the copious NPC facilities available, but for everything else there's POS based industry. You can do research , copying and invention in NPC stations. Sure POS's are better and i have 2 POS's for that reason but I don't think they really need fixing for those specific roles. Not sure about T3 or drugs because I don't currently do either of those.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3856	Posted - 2013.07.09 11:15:00 - [14] - Quote Andrew Indy wrote: You can do research , copying and invention in NPC stations. Sure POS's are better and i have 2 POS's for that reason but I don't think they really need fixing for those specific roles. Try running a research/invention POS as a service for an alliance. Or heck, try running a wormhole "home" for an alliance. POSes need urgent attention, not just for the role of industrial base. And PS: NPC facilities in hisec need a massive whack with the nerf bat. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
chaosgrimm Universal Production and Networking Services 8	Posted - 2013.07.09 13:38:00 - [15] - Quote IMO the biggest issues for industry are: * T1 metas make it so there really aren't that many reasons to buy or produce T1 non meta modules. Honestly id be up for giving meta 0 meta 4 properties, adjusting mission / ratting drop accordingly, then removing T1 meta altogether or at least meta 4 faucets. * Blueprint ME / PE system is confusing unfairly favors vets. Many ppl just buy bpcs based on ME vs price, but dont necessarily know that ME effectiveness has a cap and scales differently. This makes higher ME more desirable, even when more ME isnt more effective. Whereas SP only makes you more diverse, with ME you simply wont catch up and be at a disadvantage. I think bpos should only have 5 me/pe lvls to match skills, with research times that are item class dependant.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service 215	Posted - 2013.07.09 14:18:00 - [16] - Quote Photon Ceray wrote: POSes! Rawr! You might have better luck if you actually stated what you consider to be wrong with POSes, other than just y'know saying that they are "bad". I would agree that there are many things that could be vastly improved with POSes, but if you want Dev interest then being specific helps. On a slightly related sidenote - One thing to include in a POS/Industry improvement is to make them a better choice than an Empire station. A station in Empire should be the WORST place to do manufacturing. A POS should be the middle choice. And a constructed station in null should be the best place to manufacture/research stuff.
Photon Ceray Caesar Lile Directorate 38	Posted - 2013.07.10 10:11:00 - [17] - Quote Vladimir Norkoff wrote: Photon Ceray wrote: POSes! Rawr! You might have better luck if you actually stated what you consider to be wrong with POSes, other than just y'know saying that they are "bad". I would agree that there are many things that could be vastly improved with POSes, but if you want Dev interest then being specific helps. On a slightly related sidenote - One thing to include in a POS/Industry improvement is to make them a better choice than an Empire station. A station in Empire should be the WORST place to do manufacturing. A POS should be the middle choice. And a constructed station in null should be the best place to manufacture/research stuff. Everybody who worked with POS knows how horrible they are, CCP knows most of all and they acknowledged that many times, so there is no need for me to point out the obvious. Quote: You can do research , copying and invention in NPC stations. Sure POS's are better and i have 2 POS's for that reason but I don't think they really need fixing for those specific roles. Not sure about T3 or drugs because I don't currently do either of those. copying in NPC stations, really? try finding copying slot in high sec, in a reasonably well located system!
Ellendras Silver Bite Me inc Bitten. 59	Posted - 2013.07.10 10:55:00 - [18] - Quote i totaly agree on the POS but i think drones needs fix before industry
Ellendras Silver Bite Me inc Bitten. 59	Posted - 2013.07.10 10:56:00 - [19] - Quote Photon Ceray wrote: Arya Regnar wrote: This forum needs sage. I want to say that your idea is bad and you told nothing useful without bumping your thread. the most constructive reply I've ever heard! he is not wrong you only said that industry needs a fix and POS needs a fix but in the whole post there isnt anything to be found on what is wrong exactly. i dont do industry so plz tell me what is wrong?
Photon Ceray Caesar Lile Directorate 38	Posted - 2013.07.11 10:55:00 - [20] - Quote Ellendras Silver wrote: Photon Ceray wrote: Arya Regnar wrote: This forum needs sage. I want to say that your idea is bad and you told nothing useful without bumping your thread. the most constructive reply I've ever heard! he is not wrong you only said that industry needs a fix and POS needs a fix but in the whole post there isnt anything to be found on what is wrong exactly. i dont do industry so plz tell me what is wrong? because there are already hundreds of pages of suggestions from players on how to improve them, and i am sure ccp have hundreds of ideas on their idea board. I am not going to repeat what has already been said like 927439759734957 times. I am reminding that Industry and POS overhaul will be the MOST value to the game than any other possible change. Indy/POS are the old rotten wheel that is bringing the whole car down, Like they say, do the right thing regardless if it will work or not. the right thing here is to remind, despite knowing that my reminder isn't more likely to happen than rosy dreams of some little girl.

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