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Bigben	Posted - 2005.12.07 22:40:00 - [31] tempests, is a very strange ship. dispite its odd sailing look it in my opinion was designed for pvp. but if a tempest is abused , by putting ac's on it they deserve to die, but when you put 1400mm2s on - 6 gyrob2s and you have advanced weapon upgrades lvl5 which allows you to fit that.... your UNSTOPPABBLE! no other bs in there best setup in their best range can overpower it. no apoc can tank it for 10 seconds more then a none tanker bs can, but to be able to pilot this and make it shine at its peak, there comes a big need in skills. you need good navigation skills to get your temp to the battle quick enough, you need to get in range of them quick enough and you need to be able to warp quick enough. you need tremondos gunnery eg large projectile med and small turret all to lvl5 to be able to use the t2 howitzers.and you need there specialisation skills high also. but when you get there it really does shine manchester united's best ever fan!
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.12.07 23:00:00 - [32] Edited by: Wrayeth on 07/12/2005 23:01:12 Um...actually, post-RMR, an artillery tempest...well...sucks. With the massive tanking boost, 1400 burst damage and DPS isn't enough to match a beampoc, cruise raven, or railathron. Also, thanks to low ammo capacity and because so many more shots need to be fired to kill anything post-RMR, 1400's need to be reloaded at least once - and sometimes two or three times! - during the course of a battlesihp fight. This cuts down on DPS even further. In contrast, autocannons kick ass post-RMR (they're also excellent tools on TQ atm, if you know what you're doing). Right now, artillery needs a boost to be competitive in RMR, both in ammo capacity and in damage. -Wrayeth Go away.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2005.12.07 23:19:00 - [33] We already knew the Tempest + projectiles was inferior. CCP Hammer boosted projectiles but didnt want to boost them further since the guns themselves need to be balanced. He felt that it could become viable for an apoc or Armageddon to then wear projectiles and ruleall. So the problem has to be fixed with the ship itself since its the combination of ship + guns that is at issue. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Phlaago Rexor	Posted - 2005.12.07 23:24:00 - [34] Sarmaul, if you want a 6th midslot tempest there is already one. its called the fleet issue tempest. I have no idea how/where to get one myself but at least according to the ship comparer its in the game :) the idea to switch the 6th low for a 6th mid is really abysmal. you wont be able to fill that midslot with anything even remotely cpu heavy. the pg/cpu on the pest leans towards armor tanking by a big margin. dps wise the pest looks ok on paper as a longrange sniper.. it pulls ahead of the mega if both use the +60% range ammo but then the mega can drop down to 40% range ammo and still get better optimal and it will outstrip the pest by a few %. this is with the mega using 7 guns against the tempests 6 guns. dps with the longrange guns using -50% range ammo will leave the tempest in the dust though :/
Haniblecter Teg	Posted - 2005.12.07 23:30:00 - [35] Its used for burst damage. 2 well fitted tempests can pop a BS if Im correct. Use it for something other than NPC'ing and you'llknow. Friends Forever
Rockbox	Posted - 2005.12.08 00:39:00 - [36] If your tempest gets a boost, then my Armageddon better get one two... we are all in the same boat so can it. ---------------------------------------- http://www.eve-files.com/media/11/RBsig.jpg Maximum signature image filesize is 24000 bytes - Udat
Drunkeh	Posted - 2005.12.08 00:48:00 - [37] Originally by: Rockbox If your tempest gets a boost, then my Armageddon better get one two... we are all in the same boat so can it. Except geddons do like 40% more damage than a pest. Originally by: Omeega I R NO WORK. I SELL MY KIDS FOR ISK. YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR.
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.12.08 01:21:00 - [38] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Its used for burst damage. 2 well fitted tempests can pop a BS if Im correct. Use it for something other than NPC'ing and you'llknow. Um...first, I don't NPC with my tempest unless I'm really, really bored. My NPCing ship is my raven. Second, we're not talking about the current TQ build. On TQ, the tempest is balanced vs. the current state of tanking and ship hitpoints. In contrast, on SiSi, in the current RMR build, 1400's are distinctly inferior. (Autocannons continue to be very good, however.) -Wrayeth Go away.
Hobblin I	Posted - 2005.12.08 07:01:00 - [39] Wouldn't boosting the 1400s just make them EVEN better on an Apoc? If an Apoc with 8 1400s does more dmg per volley than a Tempest than boosting the 1400s will definitely not help the Tempest (specifically). I'm just going by some other persons post on the last page regarding an Apoc doing more burst dmg. However, artis do need some love, or the Tempest needs a tweak, taking into account the low dps of 1400s and increased tanking on sisi
Damien Vox	Posted - 2005.12.08 07:14:00 - [40] They could always add a 'negative' bonus to ships that are using a weapon that does not belong to their race (i.e. projectiles on Amarr, blasters on Minmatar, etc). Obviously this wouldn't apply to missiles on Minmatar or on ships that have missile hardpoints but it would be a way to limit things like the Apoc using projectiles and out damage ships that are supposed to be using them better then the Apoc or any other ship. Just a thought.

Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.12.08 07:37:00 - [41] I still think its funny that the fastest race with the least tanking, gets the worst overall dmg and tracking. All Minnie have going for us is too things: Speed and Explosive dmg. ~Sobe Originally by: TomB Originally by: Darpz Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi CCP will nerf this probably, but hey, worth a try so your saying I should of kept my mouth shut? Yup.
Cilppiz	Posted - 2005.12.08 08:00:00 - [42] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I still think its funny that the fastest race with the least tanking, gets the worst overall dmg and tracking. All Minnie have going for us is too things: Speed and Explosive dmg. Thats not true, soon Amarrs also have explosive damage on some t2 lenses if I recall right.
Kael D'mende	Posted - 2005.12.08 08:01:00 - [43] Just boost large projectiles, and it should be ok.. /Kael
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.12.08 08:07:00 - [44] Originally by: Cilppiz Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I still think its funny that the fastest race with the least tanking, gets the worst overall dmg and tracking. All Minnie have going for us is too things: Speed and Explosive dmg. Thats not true, soon Amarrs also have explosive damage on some t2 lenses if I recall right. There is no definitive info on t2 lenses having splosive or not...that I am aware of. ~Sobe Originally by: TomB Originally by: Darpz Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi CCP will nerf this probably, but hey, worth a try so your saying I should of kept my mouth shut? Yup.
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2005.12.08 08:15:00 - [45] The problem with artillery is three fold. The first is simply low rate of fire. In trade for the high alpha strike, the Tempest yeilds 20% gross dps to compairable Hybrids, and 30% dps to compairable laser weapons. With the higher hitpoints, Alpha stike nolonger is as meaningful in combat as that 30% worse base dps. The second is miniscule ammo clips. The typical Tempest pilot spends a full 7% of his time simply reloading, again, dramatically cutting his DPS if the fight streatches beyond a single clip. With the 25% hp increase, this is now far more common, and leave the typical Tempest firing guns now 30% to 40% behind compairable weapons. The third is the poor performance of secondary Artillery, compaired to its fitting requirements. For a mere 15% reduction in fitting requirements, one loses 30% of one's Alpha Strike, 15% of one's DPS, and 20% of one's range. When one also considers that the 1200mm Artillery II is going up against such excellent weapons as the Mega Pulse Laser II (0.457x/s at 24km) and the 350mm Rail II (0.328x/s at 43.2km), the 1200 II's 0.25098x/s at 38.6km is meager in compairison, particularly given the 3025 MW it requires to mount. It is no supprise that artillery ships perform poorly in RMR. I would propose three changes be made to remedy these problems. But before we start, let me list the numbers Mega Beam II 3.6x, 9s RoF 58tf, 3575MW 48km+16km Effective dps: 0.4 Dual Heavy Beam II 2.4x, 7.2s 47tf, 1925MW 42km+12km Effective dps: 0.33 425mm II 3.3x, 9.563s 77tf, 2625MW 5736km+24km Effective dps: 0.345 350mm II 2.4x, 7.313s 66tf, 1969MW 43.2km+20km Effective dps: 0.328 1400mm II 6.9x, 23.625s 47tf, 3575MW 48km+35km Effective dps: 0.292 1200mm II 4.8x, 19.125s 44tf, 3025MW 38.64km+35km Effective dps: 0.251 I would first propose doubling the clips on all projectile weapons. Lasers already have effectively infinite ammo clips. Hybrids have four times the ammo capacity that compairable projectiles do. This would aleviate the ammunition problems currenlty handicapping projectiles, while still leaving their flavor as an ammo limited weapon intact. I would next propse a 10% reduction in the Cycle time of all projectile turrets, or 21.2625s for 1400mm and 17.2125s for 1200mm. This would bring the dps to: Mega Beam II: 0.4 x/s 425mm II: 0.345 1400mm II: 0.3245 Dual Heavy Beam II: 0.333 x/s 350mm II: 0.328 x/s 1200mm II: 0.279 x/s This leaves artillery still by far the least damaging weapon in the game, but increases its damage over time to the point that they are at least compeditive. Finally, I would propose that 1200mm artiller recieve either an additional 5% reduction in cycle time, or a 5-10% reduction in CPU usage to better reflect it's level of performance. With the additional 5% reduction in Rof (for a total 15% reduction) the 1200 would have a base RoF of 16.2563s, for an effective dps of: Dual Heavy Beam II: 0.333 x/s 350mm II: 0.328 x/s 1200mm II: 0.295 x/s The cumulative effect would be to reduce the dps gap between Artillery and other long ranged weapons, without either making the Tempest's Alpha Strike over powering (on, indeed, altering it at all), or making the 8x1400mm II Apoc any more attractive. Additionally, 1200mm II's (and other second file artilleries) would become viable weapons for grid tight ships, such as the Typhoon, and most Minmatar Cruisers and Frigates currently bound to fitting either autocannon, or reduced 280/720/1400 sets. Harry Voyager ____________________ I'm not an idiot; I just play one on the forums.
Cilppiz	Posted - 2005.12.08 08:25:00 - [46] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Cilppiz Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I still think its funny that the fastest race with the least tanking, gets the worst overall dmg and tracking. All Minnie have going for us is too things: Speed and Explosive dmg. Thats not true, soon Amarrs also have explosive damage on some t2 lenses if I recall right. There is no definitive info on t2 lenses having splosive or not...that I am aware of. I red something about Blaze L lenses from http://evegames.hostingbig.com/eve/data/indexSisi.html but then I havent been on SiSi and dunno if that database is correct or does SiSi still have those lenses. Anyway, I wouldnt boost projectile weapons if that would make em actually work better on Amarr ships than Matar.
Vina	Posted - 2005.12.08 08:26:00 - [47] Only boost tempest needs is larger gun magazine. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2005.12.08 08:34:00 - [48] Originally by: Cilppiz Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Cilppiz Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I still think its funny that the fastest race with the least tanking, gets the worst overall dmg and tracking. All Minnie have going for us is too things: Speed and Explosive dmg. Thats not true, soon Amarrs also have explosive damage on some t2 lenses if I recall right. There is no definitive info on t2 lenses having splosive or not...that I am aware of. I red something about Blaze L lenses from http://evegames.hostingbig.com/eve/data/indexSisi.html but then I havent been on SiSi and dunno if that database is correct or does SiSi still have those lenses. Anyway, I wouldnt boost projectile weapons if that would make em actually work better on Amarr ships than Matar. Tech II crystals are already listed on the test server, and yes, Pulse Lasers can now do Explosive damage. Harry Voyager ____________________ I'm not an idiot; I just play one on the forums.
Arti K	Posted - 2005.12.08 08:56:00 - [49] Switching from em to explosive damage with a 1 second reload time is perfectly balanced.
Sun Ra	Posted - 2005.12.08 09:07:00 - [50] At least boost 1200mm so we have a decent mid range gun We're coming for you

Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.12.08 09:09:00 - [51] Originally by: Harry Voyager Originally by: Cilppiz Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Cilppiz Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I still think its funny that the fastest race with the least tanking, gets the worst overall dmg and tracking. All Minnie have going for us is too things: Speed and Explosive dmg. Thats not true, soon Amarrs also have explosive damage on some t2 lenses if I recall right. There is no definitive info on t2 lenses having splosive or not...that I am aware of. I red something about Blaze L lenses from http://evegames.hostingbig.com/eve/data/indexSisi.html but then I havent been on SiSi and dunno if that database is correct or does SiSi still have those lenses. Anyway, I wouldnt boost projectile weapons if that would make em actually work better on Amarr ships than Matar. Tech II crystals are already listed on the test server, and yes, Pulse Lasers can now do Explosive damage. Harry Voyager Actually from what I know, those are old stats and have been on SISI for awhile now. And are not the final numbers. ~Sobe Originally by: TomB Originally by: Darpz Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi CCP will nerf this probably, but hey, worth a try so your saying I should of kept my mouth shut? Yup.
Cilppiz	Posted - 2005.12.08 09:23:00 - [52] I dont know you but I eint gonna buy me a new Tempest (lost my first one a month ago) before RMR hits the server and we can actually see can it do the job or not. Maybe I finish those shield tanking skills and buy me a Cyclone. Neverless I can think up one positive thing with these changes, maybe I dont get called as primary all the time in future if Im flying a Tempest
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2005.12.08 09:26:00 - [53] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 08/12/2005 09:27:42 There is nothing wrong with the Tempest. The problem is with the DPS of artillery. The causes of this are our lower damage 'high dmg' ammo, the number of times we have to reload in battles, and the ridiculously high rate of fire on artillery. The other problem you mention being having to fit a RCU to fit anything else if you rack up with arty, is also due to weapons; we cannot choose to fit the smaller categories of artillery (eg 1200mm) because they are so bad. Some Minmatar ships need a buff...Tempest is not one of them. Though I would like to see it changed to a 6/5 instead of 5/6 mid/low layout, too.
Cilppiz	Posted - 2005.12.08 10:02:00 - [54] Anyone want to do the math if Tempest had 7 turret points with current bonuses Tempest has? Ofcourse fitting 7th 1400mm would require one RCU even with Advanced Weapon Uprgrades skill I think. So basically either Tempest PG or 1400mm PG needs would have to be chanced to make this idea valid.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2005.12.08 11:11:00 - [55] Minmatar ships arent built with specialisation that far, there's no chance of us every getting another turret hardpoint there. It's not the way our 'flavour' flows. Sort arty DPS out, sort ammo capacity out, sort out cap use on ACs. Then I'll be a happy man. PS. Obligatorily, FIX THE PHOON thx.
Acwron	Posted - 2005.12.08 11:30:00 - [56] Edited by: Acwron on 08/12/2005 11:30:18 Well the artillery Tempest is good in TQ for one reason. (well ok the 4 free mids help aswell :) In the first 10 seconds of the fight your dps is >1000 (you sort of get the first salvo for free, which e.g. hardly matters for a geddon). This is devastating in fleets and you can even kill untanked tier1 BS in 4 salvos (23 seconds). With RMR we still have the low ammo capacity (10 runds EMP L + reload make it close to impossible to kill the shield of a raven when it's not shooting at you), lower damage (not in damage mod but in RoF (8 sec. --> 9.5 secs) and of course the increased tanking.
Arleonenis	Posted - 2005.12.08 14:51:00 - [57] /SIGNED some tanking and cap improvement would be welcomed and changing one low to one med i dont want higherd dps i just want to tank tempest decently oh and one low to one med on machariel too please
GFLTorque	Posted - 2005.12.08 15:09:00 - [58] I can not see how anyone would refute the worst DOT , and worst tanking BShip of its class, would not be further crippled with decreased DOT (Gyrostab stacking) and tank boosting that is coming in RMR. The good tankers got better. The ships most dependent on Dmg Mod stacking got worse.
Tecam Hund	Posted - 2005.12.08 15:13:00 - [59] This seems to be a usual case. People want their Tempest to be able to tank mighty good and do insane damage. I fly a Tempest now and even with my crappy skills it does some incredible burst damage with 6 t1 1400mms + 5 t2 gyrostabs. Damage output will go down after RMR, but instead of gyrostabs you get to fit other modules, like possibly tracking enchancers or newly updated damage control mods for effective structure tanking . In any case, if someone thinks that Tempest is getting nerfed because you can't fit 5-6 gyrostabs anymore - learn to adapt, its a fair change. If you just think that Tempest isn't good as it is, you are wrong, every ship has its role and Tempest isn't a tanking ship for prolonged battles.
GFLTorque	Posted - 2005.12.08 15:17:00 - [60] Edited by: GFLTorque on 08/12/2005 15:20:39 Originally by: Tecam Hund This seems to be a usual case. People want their Tempest to be able to tank mighty good and do insane damage. In any case, if someone thinks that Tempest is getting nerfed because you can't fit 5-6 gyrostabs anymore - learn to adapt, its a fair change. If you just think that Tempest isn't good as it is, you are wrong, every ship has its role and Tempest isn't a tanking ship for prolonged battles. With all do respect, I've flown Tempest for a couple of years with massive Stain fleets, with m0o with MASS with Finite Horizon. Burst damage is just fine when your numbers exceed the numbers of ppl your attacking, or if you fighting smaller ships. Some of us fight outnumbered, and against equal sized ships. The point here is the Tempest in RMR is neither uber DMG dealer, or uber tanker. That would be ok, if it were a mediocre tank for the longer battles OR mediocre DOT dealer for the longer battles.



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