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Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.09 17:14:00 - [121] Originally by: Trey Azagthoth EDIT: By insane damage I mean, 2 or 3 volleying a BS... Well, 2-3 volleying a BS with 15s rof and with 5s rof is not the same. As said by Trey, tempest can't do it right now, it's more like 5 volleys. And with RMR, it'll be even more volley. And naughty's graphs show that alpha strike advantage of tempest is negated after 30-40s max of fight. 40s is roughly the time needed to fire 5 volleys on a pest, which means other ships will do more damage over a fight with the same moderate tank (or better) than an arty pest. And as pointed out, pest is not the problem, it's arty (autopest works fine, artys have issues on all ships). Alpha strike usefulness is nerfed outside of gank situation when you outnumber the ennemy, fight last longer, bringing in the issue with ammo clip sizes, as artys are the weapon with the lowest base DPS and which spend the most time reloading. Originally by: Tanthius I'm not signing this, and I fly a Tempest. It works fine. Well, the thread is not about current performances of tempest, but about RMR (ie. SiSi) performances of artypest. From what you said it doesn't look like you tested artypest on SiSi, so your comment adds nothing to the thread. Still, the issue is not with tempest, but, again, with artys post RMR as a whole. Originally by: DarK The cluetrain obviously doesn't stop at this station anymore...
Megadon	Posted - 2005.12.09 17:31:00 - [122] Edited by: Megadon on 09/12/2005 17:30:52 Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: Megadon Seems like some gun users are going to have to brush up on their missiles skills. 6 turrets and 4 launcher hardpoints in those 8 slots. Tech 2 cruise missiles. thats basically what ppl would avoid at any chance because you can never win this race. Imagine a megathron having 6 slots accepting hybrids and 2 slots accepting laser weapons and you come close to what the problem is. No minni pilot will ever be specialized fully on proj and missiles. especially as those missile slots get no ship bonus to boost them up. we are more talking about NOS/neuts/defenders and Smartbombs here. As unboosted sieges or cruises dont cut it really for the fitting hassle. Yeah I hear you, but if you're going for pure damage output, it makes sense. It doesn't take 5 million sp's in missiles to be able to use cruises effectively. But i would imagine advanced weapons upgrade lvl 5 would be mandatory anyway along with a lot of other things. Minmatar are a tough race because you have to have more sp's than any other race to really get the most out of their ships. Very high skills in gunnery, armor, shield, drones and missiles. They're like 4 races rolled into one. Consequently, they're the most vulnerable to nerfs it seems.
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.12.09 17:34:00 - [123] Originally by: Kaylana Syi This far into the game I don't believe drastic changes such as swapping a mid for a low or changing a bonus is very well planned out. Some things need to be left alone when it is not the ship in question that is in need of balace. The Battleships are all fine when you compare them to each other and their bonii. The only exceptions to this I could see is when a role is broke at the ship level... You start well, thats something we can agree on ! Quote: Megathrons and Typhoons for instance (which are not bad ships in themselves _quite_the_contrary _ but have a missing stat, slot, or bonii for their respective roles.) However, the Tempest's role is not broke at the ship level and it is supposed to fit somewhere, tank wise, between a shield tanking raven and an armor tanking megathron OR have the fleet versatility as an Apoc. It does this at the ship level. So lets move on to what is really going to pot in RMR : Arti's. There is not a single role for a ship, basically a bs is just the raw unit from which you form either the batmobile or the icetruck. Quote: 1200, especially 1200 IIs are fine on TQ. They aren't so fine in RMR for PvP. Sorry 1200ers were never in any way or form fine on TQ. They simply suck and any can i found with those guns in made me laugh, hard. The issues of the arties is that there is just 1, the 1400er while the other is far inferior in basically everything. That u can fit it nicely together with the other slots in one of your setups means not much, you could keep the slots open and fit better stuff in the lows aswell, same result. By long practise, various tests and numbercrunching i can wholeheartly say that there is not a single reason to fit a 1200 be it t2 or not in its current form. You could fit beamlasers or hybrids and prolly make more of an impact Quote: On the tempest on SiSi, which can shield tank quite nicely, a 1200 II w. shield tank feels like a TQ Scorpion. Sure it can sit there and take it but is unable to really dish out more than a slap on the hand. On SiSi a 1400 II tempest with a modest tank feels less than an armageddon with a tank + beams. EW might well be the way to go but the Fleet ship role the Tempest has is broken. Thats wrong. The fleetrole if any will be the one mostly untouched unless your fleet had "just" enough ships to kill someone in a single volley. With the hitpoint increase you will just need 3-4 more ppl shooting the target. So in fleets above 14bs the role of a tempest is very much the same. The tempest suffers far more in smaller groups, but u hardly use 1400ers there anyways :D Quote: ACs are just fine but they didn't really get a boost per se, Shield tanking is just more viable now which opens up a slot or two for Gyro IIs. Ammo is still a big issue with these ships. Arty compared to missiles is pretty pathetic. Both need distance wich need your tackler in small skirmish and in Fleets torps/cruise should work much better by default. ACs are actually ok, just the reload screws things up. Shieldtanking was always an option for ac tempests but with the dmg mod nerf i actually think ure better off with EW in the mids and a 3-4 slot tank. However you were never able to fit torps or cms on a real longrange tempest and anyone who did should reconsider to fly caldari.
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.12.09 17:35:00 - [124] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 09/12/2005 17:35:28 Quote: To remedy the arty suckage I think decreasing the RoF of both 1200 IIs and 1400 II and increase, as dalman suggested, the capacity of the heaviest ammo to 15 or 20 for the 1400 II. If that proved to be more whacky if amarr would start to use them again then the RoF bonii of the Minnie ships could be adjusted to 7.5% per lvl instead of 5%. As long as the roles stay the same the ship itself is fine. If CCP want to pencil in new roles for battleships than they need to come out with it before any major changes so it doesn't upset the userbase like City of Heroes/SWG has done in the last few months. On the final statement however we are back on the same paper ;)
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.12.09 18:26:00 - [125] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 09/12/2005 18:27:35 Quote: Sorry 1200ers were never in any way or form fine on TQ. 1200 IIs are a shield tanker's gun. 1400 IIs are a volley gank gun. Tempests that go for shield tanking use 1200 IIs an can still fit _other_useful_modules_. Not to mention 1200 IIs == 1400 Is so they aren't completely useless especially on a Typhoon. But lets not digress a pointless argument since the current state of guns is going bye bye. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Phlaago Rexor	Posted - 2005.12.09 19:07:00 - [126] Originally by: Agorander Originally by: Phlaago Rexor Edited by: Phlaago Rexor on 09/12/2005 11:28:29 Edited by: Phlaago Rexor on 09/12/2005 11:27:44 Originally by: dalman I just hate it when all you guys try to "show" that you need a boost when you clearly do not. <snip> How convinient that you completely ignore that the tempest has a dual damage bonus. Counting with ship skills, the 1400mm do more DPS than a 425mm rail (even with the 44 vs 48 base ammo). k? I won't disagree with lowering the fitting reqs on the 1200 a bit though. As long as they fix blasters :p And the guys whining about autocannons needing a boost... using shortrange ammo the 1400mm II on the pest does about 3.44% more damage per second than 425mm II on a mega but you have 7 of them.. we are stuck with only 6. mega with full rack of 425mm II does more damage than tempest with full rack of 1400mm II, 12.78% more to be exact. Edit: both numbers are with EMP L for the howie and Antimatter L for the rail. Edit2: gyros or magstabs are not taken into account since they will be identical for both ships in rmr. Sure, your pest can get the dps of the Mega... if you also accept adopting the capuse of hybrids, being fixed to the two worst damagetypes... I find it hilarious that Minmatars demand to be on top in every single aspect, should Gallente/Hybridusers get no benefit at all for the drawbacks of our systems? Why would it be fair for you to have all the strengths of hybrids but none of the drawbacks? (Which as it happens is already the case in autocannons vs Blasters, but that doesnt mean you should get an equally good deal in howies vs Rails) I'd like to clarify this: I'm not demanding anything, I just felt i had to point out some numbers about the "allmighty" 1400... the megathron has at least one foot in the same boat as the pest when it comes to the RMR changes, its not a super tank either and the difference in damage between them is not exactly skyhigh. But the railmega does in fact deal more damage than the artypest, neither ship when fitting a full rack of the biggest guns has much of a tank going for it... if any.
xKillaH	Posted - 2005.12.09 20:49:00 - [127] signed! totally agreed!
Drunkeh	Posted - 2005.12.09 21:49:00 - [128] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 09/12/2005 18:27:35 Quote: Sorry 1200ers were never in any way or form fine on TQ. 1200 IIs are a shield tanker's gun. 1400 IIs are a volley gank gun. Tempests that go for shield tanking use 1200 IIs an can still fit _other_useful_modules_. Not to mention 1200 IIs == 1400 Is so they aren't completely useless especially on a Typhoon. But lets not digress a pointless argument since the current state of guns is going bye bye. You realize that a 425 II would do more damage on a typhoon than a 1200 II? Therefore compltely refuting your point? Originally by: Omeega I R NO WORK. I SELL MY KIDS FOR ISK. YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.12.09 22:51:00 - [129] Originally by: Drunkeh Originally by: Kaylana Syi Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 09/12/2005 18:27:35 Quote: Sorry 1200ers were never in any way or form fine on TQ. 1200 IIs are a shield tanker's gun. 1400 IIs are a volley gank gun. Tempests that go for shield tanking use 1200 IIs an can still fit _other_useful_modules_. Not to mention 1200 IIs == 1400 Is so they aren't completely useless especially on a Typhoon. But lets not digress a pointless argument since the current state of guns is going bye bye. You realize that a 425 II would do more damage on a typhoon than a 1200 II? Therefore compltely refuting your point? ok... my point was that 1200 IIs allow for shield tanking on ships which demand capacitor. Last time I looked... 425mm IIs took 10x more cap than a 1200mm and eats 26 more CPU x 4 that is 104 less cpu for shield tanking modules. Refuting my point? So, less cap... less cpu... refute my point did I? Not that I was trying to make the case for shield tanking a phoon mind you... but if you need a snipe setup on a phoon and you need to run a shield booster for any interceptors then you need a buff while your drones can make work of those pesky ships. Using 1400mm IIs may or may not be a better option for some configs... as the extra pgrid could be used for other stuff cruise launchers which also use cpu. more Damage != instant win Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.12.10 00:25:00 - [130] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 10/12/2005 00:26:57 if u want to shieldtank a arty setup, fit a pdu 2 and u should be able to fit a 3 slot tank XL t2 + 2 t2 hardeners, 2 dmg mods 2 tracking mod, might even squeeze the named rocketlaunchers in that one. will be tight down to below 10 cpu, might need to switch a t2 hardener for a t1 meta and it will fit for sure. cm launchers are useless on a sniper arty setup in bigger groups as the missiles never hit gold anyways. so the typhoon isnt the best example really, especially as it has no arty rof or dmg bonuses to boost its alpha strike or dot, especially not with 1200ers.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2005.12.10 00:46:00 - [131] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 10/12/2005 00:48:25 Originally by: Kaylana Syi 1200, especially 1200 IIs are fine on TQ. If ever there was doubt about your posts - that just cleared it all up. But seriously.....1200 arty is not fine. The larger arty DPs is laughable, the smaller of each category may as well be non existant. Arty just needs fixing. It's not a debatable fact when you look at all the numbers around, such as in the other(tm) thread. Are we going to see a fix? From the lack of any official response so far, I think not any time soon. <sarcasm>But who needs arty, right? We've been given great small and medium ships. Therefore our large ships can be forgotten about, as we're 'balanced'</sarcasm> WTB sig, 10m ISK. Must not include lame images of ships. Must be comical. Must include Minmatar-whining related comment. Kthx.
aNtis0cial	Posted - 2005.12.10 01:19:00 - [132] Edited by: aNtis0cial on 10/12/2005 01:24:07 signed! I only fly minmatar and I do belive that the tempest is going to be the worst tier 1 bs after the RMR and that most tier 2 bs will be able toc outdmg/outtank the tempest (like the geddon and domi both ships can do higher dps and can tank better), what made me train for it? it was the alpha-strike on arties but after the RMR that too is going down the toillet. So whats the point CCP? :) It's not hard to notice that the dev's have no idea how to balance the game. the new changes need more testing and adjustments.
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.10 01:23:00 - [133] Originally by: aNtis0cial signed! I only fly minmatar and I do belive that the tempest is going to be the worst tier 1 bs after the RMR and that even tier 2 bs can outdmg/outtank the tempest, what made me train for it? it was the alpha-strike on arties but after the RMR that to is going down the toilet. So whats the point CCP? :) I guess you swaped tier 1 and tier 2 bs Typhoon will beat it as a crapier BS though I guess Originally by: DarK The cluetrain obviously doesn't stop at this station anymore...
Arti K	Posted - 2005.12.10 13:34:00 - [134] I have mixed feelings about the RMR typhoon, mostly it has too little armor to effectively armor tank like any other 7 lowslot BS, and the 4/4 turret/missile with the most useless bonuses known to man aren't that great either.
DeepfriedTator	Posted - 2005.12.10 15:57:00 - [135] awww no more gate camping... awww poor soul.. guess no more one volley kills.. damn the luck..
Wulfgard	Posted - 2005.12.10 18:09:00 - [136] Not sure if increasing Tempest Burst dmg is what the Devs will have in mind. How about giving it some "staying power" (i.e tanking luv) And while you're at it Fix the Phoon bonus once and for all
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.12.10 18:29:00 - [137] Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 10/12/2005 00:48:25 Originally by: Kaylana Syi 1200, especially 1200 IIs are fine on TQ. If ever there was doubt about your posts - that just cleared it all up. But seriously.....1200 arty is not fine. The larger arty DPs is laughable, the smaller of each category may as well be non existant. Arty just needs fixing. It's not a debatable fact when you look at all the numbers around, such as in the other(tm) thread. Are we going to see a fix? From the lack of any official response so far, I think not any time soon. <sarcasm>But who needs arty, right? We've been given great small and medium ships. Therefore our large ships can be forgotten about, as we're 'balanced'</sarcasm> if you think everything should be an uberbbqmobile then sure. But if you think a 1200II should work like a 1400 II then your dreaming. If you think that every setup with 1200 IIs suck... I am glad I am not limited to your PoV. The fact is that 1200 IIs aren't that bad on TQ as people make them out to be. There are plenty things wrong with every gun except the megapulse to toss your logic out the window. 1200 IIs, like a geat deal of othe guns in EVE, can use some love but they are far from worthless. We can swap race arguments for every race and find something in each class that just doesn't add up right. DPS on teh 1200 II is one of the things that might keep them from your ships and people who play like you but thank the eve gods the game doesn't revolve around you. Get past the DPS and look at other aspecs of the gun before you start crying wolf and yo might just find a useful role for it. Said it time and time again... every class, gun, ship, etc should be worked out a bit better than it is but that is neither here nor there and in RMR arties SUCK so you have kay's seal of approval on that issue you been waiting for me to chime in with for the last month. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Kael D'mende	Posted - 2005.12.10 18:42:00 - [138] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 10/12/2005 00:48:25 Originally by: Kaylana Syi 1200, especially 1200 IIs are fine on TQ. If ever there was doubt about your posts - that just cleared it all up. But seriously.....1200 arty is not fine. The larger arty DPs is laughable, the smaller of each category may as well be non existant. Arty just needs fixing. It's not a debatable fact when you look at all the numbers around, such as in the other(tm) thread. Are we going to see a fix? From the lack of any official response so far, I think not any time soon. <sarcasm>But who needs arty, right? We've been given great small and medium ships. Therefore our large ships can be forgotten about, as we're 'balanced'</sarcasm> if you think everything should be an uberbbqmobile then sure. But if you think a 1200II should work like a 1400 II then your dreaming. If you think that every setup with 1200 IIs suck... I am glad I am not limited to your PoV. The fact is that 1200 IIs aren't that bad on TQ as people make them out to be. There are plenty things wrong with every gun except the megapulse to toss your logic out the window. 1200 IIs, like a geat deal of othe guns in EVE, can use some love but they are far from worthless. We can swap race arguments for every race and find something in each class that just doesn't add up right. DPS on teh 1200 II is one of the things that might keep them from your ships and people who play like you but thank the eve gods the game doesn't revolve around you. Get past the DPS and look at other aspecs of the gun before you start crying wolf and yo might just find a useful role for it. Said it time and time again... every class, gun, ship, etc should be worked out a bit better than it is but that is neither here nor there and in RMR arties SUCK so you have kay's seal of approval on that issue you been waiting for me to chime in with for the last month. try putting some 720 II on that instead of 1200 II and u will see ;O) /Kael
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.12.10 18:49:00 - [139] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 10/12/2005 18:51:22 I'm not to bothered about 1200mm sucking on tq, it's the part about them sucking in RMR that's more worrying. Max damage with them post RMR is ~400 dps with 3 gyro t2, ~425 dps with 4 gyro t2 which is hardly impressive. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. --- Spreadsheet - Damage @ range (updated).
Arti K	Posted - 2005.12.11 00:20:00 - [140] Edited by: Arti K on 11/12/2005 00:23:14 Originally by: Naughty Boy Edited by: Naughty Boy on 10/12/2005 18:51:22 I'm not to bothered about 1200mm sucking on tq, it's the part about them sucking in RMR that's more worrying. Max damage with them post RMR is ~400 dps with 3 gyro t2, ~425 dps with 4 gyro t2 which is hardly impressive. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. If amarr t2 crystals really do get explosive damage, I know what race I'll be training for the next 3 months... 8x tachyon t2 will be the best sniper setup in RMR And whoever said that the tempest and 1400mm II's are the uberpwnmobile for sniping everything -- not really. Only really awful terrible frig pilots die to 1400mm II's except to random wrecking shots (which I find funny tbh). Their tracking is obscenely low and if you can manage a 200 m/s transversal they can't touch you in a frig.
HonorHarrington	Posted - 2005.12.11 00:28:00 - [141] wow can we fix the phoon first? Its the the agreed worst bs in the game, just give is 5 hardpoints and a damage mod for some flexibility and I would be a happy person, I meant even do a hobbit dance on a pub table.
Blitz Hacker	Posted - 2005.12.11 06:43:00 - [142] I would like to add to this; even on higher end arti is losing ground as is autos. one of the prime bonuses of the tempest and proj's in general was the variation of damage types. with more blanket resists it hurts. Tech2 ammo allows lazers to use explosive damage. Tech2 ammo allows hybrids to use EM damage. Tech2 ammo allows Projectiles to; do the same low dps as we already have access to all damage types. I think it needs a look no so much as the tempest does; but the guns we use. -Blitz-

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