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Esotera
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Posted - 2005.12.08 12:09:00 -
[1]
I would like to start a debate.
My views on this are as follows:
In TQ you need going by the modules description and skills needed Squadron Command V and Wing Commander I to use a Command processor. You need this to run more than one gang module at the same time. (what it says if you try)
Now the new T2 BC (only gang boosting ones I'm on about here) have had there requirements dropped to Squadron Command IV on SISI from Và. And given the ability to use 3 at the same timeà.
My question is how can you use 3 modules at the same time with less skill requirements that no TQ on a T1 BC. Oh and also why have you got to have logistics IV on a gang boosting BCà that also makes no senseà.
I would suggest that you need to have following skills for a T2 GANG Boosting BC:
Squadron Command V
Wing Commander IV
Then you could use the ship and all 3 gang boost at the same time. I know I for one have trained Squadron V as all the skills to use more than one gang boosting module needs this skill at V.
These are specialized GANG specific ships and should have higher skill requirements than a std T2 BC.
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HeadWar
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Posted - 2005.12.08 12:24:00 -
[2]
I agree, except I think that both Command Ships should have Squadron Command 5, not just the Fleet Command one. These are Command Ships, after all, and part of the beauty of it is that you won't fly them unless you really dedicate your training towards it.
By reducing the skill requirement to Squadron Command 4, you are reducing the Command Ships to super HACs, easily available to those who already are dedicated combat characters, with high Perception and Willpower, and low Charisma.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.12.08 12:32:00 -
[3]
ôIn TQ you need going by the modules description and skills needed Squadron Command V and Wing Commander I to use a Command processor.ö
You donÆt need Wing Command, where did you get that from? But I agree The new ships should need Squadron Command V
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Esotera
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Posted - 2005.12.08 12:35:00 -
[4]
If you want to use command processor you need Squadron V and Wing commder I
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.12.08 12:40:00 -
[5]
ôIf you want to use command processor you need Squadron V and Wing commder Iö
No you donÆt. For starters the Wing Comm skill book is not out. Secondly command processor donÆt need it. Go check the modules.
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mimik
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Posted - 2005.12.08 12:51:00 -
[6]
there doesn't have to be a skill link between the ship and the potential mods u can fit on it.
the pre reqs for the ship allow u to fly the ship only. if u want to take advantage of the additional mods then u need the skills for the mods.
a geddon gives u a bonus to large energy turrets but u dont need to have large energy turrets trained to be able to fly the ship.
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Esotera
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Posted - 2005.12.08 12:54:00 -
[7]
I take back that you need wing command skill for a the command processor.... Still does not change my main reason for wanting the skills to be changed.
Thank you for correcting me.
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Esotera
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Posted - 2005.12.08 12:56:00 -
[8]
Mimik
You seem to miss the point of the post.. I'm saying that the skills need to fly the GANG T2 BC should be as I have stated.... As the T2 BC says it can use 3 gang boost mod's without a command processor...
Does that help you.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2005.12.08 13:00:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 08/12/2005 12:48:05
ôIf you want to use command processor you need Squadron V and Wing commder Iö
No you donÆt. For starters the Wing Command skill book is not out. Secondly command processor donÆt need it, go check the modules. Lastly its called Wing Command not Commander.
Nah, she's actually trying to say that you need a (boxed, original - pirated won't do) copy of Wing Commander I before they let you fly a T2 BC
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Esotera
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Posted - 2005.12.08 13:22:00 -
[10]
Please can we keep this free of silly replys. I'm trying to make a point about skill needs here for a new T2 Ship.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.12.08 13:34:00 -
[11]
ôthere doesn't have to be a skill link between the ship and the potential mods u can fit on it.ö
ôa geddon gives u a bonus to large energy turrets but u dont need to have large energy turrets trained to be able to fly the ship.ö
The difference here is the ship has the modules built in, not as an extra fitted module. Would you be happy for a geddon with a built in energy turret to be useable by someone without the needed energy turret skill? ThatÆs whatÆs happening with TC BC's they have modules built into them which everyone else has to train up to use.
ThatÆs why I agree with Esotera if a ship has built in modules the same skills to use the modules should be in the list to fly the ship.
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Esotera
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Posted - 2005.12.08 13:37:00 -
[12]
Thank you Pottsey well put... Now we just need to convince the dev's of this error...
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Menelak Faf
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Posted - 2005.12.08 13:40:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 08/12/2005 12:48:05
ôIf you want to use command processor you need Squadron V and Wing commder Iö
No you donÆt. For starters the Wing Command skill book is not out. Secondly command processor donÆt need it, go check the modules. Lastly its called Wing Command not Commander.
Nah, she's actually trying to say that you need a (boxed, original - pirated won't do) copy of Wing Commander I before they let you fly a T2 BC
I may actually have one of those around here somewhere...
SoonÖ is relative. |
Denrace
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Posted - 2005.12.08 13:51:00 -
[14]
Here is the solution:
There are two types of T2 BC's right?
 The HAC version
The Fleet Command Version
So, for the HAC version, make its requirement HEAVY ASSAULT SHIPS level 5.
And make the Fleet Command one need SQUADRON COMMAND level 5.
I fail to see how anyone without HAC/Squad Command level 5 deserves to pilot a T2 BC. They should be for absolute specialists alone.
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mimik
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Posted - 2005.12.08 13:51:00 -
[15]
Edited by: mimik on 08/12/2005 13:51:12
my apologies - i misread your post - i thought u were querying why the ship had a different set of pre reqs from a mod that could be used on said ship. i didn't realise that u automatically get the same ability from the ship itself without having trained the skills.
looking at it from another angle u require the racial BS skill at level 1 to fly a typhoon or dominix. to use more than 5 drones on a typhoon however u need drone interfacing where the bonus on a domi allows u to use a 6th drone without having the required pre req. isn't that the same as here ie the ships own bonus allows it to do things that other ships need an extra skill for as it is specialised in that role?
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Esotera
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Posted - 2005.12.08 13:53:00 -
[16]
Denrace,
That is my point completely.... Its a specific ship... The T2 GANG BOOSTING ship should have Sqaudron V as needed skill at the moment they have made it IV...
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Jim'ard Stone
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Posted - 2005.12.08 14:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Denrace
So, for the HAC version, make its requirement HEAVY ASSAULT SHIPS level 5.
You cant really do that without upsetting the nice skill tree ccp has laid - as if your guna do that you'll need to make HAC's require Assault ships 5.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2005.12.08 14:13:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jim'ard Stone
Originally by: Denrace
So, for the HAC version, make its requirement HEAVY ASSAULT SHIPS level 5.
You cant really do that without upsetting the nice skill tree ccp has laid - as if your guna do that you'll need to make HAC's require Assault ships 5.
So? Then change that too. Should have been like that from the start anyway.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Esotera
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Posted - 2005.12.08 14:19:00 -
[19]
Guys can we please keep this on topic.
This is about making T2 GANG BOOSTING BC need Squadron V at least (and Wing Command IV I think)
Not other ships or skill needs.
ty
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.12.08 14:20:00 -
[20]
ôon a domi allows u to use a 6th drone without having the required pre req. isn't that the same as here ie the ships own bonus allows it to do things that other ships need an extra skill for as it is specialised in that role?ö
Not quite the same as the Domi you do need the pre required skills before you can use the bonusÆs and you cannot use that 6th drone without having the drone skills.
The way to treat the Domi bonusÆs is it adds +1 to your drone skill level and adds +1 to the level cap so in effect you have a level 6 skill or at max level it becomes a level 10 skill. The Domi is not letting you fit new stuff only increasing the skill cap.
The TC2 BC is letting you use a module that the T1 pilots have to train up 1.2 million skill points for.
The Fleet Command ship should need those 1.2mill skill points trained before you can fly it. ItÆs not right that the T2 leadership based ships needs less leadership skills to fly then the T1.
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Esotera
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Posted - 2005.12.08 14:21:00 -
[21]
Again Pottsey a great reply :)
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.12.08 14:46:00 -
[22]
Edited by: j0sephine on 08/12/2005 14:47:08
"The TC2 BC is letting you use a module that the T1 pilots have to train up 1.2 million skill points for.
The Fleet Command ship should need those 1.2mill skill points trained before you can fly it. ItÆs not right that the T2 leadership based ships needs less leadership skills to fly then the T1."
No, the fleet command ship allows you to do more than tech.1 equivalent, lessening the need to use the module which costs some extra skill points. This is balanced out by increased amount of skill points required to fly the ship in the first place, when compared to tech.1 version.
Everyone who complains this is not fair... by the same logic it's not fair tech.2 assault ships come with built in equivalents of at least one extra damage mod, sometimes tracking enhancers, passive shield/armour hardeners, and multitude other modules... without requiring you to actually train skills needed to install these modules, and without forcing you to spend slots on fitting them. This is simply a benefit you get for picking tech.2 ship.
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Esotera
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Posted - 2005.12.08 14:52:00 -
[23]
Originally by: j0sephine
Edited by: j0sephine on 08/12/2005 14:47:08
"The TC2 BC is letting you use a module that the T1 pilots have to train up 1.2 million skill points for.
The Fleet Command ship should need those 1.2mill skill points trained before you can fly it. ItÆs not right that the T2 leadership based ships needs less leadership skills to fly then the T1."
No, the fleet command ship allows you to do more than tech.1 equivalent, lessening the need to use the module which costs some extra skill points. This is balanced out by increased amount of skill points required to fly the ship in the first place, when compared to tech.1 version.
Everyone who complains this is not fair... by the same logic it's not fair tech.2 assault ships come with built in equivalents of at least one extra damage mod, sometimes tracking enhancers, passive shield/armour hardeners, and multitude other modules... without requiring you to actually train skills needed to install these modules, and without forcing you to spend slots on fitting them. This is simply a benefit you get for picking tech.2 ship.
I think your missing the point of my original post j0sephine...
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.12.08 14:54:00 -
[24]
No, i think she got it perfectly.
Squardon V is not necessary nor needed, the issue of needing more skills to use command processors is a non-issue.
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Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
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TerrorWOLF
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Posted - 2005.12.08 14:54:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Denrace
Here is the solution:
There are two types of T2 BC's right?
The HAC version
The Fleet Command Version
So, for the HAC version, make its requirement HEAVY ASSAULT SHIPS level 5.
And make the Fleet Command one need SQUADRON COMMAND level 5.
I fail to see how anyone without HAC/Squad Command level 5 deserves to pilot a T2 BC. They should be for absolute specialists alone.
Denrace stop it with your HEAVY ASSAULT SHIPS level 5 the T2 BCs aren't assault ships with more damage (i don't see the speed end agility), they are something different. I can understand it that they need Squadron Command 5 like it was (but i am happy they put it to 4) but not Heavy Assault Ships. I specialist in BCs because i like them even before there was talk about the T2s coming out and people laugh and say i was stupid. I fell good in one. If you specialized in HACs and put Heavy Assault Ships to 5 its your thing but Command Ships aren't HACs and don't force other players to do thing you have done because you wanted it to do.
May Your Death Be Slow And Painful
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Esotera
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Posted - 2005.12.08 15:01:00 -
[26]
keepiru,
I think you are also missing my point.... You need to have Squadron V to us a command processor to run more than 1 GANG mod in a T1 BC... Why would you need less skills to use a T2.. Needing Squadron V should be a PRIMARY skill needed for a T2 GANG BOOSTING BC...
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HeadWar
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Posted - 2005.12.08 15:13:00 -
[27]
Edited by: HeadWar on 08/12/2005 15:15:15
Here's another thought. How about instead of requiring racial cruiser lvl 5, require one of the Advanced Warfare skills at lvl 5, for each of the race pairs. For example, the Minmatar ones would require Advanced Skirmish Warfare lvl 5. (Or lvl 4, if lvl 5 is deemed too high. In some way emphasise that these are COMMAND ships, not mainly combat ships.)
I see these ships as a great way to finally reward those people who have high Charisma. (Not that I do, but it's not uber low either, like people who knew what they were doing when picking attributes.)
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.12.08 15:17:00 -
[28]
Edited by: j0sephine on 08/12/2005 15:20:20
"I think your missing the point of my original post j0sephine..."
No, i think we just see it a bit different ^^
* the squadron ships allow one to do the gang support work without requiring the exact same skills that one would need to do the same work, using tech.1 ship (which forces you to fit extra modules)
but
* the squadron ships require different, enhanced set of skills to be used, when compared to that tech.1 ship from previous point.
you might see it as irrelevant if you already have these additional skills trained, but for anyone who hasn't the amount of training they'll have to do in order to use that tech.2 ship ... will be even more extensive than training for that one module for tech.1 ship. Having the need to train the skills needed for that module delayed... is sort of "reward" they get for training for that particular tech.2 ship. And it's not reqlly different from how many other tech.2 ships are, in comparison to their tech.1 versions.
And well, this is all caused in the first place by the silly requirement of Squadron Command 5 on the command processor. Which just proves the point i've been making for a while, how CCP is making mistake imo with plastering lvl.5 requirements on everything lately, in futile attempt to delay people who's been playing for 1-2 years from being able to operate these things quickly after they're introduced. Now it just came and bit them in the ass -- amount of piled up lvl.5 requirements grew to the point where it's completely silly, but when they back out of it, this is "unfair" for people who already trained these skills to lvl.5 just so they'd use individual modules.
Possible solution? change the command processor requirements to Squadron Command 2 or 3. (it's tech.1 module, requiring lvl.5 of skill with lvl.5 pre-requirement on it is absolutely nuts) Then change the skill itself so that it resembles the drone control skill ... i.e. each level of Squadron Command trained past the level required to use processors, allows to use one more command processor. So if requirement is lvl.3, somene with lvl.3 can use 1 processor, someone with lvl.4 can use 2 of them, etc.
this way ships can have reasonable requirements, while people who already trained that skill fully still have better abilities than those who didn't ... as they're able to operate more gang modules than anyone else.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2005.12.08 15:25:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Esotera
keepiru,
I think you are also missing my point.... You need to have Squadron V to us a command processor to run more than 1 GANG mod in a T1 BC... Why would you need less skills to use a T2.. Needing Squadron V should be a PRIMARY skill needed for a T2 GANG BOOSTING BC...
I understand what you mean perfectly, I simply fail to see it as a problem.
Id explain it more but, j0s is much better at explaining stuff than i am, and seems to think about the same way i do vis-a-vis this issue.
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Where are the named 800mm Plates and Mega Ions, CCP?
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.12.08 15:35:00 -
[30]
If you look at the build requirements all the gang mods are actually tech 2 mods with just a tech1 labling.
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