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Rells
Fusillade.
32
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Posted - 2013.07.13 03:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
There is one clear reason why people in Eve cant do PvP. The simple reason is because they believe they can't. Once you have made up your mind that something can't be done, you will not be able to do it. You will then be in the grip of the self-fulfilling prophecy. Because you dont think it can be done you wont do your best, you will hold back at critical junctures, hesitate at the important moment or pull back when you should press the attack.
I founded Agony Unleashed with my alt Keersom (RIP) in .. was it 2006? Time flies. For years I captained the corp before turning it over to Bamar who has now passed it on to Gizznitt. During that time we proved conclusively that conventional wisdom was what comes out of the south in of a northbound male bovine. I originally founded Agony because I was sick of being told to get in a big battleship (at the time they were the flavor of the year) and sit at 150km sniping at opponents. I thought that there was a better way to play the game, that frigs could be made to hurt the opponent.
I believe agony was a principal player in changing pvp in eve to make people think more out of the box. We took out classes of people who had never fired at another player. We put them in tech 1 frigs fitted with market cheap stuff and proved to them that if they coordinated their communication, their tactics and their fit, they could destroy opponents with years of skillpoints in massively expensive ships. People constantly tried to use smartbombs on the frig fleets and lost their expensive battleship for their efforts. We flew into null sec space with crowds of rookies and fleets learned to avoid the class gangs. In the process we taught playyers about communication, scouting, recon, ship fitting for teamwork and so on.
At one point a class was started to fly destroyers. The forums flamed like a supernova at the announcement. In the first encounter with an eagle, the covert ops scout dropped us 10km off the eagle and only 3 of my guns went off. The 20 destroyers in the gang, flown by newbie pilots, vaporized the expensive HAC in a single shot. Later the class grew and at one point the 30 destroyer class (near the max manageable limit) got into a fight with multiple battleships and HACs and destroyed them all. Sure they took casualties but all were elated. We remembered to tell the rookie pvp pilots to breathe afterward because we knew the people behind the computers would be shaking from adrenaline.
Later agony pilots fitted up some tech 1 frigs and had a bit of fun. They sat off a gate and waited to be attacked by a passing interceptor. What the interceptor didn't know is the pilot of the frig was waiting for just this occurrence. There is no rush in eve quite equal to killing an interceptor with a tech 1 frig and any pilot that can fit tech 2 weapons can do it with the right skills and tactics.
We were a small corp and often confronted with largely superior forces. Imagine the massive gate camps with tackler interceptors, interdictors and other ships. Now imagine they are rendered importent by a gang of 15 destroyers with long range weapons. All of their smal craft must flee or die. Tactics prevail.
And the ultimate in possibilites occurred when agony discovered whenever they went out Razor alliance would come after them with 60 HACs. With no more than 20 people online at the time, it was quite the challenge. Imagine the astonishment of our neighbors when the word went out that Agony wiped out almost the entire fleet with less than 20 pilots. Nothing in gaming can top that kind of rush.
When you say you can, when you believe it, you will find a way. When your opponent becomes predictable, they are easy to defeat. When your opponent uses standard tactics, they can be defeated. Defeat wont always be wiping out the whole fleet or destroyeing their POS. It might be just making their lives miserable. When a high sec corp is war deced by another and turns tail, the war dec corps wins. When they fight back with tactics, skill, coordination and goals, they make the war dec corp withdraw their dec with losses and the high sec corp gains respect.
I have no respect for sheep. But i have the highest respect for the small little wolverine that makes the grizly bear think "im not THAT hungry"
In there lies the key. Winning in Eve isnt a matter of skill points or isk. Its a matter of intelligence, understanding of technology and proficien |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
2905
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Posted - 2013.07.13 03:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Quality Rells Poasting.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Gneeznow
L'Avant Garde
76
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Posted - 2013.07.13 03:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Listen to the man, he knows what he's talking about. Good pilots in cheap ships will always be better than drones in expensive ones. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1325
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Posted - 2013.07.13 03:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Wall of text hurt eyes. See my shades. They're wall of text protectants.
Pertaining to the title. Can't means incapable. Everyone is capable of pvp. They won't. And there's nothing wrong with that. HTFU!...for the children! |
How2FoldSoup
Hull Tanking Elitists
26
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Posted - 2013.07.13 04:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Well said. I can't agree enough. |
Klymer
Hedion University Amarr Empire
329
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Posted - 2013.07.13 04:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
I won't agree less |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
707
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Posted - 2013.07.13 05:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kidd hit it. Everyone can do PvP and not everyone wants to.
Im so happy for you that you changed PvP in Eve. You are legendary.
Lol sike. Eve is Real |
Hong WeiLoh
Hong's Harriers
2
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Posted - 2013.07.13 05:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
That first paragraph is right, though: If you say "I can't," you'll make it a true statement. |
Digital Messiah
The Scope Gallente Federation
321
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Posted - 2013.07.13 06:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
I feel like the correct title for this post should be why everyone can't be a pvp god and decidedly doesn't pvp. It is easier to pvp in other games than it is in eve for the fact of clones and ship loss. People put losses up on a pedestal while kill board whoring goes on top of the temple of accomplishments. There is also the issue of making pvp out to being some quintessential game play feature that everyone must take part in to be an accomplished player.
I agree with Rells, though I feel it should be noted that EVE is a sand box with borders. Rather than being a global, rounded environment of never ending choices. Which is fine... However PVP is still a choice not a decision. So putting everyone into the category of believing they can't is fairly stereotypical.
I feel in total Rells is describing competitive play in almost any game. True specialty has its strengths, he points out the weakness it breeds. How the average beats the specialty in the long run. All in all I feel people don't pvp for the same reason people blindly vote. It is not in their interest to spend that much time on something they feel doesn't impact their play style.
In a lot of ways this topic is the same as comparing cliques from a social setting. You have your nerds, geeks, jocks, pop, losers, and valedictorians. Rather than fitting people into groups why don't we agree EVE is pretty close to a true sand box? Why spend time worrying about what the other fish are doing.
On a personal note Rells, I see what you are pointing out. It is true for a large amount of the player base which makes it an average for EVE. I just wanted to make mention of why not to put people into averages before we go any further down the road of removing tonsils because everyone else is. Something clever |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
461
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Posted - 2013.07.13 06:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
You seem to forget the people that play EvE for all the reasons that have nothing to do with PvP. As much as we all know they could do some PvP, they simply don't want to. It's not something they enjoy and not the reason they choose the play.
Course, nothing stopping people from constantly trying to force it upon then, certainly is a consistant thread topic. Though exploding these people only helps to reinforce their position. Ultimately, it falls boils down to PvP players desire for easy targets that can't or won't shoot back.
I've always strongly believed that this is one of EvE's greatest strengths, that it caters to different playstyles. There's something for everyone in EvE, from the deskbound economist that plays the market without undocking, the AFK mining parent to the hardcore scumbag pirate death-machine.
I'd suggest people embrace the epicness that is EvE, but i'm sure they'll go right ahead and continue to tell everyone how they should be playing to have fun in the sandbox. Cause their way is obviously the right way, and everyone else just..... must be doing it wrong. Post with your main, like a BOSS! |
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Jorden Ishonen
Kinetic Technologies
41
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Posted - 2013.07.13 08:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:You seem to forget the people that play EvE for all the reasons that have nothing to do with PvP. As much as we all know they could do some PvP, they simply don't want to. It's not something they enjoy and not the reason they choose the play.
Course, nothing stopping people from constantly trying to force it upon then, certainly is a consistant thread topic. Though exploding these people only helps to reinforce their position. Ultimately, it falls boils down to PvP players desire for easy targets that can't or won't shoot back.
I've always strongly believed that this is one of EvE's greatest strengths, that it caters to different playstyles. There's something for everyone in EvE, from the deskbound economist that plays the market without undocking, the AFK mining parent to the hardcore scumbag pirate death-machine.
I'd suggest people embrace the epicness that is EvE, but i'm sure they'll go right ahead and continue to tell everyone how they should be playing to have fun in the sandbox. Cause their way is obviously the right way, and everyone else just..... must be doing it wrong.
In a game where anyone can explode you, at any time, not being prepared for the eventuality is rather silly. If someone doesn't want to do combat PvP, that's fine and their choice. They just need to know how to a. minimize risks of getting blown up and b. accept loss when it eventually does happen.
As for PvPers preferring helpless targets, of course they do! A few seconds of work, and BAM, free loot. Does that mean they shrink from a fair fight? Not necessarily. But if you don't do anything make yourself a wolverine, like the OP says, then you have no one to blame but yourself if you get devoured like the weak sheep you are. |
Liam Inkuras
Justified Chaos
338
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 08:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Amazingly well said, please accept 1 spacebook like I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
15
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Posted - 2013.07.13 08:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Everyone can do pvp... not that hard.
And if u suck at it, just pay people to do it for u! |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
707
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 09:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Quote:Does that mean they shrink from a fair fight? Barring prize fighters, anyone who signs up for a fair fight knowingly is a ********. Eve is Real |
Burl en Daire
The Ecstatic Cult of Dionysus Trifectas Syndicate
7
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Posted - 2013.07.13 09:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Pilots also want to wait till they are ready for PvP. That is their first mistake, if you are going to wait till you are ready then there will always be a reason that you aren't. People don't like losing things they worked hard for even if it is a game and they don't want to take the risk. Their are risk takers who make it big but lots of them fail. People don't like failure and are usually content with something they "win" at. |
Xequecal
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2013.07.13 09:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
IMHO the biggest deterrent to newbie PvP is stat implants. You can't afford to risk them, but you also don't want to gimp your already-slow SP accumulation. Jump clones help but that only lets you get blown up once every 24 hours (and as a newbie in a T1 frig or cruiser, you're going to get blown up quickly and often) and even this only if you find a corp that has 8.0 standing to someone to install a clone at all. |
Obunagawe
175
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Posted - 2013.07.13 10:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Maybe it's something to do with how learning to pvp has been ruined.
These days it's like a school experience with many of these "training corps". You pay money to join the school, you study hard, you attend ******* classes even. Then at the end of it you get a piece of paper that says you can PVP. And just like in the real world, that piece of paper doesn't means ****. |
Seven Koskanaiken
Clan Steel Wolves
256
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 10:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Obunagawe wrote:Maybe it's something to do with how learning to pvp has been ruined.
These days it's like a school experience with many of these "training corps". You pay money to join the school, you study hard, you attend ******* classes even. Then at the end of it you get a piece of paper that says you can PVP. And just like in the real world, that piece of paper doesn't means ****.
Yea agree with this. I've spent time in quite a famous teaching corp and for theory it is great, everybody knows the mathematical formulas inside out, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
1218
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 11:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
people get different things from playing a game like this.
I understand that beating another in competition, be it pvp market systems social experiments etc how ever it comes is what drives most people.
There is also a general level of respect for intelligence in this game, thats far far higher than any other mmo ive ever encountered.
I dont solely judge a player on their fighting ability or prowess, but sure its very well respected as a career. Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
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Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2013.07.13 11:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
I been playing 4 1/2 years. Never kiiled a ship yet.....
I gave up even trying 3 1/2 years ago. Got tired of not knowing what to do, being ridiculed.
Now I simply find other things to do. Still have fun though just trading, playing the market, but I'd luv to be able to PVP... |
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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
434
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 11:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
Rells wrote:There is one clear reason why people in Eve cant do PvP. The simple reason is because they believe they can't.
All those words to mean: PvErs don't care to PvP.
Why?
They're not mouth breathers.
They see more in a game than for a "challenge" of -- more gank, less tank.
The only people giving PvP a bad name are the players playing it. When PvErs see PvPers -- with the stats -- to prove they are more than opportunists and cheap shotters hiding in some blob, then they might take it more seriously.
Just look at the incursions for an example. It's modeled after raids (which is PvE). Even the same mentality of higher skills and pimped out ships. It's about showing their progress, skills and getting rewarded for putting effort in to get both. It's not about cheap dessies with ions, it's about arriving and knowing your role and abilities in a fleet at a top level. Don't have level 5 skills or that pimped ship for pure DPS or Logi or tank, go back to gatecamping where you belong.
PvP =/= PvE when it comes to fighting even.
When I'm doing missions, I'm not in them to "escape PvP", I'm in them to learn max DPS and max tank. Because for me incursions is what I'd prefer to do, as that's what PvErs consider a "challenge". Not ganking newbs with ion blasters, then claiming to be pros (or hoping to get another gank if they have a maxed toon, as they don't do it without backup).
This is why I admire BL. Any two bit PvPer can kill a newb. It takes a much higher level PvPer to dive in and kill choice targets like the Special Forces do it (by the numbers). And they don't hang around to BS in local like 15 year-old bads. They get in do their job, and off the go to other targets. Pros.
If you're not going to play at a higher level, don't make excuses of why PvErs don't PvP. They see the usual junk that's regarded as "PvP". Not challenging. Bunch of horseplay. Pure waste of time, effort and even skills (if you seen them in raids, especially the mouth breathing type standing in fire, oh heck no, they can keep their PvP).
If I was to PvP in EvE, it'll be BL style nothing less. Otherwise, NPCs are more interesting than the mouth breathing BS that passes for PvP. Oh, they can gab, but at the end of the day what they have to show for it? A killmail full of killing pods?
I'll leave what passes for the usual PvP for the children. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Obunagawe
176
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 11:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote: If I was to PvP in EvE, it'll be BL style nothing less. Otherwise, NPCs are more interesting than the mouth breathing BS that passes for PvP. Oh, they can gab, but at the end of the day what they have to show for it? A killmail full of killing pods?
But people who haven't PVPed (or hell, even if they have) can not get into BL. So yeah. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
34
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 11:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
While I agree with the OP, there are lots of solo players in EVE - and PvP isn't conducive to solo play. Faction Warfare is probably the closest to "unofficial" team play, but not everyone likes getting shot at randomly in high-sec, either. There's an underlying mentality with the people that inhabit low and null-sec, and this frenzied "FFA" play style is what discourages many players from venturing out from high-sec. You reap what you sow, and if PvP consists of players basically ganking and gate-camping every entrance into low-sec from high-sec - it's going to be lonely times, indeed.
The solution for increased PvP is a new game mechanic. Something like a tribute system whereby groups of players could "occupy" any gate into low-sec that would force an "entrance fee" -or- enter at your own risk. This would be optional and they could simply gate-camp as previous, too. The fee would entitle you to a set period of invulnerability from said corporation for the duration of your stay in that system. The fun would be in trying to find unguarded gates, sneaking in to run the blockades - and of course - outstaying your welcome.
Just a thought. |
Rells
Fusillade.
55
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 13:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
I see so many excuses in this thread.
Excuse: "You cant PvP if you are solo!" Rebuttal: You can and it is some of the most fun PvP around. You have to think out of the box and adapt your tactics to the situation. I have spent hours sitting off gates in a lonely T1 itty bitty frigate waiting for interceptors to bite on the bait. I have set up traps at planets that have killed entire frig squads in one shot. I have taken out tech 2 cruisers with tech 1 cruisers. Again you are spending all your time on the word "CAN'T". To solo pvp you have to understand the psychology of your opponent and then adapt your strategy to fit it.
Excuse: "I dont know how!" Rebuttal: So learn then. Or figure it out. No one held my hand. When I started agony they all laughed and said it couldn't be done. They mocked us in local. The more of their ships we blew up the more they mocked. They had to have some outlet for the damage we were doing to their pretty ships.
And forget any corp that has you join to learn. Those corps used to (and possibly still do ... I dont know) send their pilots to Agony to learn. Agony unleashed demands a decent fee (though isk per hour wise it is pathetic) to take a course. We succeeded by offering quality experiences to our customers. "University" corps are almost always disorganized with some semblance of self-teaching and they might take you out on a roam. Agony puts pilots through hours of classroom work and then takes them out and shows them a coordinated fleet action. For the expereinced agony pilots its a bit like herding cats on PvP Basic. They are much more used to experienced pilots but it also damn fun to see some veteran with a ship just slightly smaller than his ego get blown up by a bunch of t1 frigs.
Excuse: "I just want to be left alone!!" Rebuttal: You are the sheep I was referring to. The funny thing about sheep is that they bleet rather loudly. When they come on the forums they are nasty, with sharp insults for all who dare stand in the way of their "Epic quest" and uber ship of death. Yet in game they quake at the smallest risk and grind it out in interminable boredom. Sometimes, few times, I feel sorry for them.
The sheep flock to games like Eve was in the first years and try to turn them into WOW. They burn through content and then complain to the game company that they are out of content. They dont go make their way, they dont push the boundaries, they like to be comfortable and secure. And they also make judgements about other people for what they do in a video game. The sheep call the pvpers "murderer wannabes" and "psychotic" and so on. They have lost all perspective.
I have no problem killing sheep because they are beneath my notice and mutton tastes yummy when its cooked right.
Yes, in 2004 on my old character I was one of those evil pirates. My old character has the distinction of being among the few pilots that helped participate in the wiping out of concord in the old market hub of Yulai back when concord wasn't invincible.
Sheep are good for one thing. Consuming.
I have more respect for the smallest rookie pvping in his Rifter than I have for the sheep with the biggest ship and shinyest toys. They arent carebears. The old cartoon Carebears would fight for love and respect with their powers. The players I speak of are just sheep. Run of the mill, boring sheep. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
435
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 13:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
Obunagawe wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote: If I was to PvP in EvE, it'll be BL style nothing less. Otherwise, NPCs are more interesting than the mouth breathing BS that passes for PvP. Oh, they can gab, but at the end of the day what they have to show for it? A killmail full of killing pods?
But people who haven't PVPed (or hell, even if they have) can not get into BL. So yeah.
:shakes head:
If you didn't get the message (it's about top skills and abilities), you'll never truly understand what PvErs look for and play for, and why PvP is looked at as "easier".
Progression for PvE types is questing; dungeoning; then raiding. Steady progression as their skills evolve and the content grows tougher. You don't just hop into a level 90 raid at level 10 and expect to survive 10 seconds, for example (heck, can't even get into them, they're level locked and iLevel locked anyway to prevent carrieds getting carried). You put your time in, learning the roles, your abilities so when you're at level 90 (or in EvE have the necessary level 5 skills and fly the specialized ships) you're ready to perform at the HIGHEST LEVEL.
To a PvPer missions are a waste of time, it's jumping in to pewpewpew that matters.
PvErs don't play like that, as their progression is a smooth curve. The only PvP that even resembles PvE is at the highest level - and because they finally got it, what that level 10 quester learns in his progression - organization and skills matter.
Getting into BL wasn't the point. The point is they're admired because they're at the pro level, which is like heroic raiders or avatar hunters. Not the gatecamping wannabe. They prove that they're good at what they do. That's what PvErs admire and try to get through in their progression. Everything else isn't worth the time, it's only the "end-game" that matters. Which in EvE is maxing out their skills and being a incursion runner, with their skillz and tricked out ships.
PvPers consider the reason PvErs don't want to PvP is they're afraid of dying. Nope (ask any raider how many times they die on a boss, especially during progression runs). It's the fear of getting behind on that progression curve.
If I lose a ship to a PvPer I don't even have time to cry or mourn the loss, I hop into another ship and doing what I was doing before. I got to get XYZ done, and now. If camped, login with another toon to do it at another location. The PvPer is gloating over it all stroking his ePeen, because he has nothing else to play for. He'll always be behind.
"Time is money, friend".
Until folks understand that, I'm not surprised of these threads. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Rells
Fusillade.
55
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 14:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote: "Time is money, friend".
Until folks understand that, I'm not surprised of these threads.
Its a video game. If you want ot make money, log off and go do something productive.
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Evei Shard
211
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Posted - 2013.07.13 14:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
There are thousands of games available to the average PvE player. Many of them have PvP aspects. Something that always gets glossed over (deliberately I suspect) is that Eve is one of the best games in the industry, and it is the #1 science fiction "space game" that you can play right now. This is going to attract a *lot* of people who have no interest in the killmail-PvP aspect of the game. They are going to look at Eve and say "ug, the non-consentual PvP is a pain, but the rest of the game is just awesome", and they are going to go headlong into the game to try and make it without killmail-PvP.
They aren't "risk averse". They aren't "sheep". They are people who want to play a well made space based game and have fun doing so. Their only realistic option in regards to quality, depth, options, and so on, is Eve Online. Everything else pales in comparison.
They put up with killmail-PvP, because the PvE in Eve is worth it to them. Profit favors the prepared |
Seven Koskanaiken
Clan Steel Wolves
256
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 14:24:00 -
[28] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:There are thousands of games available to the average PvE player. Many of them have PvP aspects. Something that always gets glossed over (deliberately I suspect) is that Eve is one of the best games in the industry, and it is the #1 science fiction "space game" that you can play right now. This is going to attract a *lot* of people who have no interest in the killmail-PvP aspect of the game. They are going to look at Eve and say "ug, the non-consentual PvP is a pain, but the rest of the game is just awesome", and they are going to go headlong into the game to try and make it without killmail-PvP.
They aren't "risk averse". They aren't "sheep". They are people who want to play a well made space based game and have fun doing so. Their only realistic option in regards to quality, depth, options, and so on, is Eve Online. Everything else pales in comparison.
They put up with killmail-PvP, because the PvE in Eve is worth it to them.
Some would argue that Eve is not a space game, it's an economic and social simulator with some space crap thrown on top. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
438
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 14:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
Rells wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote: "Time is money, friend".
Until folks understand that, I'm not surprised of these threads.
Its a video game. If you want ot make money, log off and go do something productive.
10/10 for trolling to get 3 votes.
That in itself I rest my case on the average intelligence of a PvPer -- if it's not painted, pointed and flashing as the new gate animation, they still couldn't understand what they're even talking about.
"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
2223
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Posted - 2013.07.13 14:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Rells wrote:Ace Uoweme wrote: "Time is money, friend".
Until folks understand that, I'm not surprised of these threads.
Its a video game. If you want ot make money, log off and go do something productive. 10/10 for trolling to get 3 votes. That in itself I rest my case on the average intelligence of a PvPer -- if it's not painted, pointed and flashing as the new gate animation, they still couldn't understand what they're even talking about.
I don't think he was trolling. I think he was being brutally honest. Allow me to be frank. You will not like me. You will not like me now, and you will not like men++ a good deal less as we go on. |
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