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Rells
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Posted - 2005.12.09 12:28:00 -
[1]
The reality of the situation in the game is that CONCORD does far more to protect griefers and exploiters than it does to protect the common man. For example, if a player attacks you and you come back with friends he can just jump up to high sec and be invulnerable. If you know that such a character is the sales alt of a notorious pirate you cant do anything about it because he is always in high sec. Worst of all, if there are macrominers you cant do anything about it because concord will gank you.
I personally have been killed by CONCORD twice. Once as I decided to dump some cargo and wanted to blow it up so that it wouldnt clutter up my overview from the other NPC loot drops. Imagine my suprise when CONCORD blew me up for shooting my own can. The second time I died to CONCORD was in a corp war. We were blockading an empire station as there were corp enemies inside the station. The war player undocks and I locked him and started firing from my brand new (1 hour old) caldari cruiser. But between the time I started the guns another ship (the friend of the corp war guy) locked my ship. As I had auto lock on, it locked him back and in between the third and fourth gun going off, the war target docked, my new target was automatically his griefer friend and CONCORD blew me up. That was how I learned the hard way to turn off auto-relocking of targets.
After having researched this post, I havent found anyone who was actually legitimately protected by CONCORD. Almost every story I hear of people being blown up by CONCORD is some cheese like this. That tells me that concord is not effective.
So what would I propose in place of CONCORD? Simply an extension of the faction system. If I destroy a miner in a Caldari system in an unprevoked attack, I should loose faction with the Caldari up to the point where their military will attack me on sight and I cant dock at their stations. This could be even further enforced by taking into account the faction standing of the player. Whatever factions he has over a certain amount of standing with, I would loose standing by doing unsanctionalbe actions; a bit for blowing up a ship, more for blowing up an expensive ship, and massive amounts for podding him.
The faction aligned standing system would require that the factions are such that you cant gain faction with all 4 empires at the same time. For example, doing missions for Gallente should lower your faction stanidng with the Caldari and vice versa. This would weave in a thick tapestry of faction standings that would allow reprocussions for actions without the chese of CONCORD. Furthermore, this faction system would allow corporations to become friends of serpentis and so on. In the meantime they would loose faction with the other factions and could end up KOS in empire.The system would be rich and dynamic.
Some might cry out for the newbies but likely they will remain in their own empires for some time. They would be relatively well protected as the faction standing hits would ramp up dramatically as the sec status of the system gets higher. So would the minimum faction to enter without getting blown up.
This would require diligent work to the faction system and probably it would be good to have warning alerts when jumping into a system in which you are KOS or near KOS. It would also make security status totally unecessary. The universe would be as it should be with everything being relative. For example, a Gallente's war hero is a Caldari's war criminal.
I think this would further reinforce factional warfare and I know for sure that it would make life a lot harder on the macrominers.
◄ I must not fear.
◄ Fear is the mind-killer.
◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.
◄ -- Paul Atreides
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.12.09 12:35:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Rells
After having researched this post, I havent found anyone who was actually legitimately protected by CONCORD.
I'm protected by them everytime I fly through highsec. Without fail.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.12.09 12:37:00 -
[3]
Haha yea, I got killed same way. Auto-target was not your problem. You can push a gun before you have a target locked. The gun will then lock and shoot the next *selected* target. Same thing happens when the gun cycles but its current target has disappeared. Gun goes into shoot the next *selected* object mode.
In my case my guns were cycling sice I left a belt after some combat. I wanted to just get through the gate but when i selected it my guns locked and shot it :P They added a 'are you sure' option since, but it does not help us that live in 00 and typically shoot everything.
Anyway, there are new flagging enhancements that should allow you to get your vengence next patch. Lets hope it lasts long enough and not a stupid 15 minutes.
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Gonada
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Posted - 2005.12.09 12:42:00 -
[4]
sorry man stupidity has its prices.
concord is there for a reason, to protect high sec space, land of the noob, the civilized, the trader, and the occasional idiot.
everything you have mentioned, you could have prevented.
therfore, your argument is void and should be taken for what it really is, a whine,
cheese?
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
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dantes inferno
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Posted - 2005.12.09 12:50:00 -
[5]
ohh yes please i would love to be able to kil leverything in sight with no reprecusions..no miner will be safe :D
_____
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Rells
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Posted - 2005.12.09 12:55:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Gonada
sorry man stupidity has its prices.
concord is there for a reason, to protect high sec space, land of the noob, the civilized, the trader, and the occasional idiot.
everything you have mentioned, you could have prevented.
therfore, your argument is void and should be taken for what it really is, a whine,
cheese?
I suppose you were born knowing everything and have never made a mistake in your life?
My post is a post of my opinion. You choose not to debate its content but to sling flames and insults. *shrug*
Grow up.
◄ I must not fear.
◄ Fear is the mind-killer.
◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.
◄ -- Paul Atreides
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Rells
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Posted - 2005.12.09 12:57:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Rells on 09/12/2005 12:57:59
Originally by: dantes inferno
ohh yes please i would love to be able to kil leverything in sight with no reprecusions..no miner will be safe :D
Please do point out in my post where I said there should be no reprocussions. Strangely enough I cant recall writing such a thing. It would be extremely stupid to say the least. I advocated DIFFERENT reprocussions.
Why do I suddenly feel surrounded and attacked by fuzzy plush toys with various symbols on their chest?
◄ I must not fear.
◄ Fear is the mind-killer.
◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.
◄ -- Paul Atreides
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Gonada
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:06:00 -
[8]
I suppose you were born knowing everything and have never made a mistake in your life?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
yes many, and I always learn from them, not try to change the system to make up for my inadequacies.
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
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Rells
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:10:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Gonada
I suppose you were born knowing everything and have never made a mistake in your life?
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yes many, and I always learn from them, not try to change the system to make up for my inadequacies.
I wish to change the system because it is useless in my opinion. it has little to do with my personal experiences. Im not being ganked by CONCORD daily or anything. I wish to see Eve become more factional and less carebear vs pvper oriented. Its a shame you cant see that far to see what eve could really become.
◄ I must not fear.
◄ Fear is the mind-killer.
◄ Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.
◄ -- Paul Atreides
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Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:15:00 -
[10]
Remove CONCORD and it would be a free for all in empire space 
My claim to CONCORDoken fame was when I got my first Smartbomb, launched a tin and wanted to see how much damage it does. Problem was I was still within range of the station and someone undocked JUST as I fired it off. Sentry guns, CONCORD the whole works 
The next test was conducted at a planet 
---------
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Glengrant
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:16:00 -
[11]
The claim that nobody is protected by Concord is - sorry - silly. Every minute uncounted numbers of miners, traders and everybody else is protected by the exptected reaction of Concord.
Your solution with the faction standings is not without merit - but suffers from a fatal (?) flaw. Too many gankers dont care as long as they can have some quick fun and blow up some helpless targets. Also they can gank for a while - then do missions to recover standing, rinse, repeat.
I did shoot on my own stuff at times - and didn't get destroyed by Concord - so I assume that was a bug at one time. Anyway - it's the kind of thing that you can solve with a petition.
Criminal flagging is about to be introduced so that solves some of the problem.
Being careful what you target and when to activate your weapons, plus switching off counter-targeting will solve most of the rest.
The system is not perfect and could use a couple more improvements, but IMHO the Concord system works well enough already and is a much better solution than the arbitrary pvp vs non-pvp zones of other games (which I cannot stand).
But what might be cool is to have your faction police work in addition and complementing Concord. For example (just making numbers up for the sake of argument) Concord could withdraw to sec 0.7+ while faction police patrols 0.3+. In systems with a sec rating between 0.3 and 0.6 (incl.) faction police would protect you if you're a citizen of that state or have a high enough faction standing.
That would make standing more important and graduate the sec a bit more.
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Icarus Starkiller
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Rells
After having researched this post, I havent found anyone who was actually legitimately protected by CONCORD.
I'm protected by them everytime I fly through highsec. Without fail.
Not when I went after your pod for engaging our allies whom you were at war with and instead targeting our fleet that was mixed in with but not ganged to theirs... Alas, I had no disruptor so you got away in armour.
Life is pain...anyone who says differently is selling something. |
Sykosys
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:21:00 -
[13]
Unfortunatly the original poster is in a noob corp and complaigning about concord.
Most people won't even go through your long post just for that fact.
And no concord is fine. They have killed me many times because I use smartbombs and have nicked friendly drones many times. They are doing their job. The system is not broken at all. And what you propose would do more harm than good unfortunatly
_______________________
"She'll fly apart sir,"
"FLY HER APART THEN!!!" |
Flyyn
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:24:00 -
[14]
OP: Do you like this game? really do you? Pull your head out and rethink your post...Not only has it got to be the biggest line of BS. But by chance if CCP would do this in a drunk haze. They would lose approx 50,000 accounts. Thats $797,500.00 a month...Next time your not stoned/drunk/or otherwise not mentally challanged. Look at the map, see where all the money (real money) is located. Safe under Concords protection, from gankers and arse holes.
Eve is a PvP game, BUT its not just a combative pvp game.
And the vast majority of the players engage in non-combative PvP. And do not want to constantly have to dock or warp to a safe spot for you to get your rocks off.
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Randuin MaraL
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:24:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Should CONCORD be disbanded and Sec status abolished?
No, many just love them as they are.
Never be in the company of anyone with whom you would not want to die.
MEDUSA veteran, Khumaak Award winner, kills in an ogre space suit |
AlleyKat
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:27:00 -
[16]
You suggestions do have merit and I personally think that you have looked into this with thought for all in mind.
The eve system for crime and punishment is fair though and I see no reason to change it. Yes, no system is perfect, but like the society we live in, the minor imperfections must be tolerated I'm sorry to say.
I do think that there are some instances when an easy mistake can be misinterperated by the program-logic and I would encourage anyone to petition such occurances if and when they happen.
This game and the changes in it are dictated by the masses and unless the needs of the many outwiegh the needs of the few, then the system will not be changed. For now at least, I would say that you are in the minority.
Regards,
AK. |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Icarus Starkiller
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Rells
After having researched this post, I havent found anyone who was actually legitimately protected by CONCORD.
I'm protected by them everytime I fly through highsec. Without fail.
Not when I went after your pod for engaging our allies whom you were at war with and instead targeting our fleet that was mixed in with but not ganged to theirs... Alas, I had no disruptor so you got away in armour.
Well now,
I'll send off the exploit petition then.
I gor reassurances from your corp mates at the time that you did lose your ship.
Thanks for the admission of guilt
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Tommy Twoguns
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:35:00 -
[18]
The fabled land you dream of, where no security forces intervene and security status has no relavance already exists - 0.0.
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Chai N'Dorr
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Posted - 2005.12.09 13:42:00 -
[19]
Though your factions hit idea is, well, refreshing... you fail to see that with that plan there is no insta-boom response. As some folks have pointed out: there are people out there who do not care about the gradual loss of faction if it means they can kill folks without immediate repraisal for even a little while. The CONCORDOKEN-effect protects you much more than you seem to realise.
I've got a high Minmatar standing, in RP-terms I turned my back on the Republic, so I couldn't care less that this standing would go down. So I can do quite a bit wrong by your system. Counter side is the Republic... why would it care that I get killed if I am only Minmatar born, but not a citizen any longer?
Your proposal would also need a complete rework of the faction system. I could start working for Sisters of Eve and through them gain faction with the Empires and start the process all over without losing a single ship.
There is just too much possibility to grief with your system to even think about considering it.
_
Short Story: Planetside |
Jon Hawkes
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Posted - 2005.12.09 14:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
My claim to CONCORDoken fame was when I got my first Smartbomb, launched a tin and wanted to see how much damage it does. Problem was I was still within range of the station and someone undocked JUST as I fired it off. Sentry guns, CONCORD the whole works
The next test was conducted at a planet
So, how gutted were you when you eventually learned that Smartbombs can't damage jet cans?
Free production, refining and POS resouces site |
Kahn Moquil
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Posted - 2005.12.09 14:27:00 -
[21]
Concord does its work nicely. Biggest deterrence ever against shooting stuff in high sec, if you ask me.
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Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2005.12.09 14:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jon Hawkes
So, how gutted were you when you eventually learned that Smartbombs can't damage jet cans?
Nah, back when I was lad, they could damage cans and ruptures were a serious loss
---------
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Samuel Baxter
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Posted - 2005.12.09 14:29:00 -
[23]
I. Controversial Points
1. Removing CONCORD presence from in-game
2. Abolishing CONCORD security system
3. Factional system
II. Support Contained in OP
I. CONCORD destroyed the OP's vessel twice.
II. No statements on forums concerning helpful actions by CONCORD.
III. Rejection
I. Lack of Research.
The OP (deliberately?) avoided discussing the upcoming ore-thief flagging system, which will allow for PvP without CONCORD intereference.
II. Lack of Military Ships.
CONCORD ships are present at all major stargates and some stations in empire space. However, the number of available military vessels decreases significantly in comparison.
III. Lack of Security Status.
Currently the only thing prohibiting widespread combat in empire space is the CONCORD security system. The OP has proposed removing this entirely.
The immediate effect of this would be widespread combat in empire space, especially from pirates swarming in from 0.0 systems. (For obvious reasons, the aforementioned pilots would not have to worry about their security status with the empires.) Over time, this would affect even the economy as pilots need to be more careful in how they ship certain commodities, and need to ensure that they have a proper escort before departure.
IV. Shipping Hazard.
Removing the CONCORD security system would greatly increase times needed for jumps from major facilities as an increasing number of dreadnoughts began to appear in empire space. Furthermore, there would also be a post-RMR spike as Titans and Carriers began to appear in empire space.
All of the aforementioned vessels are currently prohibited from empire space by the CONCORD security system.
V. Bias.
The OP confessed to the execution of two illegal actions which clearly prove the later comment that he was, to pardon the phrase, a "n00b." Inexperience is a thing which must be overcome in time, and with hard effort, not through manipulating the playing field to suit personal goals.
Originally by: milinkoee
You are off the map, and there be monsters here.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.12.09 14:32:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jon Hawkes
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
My claim to CONCORDoken fame was when I got my first Smartbomb, launched a tin and wanted to see how much damage it does. Problem was I was still within range of the station and someone undocked JUST as I fired it off. Sentry guns, CONCORD the whole works
The next test was conducted at a planet
So, how gutted were you when you eventually learned that Smartbombs can't damage jet cans?
Depends how long ago his test was. They used to blow them up.
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.12.09 14:32:00 -
[25]
Yeah remove CONCORD, maybe then old m0o will come back to grief people in Empire again.
I don't think you trust, in, my, self-righteous suicide. |
Lygos
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Posted - 2005.12.09 15:50:00 -
[26]
-Making faction standing and navies more relevant is a good idea.
-Restricting Concord to 0.6 and up is a good idea. So is splitting up the npc nations.
-Making some sort of difference between 0.4, 0.3, 0.2 and 0.1 systems is also a good idea. Level of faction/security hit could be modified.
-Global security standing is bad because it creates some kind of inane notion of good guy/bad guy, which both parties tend to perpetuate with unceasing effort. Concord merely protects property that is tenuously valued by regional authorities, not ethics, customs or "order."
-Making pvp in areas with intra-factional values (2 people with high ammatar standing) is a pickle, but mechanics that are based on |absolute| values as well as relative values could make it work. Concord could have a minimalist backup role that overlaps the navies instead of the other way around. Navies could even have greater range than concord, down to perhaps 0.5 or even 0.4 space, though weakening.
-Security changes should have a half-life. There should also be some marginal randomness. If the short term hit you take for an action is just under the threshold, concord or navies might not respond. Any further action would stack on the amplitude of the change and probably provoke an evironmental response. So you get away with things very occasionally, yet not have to grind on some irrelevant mechanic like npcs. Abusing the privelege would catch up to you depending on the threshold of that system or planetary disk or whatever. So you might get away with one ship destruction in 0.6 or 0.5 every week or 48 hours or whatever, though you would still have residual half-life on your last sec hit for months. You might get away with nicking someone's paint job in 1.0 space if you've been a good little boy the rest of your eve career, but not destroying them. You could kill quite a few people in 0.4 space, but killing things repeatedly would eventually provoke a naval response. The threshold for this response would be much higher as you went to 0.3 and lower. The consequence for this would be to make target seekers more selective and to ease up on chokepoints.
Targetting Sig Variance -- "Everything I love is combustible." |
Shidhe
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Posted - 2005.12.09 15:56:00 -
[27]
No.
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Raem Civrie
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Posted - 2005.12.09 16:07:00 -
[28]
Following factional warfare and eye for an eye, I wouldn't mind it.
How the hell is Concord going to justify itself as an entity when the empires go to war? Maybe get the empire navies themselves pick up the responsiblity of guarding their own space?
---
God-King of Genitalia |
QSquared
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Posted - 2005.12.09 16:11:00 -
[29]
Quote:
After having researched this post, I havent found anyone who was actually legitimately protected by CONCORD. Almost every story I hear of people being blown up by CONCORD is some cheese like this. That tells me that concord is not effective.
Whoa whoa whoa man! WTF you smokin'? Concord is the only thing that skeeps those systems a worry-free experiance.
Althought I liked some of your Ideas and believe emements of what you've said shodul be brought into game play, I think concord should still exist.
What shoudl be done is that as you lose standing with an empirte it becomes harder and harder to get into the higher sec systems because you get blocked from entering them (most times), and blown up if you do push through.
you should be able to get so chummy with the Guristas that guristas belt rats don't attack you, and if your in a war and they happen to spawn they fight with you. for instance.
You might even turn all the low-sec empire systems entirely to your way of doing things. the problem is there are so many rats and so many empires you coudl do this:
spend days attacking players in caldari space untill your at blown up on site levels; but now you've outstanding creedance with Galenti due to your way of distributing standing. So you move over to GAL space and kill gal PCs for a week or two untill your killed on site status. Now move back to Caldari. Rinse and Repeat. In the end with you system no one woudl be safe at all anywhere ever.
You have to remember even now when you do some things for certain factions you lose standing with other factions and gain with others. but sec status and standing move both ways, if I do somethign bad to the minmitar they don't like me, but ammaranians applaud me. Pluss there are four empires each liking different ones so I might hate on caldari and Amar space and then have outstanding Minmatar and Galenti standings now I can go to 1.0 and pod newbs for a day.
Bad plan. But I undersdtand what your going for - I really liek the Idea of killing an PC gives you negative standing with whoever the PC has positive standing with and vice versa, kill a ful time rat gain standing with all empires and lose standing with a few empire corps and a bunch of rat corps. Could be quite fun and would work well both ways.
~Q
A Nod is as good as a wink to a blind bat! ;-) ~Q (http://www.TheKnightsTemplar.us) |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2005.12.09 16:15:00 -
[30]
Someone once told me I should elaborate on my posts to eve-online. I should have details and such. This I see could also be bad.
All I have to say is that once you figure out what happened and the things that could of been done you need to re-read your post. You must not be doing missions since story line do adjust your faction to others. Your corp standings and agent is only effected on reular missions.
Concord is the balance between all empires. They care not what you have done to other factions they only care for the common security of all empire space. Have you read the backstory of CONCORD? Be they 100% effective could be debated. Ask the IRL "UN" but in principle which we must all go for they, do a job!
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Whats funny is your heard it. |
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