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headbutt
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Posted - 2005.12.10 06:49:00 -
[1]
Edited by: headbutt on 10/12/2005 06:54:11
Edited by: headbutt on 10/12/2005 06:49:28
Now before you mods try to lock this GM Guard said it was ok to discuss this customer service rule. It is even posted on the support section of the site.
This is meant to be a constructive thread to discuss the rule and what it may or may not mean to the players of eve. PLEASE KEEP THE THREAD CLEAN SO WE CAN ALL TALK ABOUT THIS.
Now here is the new rule set. No idea when it went into effect.
[url="http://support.eve-online.com/cgi-bin/eve_online.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php]Link to new rule page[/url] or read below
 Quote:
If you are dissatisfied with a regular Game Master's (GM1) handling of your petition, you have the right to request that it be escalated to a senior Game Master (GM2). However, there are a few caveats that apply:
A GM1 is your first point of contact at Customer Support and is thus the first person who'll attempt to help you with your problem. While there may be some issues that require direct escalation to a GM2, in most cases the GM1 will try to resolve the matter without escalation. The GM1 will not escalate a petition unless those attempts have been exhausted.
Likewise, the GM1 must have all the relevant data before escalating. If a GM1 asks for additional information, the case will not be escalated until he receives that information.
Once a petition is escalated, the GM2 will handle only the problem you originally petitioned about. If you update the petition with any additional or unrelated issues, it will be sent back down to the GM1 for review.
If the GM2 doesn't find that the matter should have been treated any different than it was by the GM1, your account will be flagged. If we find that you persistently request the escalation of your petitions, and that the GM2 are giving you the same response every time as the GM1 did, your account may receive a warning for wasting CS's time.
I have an issue with the whole idea of flagging of an account. So here are my issues/questions.
Who makes the decision if you are trying to reason with them that you are wasting their time? I think we all pay for their time, so its really ours not theirs.
I heard that the GM's play eve, what is to stop them from rampant abuse of this for things that happen to them in game?
Nearly everyone that has played a while has had a horrible response from a GM. Then asked to have that escalated to the next level out of shear frustration or because it seemed to be truely something that should be looked into. I guess all that fit that catagory are flagged. No matter the issues.....
This system is ripe and ready now for GM abuse.
If you are flagged what is to stop the GM's from instantly saying "insert canned response NO #1" because of the flag?
I have watched as some people get a ship returned from a bug during a battle where the person fighting directly next to them did not. Does this mean the Flagging system has been around a long time and abuse of it is already happening?
What is to stop the GM's from flagging evil pirates that ruin others game play, and not flagging happy go lucky miners?
I pay for this game with two accounts, I feel that these are valid questions of a service I recieve. I do not petition ever day or week, only when very odd things happen that i cannot explain why. I have also asked a qestion or two about the reasoning behind other not ingame rules CCP has regarding eve.
Anyway I felt that a good discussion might figure this out better.
excuse the grammar and spelling i am to tired to fix it now.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.12.10 06:56:00 -
[2]
Note that word "persistently." The only way they can figure out who is requesting escalation of pointless petitions three times a week, is to flag each instance and then count the flags.
If you don't trust the game to be run honestly, then there are plenty of ways that GMs can abuse their powers even before this rule was introduced. witness all the threads that have been made over the years about "XYZ alliance petitioned us because they were getting ganked in a fleet fight, and the GM whose alt is in XYZ gave them all of their ships back. It's not fair!"
(Disclaimer: if there is a *real* XYZ alliance in game, please note that the above was not intended to be about you.) 
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
headbutt
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Posted - 2005.12.10 07:00:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
If you don't trust the game to be run honestly, then there are plenty of ways that GMs can abuse their powers even before this rule was introduced. witness all the threads that have been made over the years about "XYZ alliance petitioned us because they were getting ganked in a fleet fight, and the GM whose alt is in XYZ gave them all of their ships back. It's not fair!"
Now that would have been quite obvious to the other GM's and or management. This is a judgement call that is not even close to being able to be tracked.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.12.10 07:01:00 -
[4]
well with all the recetn disconnects and ignored petitions due to fleet lag battles - and a lot of other issues as well as the sudden running amok of macro miners and player frustration as to what is becoming a major issue with 1400 counted alone by reservor dogs the alt corp setup to murder macro miners
That the customer service setup has to restrict thigns to issus that they are prepared to deal with as well as scripted (macro) responses to common petitions to relieve overworked GMs dealing with petitions.
This was going to come lets hope the workload eases off after RMR goes in
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.12.10 07:02:00 -
[5]
Originally by: headbutt
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
If you don't trust the game to be run honestly, then there are plenty of ways that GMs can abuse their powers even before this rule was introduced. witness all the threads that have been made over the years about "XYZ alliance petitioned us because they were getting ganked in a fleet fight, and the GM whose alt is in XYZ gave them all of their ships back. It's not fair!"
Now that would have been quite obvious to the other GM's and or management. This is a judgement call that is not even close to being able to be tracked.
Errr .... why not? 
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
headbutt
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Posted - 2005.12.10 07:16:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Errr .... why not?
"Why not" doesn't mean much, no point in your question. |
Dao 2
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Posted - 2005.12.10 07:18:00 -
[7]
how do u get it escalated ;p
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.12.10 08:16:00 -
[8]
You have got that message for ages when you esculate a petition.
______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Teles666
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Posted - 2005.12.10 09:25:00 -
[9]
I think your lucky you can escalate it - how many times on the phone to your electric company etc have you asked to speak to a manager and got it?
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Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2005.12.10 09:35:00 -
[10]
GM's are paid and they have rules to prevent abuse, if they don't follow those rules then they have the risk of being fired.
Would you want to loose your job just because you don't like someone in game? Do you think it's worth that? Let me assure you that the GM's just want to do their job's to the best of their abilities and that there are rules in place to prevent abuse.
Forgot what I wanted to write here... |
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Toutaku
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Posted - 2005.12.10 09:58:00 -
[11]
I dont see a problem with that rule as it is true that some people often spam useless petitions.
I for one like the customer service this game provides. GM's may not have solved my credit card problems but atleast they tried. They also reimbursed me for a skill bug that costed me valuable training time.
In other MMORPG's like Ragnarok Online, WoW, etc., the GM's dont even interact in person. They only send you these crap automated responses that just get on your nerves. Or it takes them like 3 months to even take a look at your problem.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.12.10 10:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: headbutt
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Errr .... why not?
"Why not" doesn't mean much, no point in your question.
Well, for those too dumb to figure it out for themselves: why can't this new system be tracked to see which senior GM's are flagging which characters and what for? It sure as hell would if I'd written it.
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Balazs Simon
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Posted - 2005.12.10 10:17:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Balazs Simon on 10/12/2005 10:19:05
OHHH, LIGHT !!
Thats why I never get back any ships ever! My account is flagged for sure.
I got stucked, filled a petition, GM helped me, but I was in pod. He not replaced the ship, I asked for escalation, the senior GM not helped me either. From this point, I'm sure whats happening...
TBH this make me quite angry... an angry paying customers are not a good thing CCP.
PS: What happen with flagged/warning accounts ? Future petitions from them will be handeled "differently" ??
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This post is my personal opinion. It does not represent the standpoint of the HUN Corporation in any way.
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headbutt
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Posted - 2005.12.10 10:48:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: headbutt
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Errr .... why not?
"Why not" doesn't mean much, no point in your question.
Well, for those too dumb to figure it out for themselves: why can't this new system be tracked to see which senior GM's are flagging which characters and what for? It sure as hell would if I'd written it.
For those to dumb to read its a question of after your account is flagged where the abuse comes in.
Its that little thing called GM discretion that they put into nearly every rule. Do you really think that after your flagged the lower gm won't tell you no because he knows the higher level gm will side with him more often than not, because you do have a flag on your name. (sorry run on sentence and a half)
Its like putting a big bright flashing light on your head and asking people not to look at it.
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headbutt
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Posted - 2005.12.10 10:55:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Eris Discordia
GM's are paid and they have rules to prevent abuse, if they don't follow those rules then they have the risk of being fired.
Would you want to loose your job just because you don't like someone in game? Do you think it's worth that? Let me assure you that the GM's just want to do their job's to the best of their abilities and that there are rules in place to prevent abuse.
Pick up a newpaper, you will see that happening every day in all walks of life in every country.
In the heat of it most people make bad decisions. They do not put the proper thought into the actions they take.
Do not even try to tell me that all these people just because they do customer service as a job are infoulable.
And rules put in place are nothing.... After 2 years they have had probobly a few incidents. I think i remember one where a GM gave someone a BPO that was seriously rare at the time for a BS reason.
Humans have emotions and no one has ever been perfect at letting them go.
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Jonis Sinmaker
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Posted - 2005.12.10 11:09:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jonis Sinmaker on 10/12/2005 11:10:41
Well I can tell you I hate this rule.....how are you going to highlight me because I don't want to take the word of one man.....sometimes it takes more then one person to look into things...GM's go through so many petitions that I can bet that they get frustrated and just half a$$ it just to get done. If anyone out there says no to this then they are truely sheltered. The GM's are only human so for us to ask for a second opinion or a second look at something from a senior (more experienced) GM shouldn't cause us to get flagged. What is CCP going to do....ban me for being flagged to much because I don't trust the word or skills of the majority of GM's that are online. Sorry, but if they were trained right and treated the customers better we wouldn't have the issues we have now. How about flagging the GM's who have petitions that get escalated...hmmmm that way CCP has a way to track GM's with trends of players wanting to bypass them because they aren't doing their jobs....or is this to much trouble.
Semper Fi,
Jonis-
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Bahnny
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Posted - 2005.12.10 11:20:00 -
[17]
I have only opened 4 petitions to this date (15months of play)
I've never needed a reason to escalate them, Once in awhile sure.. But I personally run a few large services (I broke over 200,000 users earlier this year) I have 7 staff running the show, It does get annoying every time someone asks "well no i want to talk to a founder/head administrator - put me up the ladder" not only is their time already precious, but what use is having the other staff if they are gonna get leap frogged over all the time?
This new addition sound's reasonable to me, Once in awhile a GM won't give you an answer you like - I'm sure everyone has a change they don't like. No big deal. 
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Siigari Kitawa
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Posted - 2005.12.10 11:24:00 -
[18]
This thread makes my head hurt.
I work at a call center, and am a CSR3 (that means I'm the escalated call specialist.) NEVER in my life have I abused being a CSR3 and I don't think that they do. I pay happily knowing that if there's a problem, every ship, weapon, drone, and other miscellaneous item is paid for with FAKE MONEY. It's not real, people! I think the GM's know that, I sure as hell hope you do, and if there's a problem they will FIX IT.
____
Click me
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Sarmea Moon
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Posted - 2005.12.10 11:25:00 -
[19]
Sounds to me like they just want to stop people from playing the *mama and papa* game. Mommy won't let me xyz, so let me go ask daddy. You'd be suprised at the number of adults who try to play that game in any controlled environment. They aren't saying don't escalate. They are saying, make sure you have a good reason before you do.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.12.10 12:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jonis Sinmaker
[ The GM's are only human so for us to ask for a second opinion or a second look at something from a senior (more experienced) GM shouldn't cause us to get flagged.
And it won't.
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.12.10 12:29:00 -
[21]
Originally by: headbutt
Its that little thing called GM discretion that they put into nearly every rule. Do you really think that after your flagged the lower gm won't tell you no because he knows the higher level gm will side with him more often than not, because you do have a flag on your name.
Like I said .. if I'd written the system, it sure as hell wouldn't. The GM shouldn't even be able to SEE the flag, it's got nothing to do with your current petition.
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Kerushi
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Posted - 2005.12.10 13:14:00 -
[22]
recent expirience with an petition and all i can see we have a bunch of great gm`s 
________________
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Sarkos
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Posted - 2005.12.10 13:17:00 -
[23]
I see nothing wrong with the statement. It's simply a means of seperating actualy valid petitions and someone constantly whining. Imagine dealing with someone every other day or so that petitions each time they lose a ship. Perhaps once for lag, another because they were stuck on an asteroid, a third because instead of reaching the gate and safty they struck the billboard and died. It would be horribly frustrating and a pain for the GM's.
All that statement does is set ground rules to keep player abuse of petitions at a minimum, that's all. As much as I would like to get some ships back that died under conditions I feel may have been dubious, If I can't PROVE a game issue caused it, neither can the GM's, thus no help. Accept it, suck it up and continue.
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
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Katchoo
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Posted - 2005.12.10 13:31:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Toutaku
In other MMORPG's like Ragnarok Online, WoW, etc., the GM's dont even interact in person. They only send you these crap automated responses that just get on your nerves. Or it takes them like 3 months to even take a look at your problem.
I like the GM back from Ultima Online... I remember an accidet with a ship docked in a "tow away" zone, blocking access to a mine. I paged (UO slang for petition) a GM and he removed the ship - blasting fire from the heavens! Quite a view :)
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.12.10 13:37:00 -
[25]
This sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
You dont get to a senior position or position of trust in an organisation without being capable and trustworthy.
Is it possible that this could be abused? Yes.
Is it likely given that people were put into those positions due to maturity, good performance etc? No.
A fuss is being made here over nothing. This is a "catch-all" provision which every contract has to stop people who are clearly being arses from wasting GM time.
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Spy4Hire
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Posted - 2005.12.10 13:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: headbutt
I do not petition ever day or week, only when very odd things happen that i cannot explain why. I have also asked a qestion or two about the reasoning behind other not ingame rules CCP has regarding eve.
I asked to have one petition escalated - because the game was acting very, very strangely.
I lost a ship to rats that I had always been able to withstand previously without breaking a sweat or my shield... I wanted to check the combat log and see what those ships were dealing out... but I found no log. I found no logs at all for all of the ratting I had done that day... all I got were system change logs and chats.
But the GM in question curtly said that there was nothing wrong on their end (of course), and no log of the event there, either. So I asked to have it escalated.
The response I got from the escallation pretty much mirrored exactly, word for word, what the first GM said.
Dissatisfied with customer service I have been since that moment. Compounded by a long argument with one about 'empty' escrow scams (the fellow refused to admit that they existed, repeatedly saying that there was something in the escow but never identifying that something). I didn't even bother to escalate that simply because of the first GM's idiotic obduracy.
I don't even bother with them any more - it appears that only 'special' people get things replaced. I can't define special, but I know I aint among them.
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.12.10 14:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: headbutt
Edited by: headbutt on 10/12/2005 06:55:01
Now before you mods try to lock this GM Guard said it was ok to discuss this customer service rule. It is even posted on the support section of the site.
This is meant to be a constructive thread to discuss the rule and what it may or may not mean to the players of eve. PLEASE KEEP THE THREAD CLEAN SO WE CAN ALL TALK ABOUT THIS.
Now here is the new rule set. No idea when it went into effect.
Link to new rule page or read below
Quote:
If you are dissatisfied with a regular Game Master's (GM1) handling of your petition, you have the right to request that it be escalated to a senior Game Master (GM2). However, there are a few caveats that apply:
A GM1 is your first point of contact at Customer Support and is thus the first person who'll attempt to help you with your problem. While there may be some issues that require direct escalation to a GM2, in most cases the GM1 will try to resolve the matter without escalation. The GM1 will not escalate a petition unless those attempts have been exhausted.
Likewise, the GM1 must have all the relevant data before escalating. If a GM1 asks for additional information, the case will not be escalated until he receives that information.
Once a petition is escalated, the GM2 will handle only the problem you originally petitioned about. If you update the petition with any additional or unrelated issues, it will be sent back down to the GM1 for review.
If the GM2 doesn't find that the matter should have been treated any different than it was by the GM1, your account will be flagged. If we find that you persistently request the escalation of your petitions, and that the GM2 are giving you the same response every time as the GM1 did, your account may receive a warning for wasting CS's time.
I have an issue with the whole idea of flagging of an account. So here are my issues/questions.
Who makes the decision if you are trying to reason with them that you are wasting their time? I think we all pay for their time, so its really ours not theirs.
I heard that the GM's play eve, what is to stop them from rampant abuse of this for things that happen to them in game?
Nearly everyone that has played a while has had a horrible response from a GM. Then asked to have that escalated to the next level out of shear frustration or because it seemed to be truely something that should be looked into. I guess all that fit that catagory are flagged. No matter the issues.....
This system is ripe and ready now for GM abuse.
If you are flagged what is to stop the GM's from instantly saying "insert canned response NO #1" because of the flag?
I have watched as some people get a ship returned from a bug during a battle where the person fighting directly next to them did not. Does this mean the Flagging system has been around a long time and abuse of it is already happening?
What is to stop the GM's from flagging evil pirates that ruin others game play, and not flagging happy go lucky miners?
I pay for this game with two accounts, I feel that these are valid questions of a service I recieve. I do not petition ever day or week, only when very odd things happen that i cannot explain why. I have also asked a qestion or two about the reasoning behind other not ingame rules CCP has regarding eve.
Anyway I felt that a good discussion might figure this out better.
excuse the grammar and spelling i am to tired to fix it now.
imho, you're being paranoid.
-------------------
Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you |
Corvus Dove
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Posted - 2005.12.10 14:29:00 -
[28]
TO the OP:
You do realize that nearly every customer service center comments or flags accounts for the same reasons, right?
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 This post brought to you by the letter YARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR |
Ebil Fred
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Posted - 2005.12.10 15:48:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Teles666
I think your lucky you can escalate it - how many times on the phone to your electric company etc have you asked to speak to a manager and got it?
Im a manager for a helpdesk in a big UK company and I can assure you that I spend a lot of time telling costomers who have escalated to me that I agree with the original call centre agents decision and that I will not be overuling them. I take an average of 4 escalations a day and I would say I directly contradict what my agent said about once a month. Everytime I do that I take the agent aside a politely explain exactly why I have overuled them and thus help them make better decisions in the first place. I Imagine most customer services are run in a similar fashion
(\ _ (O /) o) . <) (> I cut up teh bunneh too. |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.12.10 16:17:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Corvus Dove
TO the OP:
You do realize that nearly every customer service center comments or flags accounts for the same reasons, right?
Yes. Of course, in the op's for this I have read there is usually a time limit set on the flag if it was about a single issue as well. (A second incident of the sort while the first is still set makes it permernant)
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
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