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Commander Nikolas
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:01:00 -
[1]
Alright all the devs need to stop... stop and start thinking for once.
The raven is sickly over-powered. You devs need to stop listening to these Caldari care bares and make the raven a balanced ship.
LetÆs go over the list of sick advantages that the raven has:
#1. It can fit a tank in its mid slots and damage mods in its lows. Armor tankers have to choose between a tank and damage.
Effect: The raven has the best damage and the best tank in the whole game. WTF?
#2. Missiles have the best range of all weapons and they do not have to worry about optimal range, falloff, or tracking.
Effect: Ravens can hit any ship regardless of speed without any problems; where as large turrets simply miss anything small orbiting them. The Raven can also deal maximum damage from any distance, no falloff to worry about.
#3. Missiles use no cap to fire so all the cap on a raven is for tanking.
Effect: The ship is not affected by NOS in any meaningful way; well all other ships are completely shut down by NOS. The amarr have to choose between cap for firing and cap for tanking (second best tanking race).
#4. Missiles are the most damaging weapon in the game, hands down.
Effect: No other ship can compete 1 vs. 1 with the raven. Torps deal so much damage that there is virtually no way to tank them. Where as blasters, "the mythical most damaging weapon in eve" are easily tanked by a raven. Since the raven has no optimal range to worry about (like all other ships do), it can simply insta boom the best sniping tempest and the best blasterthron without trouble.
#5 FOFs... stupid FOFs
Effect: The EW that works so well on every other race is pretty meaningless against a raven. Any smart raven pilot will carry a small amount of FOFs in case they are jammed. What magic ammo do guns have if they are tracking disrupted or sensor damped? Seriously, what ammo?
Suggestions:
#1: Missiles should use cap, just like everything else.
#2: Missiles should have an arming time after firing or splash damage. So that torps and cruise missiles cannot be used in close (just like real torpedoes and cruiser missiles).
#2: Ballistic Controls need to be in a mid slot.
#3: The new damage controls should give much better resists to armor then they currently do.
#4: Give me a ôShoot randomly at objectö function that would accomplish something similar to FOFs.
#5: Release ARMOR TANKING SKILLS!!!
#6: The Ravens drone bay should be 0
Deal with this problem soonà stop making it worse.
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captian jackharkness
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:04:00 -
[2]
Guess you lost your mega or something to a raven tonight then 
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Kabalevsky
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:06:00 -
[3]
/me plays a tiny violin
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:07:00 -
[4]
Do you even know WTF you're talking about????? There are no F.o.F's for Torps/Cruise classes..............
but yeah they're overpower. THEY HAVE BEEN SINCE THE MISSILE CHANGE!
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:08:00 -
[5]
 Quote:
#1: Missiles should use cap, just like everything else.
Erm, Maybe.
Quote:
#2: Missiles should have an arming time after firing or splash damage. So that torps and cruise missiles cannot be used in close (just like real torpedoes and cruiser missiles).
You can still hit someone at 1km with turrets, any turrets.
Quote:
#2: Ballistic Controls need to be in a mid slot.
Damage mods are low slots, won't change because it's shield tanking.
Quote:
#3: The new damage controls should give much better resists to armor then they currently do.
Sacrifice medium slots for tanking, lose tackling, who cares?
Quote:
#4: Give me a ôShoot randomly at objectö function that would accomplish something similar to FOFs.
If a gun can't track, you'll just 'randomly miss'.
Quote:
#5: Release ARMOR TANKING SKILLS!!!
Why, has there been any new shield tanking skill other than shield compensation? You want armor compensation? (good idea tho).
Quote:
#6: The Ravens drone bay should be 0
It's a battleship, all battleships have dronebay, regardless of race.
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TheLegalPirate
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:08:00 -
[6]
hey bud not to be mean or nothing but seriously learn about the ships, the raven got so nerfed man. it usto be able to tank concord ships now concord walk all over it, the ship is a battleship... get that, and learn caldari, the shield tank not armor tank
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Gorion Wassenar
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:09:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#2. Missiles have the best range of all weapons and they do not have to worry about optimal range, falloff, or tracking.
Next time you fire a torp at a frigate, let me know. Because last I checked it nearly didn't work at all.
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Co-CEO of TKI
http://caldari-united.altgamer.com/forum/index.php |
Jim Steele
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:10:00 -
[8]
yeah its true the raven pwns all but then its vunerable to tracking disruptors... oh wait...
Author of "The Apoc Guide" |
Emperor Coth
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:11:00 -
[9]
The curve for raven is interesting, compared to turrets, the missiles start and continue at a higher curve than the turrets, then turrets sharply increase above the raven curve of damage at the t2 level particularly.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Gorion Wassenar
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#2. Missiles have the best range of all weapons and they do not have to worry about optimal range, falloff, or tracking.
Next time you fire a torp at a frigate, let me know. Because last I checked it nearly didn't work at all.
Hit a webbed frigate with mwd running with your torpedo.
Miss a webbed frigate with mwd using your Large Turret.
Damage is small, but it is damage.
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Cheechako
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:12:00 -
[11]
Whaa Whaaa Whaaa.
Fact: The Raven is awesome against other BSs usings Torps.
Fact: The Raven does horrible dmg to frigs and ceptors.
Fact: Missiles are not insta hit weapons.
To me, it seems fairly balanced. When I'm in a fleet battle, I have to use cruisemissiles in order for me to have a chance to hit primary targets, because torps take way to long to get to target. Gun ships also have the chance of nailing ceptors from long range, whereas thats just not the case with ravens. We are seriously gimped against smaller stuff. I'm fine with this.. I understand thats a part of "balance".
As to your point #1, we have to chose between shield tank and EWAR/tackling stuff. Most other races can fill up their mids with damps, boosters, etc while that eats into our tank. Also, mimm don't require cap to fire guns.
#4. Torps are very damaging, but saying the torpedo represents all missiles is just well... not looking at the whole picture.
#5. FoFs( use drones and the raven will be shooting itself)
Oh, your suggestions are pretty funny too. Splash dmg? You know that was taken out awhile ago right?
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Star Crush
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:12:00 -
[12]
With every patch it goes back and forth on the raven, its uber, it sucks, its uber, it sucks. dont know whey there are so much whiners on any ship really, as eve is a skill based game you can fly anything you want, its a investment in time but hey its good for eve because you constantly have something to shoot for (and keeps ya paying those bucks every month) IF everything was as balanced as everyone screams for it would get boring because their would be nothing to whine about. Make suggestions then get over it till the next patch the Devs know what they are doing.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:13:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 13/12/2005 23:15:01
That is a very one-sided comparison (is that even possible o.0).
I'm not saying that the raven is not overpowered, but you might want to list the disadvantages of the raven too, otherwise some people are going to get mad against you for ignoring them (flames following shortly). Aside that, Fof point is moot, really, considering they don't fit on a torp raven and aren't that bright chasing light drones either.
Edit: o.0 exactly what i expected... by the time i wrote 4 lines.
Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
---
Spreadsheet - Damage @ range.
Check for updates/known issues and report bugs/problems/questions/other feedback. |
Border201
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:15:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Border201 on 13/12/2005 23:21:08
The only thing I have to say to this is you haven't fought in a raven against a ceptor or AF, Or even Cruisers should the Raven be fitted with torps. I'll agree that the Raven can hit the "I win button" when it goes against other BS's but to say it's over powered is a joke. The most obvious thing here that you forgot to point out is that even though a Raven as you put it can "tank and gank" Try also webbing/scraming your target so they don't get away. Like it or not a Raven can not 1 volley a BS which means any BS worth there salt will jump out has soon as they see a raven. This would also counter your argument of them being uneffected by jamming the missles do less damage if there FoF as well as they aren't going to strike the same target if there is more then one in range. Secondly JAMMING A RAVEN REMOVES IT'S WEB/SCRAM!!! and Nos-ing a Raven completely kills it's tank unlike armor tankers who can fit very nice passive tanking mods.
*Edit* I agree naughty boy only had 1 reply when I started typing this.
Originally by: corporal hicks
Internet: where men are men, women are men and kids are cops
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:15:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Fact: The Raven does horrible dmg to frigs and ceptors.
Almost all battleships do this you moron. This is still not a threat to NOT fly a raven. Stop using those excuses.
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:16:00 -
[16]
Originally by: captian jackharkness
Guess you lost your mega or something to a raven tonight then
signed
At least not the 'boost megat blasters having too low dps!11oneone!111'
btw, Shield tanking doesnt allow full damage mods. Why? Because armor tank can use med slots for cap rechargers or cap boosters. Whilist if Raven will fit 4x Hardener, 1x XL Booster 1x Booster Amplifier, and fit full rack of BCU, then it wont hold much. Certainly not the 'best tank'. Low-slots are used also for aiding the cap, exactly like you fit cap booster and cap recharger, Raven would fit a PDU. Now PDU maybe affecting other stats, but it cant give 20% recharge alone, or maybe act like booster and fill your cap with +400-800 cap instantly. So imo its a very good balancing.
As for hitting a target...Raven with torps have equal chance of hitting smaller targets as a Megat with 425s.
-=-
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Tido Maliyu
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:16:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Tido Maliyu on 13/12/2005 23:19:42
This is rediculous...
The raven has the most cap hungry tank ever! 1 or 2 nos and he's out of business.
ALL and i mean ALL other weapons have insta-hit. You don't have to wait 10+ seconds for the lasers to hit.
Although you don't hit frigates when they're orbitting you up close you'll hit them at 20K+ if they warp in or something. If they get under your range, fit a web and drones will take care of them. Note that all the other bs's have a bigger drone bay.
Missiles have the highest damage but the slowest rof. Only way to get that ROF down is with named launchers, weapon mods and BCU's.
We got tracking dissers and ECM you got defenders. Notice every BS except geddon and domi(best tank ingame possibly) has a missile slot, we have to take away from our tank in mids. Have you ever seen a raven setup with tracking dissers though?
Any other basic facts about eve you wanna know?
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Draximus Cane: wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I' |
HellsRazor
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:17:00 -
[18]
Edited by: HellsRazor on 13/12/2005 23:18:35
umm...Ravens deal the most damage....really? here i thought it was Tempy.. but yeah the raven can tank for a short ammount of time and still use damage mods. The Raven is seriously only a BS that is powerful against other bs and some cruisers imo. The fact it has great potential to kill other BS as long as SP and fit is good..unlike prepatch. FACT is CALDARI is suppose to be a pure combat race when game started and the fact when i picked caldari because it was suppose to be battle focused and second fastest race in game ...and i gave up the attributes that naturally go to other races, BUT, i guess i need to cry at how crappy mining in a caldari ship is so i can get more isk to buy over priced caldari fittings. I dont care what most think the caldari ships are really powerful but its a rich mans ship if you really want to see what it can do.(and your sp in missiles and EW have to be good unlike before).
just my opinion
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HellsRazor
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:23:00 -
[19]
and what other say about missile flight time is a good point ...instant damage is a serious advantage... not to mention smart bombs can really rain on a missile boats day.Not to mention that means a raven cant use smarties unless he wants to take the chance of poppin his own missiles..... but maybe if smarties hurt gun ships too... and another couple pluses like sum guns not using ammo just cap is nerfed then you would have an arguement. But it all comes down too, all races have there advantages... use them
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slackjawed
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:29:00 -
[20]
i'm kinda split on this, on one hand its very balanced PvE wise, on the PvP side any shield tank ship has lots of mids which opens it up to ditching the tank and going EW with Gank or stabs (VERY VERY effective on the raven.
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HellsRazor
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:34:00 -
[21]
yea... then we start hating on every BS...Domi can tank ...tackle....vamp...drones to kill with. and since he can vamp tacklers they cant tackle well and warp out. but you know wat...thats fine where its strong in one way its weak in another. thats what makes eve great.
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Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:37:00 -
[22]
ahahhaah
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Oveur > CUZ IM EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEME!!!! |
Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:41:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 13/12/2005 23:47:04
Hahaha! Oh my God this is thread is GOLD.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#1. It can fit a tank in its mid slots and damage mods in its lows. Armor tankers have to choose between a tank and damage.
Effect: The raven has the best damage and the best tank in the whole game. WTF?
Uh, actually, to get ANY kind of real damage output the Raven needs to fit ballistic controls. Because missiles do consistant, but AVERAGE damage, and can't get wtf-wrecking shots etc, it needs a tank to protect itself. Shield tanks are not sustainable, they work in bigger bursts but that eventually drains cap. The idea is that the ship (hopefully) can tank long enough to do the damage required. This is why shield tanks don't last forever 1v1, unlike like armor tanks.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#2. Missiles have the best range of all weapons and they do not have to worry about optimal range, falloff, or tracking.
This is compensated by doing average damage with a pitiful RoF and not being able to hit with "wrecking shots." Next?
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#3. Missiles use no cap to fire so all the cap on a raven is for tanking.
Cap also runs out much faster on a Raven, because shield tanking is more cap hungry per second than armor tanking.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#4. Missiles are the most damaging weapon in the game, hands down.
I suggest you look at some DPS charts that have been compiled for the battleships, you'll see that the Raven is somewhere in the middle, if not at the lower end, of the chart.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#5 FOFs... stupid FOFs
Raven cannot use these if they use torpedos anyway, and cruise missiles do FAR less damage so you're not going to see many people using FOFs anyway.
Besides, FOFs are not useful in anything but 1v1s. How many times have you been in a battleship battle on TQ that was 1v1?
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#1: Missiles should use cap, just like everything else.
And then a Raven's tank will be gone, therefore making these ships useless.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#2: Missiles should have an arming time after firing or splash damage.
Splash damage would make server load too high and would make missile ships useless in Empire.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#2: Ballistic Controls need to be in a mid slot.
Only if the damage modifier is higher than what it is today.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#3: The new damage controls should give much better resists to armor then they currently do.
So that they'll be better than energized nanos? Geez, they already gave less resist to shield than to armour, get over it.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#4: Give me a ôShoot randomly at objectö function that would accomplish something similar to FOFs.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#5: Release ARMOR TANKING SKILLS!!!
There are 4 shield and 4 armour compensation skills in the next patch.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
#6: The Ravens drone bay should be 0
This is the best one of the entire bunch. So you're basically saying that a Raven should have no protection versus frigates. Right...? Even though the drone bays for turreted battleships are generally HIGHER than that of a Raven, and even though turret bs can snipe frigates for massive damage when they are > 30k away, unlike missiles, which can't do ANY damage to fast moving ships.
I was killed by a Megathron on Singularity yesterday. I was at full speed in my Crow (4k/s) and 35km from him. Similarily, I killed a stealth bomber with my Crow on the same day and I was at 30k and full speed.
Please, stop with the missiles are overpowered threads. They're very irrational.
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MrJordanIOI
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:43:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
ahahhaah
This ^---- up here is the most appropriate answer tho this thread really ;D
btw. fitting all those launchers, then a shield AND damage mods is really really hard on the CPU a RAven can provide.
IOI
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Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:44:00 -
[25]
On a more serious note: do you have a problem with Torp Raven or Cruise Raven, or missiles in general, you seem to be a little confused as to what can be achieved doing what.
As far as i can see you are just another unexperienced player crying about something you have no clue about.
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Oveur > CUZ IM EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEME!!!! |
Angus Therm0pyle
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:45:00 -
[26]
ok one thing ccp didn;t tell you its liek this
titan
motherships/carriers
dreadnoughts
anti-bs ships = raven
Battleships
bc
cruisers
frigates
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EvilTwin I
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:49:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Do you even know WTF you're talking about????? There are no F.o.F's for Torps/Cruise classes..............
HAHAHA!
dragon f.o.f. cruise missile
hunter f.o.f. cruise missile
phoenix f.o.f. cruise missile
obliterator f.o.f. cruise missile |
KilROCK
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:49:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Angus Therm0pyle
ok one thing ccp didn;t tell you its liek this
titan POOF all of it
motherships/carriers
dreadnoughts
anti-bs ships = raven
Battleships
bc
cruisers
frigates
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Border201
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:53:00 -
[29]
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Angus Therm0pyle
ok one thing ccp didn;t tell you its liek this
titan POOF all of it
motherships/carriers
dreadnoughts
anti-bs ships = raven
Battleships
bc
cruisers
frigates
at the Titan's comment that doomsday weapon is ebil. Also on a side note Kilrock stop getting such nice sigs it's putting mine to shame!! 
Originally by: corporal hicks
Internet: where men are men, women are men and kids are cops
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Commander Nikolas
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Posted - 2005.12.13 23:54:00 -
[30]
I am coming from the perspective of the RMR changes on singularity. Torps and Cruises will deal very good damage to ASs and Interceptors after the patch.
The changes about to come out simply make the raven even more overpowered and what I have seen ravens do on the test server is evil and wrong.
Also just as a point, I didn't loose a ship. Me and a few people I know have just been testing BSs. We have been trying out alot of different concepts. The other BSs seem to have alot of up and downsides and compete against each other. None of them really deal good damage to small ships. Except the raven, the only weakness it used to have was smaller craft, after RMR it will be able to insta boom ceptors and ASs again.
Also to the ***** that called me an idiot for not knowing there were no torp and cruise FOFs... check the market. There are cruise FOFs.
... Final point...
I have never participated too much in the complaining on these fourms... but I can't beleive that the devs are increasing the ravens power and removing its weakness to small ships just so the carebares can have an easier go at their lvl 4 missions. They seem to be able to get an already overpowered ship even more power just by whining the loudest...
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