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Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
367
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Posted - 2013.07.25 13:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
I hate to see a ship dominate so much in the formative first weekend.
I don't think the ship itself is out of balance, but I think the rules have basically shoehorned it into a solid pick.
Sure, there are ship bans for the next week, but for those that either don't get the memo or *shock* try something different it's disappointing and really just makes the first whole weekend a wash.
Am I full of it? (maybe)
Are there some improvements they could make to the tourny outline to help garde (snicker) against this? (bigger arena and warpin options? less restrictions on other ship/mod possibilities? expanded time window combined with these or other changes?)
There are certainly counters to it. There is for anything in Eve. But you cannot discount the utter spam of these setups as a critical flaw to how the tourny is outlined this year.
Hopefully we and they can figure that out and mend it so next year will be even better. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
5517
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Posted - 2013.07.25 14:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
You're not full of it, but I'm not sure there is any reason to get excited here, since this sort of thing happens every year. It's just that the different rules and point costs change what the dominating setup will be each year. It's made worse by the fact, that most teams are quick to copy a strong setup and the really good teams don't want to reveal their hidden aces during the initial group of fights. With the introduction of bans this problem has at least been confined mainly to the first wave of filtering fights and we should see a lot more variation from here on out. |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
111
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Posted - 2013.07.25 14:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
I agree that the OP Domi setups are boring and while we probably won't see them much anymore it's a bit sad that the teams will basically have to waste a mandatory ban on them unless they want to field Domis themselves.
On the other hand it is damn hard for CCP to figure out potentially OP setups in advance to adjust the rules accordingly. They'd probably have to run tournament training sessions themselves to do it with all the organization and work that comes with it. I fully expect them to adjust the rules for the next tournament to make life harder for Domis but doing this correctly in advance for a newly rebalanced ship is quite a difficult task. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
1805
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Posted - 2013.07.25 15:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm glad we have banning to keep the meta moving, definitely not good for something too be too dominant. However, I disagree about boring. Back in my day we had Drake/Tengu turtle comps and ECM comps which couldn't kill anything on the grid. That was boring. Domi mirror matches were really intense and awesome even though its more fun to see a lot of variation. |
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Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
370
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Posted - 2013.07.25 15:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I'm glad we have banning to keep the meta moving, definitely not good for something too be too dominant. However, I disagree about boring. Back in my day we had Drake/Tengu turtle comps and ECM comps which couldn't kill anything on the grid. That was boring. Domi mirror matches were really intense and awesome even though its more fun to see a lot of variation.
RISE
Any plans on nerfing the domi? or nerfing gardes and bouncers tracking? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1185
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Posted - 2013.07.25 17:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'm glad we have banning to keep the meta moving, definitely not good for something too be too dominant. However, I disagree about boring. Back in my day we had Drake/Tengu turtle comps and ECM comps which couldn't kill anything on the grid. That was boring. Domi mirror matches were really intense and awesome even though its more fun to see a lot of variation. RISEAny plans on nerfing the domi? or nerfing gardes and bouncers tracking? Good in AT =//= needs a nerf BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
370
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Posted - 2013.07.25 17:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Harvey James wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'm glad we have banning to keep the meta moving, definitely not good for something too be too dominant. However, I disagree about boring. Back in my day we had Drake/Tengu turtle comps and ECM comps which couldn't kill anything on the grid. That was boring. Domi mirror matches were really intense and awesome even though its more fun to see a lot of variation. RISEAny plans on nerfing the domi? or nerfing gardes and bouncers tracking? Good in AT =//= needs a nerf
there are many ships that are good in AT .. but when every match is domi's vs domi's that's a very clear indication of it being OP even Dolan thought so. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Suitonia
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
189
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Posted - 2013.07.25 17:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'm glad we have banning to keep the meta moving, definitely not good for something too be too dominant. However, I disagree about boring. Back in my day we had Drake/Tengu turtle comps and ECM comps which couldn't kill anything on the grid. That was boring. Domi mirror matches were really intense and awesome even though its more fun to see a lot of variation. RISEAny plans on nerfing the domi? or nerfing gardes and bouncers tracking?
Just because a ship is good in the Alliance Tournament doesn't mean that it isn't balanced on TQ. We have seen no Vagabonds, Cynabals or Zealots in the Tournament for example, does that mean they are undervalued and never used on TQ? Far from it. |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
193
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Posted - 2013.07.25 17:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Harvey James wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'm glad we have banning to keep the meta moving, definitely not good for something too be too dominant. However, I disagree about boring. Back in my day we had Drake/Tengu turtle comps and ECM comps which couldn't kill anything on the grid. That was boring. Domi mirror matches were really intense and awesome even though its more fun to see a lot of variation. RISEAny plans on nerfing the domi? or nerfing gardes and bouncers tracking? Good in AT =//= needs a nerf there are many ships that are good in AT .. but when every match is domi's vs domi's that's a very clear indication of it being OP even Dolan thought so. No it isn't, at all.
The tournament format is what has driven the Domi meta in the first round, that and the fact it was a safe & solid option pre-bans that teams would know worked. The rules with no warping and a relatively small arena mean that sentries + tracking coupled with the mechanic that means that only one person needs to be able to lock things to be able to apply that damage via assignment just made it a logical choice. They aren't insurmountable.
Like Garviel said - good/great in AT =/= good/great on TQ. |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
370
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Posted - 2013.07.25 17:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Harvey James wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Harvey James wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'm glad we have banning to keep the meta moving, definitely not good for something too be too dominant. However, I disagree about boring. Back in my day we had Drake/Tengu turtle comps and ECM comps which couldn't kill anything on the grid. That was boring. Domi mirror matches were really intense and awesome even though its more fun to see a lot of variation. RISEAny plans on nerfing the domi? or nerfing gardes and bouncers tracking? Good in AT =//= needs a nerf there are many ships that are good in AT .. but when every match is domi's vs domi's that's a very clear indication of it being OP even Dolan thought so. No it isn't, at all. The tournament format is what has driven the Domi meta in the first round, that and the fact it was a safe & solid option pre-bans that teams would know worked. The rules with no warping and a relatively small arena mean that sentries + tracking coupled with the mechanic that means that only one person needs to be able to lock things to be able to apply that damage via assignment just made it a logical choice. They aren't insurmountable. Like Garviel said - good/great in AT =/= good/great on TQ.
come on how blind are you people!! 80km medium blasters tracking is what the Domi's gardes are doing this is clearly OP Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
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Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
193
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Posted - 2013.07.25 17:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
In this years tournament, with this years rules? Absolutely.
Welcome to the meta cake, son. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2327
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Posted - 2013.07.25 18:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
I don't find Domi's all that boring nor OP. They are tough, especially with their excellent damage projection. But they have weaknesses too.
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Kristoffon Ellecon
The Bastards Shadow Cartel
81
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Posted - 2013.07.25 19:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Suitonia wrote: Just because a ship is good in the Alliance Tournament doesn't mean that it isn't balanced on TQ. We have seen no Vagabonds, Cynabals or Zealots in the Tournament for example, does that mean they are undervalued and never used on TQ? Far from it.
BUFF CYNABALS |
Kristoffon Ellecon
The Bastards Shadow Cartel
81
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Posted - 2013.07.25 19:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I don't find Domi's all that boring nor OP. They are tough, especially with their excellent damage projection. But they have weaknesses too.
On a more serious note, the issue with Dominixes is their immunity to ewar in an environment where ewar is a primary means of damage mitigation and what often defines the winning side of a fight.
Can't do tracking disruption on them, good luck fitting one module for each of their drones.
Jammed? Sensor dampened? Assign your drones to somebody else.
It isn't that they're OP by themselves, only that they let you fit actual useful modules instead of counter measures to all types of ewar.
AFAIC all ewar (except neuts if they're even considered as such) could be removed from the game and we'd be better off for it, good riddance. |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
296
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 19:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
I think that all these changes in meta relatively TQ should be reflected correctly in point cost. For example, real point price for dominix is 20-23, from my perspective.
Same applies to many other ships, look at ewar frigs costing 4 just because of maulus.
Banning is work around it, but by having awful ship balance in tourney meta, you make people to ban strongest & most often used ships (domi/maulus) because they screw so many other setups. And even after banning these, we still have next wave of not-so-but-still-OP ships incoming, which reduces amount of usable setups & doesn't let teams actually ban ships which fit enemy's playstyle well.
Seriously, i know this is an effort, but consider per-shiptype point system for next tourneys. |
Bob Shaftoes
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
18
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Posted - 2013.07.25 21:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
You cant set individual points values for certain ships.
Not only would that be insane for organizers , it basically means tourney theorycrafters have to memorize even more **** than they do already because not all ship classes will be equal |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
162
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Posted - 2013.07.25 22:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
ffs, we've had successive entire alliance tournaments that were dominated by Drakes/Tengus/Rooks and in the case of Drakes and Tengus 3 years of them topping the killboards on Tranquility and they weren't nerfed until recently.
Now we get one opening round weekend with heavy Domi use and some of you are crying nerf?! Grow some perspective. Would not be surprised to see either the bans or some of the easy counters to sentry use come into play in successive rounds. And as was said above anyway, AT=/= actual in-game combat. Lots of this is based on point assignment. This year it appears tech I BS cost is attractive. Is there a problem on Tranqulity with Domis topping the killboards for 3 years in a row, or even one month? No. So take your knee-jerk nerf plea and shove it. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
367
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 23:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
I am not crying nerf. I just wanted to open a dialogue on it. Because we've seen worse in the past is no reason to not try and reach for better in the future
I was here for every single alliance tournament, I'm not ignorant to to the realities of ships being able to shine in a regulated and pre-formatted engagement.
Like I said, there are counters. But I'm not sure that given the specific tournament conditions that these counters can be equally weighed with the benefits particularly sentry drones with perfect tracking provide. One thing Eve tranquility combat has as a foundation is the ability to tactically maneuver on and off grid in such cases and to escalate the engagement, (which the tournament realities are obviously going to remove. )
So what can we do to open up tactics against? I'm not really in a position (read; active enough) to weigh whether or not Domi's are OP on tranq (and I don't want to insinuate tourny balance == tranquility balance.), but we can hold those discussions separately.
That said, if a tracking disruptor could impact the drone tracking I think that makes sense. It was a smart move when they applied them to missiles and it would be a smart move to apply it to drone hulls, especially the domi; whose hull from which the tracking bonus are applied to begin with.
Rise, I know you and many at CCP have taken a very bold and serious look at ever improving balance. I think this is worth considering (*cough* along with making my tempest more than a bc *cough)
Anyways, thanks for the replies and keep up the good work!
/how do you think it would work if bans applied period. As in: going into the tourny from the first match of the first day people can pick a ship to ban? Worth thinking about. |
Professor Clio
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
216
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Posted - 2013.07.26 00:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
[quote=Pr1ncess Alia] That said, if a tracking disruptor could impact the drone tracking I think that makes sense. It was a smart move when they applied them to missiles and it would be a smart move to apply it to drone hulls, especially the domi; whose hull from which the tracking bonus are applied to begin with. /quote]
Except they never did apply them to missiles, they said they would and then they didn't. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
810
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 02:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
The only thing that might be nerfable is the fact that you can assign drones to an instalocker and then the instalocker suddenly does 750 dps. Assigning drones works fine but there should be a bit of delay, especially from a BS using them. |
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Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
368
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Posted - 2013.07.26 03:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Professor Clio wrote: Except they never did apply them to missiles, they said they would and then they didn't.
lol really? Yeah that shows how active I've been on Tranq the last year
Too bad too, it was a really good idea. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
162
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Posted - 2013.07.26 03:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Professor Clio wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: That said, if a tracking disruptor could impact the drone tracking I think that makes sense. It was a smart move when they applied them to missiles and it would be a smart move to apply it to drone hulls, especially the domi; whose hull from which the tracking bonus are applied to begin with.
Except they never did apply them to missiles, they said they would and then they didn't. Yeah well if TD could affect drones then maybe everyone should be able to have their 7 or 8 guns or launchers be destructible, and can't deploy anymore . .
oh and how about creating a wonderful new clunky interface for the launchers,
and let's remove the ability to overheat them
etc
then we'll be all even in everything |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1188
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 04:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Seriously sentries are awesome.. But they are too gimicky to be overpowered.
The AT setup simply removes about 90% of the gimp factor from their use so they seem extremely powerful in that setting. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
368
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Posted - 2013.07.26 05:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:Professor Clio wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: That said, if a tracking disruptor could impact the drone tracking I think that makes sense. It was a smart move when they applied them to missiles and it would be a smart move to apply it to drone hulls, especially the domi; whose hull from which the tracking bonus are applied to begin with.
Except they never did apply them to missiles, they said they would and then they didn't. Yeah well if TD could affect drones then maybe everyone should be able to have their 7 or 8 guns or launchers be destructible, and can't deploy anymore . . oh and how about creating a wonderful new clunky interface for the launchers, and let's remove the ability to overheat them etc then we'll be all even in everything edit - not responsible for what an overheated drone might think and do
Well, all weapon systems are destructible.
As for clunky interface, I think that covers the overheating feature fairly well.
But none of this is really on topic anymore. We've already established that TQ balance isn't tourny balance. This thread is about the flavor-of-the-year for the matches. Don't get too hung up there, no one is hating on your drone systems.
Personally I quite accidentally suggested just letting people ban a ship outright from the get go of day on -on, but it does make sense.
Introducing it in the 2nd week seems rather just arbitrary the more I think about it. All it is going to do is foster the 'get onboard with the yearly flavor or die' thing in the first weekend. Which is just a shame.
There were some good setups that first weekend that you just look at and say "yeah, but it's not going to do crap against those domi's once their light support gets blasted out of the sky" |
Tetsel
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
82
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Posted - 2013.07.26 08:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
So Dom setup is Domi-nating, and the ban will force team to change setup... mmm...
What if I told you that every team that like domi setup will not call ban on them hoping the opponnent will not either ?
I think we will have more Domi setup and I hope it will make you made OP !!! Loyal servent to Mother Amamake.
Twitter:-á-á-á-á@EVE_Tetsel-á-á-á@HereticArmy |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
111
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Posted - 2013.07.26 08:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Personally I quite accidentally suggested just letting people ban a ship outright from the get go of day on -on, but it does make sense.
Introducing it in the 2nd week seems rather just arbitrary the more I think about it. All it is going to do is foster the 'get onboard with the yearly flavor or die' thing in the first weekend. Which is just a shame. This is not a yet-unthought thought though (don't try to read this out loud at home, kids), as far as I can tell the only reason why there are no bans on the first weekend is that there are too many fights in too short time to make the addition of bans feasible. Because doing those bans does take time.
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Christopher Multsanti
Frag Executors ROMANIAN-LEGION
3
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Posted - 2013.07.26 09:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:come on how blind are you people!! 80km medium blasters tracking is what the Domi's gardes are doing this is clearly OP
Jamming Domis, they were OP. |
Yendaj
THE FINAL STAND
12
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Posted - 2013.07.26 11:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tetsel wrote:So Dom setup is Domi-nating, and the ban will force team to change setup... mmm...
What if I told you that every team that like domi setup will not call ban on them hoping the opponnent will not either ?
I think we will have more Domi setup and I hope it will make you made OP !!!
What?
Anyone facing you scrubs would be sure to ban the domi as it seems to be the only ships you can actually force a win with.
Then again, you were annihilated by No Holes Barred with one of your own set ups...
You then managed to drag back a win by copying the majority of good alliances and their set ups to beat the WORST team in the tourney
Perhaps the next team you come up against doesnt need to ban the domi so much as ban your FC's and team management
ps [edit]: Based on the fact that the second worst team in the tourney [Heretic Initiative] can pull out a win using someone elses domi set up, I suggest its definitely OP in tourney environment and everyone should chuck in a ban so we can see some real fights with good piloting and strategies. |
Tetsel
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
82
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Posted - 2013.07.26 15:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yendaj wrote:Tetsel wrote:So Dom setup is Domi-nating, and the ban will force team to change setup... mmm...
What if I told you that every team that like domi setup will not call ban on them hoping the opponnent will not either ?
I think we will have more Domi setup and I hope it will make you made OP !!! What? Anyone facing you scrubs would be sure to ban the domi as it seems to be the only ships you can actually force a win with. Then again, you were annihilated by No Holes Barred with one of your own set ups... You then managed to drag back a win by copying the majority of good alliances and their set ups to beat the WORST team in the tourney Perhaps the next team you come up against doesnt need to ban the domi so much as ban your FC's and team management ps [edit]: Based on the fact that the second worst team in the tourney [Heretic Initiative] can pull out a win using someone elses domi set up, I suggest its definitely OP in tourney environment and everyone should chuck in a ban so we can see some real fights with good piloting and strategies.
I can't wait our great leader/FC/Managment to take over back and lead us to great victory... till then we have to fail miserabily and take bad decision. Hopefully our current Team Manger will look after your great achievement over this tourney, as your team seems unbeatable and fueled by high set-up creativity, wait, wait, wait... can you remind me the name of your great and awesome team ? Waiting for those event to happen we will consider the Domi set-up as a valid fleet and I think we are not the only ones.
So can't wait to see more Domi on the field to **** off more people and commentators <3
I love you too Yendaj <3 XoXo Loyal servent to Mother Amamake.
Twitter:-á-á-á-á@EVE_Tetsel-á-á-á@HereticArmy |
Yendaj
THE FINAL STAND
13
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Posted - 2013.07.27 07:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tetsel wrote:Yendaj wrote:Tetsel wrote:So Dom setup is Domi-nating, and the ban will force team to change setup... mmm...
What if I told you that every team that like domi setup will not call ban on them hoping the opponnent will not either ?
I think we will have more Domi setup and I hope it will make you made OP !!! What? Anyone facing you scrubs would be sure to ban the domi as it seems to be the only ships you can actually force a win with. Then again, you were annihilated by No Holes Barred with one of your own set ups... You then managed to drag back a win by copying the majority of good alliances and their set ups to beat the WORST team in the tourney Perhaps the next team you come up against doesnt need to ban the domi so much as ban your FC's and team management ps [edit]: Based on the fact that the second worst team in the tourney [Heretic Initiative] can pull out a win using someone elses domi set up, I suggest its definitely OP in tourney environment and everyone should chuck in a ban so we can see some real fights with good piloting and strategies. OMAGAWD PLEASE LET US USE THE DOMI SET UP PIZZA, IS THE ONLY CHANCE WE HAVE!!
Fixed it for you again |
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