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Jump Freighters are 100% invulnerable in lowsec and need a nerf

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Heather Tsukaya Perkone Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.07.27 13:46:00 - [1] - Quote It is impossible for them to die if they're piloted in a certain way. I don't think any ship should be invulnerable. That is why CCP created infinity point tacklers after all, so that certain ships wouldn't be 100% invincible when piloted in lowsec. Here is a guide that says how to piloit jump freighters without ever dying: http://crackerjax.org/gwiki/GoonWIki/wiki.goonfleet.com/Category_Jump_Freighters.html Basically: * They can't be killed after jumping to the cyno, because they jump into dock range so they can instantly dock. * They can't be killed after undocking, because they ctrl+space immediately so they never end up outside of redocking range, then when the SCT is over they can try and jump to the stargate * While warping to stargate, they can be tackled and fired upon, but they can't be killed because they can instantly redock if threatened *They can't be killed after coming out of warp at the stargate, because they can instantly jump through it into highsec The result is that jump freighters can move from system to system with 100% safety. I think the idea that some ships can be 100% safe in lowsec goes against CCP's design goals. It takes all the risk out of transporting materials, which in turn removes a huge aspect of Eve's gameplay. Basically the only time a traveling ship is vulnerable to attack is when coming out of a stargate, but jump freighters can travel through lowsec without ever having to come out of a stargate, so they're never vulnerable to attack. I really hope CCP does something about this. It creates a big gulf between the have nots, who can get gate camped while trying to move stuff around and the haves who can use jump drives to move goods around at absolutely zero risk.
Aquila Sagitta Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 80	Posted - 2013.07.27 14:21:00 - [2] - Quote ..uhh so whats your idea/feature?
Emma Yobibit Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2013.07.27 14:29:00 - [3] - Quote Tell me that again next time you see them make errors and run away at 1 000m/s up to 20km from the station, or tell me that when they jump in a POS without a station in system. Tell me that when you see one get bumped because it took more then 30 seconds to dock in, or because it got pumped while undocking. They are not invulnerable, they cost 7 billion and the fuel for them costs them more then 10 million isk per jump. And with that they carry less then half the cargo of normal freighters. Every ship playing station games is safe, not only jump freighters, so start talking about that.
Heather Tsukaya Perkone Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.07.27 14:34:00 - [4] - Quote Aquila Sagitta wrote: ..uhh so whats your idea/feature? Maybe disallow cynos super close to stations.
Heather Tsukaya Perkone Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.07.27 14:46:00 - [5] - Quote Emma Yobibit wrote: Tell me that again next time you see them make errors and run away at 1 000m/s up to 20km from the station, or tell me that when they jump in a POS without a station in system. Tell me that when you see one get bumped because it took more then 30 seconds to dock in, or because it got pumped while undocking. They are not invulnerable, they cost 7 billion and the fuel for them costs them more then 10 million isk per jump. And with that they carry less then half the cargo of normal freighters. Every ship playing station games is safe, not only jump freighters, so start talking about that. Every ship coming out of a station right is safe sure, but non caps have periods where they can be intercepted and attacked. Sure jump freighter pilots can screw up and lose their ships, but "100% invulnerable unless you do something stupid" is still way over powered.
Emma Yobibit Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2013.07.27 14:53:00 - [6] - Quote Heather Tsukaya wrote: Aquila Sagitta wrote: ..uhh so whats your idea/feature? Maybe disallow cynos super close to stations. So you want jump freighters to jump in 5km from a station, that means it would take about an average of more then 50 seconds for them to get about in docking range Rending cynos usless because freighters take about 40-50 seconds to warp, cynos exist to remove the gate camping problem.
Emma Yobibit Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2013.07.27 14:57:00 - [7] - Quote Heather Tsukaya wrote: Emma Yobibit wrote: Tell me that again next time you see them make errors and run away at 1 000m/s up to 20km from the station, or tell me that when they jump in a POS without a station in system. Tell me that when you see one get bumped because it took more then 30 seconds to dock in, or because it got pumped while undocking. They are not invulnerable, they cost 7 billion and the fuel for them costs them more then 10 million isk per jump. And with that they carry less then half the cargo of normal freighters. Every ship playing station games is safe, not only jump freighters, so start talking about that. Every ship coming out of a station right is safe sure, but non caps have periods where they can be intercepted and attacked. Sure jump freighter pilots can screw up and lose their ships, but "100% invulnerable unless you do something stupid" is still way over powered. 100% is a wrong number and you know that, considering you paid 7 billions just to avoid gate camps means that you had to wrok around 300 man hours to get it (if you always make 20millions an hour) Its not a time saver and a long investment. So your lets say 99% safe. Who cares? 99% is 1 time every 100 jumps you make, you will of made more then 100 jumps if you want to make profits with your freighter.
PopeUrban El Expedicion 19	Posted - 2013.07.28 12:22:00 - [8] - Quote Heather Tsukaya wrote: Sure jump freighter pilots can screw up and lose their ships, but "100% invulnerable unless you do something stupid" is still way over powered. Uh. You just described every single ship in lowsec.
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 206	Posted - 2013.07.28 12:28:00 - [9] - Quote Invulnerable in lowsec you say? I disagree: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18940510 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18900631 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18849761 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18846063 How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 15270	Posted - 2013.07.28 12:34:00 - [10] - Quote I don't see any issue with the jump freighter. The issue I see here, is the use of cynos by any ship type, without much of a penalty. If people had to use a dedicated ship type in order to keep instant jump capability, then they would have to risk far more than now. My idea regarding that change. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Naomi Knight Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 448	Posted - 2013.07.28 12:38:00 - [11] - Quote -gank them in high sec , it is 100% doable if you want to do it ,no jf can survive -war dec ---> gank them in high sec when they jump in from low sec -bump them from station maybe you get lucky or just get creative ,there are even more possibilities to kill them
Caleb Seremshur Angel of War Whores in space 31	Posted - 2013.07.28 14:10:00 - [12] - Quote May I point you toward Freight Club? They are HIGHLY successful at catching and killing JF's etc.
Arya Regnar Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 57	Posted - 2013.07.28 14:12:00 - [13] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: May I point you toward Freight Club? They are HIGHLY successful at catching and killing JF's etc. This. Stop moaning because you can't afford a JF OP. EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Liafcipe9000 Smeghead Empire 9101	Posted - 2013.07.28 14:18:00 - [14] - Quote after reading title OP failed to kill a JF in lowsec. everyone point and laugh. You may gain the knowledge, but you will lose your belief, with all its mystery and comfort. If there was proof, absolute and certain, there is an afterlife, why not quit this life, and be done with it? Ponder about these things all your life, and you're a philosopher. Compress these ponderings into a couple of pages, and you'll go mad.
NEONOVUS Saablast Followers 465	Posted - 2013.07.28 18:26:00 - [15] - Quote I say we just add hisec sentries to all HI->low systems. This way no one has to complain about their camp being unable to kill a target as they will just be instapopped if they try. Thus the tears on both sides will stop and the game will be in peace and harmony. Then the ponies of the Solar Empire attack.
ShadowNeo29 TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly 6	Posted - 2013.07.28 18:36:00 - [16] - Quote Gank them in high sec and stop crying
Onomerous Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 258	Posted - 2013.07.29 13:09:00 - [17] - Quote TLDR: I want easy kills!!!
Nyancat Audeles Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 394	Posted - 2013.07.29 13:41:00 - [18] - Quote I don't think you understand the amount of skill needed to fly one of these 7-8 billion ISK behemoths. The whole purpose of a jump freighter IS to get stuff to low or null security space with safety. It is the whole reason small gangs in nullsec can thrive and build up stockpiles. You're just looking for easy kills.
Ellendras Silver No Self Esteem ShAdOw PoLiTiCs 70	Posted - 2013.07.29 14:08:00 - [19] - Quote Aquila Sagitta wrote: ..uhh so whats your idea/feature? he wants us to come up with it i am guessing, but he has a point
Hopelesshobo Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade 71	Posted - 2013.07.29 14:09:00 - [20] - Quote I fail to see how this is an issue, as previously stated they are expensive and deserve the RELATIVE safety of being able to use cynos. Besides, have you never seen JF get suicide ganked? Highsec isn't 100% safe like you would make it seem. Emma Yobibit wrote: Heather Tsukaya wrote: Aquila Sagitta wrote: ..uhh so whats your idea/feature? Maybe disallow cynos super close to stations. So you want jump freighters to jump in 5km from a station, that means it would take about an average of more then 50 seconds for them to get about in docking range Rending cynos usless because freighters take about 40-50 seconds to warp, cynos exist to remove the gate camping problem. And even if this would be implemented, people would just light the cyno in a safe, and have their cyno alt equipped with webs to insta warp the JF before someone lands on grid. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Balthazar Lestrane Viziam Amarr Empire 52	Posted - 2013.07.29 14:31:00 - [21] - Quote /me hands tissues to Heather to pad her bra-- ahem.. killboard with.
RoAnnon Strategic Acquisitions Group Tactical Research Lab 145	Posted - 2013.07.29 15:16:00 - [22] - Quote I like the way almost every idea on this forum boils down to "I can't figure out how to kill it so it must be OP and needs to be nerfed!" You just need to figure out the vulnerabilities of the situation and play to those. The fact that JFs get killed all the time pretty much shows they can be killed, so the initial complaint is moot. So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 2349	Posted - 2013.07.29 15:31:00 - [23] - Quote Emma Yobibit wrote: Heather Tsukaya wrote: Aquila Sagitta wrote: ..uhh so whats your idea/feature? Maybe disallow cynos super close to stations. So you want jump freighters to jump in 5km from a station, that means it would take about an average of more then 50 seconds for them to get about in docking range Rending cynos usless because freighters take about 40-50 seconds to warp, cynos exist to remove the gate camping problem. A few things to consider: 1.) With a properly positioned cyno on a station, a JF is 100% immune to death upon warp in. -- That said, people often suck at placing cyno's on a station. It's easy to bounce off a station, and an unlucky bounce will result in a JF 500+m from station before it can "dock". A cyno spot that lands 95% of JF's perfectly within dock range without bouncing, has a 5% chance of cynoing the JF beyond dock range. 2.) POS force fields have a mechanic that prevents ships cyno'ing directly into the POS FF. I'm honestly not 100% familiar with the mechanic, but from my "limited" understanding if you attempt to cyno into a FF you end up many km's beyond the FF. If a similar mechanic were implented at stations, it would not be the end of the world. People would simply cyno in to a safe spot and warp to the station. Web to warp will get a JF into warp faster than a dictor could warp to the cyno. The "you land 5 km's from the station when jumping into a cyno at zero from station" has a much larger impact on hotdrops. If someone is using a carrier to rep their buddy on station, and you want to drop dreads, or anything for that matter, on top of it to kill it, you suddenly land much farther from the target. 5 km's from station could easily mean 20-40 km's from your target, very much changing the dynamic of hotdropping stuff on a station. This isn't a terrible thing either, it is simply something people would have to adapt to. 3.) Your JF pilots will hate you for this implementation... They don't want to risk a 6-10b isk worth of stuff so you can make a shiny killmail out of them, and they already have to worry about imperfect cyno's as it is.
Asuka Solo Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises 2423	Posted - 2013.07.29 15:39:00 - [24] - Quote Simple fix. Delete cynos. Allow capitals to jump themselves. They wont be able to jump directly on a station... but then again, you wont know they jumped into local begin with either. So your problem has very little to do with JF's being safe.... it has more to do with your inability to make low-sec less safe. So can I haz your stuff now? Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Ellendras Silver No Self Esteem ShAdOw PoLiTiCs 71	Posted - 2013.07.29 15:50:00 - [25] - Quote RoAnnon wrote: I like the way almost every idea on this forum boils down to "I can't figure out how to kill it so it must be OP and needs to be nerfed!" You just need to figure out the vulnerabilities of the situation and play to those. The fact that JFs get killed all the time pretty much shows they can be killed, so the initial complaint is moot. if pilot doesn't make a mistake (which isn't that hard) you will never ever loose a JF. that is a fact every JF that is lost is lost because of stupid mistakes like jump to a beacon in the hope it isn't camped, oops camped help oh NM i am dead.
Istyn Freight Club 226	Posted - 2013.07.29 16:28:00 - [26] - Quote Ellendras Silver wrote: RoAnnon wrote: I like the way almost every idea on this forum boils down to "I can't figure out how to kill it so it must be OP and needs to be nerfed!" You just need to figure out the vulnerabilities of the situation and play to those. The fact that JFs get killed all the time pretty much shows they can be killed, so the initial complaint is moot. if pilot doesn't make a mistake (which isn't that hard) you will never ever loose a JF. . This is true for pretty much every ship.
Sigras Conglomo 469	Posted - 2013.07.29 20:47:00 - [27] - Quote Tell me, how exactly would you catch this ship . . . anywhere [Loki, GingerbreadMan] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 100MN Afterburner II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Kinetic Deflection Field II Explosive Deflection Field II Covert Ops Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Loki Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier Loki Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration Loki Engineering - Power Core Multiplier Loki Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Loki Defensive - Amplification Node Its not like PvPers have no unkillable ships.
Ellendras Silver No Self Esteem ShAdOw PoLiTiCs 71	Posted - 2013.07.29 21:57:00 - [28] - Quote Istyn wrote: Ellendras Silver wrote: RoAnnon wrote: I like the way almost every idea on this forum boils down to "I can't figure out how to kill it so it must be OP and needs to be nerfed!" You just need to figure out the vulnerabilities of the situation and play to those. The fact that JFs get killed all the time pretty much shows they can be killed, so the initial complaint is moot. if pilot doesn't make a mistake (which isn't that hard) you will never ever loose a JF. . This is true for pretty much every ship. sure thing plz take your meds
Ellendras Silver No Self Esteem ShAdOw PoLiTiCs 71	Posted - 2013.07.29 21:59:00 - [29] - Quote Sigras wrote: Tell me, how exactly would you catch this ship . . . anywhere [Loki, GingerbreadMan] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 100MN Afterburner II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Kinetic Deflection Field II Explosive Deflection Field II Covert Ops Cloaking Device II [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] Loki Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier Loki Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration Loki Engineering - Power Core Multiplier Loki Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Loki Defensive - Amplification Node Its not like PvPers have no unkillable ships. perfect example i really hoped someone would reply with something like this... you know CCP finds this OP they don't want a T3 be able to be nullified and covert ops
Kahega Amielden Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 818	Posted - 2013.07.29 22:18:00 - [30] - Quote Of course you're virtually unkillable if you make no mistakes. That's true no matter what you do. If you're running missions or exploration complexes and drop cans at the acceleration gate warpin and watch dscan/local vigorously, there is no way that anyone is ever going to successfully gank you. Traveling through lowsec is 100% safe if you fly in a covert ops or use a scout (scout can be in something like a noobship) Mining in lowsec even is 100% safe if you stay prealigned and ready to warp as soon as anything shows up on overview. The point is that everyone is human and eventually makes mistakes, and then you can kill them.

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