I think this could be cool to have in the EVE fleet window. To see who's doing the best overall/most efficient damage and who's the quickest logi. Killmails just isnt the same. More info on damage meters: http://www.wowwiki.com/Damage_meter

Over a year in the game and OP still doesn't understand how EvE works.

You should stop saying killmails are good enough because it only shows how little you understand of the significance a damage meter can have in comparison. The people who usualy kept whining ingame in WoW when people posted damage logs in raid chat were usualy the same people who didnt know how to play properly and did not like it because it revealed their incompetence. And im not talking about panda WoW here i mean classic/TBC.

Can you please tell me the problem of having a damage meter in EVE?

How would you determine whether or not the player was bad or lazy based on damage? Maybe they get crappy hits due to tracking, or the target is well fit with high resists. Maybe they get ECMed and get hardly any locks. What about tackle pilots, or pilots fit for neuting warfare. They won't do much damge period since that is not part of their objective. Then you have logi pilots and jammer pilots who really do no damage because it is not part of their task. Add in scout pilots whose whole purpose is intel gathering ahead of a fleet then by adding it in and saying if you aren't doing such and such damage then you are crap.

Actually your probem is mentioning WOW in a serious post.

Honestly, you want to avoid that. It's a miracle the reception has been this....nice.

If one player is doing considerable more damage than another with the same ship over and over and fit and also have the same skills then it means the other is slacking. That is what i mean. And if you dont think thats enough reason i think PvE players like incursion runners would very much apriciate a damage meter at least.

Then it would be a matter of piloting. Either because of range or other variables. If both ships are piloting one behind the other then damages are going to be similiar. So someone using the same ship, fit and all the same skills hitting the same target will realistically only ever vary due to piloting.

That's exactly Tirel's point though. With the help of a damage meter in these cases, you could identify the bad pilot.

Yes, anyway. I should have added this on the top but the incursion community would apriciate a damage meter. And i think it would be useful for PvP aswell, though not so much, yes.

By incursion community you mean snot bag jokes from wow that sit around in shiny ships thinking they're in a wow raid and the greatest things since sliced bread.

If one player is doing considerable more damage than another with the same ship over and over and fit and also have the same skills then it means the other is slacking.

I said over and over, that means over time, days, weeks maybe. This guy you speak of must have some really bad luck, getting jammed and TD'd every single fight he's in.

That's exactly Tirel's point though. With the help of a damage meter in these cases, you could identify the bad pilot.

Why wouldn't the bad pilot also be identifiable though killmails ?

You'll find them in the victim section

I think this could be cool to have in the EVE fleet window. To see who's doing the best overall/most efficient damage and who's the quickest logi. Killmails just isnt the same. More info on damage meters: http://www.wowwiki.com/Damage_meter

The frigate with 0% and a scram was probably the most important.

Damage and damage application is quite complicated in EVE. A damage meter would show details a killmail never could. In addition a killmail is something that must be looked up and therefore often gets ignored or overlooked, while a damage meter is part of the UI.

Incursion runners do not even have killmails, and pick-up-fleets constantly have problems with leechers and slackers. Those people are often almost impossible to identify and replace. I think a damage meter would be greatly apriciated by the incursion communities.

I said over and over, that means over time, days, weeks maybe. This guy you speak of must have some really bad luck, getting jammed and TD'd every single fight he's in.

And it won't give the L33t incursion runners another reason to bash newer players and those who can't afford sparkly ships worth billions, right?

Waste of dev time, bad for newer players and pointless for anyone other than incursion runners and even then only a very few of them.

What about a pilot who flys different ships. You could be reshipping from high DPS to logi, to tackle over a period of a roam, a few days , weeks ect. Your DPS maybe be way lower than some one who flew a dps ship all the time. At least you can see what ship someone was flying on a KM and determine why there DPS was low.

I don't play WOW but my understanding is that certain Char types perform different rolls so you can't just become something else without changing chars which would then add to a separate meter.

So in the end of the day if the meter tracked over a long period then it would not work unless it had some sort of convoluted system to track what ship you where in (very complex to display that and not very useful) and if the period was to short then it would not allow for situational differences (ECM ect) .

Or he has a name that starts with A...

And it won't give the L33t incursion runners another reason to bash newer players and those who can't afford sparkly ships worth billions, right?

Waste of dev time, bad for newer players and pointless for anyone other than incursion runners and even then only a very few of them.

There is a reason WOW is the only game you can point at for this example. Because nearly all the other serious MMO's refuse to implement Damage Meters WOW style because they hurt the community. They create snobbery, and encourage abuse & belittling of people simply because of a number. They create an environment where a player who isn't 100% max skills gets kicked from fleets/corps and told to go sit in the newbie corp till they are V everything.
WOW is a game where you raid with people exactly your level, and grind for the 100% best gear and never loose it once you have it.
EVE is a game where you Fleet with people of wildly different skill point levels, and use the most cost effective gear since you have to replace it often, often in a variety of fits intended to do different things at different times.
Damage meters do not belong in the second kind of game, ever.

I agree it won't be great for the arrogant, shiny only incursion runners. It would however be useful for FC's to see who's simply leeching from incursion groups (and believe me, it happens).

Outside of that, EVE won't really get much value from a damage meter... But it could do with some indicator (not a damage meter), to inform FC's whether the person meant to be dealing DPS is actually suitable for the fleet they're in, and whether they're not just slacking, but leeching.


I'd suggest a system whereby the average DPS is calculated for the fleet/wing/squad/whatever, and anyone not flying a logistics ship (i.e., anyone who isn't doing a significant amount of repairs), has their personal DPS compared to the average. The FC can then set percentage (lets say 50% for this example) of that average DPS. If a pilot drops below that, an un-intrusive message can be displayed to the FC, and the FC only.


This allows FC's to decide whether the pilot is leeching. For example, if they're in a deadspace fit Machariel or Vindicator, and they're doing less than half the average DPS in a Vanguard site, then it's pretty fair to say that they're probably leeching. If they're a triple webbing Loki, then chances are they're just concentrating on that. A good FC would be able to glance the report quickly and tell if anyone's leeching or not.


Again, incursions are really the only thing I can think of as anything like this being useful. You could argue a case for running anomalies in null with your corp or whatever, but that's normally a lot more relaxed, and as it's your corp, then it's not classed as "leeching".


Finally, on the flip-side, a personal DPS meter, or some kind of accessible battle report could be extremely handy... Want to find out, in real-life scenarios how much the changes to cruise missiles have made to hitting frigates? Don't really have/want a head for numbers? Then go out in the field, try it out, have a look at a brief battle report.

You could then share them if you wanted to or whatever...


TL;DR: I can see Incursion FC's having a use for this, as well as maybe other FC's in general. I don't see the general populous as needing it, and don't really think it should be implemented for everyone. As a personal tool, just for your eyes, about your performance in a fight/mission, I think it could also be good.


Oh, and as for the people talking about Killmails... They're not particularly detailed, especially in terms of damage breakdown. Also, I've only ever received a killmail when getting popped in PvE, which doesn't help me tune my performance for certain fits/missions really.

No. This is now WOW. No dps meters, no damage tracking. No people screaming "your dps isn't bla bla bla"

It is a metric the public does not need.

If you have leechers in an incursion fleet it should be simple to tell anyways. If you see a Vindi or Machariel not shooting which is easy to see. Then punish them. Warp out and leave them to get blapped by the Sansha.

But WoW is dying and some of its players are coming here aparrently. We need new ways to identify their incompetence so we can send them back to their unholy spawning pits.

But WoW is dying and some of its players are coming here aparrently. We need new ways to identify their incompetence so we can send them back to their unholy spawning pits.

Then the players can come here and deal with things the way they are. I don't imagine blizzard would change wow to suit eve players that left if eve was dying. I don't think CCP should change the game to suit wow players that are coming here. If wow is really dying then that is blizzard's problem not CCP's. Changing any game midstream really or after it's gotten to a certain point in it's age just means the people that stuck by for years will leave. That's what happened to star wars galaxies after SOE did all the changes. The game died because SOE decided to change the game play to suit the newcomers who thought it was too hard.

But WoW is dying and some of its players are coming here aparrently. We need new ways to identify their incompetence so we can send them back to their unholy spawning pits.

Healmeters (or at least seeing heals in killmails) would be something more useful, though marginally.

But WoW is dying and some of its players are coming here aparrently. We need new ways to identify their incompetence so we can send them back to their unholy spawning pits.

(Un)Fortunately for EVE players there are too many variables involved to really make damage meters a tool capable of providing meaningful information for entire groups of players. As such the implementation of a "fleet damage meter" would be a colossally stupid idea that would prove invidious at the least. In order to place its data into some sort of accurate context it would have to collect, and provide, a potentially significant amount of data which would in turn increase the load on the servers due to higher network traffic, increase the bandwidth necessary to play EVE while it is running which in turn would subsequently make players more prone to lag issues, and chug through players' available data limits at a higher rate. While some of those concerns might be minor to some people they're still there, and the rest aren't so very minor either.


However, having said that I would also say that personal damage meters that are calculated purely client side and display no more data than your client receives from the server with no additional data being sent and none of the subsequent increase in server load which could be useful in helping intelligent players gauge their performance might actually have a place in EVE Online.

Combat often has a lot of scroll, and trawling through log files after combat is cumbersome at best. Parsing programs like RJParser for Rift ought to be able to handle the job to a degree, but they can also cause unintended side effects such as the aforementioned parser causing a significant frame rate penalty any time the data windows had any sort of transparency to them. Having an in-game tool to let us view that data in a more meaningful fashion without resorting to a third-party program wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing in that sort of scenario.

tl;dr: Personal damage meters are potentially useful and are worth considering. Fleet damage meters would be unholy abominations which would warrant their creator(s), and instigator(s), being forever immortalized by getting podded in every solar system in EVE, back to back to back to back, while on a live video stream so that everyone can watch it and think, "Thank the gods I'm not (that/those) sorry bastard(s)!"

I do not think any MMO's refuse damage meters but damage meters and parsers are usualy made by players in the form of a mod and not all games support mods. Like i said i used WoW as a reference to damage meters because most people can relate to WoW.

But WoW is dying and some of its players are coming here aparrently. We need new ways to identify their incompetence so we can send them back to their unholy spawning pits.

Its these meters that imo ruin games. All the lemmings tweak to max them out. Eve doesn't work like this. More goee to making magic happen then big numbers on a screen A recent titan kill came about from a small ship jsut flying about. Old boy was in a cloaky, scanned a titan, it loged, scanned another in pos, hacked a pos password, called the ping and was the warp to for a very time sensitive tackle. Scratch one titan after pos bump.

If he ever shot the titan he'd be so low on the damage list it would not be funny. since cloaked he would not register for e-war hitting. However this would not have happened at all if he was not there.

That is eve...right place right time right actions can be greater than having 8000000000 damage point on some stupid meter.

Most MMOs refuse mods for good reasons:
- They could easily look similar to hack/bot programs.
- They can make content too easy, for example by highlighting whoever needs the healers attention the most, or showing people exactly where to stand in a boss fight. Forcing game designers to balance the game around the mod being present, which forces everyone to get the mod.
- Malware risk.
- They cause unpleasant changes to the community. Like the snobbery a damage meter causes.

Lossmails show bad fits.
Lossmails with them in a fight they should have won means they need to be questioned.
If they have no lossmails, but they do have killmails, then whatever they are doing might be something worth copying.
Looking at their damage numbers on killmails shows how well they are following orders.
Full API key lets you see if they are training the right skills.

What piece of useful information would a damage meter show ?

A damage meter might even hurt them learning Eve, because it emphasizes damage over other useful things like EWAR.

That does not mean it would be useless in EVE.

I am not an expert on data traffic but i would guess the numbers that a damage meter would display are allready there - Displayed as targets shield/armor/structure, and would cause little to no lag.

A parser would be a welcome alternative but something tells me this would have been made allready if it was possible.

Most MMOs refuse mods for good reasons:
- They could easily look similar to hack/bot programs.
- They can make content too easy, for example by highlighting whoever needs the healers attention the most, or showing people exactly where to stand in a boss fight. Forcing game designers to balance the game around the mod being present, which forces everyone to get the mod.
- Malware risk.
- They cause unpleasant changes to the community. Like the snobbery a damage meter causes.

Who's watching TV while playing

and fun for the players who enjoy numbers other than ISK.

In every MMO game DPS/Damage is always the majority because offense is simply the best defense. EWAR would be less of a focus yes of course it would, but it should stil show number of targets affected by each ewar pilot with what modules, etc. As i said earlier.

The most amusing thing about reading this thread is knowing, with certainty, that this won't be added to the game.

For all your arguing for a damage meter in EVE, OP, you neither have the backing of the community or of CCP and so yeah, never gunna happen.

EPALU

Nothing is impossible, but some things are unlikely in the extreme. However with EVE being a multi-boxing love-fest and lots of EVE players having multiple monitors it wouldn't surprise me if eventually someone creates a program to parse the logs to provide some data from them in a semi-real-time format.