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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.17 13:07:00 -
[1]
Edited by: DREAMWORKS on 17/08/2003 13:09:57
Some idiots are using this zgeek man method, aka farming...
Result:
150 ms ping = ok
No blaster worm = ok
Just reinstalled pc = ok
Another pc tried = ok
server, workstation and eve client reboot = ok.
Still a 4 second lag while fighting 50k pirates...
move to another solarsystem - lag gone
Please do me and others a favor, and im only going to put it here once:
If you are farming, please make sure you clean up the solarsystem and take another solar system once or twice. Because if you farm you cause enormous lag and trouble to others, even if you dont mean too. It seems solar systems can be affected by it, and i no longer are willingly to move around trying to aviod these idiots.
If i cant fight you, ill report you... Got it?
Thnx for your cooperation.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Jasfulezruw
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Posted - 2003.08.17 13:15:00 -
[2]
hi!
what is farming?
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Vacuole
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Posted - 2003.08.17 13:19:00 -
[3]
But....
Currently its not illegal to litter in Eve.
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.17 13:26:00 -
[4]
 Quote:
But....
Currently its not illegal to litter in Eve.
It is too exploit spawns. Dont act stupid on me plz.
Topic: Farm Exploit
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Cruise
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Posted - 2003.08.17 13:27:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Cruise on 17/08/2003 13:29:11
Farming is a sort of 'technique' wherein a player takes on a spawn of npc pirates and, through a series of maneuvers to flank and offset one of them (meaning it sits back and doesn't attack), the number of pirates that has been wasted respawns much, much quicker. The player keeps on taking these out in wave after wave and fills the area with canisters.
Most pick up the canisters after taking out the last pirate (they got bored, ran out of ammo, the wife called for 'honey dew' stuff, etc.), some leave the area riddled with canisters, which I guess they're saying creates lag.
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Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam.
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.08.17 13:28:00 -
[6]
Tell ya what, give me their locations, and I'll go have a quiet word with them..
Of course, this now only applies to non-empire space.
empire-farmers are now sadly protected by the concord gank-squads. So they can do as they please, you can ask them to clear up, but there's now no longer any means of enforcing such a thing. And if you ask them nicely enough, maybe they'll merely insult you.
But you still can't smack them upside the head*.
*unless you don't want your ship anymore.
.
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.08.17 13:32:00 -
[7]
So what do you think of as an exploit?
Letting new guys spawn before killing the last one, or doing this "maneuver" so that he doesn't fire at you?
All of them keeps firing at me when I chainkill them so I guess I'm clean. 
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.08.17 13:33:00 -
[8]
Surely people clean up their cans afterwards?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.08.17 13:39:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Surely people clean up their cans afterwards?
Of course, I loot 140 containers in my battleship when the pirates are spawning on top of me.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.08.17 13:51:00 -
[10]
Good point
You don't know how to stop the spawn?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.08.17 14:06:00 -
[11]
Quote:
So what do you think of as an exploit?
Letting new guys spawn before killing the last one, or doing this "maneuver" so that he doesn't fire at you?
All of them keeps firing at me when I chainkill them so I guess I'm clean.
Deliberate de-aggroing of an NPC is an exploit - clear and simple.
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.08.17 14:10:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Good point
You don't know how to stop the spawn?
Of course I do, though I only do it when I've got an indy to pick it up. 
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Rathas
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Posted - 2003.08.17 14:10:00 -
[13]
chainkilling is not an exploit if the mobs are still attacking you - essentially what is happening (as intended) is the remaining mob(s) call in reenforcements to try to kill you off deliberatly not killing the mob isnt an exploit (however if you use methods to de-agro the mob then it would be considered an exploit as per what has been said in the past by CCP
BSC, Chief Tactical Officer
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"
- Lt Gen Lewis B. Puller |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.17 14:30:00 -
[14]
Quote:
chainkilling is not an exploit if the mobs are still attacking you - essentially what is happening (as intended) is the remaining mob(s) call in reenforcements to try to kill you off deliberatly not killing the mob isnt an exploit (however if you use methods to de-agro the mob then it would be considered an exploit as per what has been said in the past by CCP
Offcourse i have send a petition to verify if this is an exploit, and the official word is that CCP see this as an exploit because you activate a script/code that isnt normal and not intended as it should be. No mather if you de-agressor it or not, you cause a spawn that isnt normal.
Its very hard for CCP to find these farmers and to find the cause in it, since everyone who knows this technique isnt likely to send a logserver report to CCP.
However if CCP received data and chatlog of a farmer claiming he farms, this is likely bannable.
Currently the score is:
Dreamworks 1-0 farmers.
1 farmer is requested to cease there actions and is attacked to enforce this, the farmer now doesnt use this tactic anymore.
I have to add to you guys that i dont have any problem with farmers, you can farm all you like for what i care. But if you farm you cause lag in the system people are in, therefor you cause grief too others and make their hobby a pain... (i felt like that when having 10-20 seconds lag and finding out my shield dropped from 100% to 0% and 98% armor. with 2 hardeners on!.)
So if you do: Dont do it near, or in the system i am in...
drunkenmaster, thanks for your offer... This is indeed in non-empire space.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Rathas
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Posted - 2003.08.17 14:41:00 -
[15]
Humm to be honest I'm sure I remember this being mentioned before in beta and the aditional ships were reenforcements (ie this method of farming would not be abnormal spawning behavior hence not an exploit)
Would be very odd if it wasnt notmal and they couldnt reproduce it as it seems easy to get going.
I dont actully get that much time to fight NPC ships but when I get a little time do it I will pop over to the test server and see if I can get a chain going with my test log on then submit it to check for abnormal behavior (or feel free if anyone else wants to do it ;)
BSC, Chief Tactical Officer
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"
- Lt Gen Lewis B. Puller |
Xtreme Wrath
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Posted - 2003.08.17 14:54:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Xtreme Wrath on 17/08/2003 14:55:18
Jesus Christ... people will whine about anything...
<Self edit of long ass flame done here>
Go play Sims online, this is not an exploit...
Sheesh people stop *****ing and play the damn game! 
What we do in Life, echoes in eternity
Strength and honor |
DJvGalen
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Posted - 2003.08.17 15:19:00 -
[17]
So, all people not strong enough to kill the pirates that attack them while mining on their own using 3-4 hammerheads to protect themselves are now to be considered cheating exploiters ?
That's going to leave very few people playing this game 
------------------------------------------------
CCP please fix your patch so I can play with my corpmates again soon. |
Klydor
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Posted - 2003.08.17 15:24:00 -
[18]
Ok so I have to cease killing npc pirates then?? Because when I hit a belt and start killing terrorists or above it takes me so long to kill them that the next lot have spawned. This keeps going and going. If I could kill them all in one go I would, but I can't.
I'm in no danger myself and thats why I stay there and keep killing them slowly.
If CCP see that as an exploit then they should fix their AI scripts and stop reinforcments spawning.
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plur
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Posted - 2003.08.17 15:24:00 -
[19]
pirate hunting is a valid way to make money, it is part of the game. if the servers cant take it it is not anyones fault, if your machine cant handle a few extra polygons, aint my problem, buy a proper graphics card.
no more so than if people mining caused the same thing... ever seen a 50+ stong mining team at work dreamworks... how many drones you think that is and how many cargo cans involved? add to thet the loot cans from pirates they have to kill.. that would increase load more than someone pirate farming.
find something else to whine about.
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Lonewulf
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Posted - 2003.08.17 15:29:00 -
[20]
What a lame thing to be crying about.. if killing NPC's causes lag, thats not the players fault, thats CCP's fault. I farm rats all the time in systems with 15+ belts full of people all doing the same thing.. and hundreds of cans per BS and dont have any more lag than usual (which is considerable most times it seems like in certain systems even with no one in them)
Aren't you the same guy thats trying to muscle in on manufacturers by attempting to make them fix prices? Now you're attempting to make CCP decrease spawn rate to nerf farmers? Or.. maybe its so you can roll into a belt and kill 4 cruisers then mine bist for an hour without interruption?
Either way.. find something else to ***** about.
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plur
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Posted - 2003.08.17 15:34:00 -
[21]
Maybe we should farm Dreamcatchers inc. ships instead? 
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Stavros
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Posted - 2003.08.17 15:35:00 -
[22]
wow u guys REALLY will whine about anything wont u?
I mean REALLY WHY the hell do most of you even play this game if you find so much wrong with it?
Eve The Second Genesis Of Teh WHiners!
PWN!
Stav
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Vanessa Miranda
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Posted - 2003.08.17 15:43:00 -
[23]
I agree with stav even though he just killed me (out exploring ).
What is wrong with chainkilling?
So you're the guy who goes to one belt, kills 3 pirates, next belt, kill 4, next belt until the system is empty? 
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.17 15:51:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 17/08/2003 15:53:44
Am I farming pirates? Yes, all the time, it literary paid for my 2 BS.
Is it an exploit? Perhaps, perhaps not. If CCP reardsit as one it's the same type of exploit than the surcial strike bug some time ago.
They cannot prohibit everyone to use it - and they cannot ban everyone who is using it since they would need to ban at least 20-30% of the players.
That's quite the difference to this -10.0 sec bug - that was used only by a few players and not everyone could use it, it was limited.
What CCP need to fix here if they want to stop it is to remove this faster respawn when a ship is left - that should be easy enough.
Oh, and have fun trying to stop farmers. Try it in a system with more than 2 farmers and they will stop their exploiting for sure - at least long enough to track down and destroy a certain person's ship
free speech not allowed here |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.08.17 15:53:00 -
[25]
I still don't see how this is an exploit.
If you're in a cruiser there's simply spawns you cannot kill before they start spawning again. Are they (the "farmers") supposed to count the initial number of pirates and leave when they are dead?
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agrizla
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Posted - 2003.08.17 16:00:00 -
[26]
Quote:
Aren't you the same guy thats trying to muscle in on manufacturers by attempting to make them fix prices?
He is and I've heard yet more rumours about trade federation "enforcement" action around Amarr and Bourynes last night. This enforcement seems to take the form of "stealing" ore from corps and issuing them with a warning to join the trade federation and/or raise their prices. As yet I've yet to find anyone who has first-hand experience of this - so far it's just rumours (people who say they were in-system at the time). Anyone who knows anything more about this then I'd like to hear about it.
Oh and DREAMWORKS name keeps cropping up as one of the enforcers - although because of this I'm inclined to not believe any of these rumours as I don't think he'd have the balls to do this.
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BSOD
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Posted - 2003.08.17 16:03:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Edited by: Xtreme Wrath on 17/08/2003 14:55:18
Jesus Christ... people will whine about anything...
Amen.
Dumbest... Thread... EVER
----------------
Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.17 16:27:00 -
[28]
Call it whining, but this is taking advance of a code who isnt ment to be used in the game like this.
Sure people who cant kill a pirate shouldnt be banned, but people clearly doing it and knowing they do it and even confess doing it... I therefor always ask if they farm, and if so i ask them to leave, they dont? I attack, they surfive? Ill report.
My system is the latest there is and i tried several systems, sure its CCP's problem.. But i dont care, by the time they fixed it i can put out my socks under the christmastree... Therefor ill kill. :) Clear? Thnx for your cooperation.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Stavros
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Posted - 2003.08.17 16:29:00 -
[29]
dude shut up, you suck, your corp sucks and nobody cares what you think.
have a nice day
stav
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.17 16:31:00 -
[30]
Quote:
dude shut up, you suck, your corp sucks and nobody cares what you think.
have a nice day
stav
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Darth Maul
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Posted - 2003.08.17 16:34:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Darth Maul on 17/08/2003 16:34:20
Quote:
If i cant fight you, ill report you... Got it?
Thnx for your cooperation.
Ohh.. PUHlease!
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Nirvy
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Posted - 2003.08.17 16:37:00 -
[32]
Quote:
Call it whining, but this is taking advance of a code who isnt ment to be used in the game like this.
Sure people who cant kill a pirate shouldnt be banned, but people clearly doing it and knowing they do it and even confess doing it... I therefor always ask if they farm, and if so i ask them to leave, they dont? I attack, they surfive? Ill report.
My system is the latest there is and i tried several systems, sure its CCP's problem.. But i dont care, by the time they fixed it i can put out my socks under the christmastree... Therefor ill kill. :) Clear? Thnx for your cooperation.
This happens to me all the time, i warp in, get a 5 spawn of 10-30k rats, and i cant kill them fast enough, by the time one is left, another 5 have spawned, are you telling me im exploiting because my rupture cant kill them quick enough? Sheesh i have to fly to a planet and wait 5 mins for the rats to vanish before going back to loot the cans.
I dont "de-hostilize" one of the rats (however you do that?) it just happens because i cant take out 5 20k rats in a few minutes
Mercenary | The Azath |
Viceroy
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Posted - 2003.08.17 16:45:00 -
[33]
OMFG SPLOIT SPLOIT! BAN THE SPLOITERS! SPLOIT H4X EDIT CHEAT TTI!
(Of course if you ban all the chain-spawners, you'll be left with 250 people on the server.)
-
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Darth Maul
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Posted - 2003.08.17 16:51:00 -
[34]
I don't know why these fools keep trying to make it seem like chain killing is some kind of 'sploit. WTF.. without fast spawning rats you'd have fleets of indys AFK mining bist with a single cruiser as cover pulling time across 10 belts in a system.
Damn lamers.. without insta spawns you might as well take all guns off the market and replace em with mining lasers.
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annoing
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Posted - 2003.08.17 16:57:00 -
[35]
I was hunting last night and was getting 5 x 40k pirates all the time in the one belt. Even as i moved in to kill the last one, within 10 secs another 5 would warp in and i had to start again. By the time i bugged out of the belt due to extreme boredom, i had earned 8mill in one belt i had 200 containers hanging there. I didnt 'Farm' the spawn, i was in chat to a mate telling him how i wish the spawn would stop. Like i said, i had tried to stop the spawn by killing them all, but they just kept coming and coming. Thats the scripts AI fault not mine.
PS: And in 200 containers i didnt find a single item worth keeping. Nothing, nada, zilch. Yet i went to another belt straight after, killed 3x30k pirates and found a very rare weapon, a tech 2 overdrive and a rare damage mod. Goes to show dont it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Inquisition
Long live the Inquisition
Long live the Emperor
Long live Amarr!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
Xelios
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Posted - 2003.08.17 17:11:00 -
[36]
Dreamworks I think mining into a normal container is an exploit, you are using them in ways they were not meant to be used. Cans were meant to hold junk, stuff you didn't want and ejected from your hold, not as a middleman in a mining operation. Therefor, the next time I see any members of your corp doing this I'll report you.
Why don't YOU go make a logfile of an npc farm? And then YOU send it to CCP? As of yet I've heard nothing from CCP saying it's an exploit or a cheat of any kind, I assume the pirates call in reinforcements and until I hear word from CCP I'll assume the code is working the way it should be. After all, THEY are the ones who programmed the game, who are you to say something is an exploit? You say you petitioned and they told you it's an exploit, maybe you could post that here so we can all see?
An exploit is in this instance defined as using a bug in the code to gain an unfair advantage over another player. Any player can farm npc's, therefor no-one has an advantage here. IMO, it's no different than mining into a can.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.17 18:02:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 17/08/2003 18:03:14
Yes, mining in a can is essentially the same thing. I doubt that cans were meant to hold seceral indys worth of ores 
We should take into account that chaining is more or less the *only* way for a freelancer to make real money. The only other activities which have a similar chashflow are robotics trading and bistot mining - both things which are in tight control.
Without chaining a highend fighter would earn perhaps 20-10% of a highend trader/miner in the same time (and with a bigger effective workload in the same time).
I would like to have a confirmation of chaining from the DEVs, too, not from one of the we-like-to-contradict-each-other GM's.
free speech not allowed here |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.17 18:10:00 -
[38]
Quote:
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 17/08/2003 18:03:14
Yes, mining in a can is essentially the same thing. I doubt that cans were meant to hold seceral indys worth of ores
We should take into account that chaining is more or less the *only* way for a freelancer to make real money. The only other activities which have a similar chashflow are robotics trading and bistot mining - both things which are in tight control.
Without chaining a highend fighter would earn perhaps 20-10% of a highend trader/miner in the same time (and with a bigger effective workload in the same time).
I would like to have a confirmation of chaining from the DEVs, too, not from one of the we-like-to-contradict-each-other GM's.
I do perfectly well without chaining. 10mil a day i can make easily, with just warping to another belt and shoot them and leave.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
John Zeppe
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Posted - 2003.08.17 18:32:00 -
[39]
You do realize that 5 containers * 10 belts is the same as 50 containers in 1 belt, right?
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.08.17 18:32:00 -
[40]
I only ever seem to create an insta-spawn when I really don't want to 
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
HendriX
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Posted - 2003.08.17 18:33:00 -
[41]
Viceroy, if you dont mind ill be using that statement as a sig, made me laff, heh
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2003.08.17 18:37:00 -
[42]
Also do you realize that objects in different locations within the same system do not effect latency in other locations?
-
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.08.17 18:41:00 -
[43]
Maybe we have here a serious case of latent farmosexualism.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.17 18:53:00 -
[44]
Quote:
You do realize that 5 containers * 10 belts is the same as 50 containers in 1 belt, right?
i understand that a system with 4 belts, and in 1 belt having 250+ containers in it doesnt make the system nice to be in.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2003.08.17 18:55:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Lao Tzu on 17/08/2003 18:55:39
Dreameh, you still based in Nererut
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John Zeppe
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Posted - 2003.08.17 19:00:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Quote:
You do realize that 5 containers * 10 belts is the same as 50 containers in 1 belt, right?
i understand that a system with 4 belts, and in 1 belt having 250+ containers in it doesnt make the system nice to be in.
Wait 1 hour and there's less than 150, wait another and the number is close to zero...
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.17 19:03:00 -
[47]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You do realize that 5 containers * 10 belts is the same as 50 containers in 1 belt, right?
i understand that a system with 4 belts, and in 1 belt having 250+ containers in it doesnt make the system nice to be in.
Wait 1 hour and there's less than 150, wait another and the number is close to zero...
I even shot all the containers 1 for 1, and the lag was still there... I gone out off the system, gone back in and problem still there. Till reset.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Stront3h
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Posted - 2003.08.17 19:19:00 -
[48]
Dreamworks, here's a tip...
You play your game and let us play ours.
Your initial post has got to be one of the most stupid things I've seen posted on here.
Muppet.
---------------------------------------------
If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England. |
Digital Sin
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Posted - 2003.08.17 19:26:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Digital Sin on 17/08/2003 19:29:05
wow....
just...wow.
*sides with stavros*
you guys are so lame. i consider this a form of income (and a damn good one at that, more efficient than mining, you get money, and you get rare loot) and some people cant STOP the spawn fast enough. what, do you want 4 pirates to spawn in the entire solar system, attack one miner, then have a frigate come up and nuke them so that the person can mine bistot completely AFK?
cheapass whiners.
by the way, why do you leave the canisters there?
do you have any idea how much stuff is in there? i dont even have to MINE because of all the minerals i get from farming. yesterday i pulled in 1.8 million trit, 1m pyerite, 15,000 isogen, a few thousand noxcium, 1000 zydrine and 600 megacyte. not to mention an extruded heatsink, two skadi heatsinks, a heavy anode particle stream, two partial hull conversion expanders, and about 8 million isk.
"To be content,to be comfortable, is to be complacent. No one learns anything from pleasure..pain on the other hand is a most efficient instructor" |
Freddy Krueger
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Posted - 2003.08.17 19:30:00 -
[50]
You sure are one big crying carebear dude. Take your foot out of your mouth, so there is room for my fist.
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Rual Storge
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Posted - 2003.08.17 19:33:00 -
[51]
Dreamworks, no offence man, but this thread is the biggest wad of BS I've heard of so far. I've gone to systems with like 10 people about Farming and lag was nothing akward. If you wanna deal with lag make CCP forcefully move newbs outta 1.0 space, or make it so only 10 people can occupy the same solar system, both of which are the bumbest things I could come up with off the top of my head. If you're laggin up you need to check 4 things.
1.ISP, odds are if you lag it's sucks in ways I can't describe without my post being filtered
2. Graphics card. If it's a Geforce 2 or worse why bother playing EVE at all? warping into an asteroid belt can lag you out with your 12 FPS
3. CPU a 400 MXZ simply won't due, get a real processor
4. RAM I say 256+ MINIUM. you got 128mb or 54mb it's way past upgrade time.
If you lag it and only you are complaining, If so here's a quick guide to improve your gaming, It's called cancel and play something less intence computer wise.
Rual Storge, Battlestars, CEO |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.17 19:36:00 -
[52]
Quote:
Dreamworks, here's a tip...
You play your game and let us play ours.
Your initial post has got to be one of the most stupid things I've seen posted on here.
Muppet.
Here's a little tip for you, you keep your mouth shut and read the first post once again. Till then bye bye.
Freggle
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.17 19:37:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 17/08/2003 19:43:45
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 17/08/2003 19:40:14
Quote:
I do perfectly well without chaining. 10mil a day i can make easily, with just warping to another belt and shoot them and leave.
In how many hours? 5? 10? If you chain or mine bistot you make as much in 90 minutes.
Another thing - lag. You should take into account that Eve sometimes get's a memory hole. Yesterday I lagged horrbile, restarted eve - no lag. In addition to that a niche mining party creats considerably more lag that chaining.
A "chaining produces lag 0-> chaining bad /exploit, etc" argumetn is just dumb, you could ban 50% of all eve activities then.
free speech not allowed here |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.08.17 19:45:00 -
[54]
Oh. My. God.
Dreamworks is too stupid to live :D
I think he is the ultra-care-bear. He doesn't even want other people to hunt NPC's lest it lag up his system.
(Which, by the way, has got to be a super super crappy system, since I fight in a system where there are liek 4 other people actively chain killing pirates and do not experience trouble).
When I chain kill pirates, I don't deaggro one - I just kill one, then I kill the next, then I kill the next, then I kill the next - oops, two of them respawned! And so on. I don't have to do anything special at all to get this to happen. Indeed, it is exceedingly difficult to avoid this happening with certain spanws - you just can't kill them all fast enough to avoid a respawn, and then you have a chain spawn whether your like it or not.
To suggest this is an exploit is laughable.
|
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 19:49:00 -
[55]
I fail to see how having even 1000 cans in a belt would lag an entire system. The only way your client loads any information at all about these cans is if you're in the same belt or area as the cans. I hunt in a system where there are always at least 4 people chain killing in the belts, probably over 400 cans at any time, and not once have I experienced any lag higher than I normally do.
In short, your computer sucks, get a new one.
|
DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 19:52:00 -
[56]
Quote:
Dreamworks, no offence man, but this thread is the biggest wad of BS I've heard of so far. I've gone to systems with like 10 people about Farming and lag was nothing akward. If you wanna deal with lag make CCP forcefully move newbs outta 1.0 space, or make it so only 10 people can occupy the same solar system, both of which are the bumbest things I could come up with off the top of my head. If you're laggin up you need to check 4 things.
1.ISP, odds are if you lag it's sucks in ways I can't describe without my post being filtered
Checked, 150ms ping isnt bad, i played with no lag at 300m/s. The upload was minimal, there was room left for playing eve twice.
2. Graphics card. If it's a Geforce 2 or worse why bother playing EVE at all? warping into an asteroid belt can lag you out with your 12 FPS
Geforce 4 TI4600 isnt good enough anymore?
3. CPU a 400 MXZ simply won't due, get a real processor
2.4 ghz you mean, not 400.. i brought mine to the salvation army 5 years ago.
4. RAM I say 256+ MINIUM. you got 128mb or 54mb it's way past upgrade time.
1x 128 and 512 isnt a problem, is it.. ohhh im so blonde please tell me mister what i am supposed to do... what was ram again?
If you lag it and only you are complaining, If so here's a quick guide to improve your gaming, It's called cancel and play something less intence computer wise.
I have investigated this issue alot, i have investigated it 4 days now. I know what i talk about since i am payed (well, thank you) to talk about these issues...
I have reinstalled my OS, i have removed my server, my HUB, changed modem, installed another computer, installed another OS, let my just installed OS run smooth and clean (no apps), changed my underwear, run several memorie clearing programs, checked for virusses, used VPN to my works network, played from my work (straight connected to backbone)...
Then i became tired of it, and when i warped to another solarsystem, i noticed something i didnt notice before: No lag, no problems, fun playing.
You can say: YOU F* WHINERAAH BLAAAH... But ever wondered why you had so much lag in algolille? or had so much lag all the sudden after warping? Huge data the server cant handle, i cant force people out a solarsytem... Dont want and dont feel like it...
However if i mail a GM with the question if this is an exploit, and it causes me loads of lag, and people can change this by playing normal (like me and im not having a problem had 3 extruded, 1 hmb, 3x hmp 6x c4s and loads other stuff in 1 day.) then i place the problem with the people who cause this.
Call it whiney, call it muppet... When you CTD because some guy uses Sensor dampners or sensor boosters, and you find yourself podded then your not happy either. This issue is a comparable issue who can be dealt with by players.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 19:55:00 -
[57]
Gee, did you ever think maybe that system was simply laggy on the server side? I get that sometimes you know, even in empire space, some systems are laggy as ****, the next one is fine. How do you know it's caused by chain killing? Your only 'proof' is that someone happened to be doing it in the system when it was laggy. I've seen people mining in a system when it's been laggy, so maybe they're exploiting too. Lets ban them as well. In fact, from now on every time I get a little lag I will petition for everyone in the system to be banned for exploiting. I can't very well have anyone lagging up my game.
|
Ana Khouri
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 19:56:00 -
[58]
But really strange that YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE affected so far, isn't it?
Noone I spoke with even *hinted* to have that problem, even someone with a 28 modem.
free speech not allowed here |
Digital Sin
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 19:56:00 -
[59]
Quote:
In how many hours? 5? 10? If you chain or mine bistot you make as much in 90 minutes.
Another thing - lag. You should take into account that Eve sometimes get's a memory hole. Yesterday I lagged horrbile, restarted eve - no lag. In addition to that a niche mining party creats considerably more lag that chaining.
A "chaining produces lag 0-> chaining bad /exploit, etc" argumetn is just dumb, you could ban 50% of all eve activities then.
thats just the ISK value. the heatsink i found is worth 5 million isk, the two skadis are 3.5m each, the anode can sell for 3, the partial hull expanders are 2.5m each, the crystals recycle for megacyte (600 of which i now have from a days worth of farming) i have about four or five rareloot EM hardeners, local hull reinforced bulkheads, and Xecl Mining lasers which help me mine bistot better when i feel like it. :) thanks to my rareloot stuff, i can now get near a refine of bistot every 7 minutes and haul it all in my supermining amarr battleship.
"To be content,to be comfortable, is to be complacent. No one learns anything from pleasure..pain on the other hand is a most efficient instructor" |
Daan
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:02:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Daan on 17/08/2003 20:03:37
omg this is the mmog version of cs,
I'm waiting for the day to come when I drop out of the game with a msg box that says "kicked by console"
DREAMWORKS come to curse, I farm there, ask me gently to stop, I'm sure you can petition 1minute later..
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DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:02:00 -
[61]
Quote:
But really strange that YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE affected so far, isn't it?
Noone I spoke with even *hinted* to have that problem, even someone with a 28 modem.
Noone is smart enough, look at the average reaction of the guys reacting to this topic. Calling someone muppet or carebear for only stating his opinion and his result of 4 days investigation shows a lack of intellect.
Maybe it was one solarsystem, strange enough i investigated several solarsystems where these kind of actions were done. Today i encountered one guy who did it, and he was online for 1 hour in the same solarsystem... After 1 hour i noticed the same paterns: ship jumping back, modules activated 1 second later than pressing F1, smartbomb not activating in time (missle 5km distance, smartbomb activates well after the impact is done.) Then i asked on local: Dude are you farming, and warped to a belt i didnt warped to before (always fly 5 belts close to each other to minimalize capdrain during warp). He said yes.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
agrizla
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:04:00 -
[62]
150ms from The Netherlands to London?!? Umm if you're not on dial-up then your ISP is overcontending or their routing is utterly bolloxed. Try a maximum of 30ms into LINX (which the C&W node hangs off - although it's not immediately obvious).
|
Ana Khouri
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:04:00 -
[63]
Ert.. that wasn't replied to you, digital sin
The loot issue can be tricky. Sometimes I have the devils own luck (for example, yesterday 2 HMB in 2 hours), sometimes the loot just sucks,
BTw - you wouldn't mind telling where you can find 1 50k + 4 40k sansha spawns, wouldn't you?
free speech not allowed here |
Daan
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:05:00 -
[64]
Quote:
150ms from The Netherlands to London?!? Umm if you're not on dial-up then your ISP is overcontending or their routing is utterly bolloxed. Try a maximum of 30ms into LINX (which the C&W node hangs off - although it's not immediately obvious).
I did a traceroute from NL to the eve server, its via nyc :/
|
Darth Maul
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:06:00 -
[65]
Does anyone know what System Dreamworks hangs out in?
Damn I hope it's 0.0
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DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:06:00 -
[66]
Quote:
150ms from The Netherlands to London?!? Umm if you're not on dial-up then your ISP is overcontending or their routing is utterly bolloxed. Try a maximum of 30ms into LINX (which the C&W node hangs off - although it's not immediately obvious).
Every remark from you is wrong:
Iceland dude, i play with a server connected to iceland:
check out IP 166.63.217.6, this is one of the ip's that my packets come across.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Ana Khouri
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:08:00 -
[67]
Well, I have seen him at Gehi today, it's 0.3, but the hunting ground there are 0.0.
If we cannot chain we can for sure find alternative targets there
free speech not allowed here |
DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:08:00 -
[68]
Quote:
Does anyone know what System Dreamworks hangs out in?
Damn I hope it's 0.0
heh what you going to do, come in your little bantam trying to shoot me?
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
agrizla
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:18:00 -
[69]
Edited by: agrizla on 17/08/2003 20:20:48
Edited by: agrizla on 17/08/2003 20:19:23
Quote:
Quote:
150ms from The Netherlands to London?!? Umm if you're not on dial-up then your ISP is overcontending or their routing is utterly bolloxed. Try a maximum of 30ms into LINX (which the C&W node hangs off - although it's not immediately obvious).
Every remark from you is wrong:
Iceland dude, i play with a server connected to iceland:
check out IP 166.63.217.6, this is one of the ip's that my packets come across.
Umm no. You play on an IP address owned by Iceland Telecom located in London. I think I'm going to buy you a cluepack :D
On second thoughts - why bother? You are entertaining
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DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:22:00 -
[70]
Quote:
Edited by: agrizla on 17/08/2003 20:20:48
Edited by: agrizla on 17/08/2003 20:19:23
Quote:
Quote:
150ms from The Netherlands to London?!? Umm if you're not on dial-up then your ISP is overcontending or their routing is utterly bolloxed. Try a maximum of 30ms into LINX (which the C&W node hangs off - although it's not immediately obvious).
Every remark from you is wrong:
Iceland dude, i play with a server connected to iceland:
check out IP 166.63.217.6, this is one of the ip's that my packets come across.
Umm no. You play on an IP address owned by Iceland Telecom located in London. I think I'm going to buy you a cluepack :D
On second thoughts - why bother? You are entertaining
:P
gatt2.isholf.is :)
inetnum: 157.157.0.0 - 157.157.255.255
netname: ISHOLF
descr: Data Communications Department
descr: Iceland Telecom
country: IS
admin-c: BG4827-RIPE
tech-c: IB506-RIPE
rev-srv: icenet.isholf.is
rev-srv: dns2.isholf.is
status: ASSIGNED PA
notify: [email protected]
mnt-by: ICENET-MNT
changed: [email protected] 19990929
changed: [email protected] 20030619
source: RIPE
route: 157.157.0.0/16
descr: ICENET Autonomous system
descr: Iceland Telecom
origin: AS6677
mnt-by: ICENET-MNT
changed: [email protected] 19990929
source: RIPE
person: Benedikt Grondal
address: Iceland Telecom
address: IS-150 Reykjavik
address: Iceland
phone: +354 550 7470
e-mail: [email protected]
nic-hdl: BG4827-RIPE
mnt-by: ICENET-MNT
changed: [email protected] 20001023
source: RIPE
person: Ingvar Bjarnason
address: Iceland Telecom
address: Armuli 25
address: 150 Reykjavik
address: Iceland
phone: +354 550 7478
e-mail: [email protected]
nic-hdl: IB506-RIPE
mnt-by: ICENET-MNT
changed: [email protected] 20020926
source: RIPE
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Ulstan
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:23:00 -
[71]
"After 1 hour i noticed the same paterns: ship jumping back, modules activated 1 second later than pressing F1, smartbomb not activating in time (missle 5km distance, smartbomb activates well after the impact is done.)"
Um, yeah, that's caused by the memory leak, not cans building up in asteroid belts you're not even at.
I've been lagged to heck in systems where I am the *only one*. Then I jump to systems where there are 3 guys chain killing NPC's and it doesnt' lag at all.
And what exactly are you considering the exploit? Killing NPC's? Chain killing NPC's by deaggroing one? Chain killing NPC's just because they spawn faster than you can kill them? Leaving cargo cans lying around?
You need to be more specific.
|
DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:26:00 -
[72]
Edited by: DREAMWORKS on 17/08/2003 20:28:08
Quote:
"After 1 hour i noticed the same paterns: ship jumping back, modules activated 1 second later than pressing F1, smartbomb not activating in time (missle 5km distance, smartbomb activates well after the impact is done.)"
Um, yeah, that's caused by the memory leak, not cans building up in asteroid belts you're not even at.
I've been lagged to heck in systems where I am the *only one*. Then I jump to systems where there are 3 guys chain killing NPC's and it doesnt' lag at all.
And what exactly are you considering the exploit? Killing NPC's? Chain killing NPC's by deaggroing one? Chain killing NPC's just because they spawn faster than you can kill them? Leaving cargo cans lying around?
You need to be more specific.
Erhm, no. Lag still beeing there after a reboot (complete) isnt a memory leak. I also have several memory clearing tools who clean up my memory once in 15 minutes (keeps system nice and stable.)
An exploit is using an bug to your own advantage: You know that when you leave the last pirate, you are farming and you intentionally leave it alive to make more pirate spawn those who are not intended to spawn.
And even with my newb weapons i can kill 50k's fairly easy. >:)
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Ana Khouri
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:34:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 17/08/2003 20:41:16
I have still to see *any* confirmation of this.
Oh, and I keep my point. If you're the only one who has problems with this - haven't see someone saying "oh god, you're right" so far - the only logical conclusion is that there's something wrong with your systems.
Reinstalling and testing doesn't matters here, if noone others has the problem it's something with your rig/connection.
free speech not allowed here |
Daan
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:36:00 -
[74]
Why on earth then, when im farming and have over 100 tainers floating around me, am I not lagging myself even without restarting the client?
|
agrizla
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:38:00 -
[75]
Edited by: agrizla on 17/08/2003 20:40:59
Clueless again Dreamworks. The owner of an IP address as given by a RIPE lookup does not indicate the location of that IP address. If that were the case then two Deutsch Telecom IP addresses are located in my back bedroom in the UK.
I really think you need a cluepack
Then again you may be getting confused with the authentication server - hell I can't be bothered to check. Have fun with all the new "friends" you've made in this thread eh? Maybe you can petition all of them for being nasty?
|
DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:41:00 -
[76]
Quote:
I have still to see *any* confirmation of this.
Oh, and I keep my point. If your the only one who has problems with this - haven't see someone saying "oh god, you're right" so far - the only lgical conclusion is that there's something wrong with your systems.
Reinstalling and testing doesn't matters here, if noone others has the problems it's something with your rig/connection.
Agree, yet i have heard from numerous players who experience lag for no explainable reason.
With these actions i hope:
CCP looking into this (senior staff received my email).
Players become aware what troubles they cause and limit it somewhat, or do it in a system where no other players are (enough, check the map.)
For all i care, this can be the sollution to solve stuck systems, cause less lag and make eve more balanced (as in software and server bug part).
Who knows what is digged up by my rant, i had my laugh and hope people will become aware of this problem and maybe realize that this is one troublestarter. And therefor whine to CCP to fix it. Maybe more people will test it and even send in logs.
If its not a troublestarter, my apologies in advance. But looking into it is worth it. We all know that alot of containers at a gate made the game laggy (thats why we have the jettison rule), maybe CCP will stop finding easy sollutions and looks into the mather.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Hikaru Okuda
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:41:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Hikaru Okuda on 17/08/2003 20:47:41
I'm going to have to side with the majority here. How can chaining being an exploit? That's stretching it since the "continuous spawn" happens to people that don't even try the "chain" thing. Maybe it's a bug, but still it happens whether you want it or not.
We had 4 of us in cruisers and could not kill the pirates fast enough to stop them chaining. We wanted to stop them; we really, really did. It just kept going. We wanted to go through the cans and we had one person there trying to mine the Bistot. But the continuous spawns happen even if you don't want it. Sorry if I can't kill a 50K pirate in one shot... Yet anyway  . We fought for a long time so the guy trying to mine finished and then we tried to get as many of the cans as we could (while still fighting) until we ran out of ammo.
A person killing NPC's alone is going to run into this problem quite often--even with frigate pirates since they are harder to hit now (due to tracking). I've seen spawns of six frigates that took as long to kill as 2 or three cruisers.
And now, the cruisers seem to be opening up with turrets at range instead of just missiles, so they actually take a little longer to kill too.
So, since the continuous spawn is likely to happen even if you want it to stop... What are we supposed to do? Hunt players (time to fill out an application for Space Invaders)? Miners don't insta-spawn.
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ChaosTEK
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Posted - 2003.08.17 20:42:00 -
[78]
LMAO I farm in systems with up to 9 other people. At any given time their are 50+ can's in various belt... usualy 100+ in mine and i have yet to experiance lag from this.
When I leave a belt it IS can free 
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Daan
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:47:00 -
[79]
Quote:
If its not a troublestarter, my apologies in advance. But looking into it is worth it. We all know that alot of containers at a gate made the game laggy (thats why we have the jettison rule), maybe CCP will stop finding easy sollutions and looks into the mather.
it only lagged someone when he warped in andhad to load the scene you *insert nasty words here*
If you experience lag in a sys and think its because of players/chaining, move to another sys.
|
Ana Khouri
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:49:00 -
[80]
*sigh* Dreamworks, for the 3rd? 4th? time:
You cannot simply say that lag is caused from cans in a belt far, far away. There are a LOT of other possible reasons.
Memory leak. Amount of players in the server. Mining partys. Laggy connection in your region (RL) because more people get online.
So far we have 1 "chaining lags the system" and >5 people saying "haven' experience more or less lag when chaining/in a system where someone is chaining"
free speech not allowed here |
DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:50:00 -
[81]
Quote:
Quote:
If its not a troublestarter, my apologies in advance. But looking into it is worth it. We all know that alot of containers at a gate made the game laggy (thats why we have the jettison rule), maybe CCP will stop finding easy sollutions and looks into the mather.
it only lagged someone when he warped in andhad to load the scene you *insert nasty words here*
If you experience lag in a sys and think its because of players/chaining, move to another sys.
And what if chaining is a part or the cause of stuck systems people traffel through? Should it be left alone then? Or should it be handled? How precious is your little money farm?
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
ChaosTEK
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:53:00 -
[82]
How the hell can cans in one belt lag the whole system. You load the cans when you enter the belt not the system.
If the cans lag the way you say than the m0o blockades would of lagged the whole system as well.
|
DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 20:53:00 -
[83]
Edited by: DREAMWORKS on 17/08/2003 20:54:10
Quote:
*sigh* Dreamworks, for the 3rd? 4th? time:
You cannot simply say that lag is caused from cans in a belt far, far away. There are a LOT of other possible reasons.
Memory leak. Amount of players in the server. Mining partys. Laggy connection in your region (RL) because more people get online.
So far we have 1 "chaining lags the system" and >5 people saying "haven' experience more or less lag when chaining/in a system where someone is chaining"
I have said it once before and will say it once again:
I was alone with 1 player. 1st occasion
Second case was alone with 3 players
third with 1 player but he left in a hour.
The cans in the belt are not far away, they are all load in your system when you enter the system and they are updated when they exist. The system updates your whole solarsystem in 1 time, thats why you get that loading message every time you jump through a jumpgate.
edit also mentioned well before that i am 100% certain my nor my isp, nor the isp in iceland, or england is to blame.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Sally
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:01:00 -
[84]
Dreamworks is the carebear of the week.
People are playing the game by design and are chain spawn killing NPCs and he calls this an exploit.
You better accuse 50% of the people playing the game then of using an exploit. And you better ask CCP to warn or ban them all.
As for the cans. I was always shooting the cans to clean it up, but with the recent HP increase I wouldn't do it anylonger.
--
Stories: #1
--
|
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:04:00 -
[85]
Calvert quietly closes the door on the topic and promises never to ever EVER call someone a carebear unless they pwns the carebearness of this topic
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
agrizla
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:05:00 -
[86]
You actually load the items when you enter a grid square. Not when you enter a field or a system.
Oh and BTW I'd like to petition an entire system for being laggy despite having no cans/ships in it at all - apart from me The GMs and a Polaris member know which one as they fixed it last weekend. I feel it was exploiting players and should be banned
Get a bloody grip on yourself Dreamworks - or is your name indicative of your behaviour?
|
Ana Khouri
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:08:00 -
[87]
Ok, last posting here. I hate dealing with Stone Deaf's.
Just answer this question. You report experiencing it. A lot of others report that they do not experience it.
Conclusion: You're right and everyone else is worng?
free speech not allowed here |
Sally
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:08:00 -
[88]
Btw, this is exactly what I have been saying all time now.
If the carebear can't beat you in game, he threatens you with filing a petition against you. Regardless if it has some sense or not, one clueless GM is going to help this carebear.
Bad losers.
--
Stories: #1
--
|
agrizla
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:13:00 -
[89]
Quote:
Dreamworks is the carebear of the week.
Umm sorry Molly but if Joshua Calvert is saying he'll never call anyone a carebear again unless they get worse than this then I'm afraid he is the ultimate carebear.
Someone needs to do him a suitable "ph34r meh p3titi0ns" sig
|
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:15:00 -
[90]
Ugh...too many ways to reply to this one. So I'll go for the short answer.
Till CCP says PUBLICALLY AND CLEARLY that this is considered an exploit, it is not one. It does not matter how much Dreamworks THINKS it's an exploit. He has no authority to declare something an exploit.
And you'll pardon me if I refuse to be gullible enough to take his word on what they say.
Nuff Said 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
John Zeppe
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:17:00 -
[91]
Quote:
Btw, this is exactly what I have been saying all time now.
If the carebear can't beat you in game, he threatens you with filing a petition against you. Regardless if it has some sense or not, one clueless GM is going to help this carebear.
Bad losers.
Oh my, I almost agree with someone called 'Molly' 
|
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:17:00 -
[92]
Quote:
Quote:
Dreamworks is the carebear of the week.
Umm sorry Molly but if Joshua Calvert is saying he'll never call anyone a carebear again unless they get worse than this then I'm afraid he is the ultimate carebear.
Someone needs to do him a suitable "ph34r meh p3titi0ns" sig
Thing is, I don't actually call anyone a carebear!
It'd take someone especially fluffy to make me utter that word
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:19:00 -
[93]
Quote:
Btw, this is exactly what I have been saying all time now.
If the carebear can't beat you in game, he threatens you with filing a petition against you. Regardless if it has some sense or not, one clueless GM is going to help this carebear.
Bad losers.
Honney, when did you escaped out of my basement?
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:23:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 17/08/2003 21:24:33
Quote:
Quote:
Aren't you the same guy thats trying to muscle in on manufacturers by attempting to make them fix prices?
He is and I've heard yet more rumours about trade federation "enforcement" action around Amarr and Bourynes last night. This enforcement seems to take the form of "stealing" ore from corps and issuing them with a warning to join the trade federation and/or raise their prices. As yet I've yet to find anyone who has first-hand experience of this - so far it's just rumours (people who say they were in-system at the time). Anyone who knows anything more about this then I'd like to hear about it.
Oh and DREAMWORKS name keeps cropping up as one of the enforcers - although because of this I'm inclined to not believe any of these rumours as I don't think he'd have the balls to do this.
Hrm...why don't you ask him what FDZ4-A, Momm, an extremely well know pirate corporation, an extremely well known pirate seen killing in very high sec space whose name starts with 'T' and a megacorporation currently under fire for possible indiscretions involving mining equipment all have in common.
Since you say he's TFA and given what I've seen in FDZ4-A, I'd say this is an excellent reason to ignore him...
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
agrizla
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:30:00 -
[95]
Edited by: agrizla on 17/08/2003 21:32:41
Jash - message me in game eh about these links? A friend's corp is about to join the "trade federation" and he's not happy about it. I don't trust the TF at all but my friend can't convince the CEO.
NB - my friend is not a alt of me. I personally think the trade federation are lazy unimaginative scum, but hey that's just me
Edit - and yes I can work it out (mostly) but he won't be able to as he never reads the forums.
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DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:32:00 -
[96]
Quote:
Edited by: Jash Illian on 17/08/2003 21:24:33
Quote:
Quote:
Aren't you the same guy thats trying to muscle in on manufacturers by attempting to make them fix prices?
He is and I've heard yet more rumours about trade federation "enforcement" action around Amarr and Bourynes last night. This enforcement seems to take the form of "stealing" ore from corps and issuing them with a warning to join the trade federation and/or raise their prices. As yet I've yet to find anyone who has first-hand experience of this - so far it's just rumours (people who say they were in-system at the time). Anyone who knows anything more about this then I'd like to hear about it.
Oh and DREAMWORKS name keeps cropping up as one of the enforcers - although because of this I'm inclined to not believe any of these rumours as I don't think he'd have the balls to do this.
Hrm...why don't you ask him what FDZ4-A, Momm, an extremely well know pirate corporation, an extremely well known pirate seen killing in very high sec space whose name starts with 'T' and a megacorporation currently under fire for possible indiscretions involving mining equipment all have in common.
Since you say he's TFA and given what I've seen in FDZ4-A, I'd say this is an excellent reason to ignore him...
I dont really get what you are talking about, but the Trade Federation is no part of this. However i must enforce my previous shoutouts about the following:
There has been a guy sighted named DREAMW0RKS (with a zero) who has been stealing ore in my name and my corporations name and the trade federation.
Im not an enforcer, nor i have any desire to be one in this mather (people who think that are retarded.). I might shoot ppl for anoying my brains out, yet i will never steal ore nor will i relate anything to the Trade Federation.
The trade federation has idea's i respect and as customer i agree with, however these idea's are 100% enforced by market strategies (economics). Voilence nor thievery is not a part of these actions.
I hope this made it all clear for you, for more info you can join me or Trade Federation for a conversation.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Sally
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:32:00 -
[97]
EVE Offline has a new column: Carebear of the day. DREAMWORKS is the first Carebear of the day of EVE Offline. Congratulations DREAMWORKS.
Read the story under http://www.eve-offline.de/carebear-of-the-day-2003-08-17.html.
If you want to nominate someone for the Carebear of the day, drop me an E-Mail to the address mentioned there.
--
Stories: #1
--
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Nirvy
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Posted - 2003.08.17 21:45:00 -
[98]
I have spent 3 or 4 hours with 5 or 6 friends farming pirates in 0.0 systems with 15+ roid belts , and have never experience lag that couldnt be fixed by logging.
The lag we get is by warping in to a system when we are ready to collect the cans.
Mercenary | The Azath |
la'Rei
|
Posted - 2003.08.17 21:50:00 -
[99]
Quote:
Quote:
chainkilling is not an exploit if the mobs are still attacking you - essentially what is happening (as intended) is the remaining mob(s) call in reenforcements to try to kill you off deliberatly not killing the mob isnt an exploit (however if you use methods to de-agro the mob then it would be considered an exploit as per what has been said in the past by CCP
Offcourse i have send a petition to verify if this is an exploit, and the official word is that CCP see this as an exploit because you activate a script/code that isnt normal and not intended as it should be. No mather if you de-agressor it or not, you cause a spawn that isnt normal.
Its very hard for CCP to find these farmers and to find the cause in it, since everyone who knows this technique isnt likely to send a logserver report to CCP.
However if CCP received data and chatlog of a farmer claiming he farms, this is likely bannable.
Currently the score is:
Dreamworks 1-0 farmers.
1 farmer is requested to cease there actions and is attacked to enforce this, the farmer now doesnt use this tactic anymore.
I have to add to you guys that i dont have any problem with farmers, you can farm all you like for what i care. But if you farm you cause lag in the system people are in, therefor you cause grief too others and make their hobby a pain... (i felt like that when having 10-20 seconds lag and finding out my shield dropped from 100% to 0% and 98% armor. with 2 hardeners on!.)
So if you do: Dont do it near, or in the system i am in...
drunkenmaster, thanks for your offer... This is indeed in non-empire space.
Your seriously on *****, or werent in beta.
This has been there SINCE beta.
75% of NPC pirate hunters USE this.
it has NOT tempoarily vanished.
it has ALWAYS been there. If this is an exploit. so is skill training.
-rei
_________________________
Trolling is bad. Please dont do it.
-rei |
Wolf Leader
|
Posted - 2003.08.18 01:17:00 -
[100]
All im saying is if this topic makes ccp decide to either take away or slow down chain spawns... You are gonna have alot of people hate u and i inclding. I dont think ccp will take them away but you nevr know
But im a nice guy..... |
OVERCOPES 1
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Posted - 2003.08.18 01:37:00 -
[101]
Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 18/08/2003 01:48:14
Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 18/08/2003 01:38:29
dreamworks is a can ***** who operates out of arbaz.his alt corp is called acme corp.
so how dare you whine about exploits when your a fricking can thief.
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CortexX
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Posted - 2003.08.18 02:12:00 -
[102]
Hmmmmmm
You really love to whine Dreamworks , it must be your first MMOLG .
I have never got the lag you talk about , also if you are running memory optimizers you are probably one of those wannabe technicians that think using all the gimmiky utilities available on downoad.com is gonna make your pc do the impossible .
All you need is a virus scan , remove everything else in your startup ( using msconfig ) , then reboot and play he game .
My current PC runs for weeks on end with no reboot and i dont get your problems .
Stop blaming CCP and dump the ****ty utilities you use .
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.08.18 02:42:00 -
[103]
this has to be one of the funniest threads EVER... wow killing npc's is exploit LOL... wow
so what if a person puts on a set up that keeps him at a good distance and he can keep taking one pirate at a time and say more pirates spawn??
you call that an exploit? WOW something is wrong!!!
so you going to call other ppl with uber PC's exploiters because they can handle more load then your $hit???
come on, if ccp wants to fix it they would have fixed it... and if they fix it they better make the pirates drop some good loot because it takes 100's of pirates to get even something of value now, and yes i always clean up after my self, have been doing ever since... ppl that dont are just lazy it is also good for recycling...
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.08.18 02:47:00 -
[104]
I always clean up my belt too, I just take an indy in and scoop up everything and then recycle what I don't want to keep. If I don't have an indy close by I'll just empty all the cans into my hold, then when I'm full put all the crap into a single can and blow it up. No big deal, and it's probably one of the most demanding ways to make money in EVE as you have to be there and pay attention the whole time. There's risk involved and it takes a lot of attention to pull off, which is why it gives more reward than mining scordite.
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.08.18 02:48:00 -
[105]
better thread would have been... CCP optimize your game more and remove the mem/virtual mem leaks there...
ya its intresting how this game will keep on growing and growning... though im limited to 256mb on this old sdram system that is runing a 2.18ghz amd with a gef4
i dont see other games giong and growing like this one does... i saw eve try to eat up 200mb mem and 200mb of my 500mb vir mem...
you should look when you start the game how much it only takes up... yes it should grow a bit but not to the full limits of your system
you would think that 128mb of vid mem would be used for something eh?
eh enough of my rant...
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
ChaosTEK
|
Posted - 2003.08.18 02:54:00 -
[106]
It's obvious what this guy's trying to do. He's part of the trade cartel who will stop at nothing to make more profit. Farming is obviously putting a dent in his pockets so he's calling it an exploit hoping ccp will patch it.
That or the fact that theirs been alot of lag lately and he's too stupid to under stand how the game works.
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.08.18 09:34:00 -
[107]
Quote:
Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 18/08/2003 01:48:14
Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 18/08/2003 01:38:29
dreamworks is a can ***** who operates out of arbaz.his alt corp is called acme corp.
so how dare you whine about exploits when your a fricking can thief.
Ah you met dreamw0rks (with the zero), sorry in this case i wished i registered the name.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Braccas
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Posted - 2003.08.18 09:51:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Braccas on 18/08/2003 09:52:04
Quote:
Offcourse i have send a petition to verify if this is an exploit, and the official word is that CCP see this as an exploit because you activate a script/code that isnt normal and not intended as it should be. No mather if you de-agressor it or not, you cause a spawn that isnt normal.
So if you do: Dont do it near, or in the system i am in...
1.May i please see that "official word"?
2.WTF? U kidding? Are u threatening me personally (and everyone else in here)? Don¦t talk down to me! I¦ll remember that, just as u will remember that i wouldn¦t p*ss on u if u were on fire.
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Kalle Port
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Posted - 2003.08.18 10:13:00 -
[109]
Why don't they make the reinforcements stronger each time? Guy is chainspawning, and suddenly in stead of 5 cruisers spawning he gets 5 battleships :)
I think chainspawning will take a whole new dimension then :)
Of course after a few weeks ccp will have to find a way to prevent people using that to cause bs spawns which they then use as loot et...
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Riddari
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Posted - 2003.08.18 10:23:00 -
[110]
Awesome.. the first person to go on my personal KOS list.
¼©¼
a history |
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.08.18 10:38:00 -
[111]
There's an easy fix to this whole thing, program respawns to either not come at all due to overwhelming firepower on the opposite side, especially if no mining equipment were revealed in the scan, or come in great numbers, say 50 of them at one time.
Of course this has to be coded so it can't be easily predicted, easy enough, right?!
Farming is for ****ants, are you a ****ant?
Convert Stations
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Smithers
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Posted - 2003.08.18 10:50:00 -
[112]
Dreamworks, your not a GM, you don't enforce any rules but you do seem to be a serial whiner.
If your killing NPC's and they keep spawning what the hell are you supposed to do about it? just warp away and leave the loot cans, no, you carry on killing.
You are Jim Hensons finest creation, The Complete Muppet. |
Carp Riddell
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Posted - 2003.08.18 11:10:00 -
[113]
Quote:
Edited by: DREAMWORKS on 17/08/2003 13:09:57
Some idiots are using this zgeek man method, aka farming...
<stuff removed>
If i cant fight you, ill report you... Got it?
DREAMWORKS, that is quite the most pathetic thing I have _ever_ read. Grow up or sod off.
- Carp Riddell
- CEO, Innsmouth Shipping
- Proud Member of Curse Alliance
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Kashej
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Posted - 2003.08.18 11:29:00 -
[114]
OMG отморозок!!!
Good Luck
O(o_o)O - y kotorogo net dryzei.
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Lady Callisto
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Posted - 2003.08.18 11:29:00 -
[115]
LOL looks like your guys whine harder then dream...
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Masi
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Posted - 2003.08.18 11:34:00 -
[116]
Who wants to farm DREAMWORKS and his corp? I can't belive how many *****s play this game all they do is whine about it, no wonder your bored. ****off some where else and stop trying to change things cause YOU can't do it and others can.
-------------------------
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Lady Callisto
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Posted - 2003.08.18 11:36:00 -
[117]
Quote:
Who wants to farm DREAMWORKS and his corp? I can't belive how many *****s play this game all they do is whine about it, no wonder your bored. ****off some where else and stop trying to change things cause YOU can't do it and others can.
dude what are you doing now... whine !
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Masi
|
Posted - 2003.08.18 11:36:00 -
[118]
Quote:
Hmmmmmm
You really love to whine Dreamworks , it must be your first MMOLG .
I have never got the lag you talk about , also if you are running memory optimizers you are probably one of those wannabe technicians that think using all the gimmiky utilities available on downoad.com is gonna make your pc do the impossible .
All you need is a virus scan , remove everything else in your startup ( using msconfig ) , then reboot and play he game .
My current PC runs for weeks on end with no reboot and i dont get your problems .
Stop blaming CCP and dump the ****ty utilities you use .
Well said.
-------------------------
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Stront3h
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Posted - 2003.08.18 11:36:00 -
[119]
The reason I called you a Muppet is not because of your investigation etc, but the fact that you've petitioned this as an exploit and have little understanding of how the net actually works.
The main cause of the lag is that CCP appear to have neglected to sort out piering [sp?] agreements with major ISP's. My ISP is the largest provider of home ADSL in the UK and my route to the CCP servers (which are in the UK) is via NY. My lag issues tend to start late evening which is when I'd imagine that a lot of people in the US log onto the net. I've played on line games for nearly 5 years now and have seen this issue arise with many new GSP's. BlueYonder for instance had a problem with NTL customers using their servers as they were being routed via Outer Mongolia or the likes. I still have problems using German game servers as they all route me via NY again.
Once again the use of the word Muppet was not due to the effort you used to try and see what you problem was (although misguided) but the fact that you filed a petition saying this was an exploit. For those of us that hate mining there is little left in this game already SO DONT TRY AND SPOIL WHAT FUN IS LEFT FOR US. COMPRONDE?
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.08.18 12:26:00 -
[120]
I kill NPC-farmers. Not because I think they lag the system, but because they are generally stupid*, and ill-equipped for meeting other humans.
Dreamworks has got himself a mission. Despite the basis of the mission being shoddy, it is *his* mission.
You guys can't tell him what to do any more than he can tell you. Because he won't listen to you any more than you listen to him. Especially if you consider the language some of you are using.
This thread is going nowhere. And now it's got to the point where people aren't even reading the thread, and making daft assumptions, and looking like children.
If Dreamworks wants to attack NPC farmers, who are we to say it's wrong?
Maybe his support story is wrong. But it's as good an excuse for violence as any I've seen. And I bet you get more rare loot for killing the farmers rather than the NPC's...
Just relax. All of you. 
* yes. they are. A few aren't, but that's why I buy insurance.
.
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.08.18 12:37:00 -
[121]
Drunken: I may not be able to kill you (blackbird?), but then again you won't kill me either. If I can't kill you (lock) I'll just run away.
No way I'm letting someone closer than 10km (farming without local active is stupid, farming without zooming out so you notice when someone warps in is even worse).
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Nikodaemonicus
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Posted - 2003.08.18 13:03:00 -
[122]
Quote:
Edited by: DREAMWORKS on 17/08/2003 13:09:57
Some idiots are using this zgeek man method, aka farming...
If you are farming, please make sure you clean up the solarsystem and take another solar system once or twice. Because if you farm you cause enormous lag and trouble to others, even if you dont mean too. It seems solar systems can be affected by it, and i no longer are willingly to move around trying to aviod these idiots.
Thnx for your cooperation.
I'm an idiot and will not help you, fool.
Ask CCP to sell you your own system, they will laugh a lot carebear.
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Nikodaemonicus
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Posted - 2003.08.18 13:11:00 -
[123]
Quote:
I kill NPC-farmers. Not because I think they lag the system, but because they are generally stupid*, and ill-equipped for meeting other humans.
Dreamworks has got himself a mission. Despite the basis of the mission being shoddy, it is *his* mission.
You guys can't tell him what to do any more than he can tell you. Because he won't listen to you any more than you listen to him. Especially if you consider the language some of you are using.
This thread is going nowhere. And now it's got to the point where people aren't even reading the thread, and making daft assumptions, and looking like children.
If Dreamworks wants to attack NPC farmers, who are we to say it's wrong?
Maybe his support story is wrong. But it's as good an excuse for violence as any I've seen. And I bet you get more rare loot for killing the farmers rather than the NPC's...
Just relax. All of you.
* yes. they are. A few aren't, but that's why I buy insurance.
Maybe you weren't reading well drunk. DW started with rude words, what do you expect from other people to do? Some may be polite and reply skiping the same language DW used, some others not. Personally I will kill any sort of forums carebear-whiners, they are not good for this game.
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Rock Dollar
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Posted - 2003.08.18 14:00:00 -
[124]
Dreamwhatever, you really are a nugget.
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Belepheron
|
Posted - 2003.08.18 14:37:00 -
[125]
Quote:
Edited by: DREAMWORKS on 17/08/2003 13:09:57
I am a tool
agreed.
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drunkenmaster
|
Posted - 2003.08.18 15:15:00 -
[126]
Jarjar, you would come under the 'not stupid' category then. Of course, if you run, I'll be glad to 'check' your loot cans for you
Quote:
Maybe you weren't reading well drunk. DW started with rude words, what do you expect from other people to do? Some may be polite and reply skiping the same language DW used, some others not. Personally I will kill any sort of forums carebear-whiners, they are not good for this game.
Yeah, but even if he did drop some swears, swearing back only brings us to the same level.
As for killing forum whiners: You have my blessing. Go forth, destroy.
.
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FingerThief
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Posted - 2003.08.18 15:21:00 -
[127]
Sorry, dunno but after page 2 the topic went outta hand. But I would like to reply to the initial problem !DA FARMING!
Well farming this or that. Farming should not be considered an exploit. If it triggers a script/routine ... hey there's a trigger and a scripted/coded response to it ... no exploit.
What they (CCP/DevTeam) should change is the actual content of the respawn.
eg:
5 Blood Reavers (single out 1 kill 4) now triggers another Blood Reaver spawn ...
make it so:
5 Blood Reavers (single out 1 kill 4) spawn 4 Blood Arch Reavers instead of Blood Reavers then if the player is good enuff to take em out also ... step up and spawn him a BS (or 2 or 3 or 4) etc. Just up the threat level !
Naturally, downside with this approach would be that you COULD sit there in a group, smack em dry until the highest threat mob appears and then all the group starts killing for loot/cash.
Should be somehow limited to 1 player in the area and if there is a WarpDrive event detected (departure/arrival) the spawn should be turned off (prevents reinforcements).
.2 isk on that topic !
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.08.18 15:25:00 -
[128]
dreamwork, a guy yesterday told me you attacked him because you accuse him as exploiting, if you in the system and attack again, you'll be treat as pirate from then on.
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Rythymmaster
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Posted - 2003.08.18 16:25:00 -
[129]
Nice job setting urself up for a forum bltch-slap dream....it just denotes how forseeable u are
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plur
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Posted - 2003.08.18 21:34:00 -
[130]
Quote:
I also have several memory clearing tools who clean up my memory once in 15 minutes (keeps system nice and stable.)
now THATS funny. Dreamworks, go read up on how memory works please, computers in general too. your making an ass out of yourself every time you post.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.08.18 22:05:00 -
[131]
Quote:
I dont really get what you are talking about, but the Trade Federation is no part of this. However i must enforce my previous shoutouts about the following:
There has been a guy sighted named DREAMW0RKS (with a zero) who has been stealing ore in my name and my corporations name and the trade federation.
Im not an enforcer, nor i have any desire to be one in this mather (people who think that are retarded.). I might shoot ppl for anoying my brains out, yet i will never steal ore nor will i relate anything to the Trade Federation.
The trade federation has idea's i respect and as customer i agree with, however these idea's are 100% enforced by market strategies (economics). Voilence nor thievery is not a part of these actions.
I hope this made it all clear for you, for more info you can join me or Trade Federation for a conversation
Sorry it took so long responding. Page 5 had a subscript out of range error till today.
It's very simple: You have 0 credibility with me because of your ties to the TF. So I wouldn't take your word if it was tied to 2 billion isk and a bship original blueprint.
Not when a well known representative of the Trade Federation was seen meeting with serveral pirates and TTI's CEO. Not when the same representative, who represents an organization that is allegedly trying to stabilize the manufacturing market, was seen JUST LAST NIGHT offering up multiple unlimited copy blueprints on the Trade channel.
One would think that for a non-violent organization that meeting with pirates and those with pirate ties would be suspicious. One would would think that sellling unlimited copy blueprints on one hand while trying to 'stabilize' the manufacturing market on the other hand would be contradictory.
This one person knows that the Trade Federation's 'goals' are full of space gas. And that you, by your association with them, can be trusted about as far as a ****ed rattlesnake. So you stating that CCP said chaining was exploiting is worth about a bucket of ****.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2003.08.18 22:14:00 -
[132]
drunkenmaster is right about killing NPC-farmers though.
NPC-farmers have to go for endurance and strength and probably have med slots full of shield/cap boosters.
All drunky has to set up for is a bit of remote sensor damping.
He could even skip the webifier and warp-jammer since most spawns worth farming have cruisers that do that for you
Of course, I don't have to worry about that in the systems where I'm currently NPC hunting.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Sidus
|
Posted - 2003.08.18 22:18:00 -
[133]
DREAMWORKS, if you would like we could also notify you of which systems we will all be waging war in, and having mining ops in as well. Maybe the GMs will let you know when they are going to have a major event in a certain system so you won't be bothered... Just let us know what we, as mere players of Eve, can do to make YOUR gaming experience more pleasurable... Is there any other such extremely valid and profound point of tension that is effecting your life in eve right now? Would you like a hug perhaps? Did mommy not breast feed you? We, the rest of the friggin world, would like to apologize.
Have a cookie and shut up bish.
________________________________________________
"Alle warten auf das Licht - f³rchtet euch f³rchtet euch nicht - die Sonne scheint mir aus den Augen - sie wird heut Nacht nicht untergehen - und die Welt zõhlt laut bis zehn"
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Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2003.08.18 22:29:00 -
[134]
Wow, what a hot button issue we have here.
'farming' maybe 'gaming the game' but dont expect it to change if CCP knows whats best for them.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.08.18 23:30:00 -
[135]
"An exploit is using an bug to your own advantage: You know that when you leave the last pirate, you are farming and you intentionally leave it alive to make more pirate spawn those who are not intended to spawn."
GAH! You *still* don't get it.
Many times, you do not have to do *anything* to get a chain spawn. They spawn *faster* than you can kill them. There is no magical 'leaving the last one alone' to get an insta spawn going. I've been tied up in more chain spawns that I did NOT want to be involved in than I can count.
You fire and fire and fire as fast as your guns can reload and they keep coming. I kill one after another after another and so on. How do I end the spawn? Usually, they just eventually peter out and stop coming. I don't have to kill some placeholder or something. If I run out of ammo I have to run away until I can jump to warp. This is how chain spawning works for me and it doesn't lag me at all. It's beyond foolish to claim that items your PC isn't even loading are lagging up the system when everyone else is actually sitting there amidst all the cans without trouble.
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Cookie
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Posted - 2003.08.18 23:51:00 -
[136]
ROFL
we should prolly ban CCP for placing more than 2 asteroids in a belt, eh ?
Oh, wait, theres those starter stations, my god, they must be closed immediately too, theres really too much traffic.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.19 00:00:00 -
[137]
Exactly. I think we should place a limit of 20 people in each newb system - if more log in they will get automatically transported to FD-MLJ (to steal the joke from another thread )- that should keep population (and suscriber) levels down.
free speech not allowed here |
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