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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
38
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Posted - 2013.08.06 08:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
Oh no not another one of these posts. 
One of my associates has started using a Mackinaw instead of a Hulk to mine ore because his Hulk was lost to a four Catalyst team but also because the Mackinaw has a far better tank.
I won't list the full fittings but with the 5% yield hardwiring fitted which of the following would give more yield?
Hulk: MLU II x 1. Running with Scordite T2 mining crystals
Mackinaw: MLU II x 1. Running with Scordite T2 mining crystals
MLU I x 1.
It seemed to me at a glance that with the above fittings the Mackinaw was giving better a yield. If this is the case, which it probably isn't, then it would mean the Hulk is now a joke ship and has been rendered useless by CCP's ship 'rebalancing' program. I'm not personally in favour of any of the 'rebalancing' done so far so I'm somewhat biased regarding this situation.
Nevertheless if someone would be kind enough to do the math and settle this one I would be grateful.
PS This is not a troll. I am genuinely interested. 
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Anhenka
Hounds Of War
WHY so Seri0Us
85
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Posted - 2013.08.06 08:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:Oh no not another one of these posts. One of my associates has started using a Mackinaw instead of a Hulk to mine ore because his Hulk was lost to a four Catalyst team but also because the Mackinaw has a far better tank. I won't list the full fittings but with the 5% yield hardwiring fitted which of the following would give more yield? Hulk: MLU II x 1. Running with Scordite T2 mining crystals Mackinaw: MLU II x 1. Running with Scordite T2 mining crystals MLU I x 1. It seemed to me at a glance that with the above fittings the Mackinaw was giving better a yield. If this is the case, which it probably isn't, then it would mean the Hulk is now a joke ship and has been rendered useless by CCP's ship 'rebalancing' program. I'm not personally in favour of any of the 'rebalancing' done so far so I'm somewhat biased regarding this situation. Nevertheless if someone would be kind enough to do the math and settle this one I would be grateful. PS This is not a troll. I am genuinely interested.
EFT. Get off the couch, load it up, and put in the fittings.
Or think for a few seconds, and realize that the hulks 3 lasers with a 15% yield bonus from barges, plus 3% per exhumer level bonus are better that (2*1.5 yield = 3) lasers with no barges yield bonus and a 1% exhumer yield bonus per level on the on a mack.
It's not exactly rocket science.
It's not even Kerbal level rocket science.
Maybe bottle rocket science.
Or Lego rocket. That's probably best. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
30170
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Posted - 2013.08.06 10:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hulk still rules: charts are about halfway down the page. |
Jorax Torken
Torken Industries
0
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Posted - 2013.08.06 12:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Don't have any actual numbers for you but for mining with support (Orca/Hauler) the Hulk is better, it has the biggest mining yield and always will. When Fleet mining the Hulk's smaller Ore Bay and weaker tank aren't an issue.
For Solo mining I switched to a Mackinaw. The Hulk still gets you slightly more Ore when Solo mining but with the Mack you don't have to make so many trips to the station and have a better chance to survive if attacked. I'd rather have the bigger Ore hold and better tank when i'm out there solo. You can use 3 MLU 2's on the Mack with CPU rigs btw.
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Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
426
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mining in a Hulk is extremely tedious. I recommend you recycle your hulks, put the minerals into a hauler, go to HED and jettison the container.
Mining in a Mack is not much different to fitting a mining laser and engines to a jet-can. That is what I'd recommend.
Also, if you're fitting MLU, you're doing it wrong. Reduce the yield, increase the survivability. Or, work out how long you'd have to mine with your extra yield in order to replace the cost of your ship. If it's a long time, don't bother with the MLU. I haven't fitted one for ages. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
30376
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Posted - 2013.08.06 14:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:
Also, if you're fitting MLU, you're doing it wrong. Reduce the yield, increase the survivability. Or, work out how long you'd have to mine with your extra yield in order to replace the cost of your ship. If it's a long time, don't bother with the MLU. I haven't fitted one for ages.
I have never not fit 2 on each Hulk in 3 years and have never lost a Hulk. A Mack yes, but a Hulk no.
But Mack, Hulk, it matters not.
If they are going to gank you they are going to gank you. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
762
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Posted - 2013.08.06 16:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:Oh no not another one of these posts. One of my associates has started using a Mackinaw instead of a Hulk to mine ore because his Hulk was lost to a four Catalyst team but also because the Mackinaw has a far better tank. I won't list the full fittings but with the 5% yield hardwiring fitted which of the following would give more yield? Hulk: MLU II x 1. Running with Scordite T2 mining crystals Mackinaw: MLU II x 1. Running with Scordite T2 mining crystals MLU I x 1. It seemed to me at a glance that with the above fittings the Mackinaw was giving better a yield. If this is the case, which it probably isn't, then it would mean the Hulk is now a joke ship and has been rendered useless by CCP's ship 'rebalancing' program. I'm not personally in favour of any of the 'rebalancing' done so far so I'm somewhat biased regarding this situation. Nevertheless if someone would be kind enough to do the math and settle this one I would be grateful. PS This is not a troll. I am genuinely interested.
the HULK is better, but it depends on your fit and on your skills. At exhummer 1 the Mack will be close to the Hulk, even fit for max yield. This is due to the Mack being able to fit 3 MLU II's @ 9% each compared to the Hulks 2. Where the Hulk gets the advantage is its hull bonus of 3% per level of mining barge, and 3% per level of exhumers. all the other bonuses are the same. The base hull bonuses give each ship a base equal to 3 strip miners. 1x200% for the procurewr/skiff, 2x50% for the retriever/mack, and 3 strips for the covetor/Hulk. All the other bonuses from implants, fleet boosts, mining skills, crystals, etc. are the same for all ships.
lets consider max yield fits to show the maximum difference.
At Exhummers 1 the Hulk gets (3x5)=15% for mining barge 5 plus 1x3=3% for exhumers 1, plus 9x2=18% for 2 MLU II's = 36%, While the Mack gets 1x1=1% for exhumers 1 plus 3x9=27% for 3 MLU II's =28% only an 8% difference, which gets much smaller as you trade yield for tank.
but at exhummers 4 the Hulk gets a total hull bonus of (3x5)+(3x4)= 27% + 2x9=18% for the MLU's = 45% boost over the base which is the same for all exhummers. While the mack gets only 1% per level of exhummers 1x4=4%+ 3x9=27% for the MLU's =31% over the base boosts. a 14% difference, which gets bigger as you trade yield for tank.
As you can see the Hulk is no longer King of the hill, just has the highest yield, but no longer by a huge margin.
However when it comes to ICE mining the Hulk hull bonuses are much weaker. allowing the Mack to out mine the Hulk at lower skill levels. The Hulk does not pass the mack until exhummers 3 if both are fit for max yield.
Both the HULK and the MACK can be fit for max yield and still fit a 20k ehp tank, closer to 30k ehp if tanked specific for thermal/kenetic. That is enough to survive a single Talos or 3-4 catalysts depending on how they are fit. At the very least the gankers will not make a profit off you.
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Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
180
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Posted - 2013.08.06 19:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Where you mine makes all the difference.
Gankers look for hulks.
The get the most on the kill board with the least amount of effort.
If you don't have an orca with a shield transporter with your hulk don't even bother.
If you mine 0.5-0.6 with a hulk you will lose isk per hour compared to a mackinaw just due to the extra gank cost.
Hulks are mostly null sec fleet miners again.
If you are in high sec you might as well have a max yield retriever and care far less when the ship gets popped.
If you tank a mack you can pull 45k health and have just over 1000 m3 per min on just the lasers.
A hulk tanks out around 24k. (( This is why they are such big gank targets in high sec now. ))
Hulk tanked out gets about 1300 m3 per min on just the lasers.
Yield maxed retriever gets 1275 m3 per min on just the lasers and you'd have to get ganked 8 times to see the isk loss of a hulk. (( If insured will be well over 10x )) Who cares about it's 10k tank when it's a waste of time for a destroyer to attack it. (( Not worth the standings loss/grind ))
If you mine in 0.5 with orca don't under estimate what a max yield skiff can do.
1228 m3 a min with just the lasers and a big 78k tank.
Things to keep in mind is less mining lasers the ship has the faster the roid(s) they are on go away.
So afk mining in a skiff with one laser sucks in 1.0
Retriever 1.0-0.9 Use them mining drones.
Mack 0.8-0.7 Use those mining drones and have some lights for the rats.
Skiff 0.5-0.6 Enjoy the big roids with that single laser and use them mining drones.
Once you hit low sec is when the ship is more based on the corp fleets and the relative safety of the space you are in.
You can take the mack into 0.5-0.6 and do rather well most of the time but you will be next on the list after the hulks for the gankers. Make it a nice relatively quiet area only. Being near trade hubs in a 0.5 is a good way to see a wave of destroyers on you. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3820
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Posted - 2013.08.07 00:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:If they are going to gank you they are going to gank you.
I've never understood this mindset.
An untanked Hulk will be ganked with a probability P1/hr.
A more heavily tanked Hulk will be ganked with probability P2/hr, where P2 is less than P1.
A Skiff will be ganked with a probability P3/hr, where P3 is far less than P2.
Saying "If they're going to gank you they are going to gank you" is, of course, tautologically true, but it misses the point that you can do lots of things to change the value of that "If."
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
2038
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Posted - 2013.08.07 04:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Still piloting the first Hulk I purchased over 4 years ago.
I often think I'm the only person in EVE that gives mining more attention than combat. I've fallen asleep during combat, but never while mining. |
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
30629
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Posted - 2013.08.07 12:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Some people are so overly paranoid about being blowed-up they nerf their profits for years through over-analysis and tanking that ultimately are useless and futile anyway. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3837
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Posted - 2013.08.07 14:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Some people are so overly paranoid about being blowed-up they nerf their profits for years through over-analysis and tanking that ultimately are useless and futile anyway.
And I'm asking on what basis do you believe that tanking Exhumers is futile? In other words, why do you believe P2=P1?
If you're just saying that the costs of tanking outweigh the benefits, that's certainly defensible, and I can't make an argument either way on that claim.
But saying that tank has no effect on the probability of being ganked seems to be an extraordinary claim.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
766
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Posted - 2013.08.07 14:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Some people are so overly paranoid about being blowed-up they nerf their profits for years through over-analysis and tanking that ultimately are useless and futile anyway. And I'm asking on what basis do you believe that tanking Exhumers is futile? In other words, why do you believe P2=P1? If you're just saying that the costs of tanking outweigh the benefits, that's certainly defensible, and I can't make an argument either way on that claim. But saying that tank has no effect on the probability of being ganked seems to be an extraordinary claim.
So a dead space fit HULK with 100k ehp does not have an equal chance of getting ganked as a max yield fit HULK.? I guess I can believe that, after all the multi-billion isk HULK is a much more attractive target, even if it takes more ships to kill.
The only way to survive a GOON gank fleet is to pay attention, and bug out before they target you. Tank really has very little effect. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
30694
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Posted - 2013.08.07 14:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
The only way to survive a GOON gank fleet is to pay attention, and bug out before they target you. Tank really has very little effect.
The God's Truth |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
30694
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 14:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
And I'm asking on what basis do you believe that tanking Exhumers is futile? In other words, why do you believe P2=P1?
I did WHAT ?? Not much to do with Hulk Ganking there........ |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3838
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 15:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
So a dead space fit HULK with 100k ehp does not have an equal chance of getting ganked as a max yield fit HULK.? I guess I can believe that, after all the multi-billion isk HULK is a much more attractive target, even if it takes more ships to kill.
Since when does the phrase "more heavily tanked" mean "deadspace fit"?
Are you claiming that a Hulk with 10k EHP is no more likely to be ganked than one with 38k EHP that drops very similar loot value?
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
And I'm asking on what basis do you believe that tanking Exhumers is futile? In other words, why do you believe P2=P1?
I did WHAT ?? Not much to do with Hulk Ganking there........
As presented in the post above, in any given hour, P1=Probability of an Untanked Hulk being ganked, P2=Probability of a Tanked Hulk being ganked.
Are you trying to say that that tanking is futile (i.e. P1=P2) or that the difference in yield is more valuable than the difference in risk (probability*loss value)?
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
30741
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 15:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
So a dead space fit HULK with 100k ehp does not have an equal chance of getting ganked as a max yield fit HULK.? I guess I can believe that, after all the multi-billion isk HULK is a much more attractive target, even if it takes more ships to kill.
Since when does the phrase "more heavily tanked" mean "deadspace fit"? Are you claiming that a Hulk with 10k EHP is no more likely to be ganked than one with 38k EHP that drops very similar loot value? Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
And I'm asking on what basis do you believe that tanking Exhumers is futile? In other words, why do you believe P2=P1?
I did WHAT ?? Not much to do with Hulk Ganking there........ As presented in the post above, in any given hour, P1=Probability of an Untanked Hulk being ganked, P2=Probability of a Tanked Hulk being ganked. Are you trying to say that that tanking is futile (i.e. P1=P2) or that the difference in yield is more valuable than the difference in risk (probability*loss value)?
I repeat: If they are going to gank you they are going to gank you, and they will make sure they will gank you.
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1784
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Posted - 2013.08.07 15:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:I repeat: If they are going to gank you they are going to gank you, and they will make sure they will gank you.
If you're a lone miner (or have done something to **** off the gankers), then this holds.
If it's just a ganker looking for a miner to make explode, and there are plenty of untanked miners around you, a tank makes you /less/ likely to be ganked.
Picking off the weak and the lame.
Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :)
Handy tools and an SDE conversion
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3838
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 16:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:I repeat: If they are going to gank you they are going to gank you, and they will make sure they will gank you.
And, like I said, that is true. Tautologically so.
The question is whether you, as a miner, can affect the likelihood of being picked by fitting a tank. You're skipping ahead a step in the discussion to after you've been selected as a target.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Bronco Platz
Intercosmic Fruit Company
12
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Posted - 2013.08.07 16:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
But, if I fit an expensive and really good tank on my hulk to, isn-¦t then the Chance bigger to get ganked because of the expensive fit? |
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Styth spiting
Ion Corp.
NightSong Directorate
324
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Posted - 2013.08.07 17:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:Oh no not another one of these posts. One of my associates has started using a Mackinaw instead of a Hulk to mine ore because his Hulk was lost to a four Catalyst team but also because the Mackinaw has a far better tank. I won't list the full fittings but with the 5% yield hardwiring fitted which of the following would give more yield? Hulk: MLU II x 1. Running with Scordite T2 mining crystals Mackinaw: MLU II x 1. Running with Scordite T2 mining crystals MLU I x 1. It seemed to me at a glance that with the above fittings the Mackinaw was giving better a yield. If this is the case, which it probably isn't, then it would mean the Hulk is now a joke ship and has been rendered useless by CCP's ship 'rebalancing' program. I'm not personally in favour of any of the 'rebalancing' done so far so I'm somewhat biased regarding this situation. Nevertheless if someone would be kind enough to do the math and settle this one I would be grateful. PS This is not a troll. I am genuinely interested.
Removing MLU's from a ship will decrease its yield to hardly more then that of most of the T1 versions. Hulk with Exhumers IV gets 12%, Exhumbers V is 15%. Removing a MLUII drops these down to 3% and 6% over the T1 ships. So you end up in a sub par yielding expensive ship that will still in most cases not survive a gank attempt if you're not watching local.
If you want tank use the mining ships built for tank fitted for max yield. Their yields will be nearly as good as a high yield ship fitted for tank but at x7 the cost. Removing max yield off the high yield ships will just leave you with an expensive high yield ship with a low yield.
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Sabriz Adoudel
The Scope
626
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Posted - 2013.08.08 02:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
So a dead space fit HULK with 100k ehp does not have an equal chance of getting ganked as a max yield fit HULK.? I guess I can believe that, after all the multi-billion isk HULK is a much more attractive target, even if it takes more ships to kill.
The only way to survive a GOON gank fleet is to pay attention, and bug out before they target you. Tank really has very little effect.
One, most miner disposal professionals are not Goons. There is some overlap, but the Goons are a minority.
Two, while putting deadspace on a Hulk will indeed increase your chances of being ganked, two tech 2 +%resist modules (an Adaptive Invulnerability Field and a Damage Control) will dramatically decrease the number of miner disposal professionals that can solo gank you. Group ganks usually provide enough warning that a dilligent pilot should never fall for them.
An enemy is just a friend that you stab in the front. |
Andrew Indy
Four Pillar Production
Headshot Gaming
15
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Posted - 2013.08.08 06:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
I guess it depends on wether the Gankers ship scan people before doing the gank. If they do they will most likely target max yield ships otherwise they will mostly just bring enough ships to kill you no matter than tank (I have see 6 Cats per Mack which is pretty over kill)
I have a decent tank on my Mack but not at the expense of yield. |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
40
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Posted - 2013.08.11 09:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:
Also, if you're fitting MLU, you're doing it wrong. Reduce the yield, increase the survivability. Or, work out how long you'd have to mine with your extra yield in order to replace the cost of your ship. If it's a long time, don't bother with the MLU. I haven't fitted one for ages.
I have never not fit 2 on each Hulk in 3 years and have never lost a Hulk. A Mack yes, but a Hulk no. But Mack, Hulk, it matters not. If they are going to gank you they are going to gank you.
I partially agree with you. Not sure on fitting two MLU to a Hulk though.
The most dangerous tactic of suicide gankers is to send a non-ganking char into a set of asteroid belts in a Venture or Noctis. Especially with a Venture if they leave your belt after a minute or so it may appear that they are leaving because you are mining that belt and they are polite. Alternatively the Venture has just bookmarked a rock near your ship and you are entering **** creek without a paddle. On these occasions try to remember the pilots name of the Venture for future knowledge. |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
40
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Posted - 2013.08.11 10:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
Bronco Platz wrote:But, if I fit an expensive and really good tank on my hulk to, isn-¦t then the Chance bigger to get ganked because of the expensive fit?
I don't think it's very wise to use Deadspace or other expensive tanking modules on your mining vessel as this makes you more attractive to gankers.
With an MLU II and some tank on a Hulk it will be about 22k ehp roughly.
With an MLU II plus an MLU I and some tank on a Mackinaw it will be about 28k ehp roughly.
With an opportune single ganker you are probably going to survive the gank in the above scenarios.
Atm especially with less people on Tranquility due to summer holidays Krixtals comment that if 'they are want to gank you they will' holds true. They will bookmark near to you using a peaceful char & vessel, and maybe scan you as well. Then they will deploy enough catalysts to do the job. Once we get past summer holidays there will be less risk though. |
Dave Stark
3333
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Posted - 2013.08.11 10:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
Andrew Indy wrote:I have a decent tank on my Mack but not at the expense of yield.
this is the way to do it.
i sincerely doubt any one is getting ganked frequently enough to say "i make more isk using a DCU instead of an extra MLU"
especially if you're mining in a barge rather than an exhumer. |
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