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Veanna Lenn
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
0
   |
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
So after having last played in 2007, I decided to come back to EvE two weeks ago. Back in 2007 I lived in nullsec so you can imagine I'm not very educated on the markets.
As I was trying to get my bearings, I saw a Tag contract for half a billion. The contract had two tags in it. Normally I laugh at contracts and realize that most of them are scams anyway, but this time I was bored and buzzed from alcohol so I just right clicked to check market details, for fun (why the heck not).
I saw that there were TONS of sell orders for 600 mil. MULTIPLE buy orders for ~500 mil. I was extremely confused. This contract had TWO tags for 500 mil! I spent several minutes, not even kidding, just COUNTING the number of digits in the buy order to make sure it was 500 mil and not something else. Being buzzed didn't help with the counting.
After determining it is indeed 500 mil, I then decided to check what the hell this item is, and why it is so expensive. I googled it and saw it is an officer tag. +1 for legit. I then logged in on my alt in a different empire region. That region ALSO had buy and sell orders for ~500 mil. +1 for legit. I was now convinced each tag did indeed cost 500 mil. Why? Well, I remembered reading patch notes and remembred something about tags for sec status, which is why I figured these items were so valuable.
I bought the contract. Try to sell it... BOOM, can't, minimum quantity is 6! I am undeterred. Flying around, I find two more contracts for 500 mil each having 2 more tags. I figure these are leftover from before the patch that made them jump in value. I buy them.
Try to fill the order with my 6 tags. it vanishes. I then google the tag's name, and then add "exploit" at the end, figuring it was some sort of an exploit. I am finally taken to a forum page where Margin Trading Scam is discussed. Alas, I wish I saw that page earlier.
Lesson: Don't drink and fly EvE |
Seetesh
ENEBRIATED MINERS Ltd
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Common scam always check the minimum buy amount. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
1442
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
That it was in contracts was your first indication that it was a scam. You nailed it as such.
That it was in contracts and could be bought/sold on the market was the second indication that it was a scam. You missed that point completely.
That it was in contracts, could be bought/sold on the market and was "too good to be true" should have been the final indicator that it was a scam. You missed that point as well.
Don't drink and think. It's bad, mmmm'kay?
HTFU!...for the children! |
Zappity
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
277
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lesson: Don't drink and fly EvE
Correct, at least for the markets. My best effort is 2b down by adjusting a big stack of orders to 600 instead of 600k. Oh well, it's only isk...
Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
William Walker
House Aratus
Fatal Ascension
232
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
It's a scam if it's explicitly indicated in the market window? I guess we are in SCAM online.
pâ+(*GîÆGêçGîÆ*)n+ë pü+(pé£GêçpÇü-¦)pü+ (GùòGÇ+GùòG£+) |
Cebraio
4S Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
315
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
If it's too good to be true, it's a scam. Lesson learned. Carry on. |
Veanna Lenn
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:That it was in contracts was your first indication that it was a scam. You nailed it as such.
That it was in contracts and could be bought/sold on the market was the second indication that it was a scam. You missed that point completely.
That it was in contracts, could be bought/sold on the market and was "too good to be true" should have been the final indicator that it was a scam. You missed that point as well.
Don't drink and think. It's bad, mmmm'kay?
True. However, as I last played a while ago, the one thing I remembered about EvE and the very rudimentary 0.0 markets back then, is that if there was a buy order, and I had items, I could fill it no problem. Never had a problem filling a buy order.
So here, granted I failboated on the min order quantity, but after that I escalated my mistake by thinking "well, if I get 6 of them, I will be able to fill the buy order like ive done thousands of times before". When the order vanished upon trying to fill it, I realized my mistake. Illusionary, unfillable, buy orders.... I guess its a reminder that with EvE you can't ever start to feel comfortable, or it'l get you. |
Mocam
EVE University
Ivy League
289
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Wrong forum. Crime & Punishment, Market Discussions... Ok but GD?
As for your post - yes this uses a poorly implemented game mechanic. Yes it's been discussed before repeatedly and I imagine CCP will "eventually" get around to addressing the problem.
IMO - treat margin trading like flying a T3 - if the order collapses due to insufficient funds, they lose a skill level and must retrain it. |
Azurae
South West Trading
100
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
just check the market history of items and then you'll see if its a margin trading scam or not. you won't even have to check other regions that way ^^
btw there are sometimes cheap navy slicers for sale in contracts, just gotta be quick enough to get one. check jita for those |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
3960
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Azurae wrote:btw there are sometimes cheap navy slicers for sale in contracts, just gotta be quick enough to get one. check jita for those
It's funny how the first two sell so quickly, guess that is why the seller was in a hurry to post the third contract and mistyped the number of zeroes.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Azurae
South West Trading
100
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 12:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Azurae wrote:btw there are sometimes cheap navy slicers for sale in contracts, just gotta be quick enough to get one. check jita for those It's funny how the first two sell so quickly, guess that is why the seller was in a hurry to post the third contract and mistyped the number of zeroes.
as i said he has to be fast. obviously the 1 mill slicers are gone within seconds (and no, not by alts... at least not my slicers; can't speak for the copycats though ^^) |
embrel
BamBam Inc.
30
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 13:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mocam wrote:
IMO - treat margin trading like flying a T3 - if the order collapses due to insufficient funds, they lose a skill level and must retrain it.
NO!
I don't have the liquidity should all my buy orders be executed at the same time. And none of them is a scam.
the meaning of margin trading is exactly that you can do that. It's not done because of scams, but to ensure sufficient liquidity is in the market. Otherwise you'd have simply far less buy orders in the market, which hurts far more people than a scam. A scam hurts actually no one. It's just an expensive lesson for on side of this special kind of transaction. |
Reckless Ourtomineng
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 13:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Wrong forum. Crime & Punishment, Market Discussions... Ok but GD?
As for your post - yes this uses a poorly implemented game mechanic. Yes it's been discussed before repeatedly and I imagine CCP will "eventually" get around to addressing the problem.
IMO - treat margin trading like flying a T3 - if the order collapses due to insufficient funds, they lose a skill level and must retrain it.
What's the Point of having GD, just remove it, if there is a proper place for every thread,
General discussion allows any discussion about eve.
Sometime I feel GD is only for who post something that doesn't put eve in a bad light, even if,
there is plenty of bad stuff going on to talk about, hiding it won't solve the problem,
there always been good and bad times, but is only when facing the bad things that we'll move on. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3871
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 13:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mocam wrote:As for your post - yes this uses a poorly implemented game mechanic. Yes it's been discussed before repeatedly and I imagine CCP will "eventually" get around to addressing the problem.
What problem? If there's insufficient ISK to cover the transaction, you are left in the exact same position you were in before you tried to sell your items.
The scam is over when you buy the overpriced good. You can avoid doing this by pressing one button. If you can't be bothered to figure out the real value of the items you choose to invest in, how can you be surprised when you lose money?
Quote:IMO - treat margin trading like flying a T3 - if the order collapses due to insufficient funds, they lose a skill level and must retrain it.
Why should someone be punished for not being able to perfectly predict their future liquidity?
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Whitehound
1820
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 14:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
Awesome story. Tell us another one!!
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Andrea Griffin
663
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 14:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mocam wrote:IMO - treat margin trading like flying a T3 - if the order collapses due to insufficient funds, they lose a skill level and must retrain it. I'd rather have all buy orders that cannot be covered by the current wallet amount be removed from the market automatically. Using Margin Trading to scam is a clever use of the mechanic, but I don't know if it really adds much gameplay to Eve other than screwing new people who don't know about it.
CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
3285
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 14:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Another victim of the EVE market IQ test.
+1 for not calling it an exploit.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
embrel
BamBam Inc.
30
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 14:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:I'd rather have all buy orders that cannot be covered by the current wallet amount be removed from the market automatically.
and which one would that be?
e.g. 10 open buy orders at 100M each, available liquidity 800M.
Now, which order would you like to see cancelled?
In the above example you can assume that usually the 800M will be sufficient for these open orders. You just drain the market of liquidity cancelling uncovered orders. And why? In order to protect people from their own greed? |
Manhim
Cyan Ventures
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 15:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
While I agree that it's currently a part of Eve's mechanics, I think that something should be done to at least deter these kind of scams, like adding a "Warning, this price is 9001% over average market prices", kinda like when you are buying or selling an item on the market.
It wouldn't prevent these scams completely, but at least it would be something, plus it already exists.
Another thing would be to add an option to hide buy orders who have an higher minimum amount then 1, can be useful when selling a single item to buy orders.
And probably useful: If the buyer doesn't have the money to complete this buy order right now it should be shown in red and be filterable or it should be able to put your wallet into the negatives as you'd have a debt towards the broker, cause I think that not being able to pay for what you owe should be on the shoulders of the seller and not the buyer.
Moar filters. |
embrel
BamBam Inc.
30
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 15:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Manhim wrote: or it should be able to put your wallet into the negatives as you'd have a debt towards the broker, cause I think that not being able to pay for what you owe should be on the shoulders of the seller and not the buyer.
as it was pointed out before, this would be an infinite ISK-generation machine. Creat alt, place uncovered buy order, sell to alt, biomass indebted alt... |
Manhim
Cyan Ventures
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
embrel wrote:Manhim wrote: or it should be able to put your wallet into the negatives as you'd have a debt towards the broker, cause I think that not being able to pay for what you owe should be on the shoulders of the seller and not the buyer.
as it was pointed out before, this would be an infinite ISK-generation machine. Creat alt, place uncovered buy order, sell to alt, biomass indebted alt...
Then remove that skill altogether. While I understand the concept beneath it I don't get why a broker would accept to buy something for you while you don't even have the money to pay for it.
I had though about making the rest to cover never higher then the profits that could be made from sell orders, although someone could simply put a sell order for a very high price and it would be circumvented. The alternative would be to use the sell orders average value.
EDIT: The player would get into the negatives, and the sell orders would be "Locked" from being canceled or sold for lower then the average value. |
Captain Gingerbeer
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
embrel wrote: A scam hurts actually no one. It's just an expensive lesson for on side of this special kind of transaction.
I'm fairly sure that was the Enron defence too.  |
embrel
BamBam Inc.
30
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Manhim wrote:
Then remove that skill altogether. While I understand the concept beneath it I don't get why a broker would accept to buy something for you while you don't even have the money to pay for it.
Even in real stock trading - depending on how you do it - there is the possibility to have orders that are not fully covered. In one tool I used you set up orders and further orders would be cancelled (after some have been executed) should your margin no longer cover them.
Further, I'd assume the skill to be quite important for the Eve economy. If all traders can only set up buy orders in maximum of their current liquidity, there just would be far less of these orders, making it far harder for a seller to sell his stock.
So what you're proposing is to make live harder for many in order to protect some few from a lesson they might be better off learning in Eve than elsewhere. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3872
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
Manhim wrote:Then remove that skill altogether. While I understand the concept beneath it I don't get why a broker would accept to buy something for you while you don't even have the money to pay for it.
Because that's not what the broker is doing. The broker is placing an offer to buy at a certain price. The broker never buys anything for you until he completes the escrow (otherwise, you'd be out your items when you sold to a margin order).
And, of course, how is anyone trying to sell hurt by a failing buy order? They're left in the exact same position they were before trying to sell to that order.
Quote:I had though about making the rest to cover never higher then the profits that could be made from sell orders, although someone could simply put a sell order for a very high price and it would be circumvented. The alternative would be to use the sell orders average value.
Wat?
Quote:EDIT: The player would get into the negatives, and the sell orders would be "Locked" from being canceled or sold for lower then the average value.
Any mechanic by which a player can force another player into the negatives and pocket the resulting ISK is an immediate gamebreaker.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Manhim
Cyan Ventures
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
embrel wrote:Manhim wrote:
Then remove that skill altogether. While I understand the concept beneath it I don't get why a broker would accept to buy something for you while you don't even have the money to pay for it.
Even in real stock trading - depending on how you do it - there is the possibility to have orders that are not fully covered. In one tool I used you set up orders and further orders would be cancelled (after some have been executed) should your margin no longer cover them. Further, I'd assume the skill to be quite important for the Eve economy. If all traders can only set up buy orders in maximum of their current liquidity, there just would be far less of these orders, making it far harder for a seller to sell his stock. So what you're proposing is to make live harder for many in order to protect some few from a lesson they might be better off learning in Eve than elsewhere.
I don't think that it changes that much in the economy that you place buy orders for higher then you can afford other then pissing off sellers that are trying to sell their stuff. Plus it just inflates the real money value placed in buy orders without any real effects on the economy.
You are also comparing an highly regulated market against one with absolutely no rules or regulations.
I don't think that it would make my life harder to wait to have the money to buy something to actually buy it rather then seeing my buy order disappearing with no notices of it in a bunch of hundreds of buy orders then trying to find which one got cancelled by comparing my inventory to my expected inventory. |
Manhim
Cyan Ventures
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
Any mechanic by which a player can force another player into the negatives and pocket the resulting ISK is an immediate gamebreaker.
How are you forcing someone to go in the negatives? You'd put yourself in it and it would be your problem. |
Spurty
939
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
Manhim wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
Any mechanic by which a player can force another player into the negatives and pocket the resulting ISK is an immediate gamebreaker.
How are you forcing someone to go in the negatives? You'd put yourself in it and it would be your problem.
because the 'YOU' in this scenario is a burner alt.
There, said it without resorting to sounding like a 5 year old. If I can do it, you can too Peers!
---
GÇ£If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.GÇ¥
GÇò Philip K. **** |
Manhim
Cyan Ventures
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:34:00 -
[28] - Quote
Spurty wrote:Manhim wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
Any mechanic by which a player can force another player into the negatives and pocket the resulting ISK is an immediate gamebreaker.
How are you forcing someone to go in the negatives? You'd put yourself in it and it would be your problem. because the 'YOU' in this scenario is a burner alt. There, said it without resorting to sounding like a 5 year old. If I can do it, you can too Peers!
This is a personal attack btw while I never resorted to such nor anyone in this conversation.
Please read what I wrote entirely, I was talking about sell orders obligated to be in place to be able to place a buy order with the sell order's average value serving as margin for the broker. In the case you'd go into the negatives, you'd wouldn't be able to cancel the sell order or change it's sell value for lower then the average.
I know that it's a stupid idea, but it's less stupid then trying to buy stuff with money that doesn't exists. |
embrel
BamBam Inc.
31
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
Manhim wrote:[quote=embrel]
I don't think that it changes that much in the economy that you place buy orders for higher then you can afford
Btw, something that I started seeing:
- Place buy order with no margin available at 20% price from sell to buy
- Wait until someone place his sell order at the same price
- Rinse, repeat until you brought the market down
- Buy stuff
- Wait until the market steps back up
- Sell stuff
- ...
- Profits.
I am not placing orders for something I can not afford. I place just lots of orders and am sure that not all of them will be executed at the same time. All of them at the same time would be higher than my liq, most of them at the same time I could cover. If I place less orders I get less orders executed reducing my trading activity. If all traders place less orders there are far less buy orders meaning you will always have to wait till someone buys your sell order as there will simply not be enough buy orders for you to sell at a reasonable price.
If I understand your proposal you're welcome to try. In general you'll notice that a) you'll be only the highest bidder at 20% from sell order price in very illiquid assets b) you'll hardly ever get an executed buy order. Together this leads to: not enough profits.
I dare to say that your scheme would only work if margin trading skill was removed. |
embrel
BamBam Inc.
31
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
Manhim wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
Any mechanic by which a player can force another player into the negatives and pocket the resulting ISK is an immediate gamebreaker.
How are you forcing someone to go in the negatives? You'd put yourself in it and it would be your problem.
It just would not be a problem but profit.
Just kill the alt with the negative account. You say that alt's with negative accounts can't be biomassed. Well, then have an account with three alt's going negative and cancel the account afterwards. |
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