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Lost 1.5 billion on Margin Trading Scam

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
embrel BamBam Inc. 30	Posted - 2013.08.14 13:07:00 - [1] - Quote Mocam wrote: IMO - treat margin trading like flying a T3 - if the order collapses due to insufficient funds, they lose a skill level and must retrain it. NO! I don't have the liquidity should all my buy orders be executed at the same time. And none of them is a scam. the meaning of margin trading is exactly that you can do that. It's not done because of scams, but to ensure sufficient liquidity is in the market. Otherwise you'd have simply far less buy orders in the market, which hurts far more people than a scam. A scam hurts actually no one. It's just an expensive lesson for on side of this special kind of transaction.
embrel BamBam Inc. 30	Posted - 2013.08.14 14:59:00 - [2] - Quote Andrea Griffin wrote: I'd rather have all buy orders that cannot be covered by the current wallet amount be removed from the market automatically. and which one would that be? e.g. 10 open buy orders at 100M each, available liquidity 800M. Now, which order would you like to see cancelled? In the above example you can assume that usually the 800M will be sufficient for these open orders. You just drain the market of liquidity cancelling uncovered orders. And why? In order to protect people from their own greed?
embrel BamBam Inc. 30	Posted - 2013.08.14 15:25:00 - [3] - Quote Manhim wrote: or it should be able to put your wallet into the negatives as you'd have a debt towards the broker, cause I think that not being able to pay for what you owe should be on the shoulders of the seller and not the buyer. as it was pointed out before, this would be an infinite ISK-generation machine. Creat alt, place uncovered buy order, sell to alt, biomass indebted alt...
embrel BamBam Inc. 30	Posted - 2013.08.14 16:16:00 - [4] - Quote Manhim wrote: Then remove that skill altogether. While I understand the concept beneath it I don't get why a broker would accept to buy something for you while you don't even have the money to pay for it. Even in real stock trading - depending on how you do it - there is the possibility to have orders that are not fully covered. In one tool I used you set up orders and further orders would be cancelled (after some have been executed) should your margin no longer cover them. Further, I'd assume the skill to be quite important for the Eve economy. If all traders can only set up buy orders in maximum of their current liquidity, there just would be far less of these orders, making it far harder for a seller to sell his stock. So what you're proposing is to make live harder for many in order to protect some few from a lesson they might be better off learning in Eve than elsewhere.
embrel BamBam Inc. 31	Posted - 2013.08.14 16:40:00 - [5] - Quote Manhim wrote: [quote=embrel] I don't think that it changes that much in the economy that you place buy orders for higher then you can afford Btw, something that I started seeing: - Place buy order with no margin available at 20% price from sell to buy - Wait until someone place his sell order at the same price - Rinse, repeat until you brought the market down - Buy stuff - Wait until the market steps back up - Sell stuff - ... - Profits. I am not placing orders for something I can not afford. I place just lots of orders and am sure that not all of them will be executed at the same time. All of them at the same time would be higher than my liq, most of them at the same time I could cover. If I place less orders I get less orders executed reducing my trading activity. If all traders place less orders there are far less buy orders meaning you will always have to wait till someone buys your sell order as there will simply not be enough buy orders for you to sell at a reasonable price. If I understand your proposal you're welcome to try. In general you'll notice that a) you'll be only the highest bidder at 20% from sell order price in very illiquid assets b) you'll hardly ever get an executed buy order. Together this leads to: not enough profits. I dare to say that your scheme would only work if margin trading skill was removed.
embrel BamBam Inc. 31	Posted - 2013.08.14 16:43:00 - [6] - Quote Manhim wrote: RubyPorto wrote: Any mechanic by which a player can force another player into the negatives and pocket the resulting ISK is an immediate gamebreaker. How are you forcing someone to go in the negatives? You'd put yourself in it and it would be your problem. It just would not be a problem but profit. Just kill the alt with the negative account. You say that alt's with negative accounts can't be biomassed. Well, then have an account with three alt's going negative and cancel the account afterwards.
embrel BamBam Inc. 31	Posted - 2013.08.14 16:49:00 - [7] - Quote Captain Gingerbeer wrote: I'm fairly sure that was the Enron defence too. there's a difference between fraud and a scam (at least in my understanding) The nice nigerian emails from the widow of late Abacha... is a scam. Whoever falls for it learns an important lesson. Enron was fraud. Far harder to realize.
embrel BamBam Inc. 32	Posted - 2013.08.15 09:43:00 - [8] - Quote Alicia Aishai wrote: it is used by some to manipulate prices of certain items. How? or do you mean in the scam-cases? the skill is beneficial to the market as there are more open buy orders in the market. And they won't fail due to insufficient funds in 99.X% of the cases. At least this to date never happened with my orders (and I do have open buy orders that exceed my liquidity). Why fix something that isn't broke? Why fix this kind of scam and leave others? e.g. the "Hookbill for only X"-scam where there are three contracts of which 2 are no longer valid and the last one's the scam. Would you like to have a price check there too? If so, why? Why do you need to take away individual responsibility and hand it to the hold-hands system? The hookbill scam depends on people not looking at the amount in the contract. This is always a rather stupid thing to do. And what makes the margin scam different from a recruitment scam or grrr-goons latest renting scam? The margin scam depends on people buying something at excessive prices. All the tools needed to see that this is a scam are there. Otherwise far more people would fall for it. But most don't.
embrel BamBam Inc. 32	Posted - 2013.08.15 10:23:00 - [9] - Quote Dorrann wrote: If you place a buy order, the value of that order could be removed from your wallet and placed in holding until the order is filled or expires. Problem Solved. If you cant pay, you cant place the order. LoopHole Closed. basically making the skill margin trading useless.
embrel BamBam Inc. 32	Posted - 2013.08.15 10:32:00 - [10] - Quote Alicia Aishai wrote: embrel wrote: Alicia Aishai wrote: it is used by some to manipulate prices of certain items. How? or do you mean in the scam-cases? How? By putting a large buy order close to the sell orders giving false impression the item is in demand. This is not aimed to be a scam but manipulate the perception of supply and demand for the asset. I have seen it done, believe it or not. I don't see why my proposal to add an option to check if an order if funded or not (example 2 above) can be controversial except if you are a scammer or a price manipulator. the false impression issue can easily be solved by checking the market history which is already there. Also, there are external tools that might help to assess whether something is traded at different prices in other regions. I guess this proposal could be implemented. I just don't get the why of it. I would assume that newbs don't have the means to fall for the many of these margin-scams. Or they have bought Plex... in which case I have to smile a bit. And if non-newbs fall for scams, again, I do have a tiny smile. Your proposal is controversial also to non-scammers as it would imply that scamming is something that needs to be limited. My question remains why you would technically limit margin-scams and not prosecute other forms of scam. And I for one think that it is a nice feature of eve that scamming is allowed. Scamming fits the general atmosphere of Eve.
embrel BamBam Inc. 32	Posted - 2013.08.15 10:56:00 - [11] - Quote Alicia Aishai wrote: [quote=embrel] Personally, I wouldn't care much about scamming if it didn't mean spamming of local. well, spamming's the part I don't like either. This is why I'm looking forward to Eve-in-stations where you hopefully will be able to gank spammers.

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