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Alex Etolle
Shadowfire Exploration and Security Rura-Penthe
9
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Posted - 2013.08.14 18:31:00 -
[31] - Quote
Steffanie has a point. While the Amarr, unlike most slavers, enslave people as their way of introducing them to their faith, they probably would not stop with the Minmatar or even the federation. Religion is a very powerful driving force. However at least they are willing to free their slaves at some point as shown by Jamyl freeing all those minmatar slaves. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
518
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Posted - 2013.08.14 18:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
Alex Etolle wrote:Steffanie has a point. While the Amarr, unlike most slavers, enslave people as their way of introducing them to their faith, they probably would not stop with the Minmatar or even the federation. Religion is a very powerful driving force. However at least they are willing to free their slaves at some point as shown by Jamyl freeing all those minmatar slaves. Do you know, why from all four major nations in our cluster through the history only Caldari never developed or participated in the slavery? |
Alex Etolle
Shadowfire Exploration and Security Rura-Penthe
9
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Posted - 2013.08.14 18:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
I think I knew at some point, but unfortunately, at the moment it escapes me why exactly the Caldari haven't dealt with slavery. |
Cyrus Alabel
Penumbra Institute Catastrophic Uprising
34
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Posted - 2013.08.14 19:00:00 -
[34] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: Do you know, why from all four major nations in our cluster through the history only Caldari never developed or participated in the slavery?
As I recall, it's because the harsh environment of Caldari Prime was never really conducive to a non-working upper class, and thus everyone worked? Something along those lines? |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
519
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Posted - 2013.08.14 19:07:00 -
[35] - Quote
Alex Etolle wrote:I think I knew at some point, but unfortunately, at the moment it escapes me why exactly the Caldari haven't dealt with slavery. Caldari will prefer death to disgrace of submitting to an enemy. |
Alex Etolle
Shadowfire Exploration and Security Rura-Penthe
9
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Posted - 2013.08.14 19:15:00 -
[36] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Alex Etolle wrote:I think I knew at some point, but unfortunately, at the moment it escapes me why exactly the Caldari haven't dealt with slavery. Caldari will prefer death to disgrace of submitting to an enemy.
I can understand that and I respect that. Although it's a shame that one of your people pretty much has an ungodly amount of slaves and is causing incursions all over the cluster. We may have our differences Kim, but I would not wish being one of Sansha's puppets on anyone. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1438
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Posted - 2013.08.14 19:25:00 -
[37] - Quote
Cyrus Alabel wrote:Diana Kim wrote: Do you know, why from all four major nations in our cluster through the history only Caldari never developed or participated in the slavery?
As I recall, it's because the harsh environment of Caldari Prime was never really conducive to a non-working upper class, and thus everyone worked? Something along those lines?
Close. It does have something to do with the climate on Caldari Prime. Basically, most cultures go through a phase where it is considered acceptable to capture your enemies and then enslave them - usually to perform menial work as a lower-caste member of that society.
Caldari Prime wasn't always as habitable as it is now (!!) it used to be even worse. Basically it was very rare that a clan or band would be able to get through a winter without having to leave behind it's weakest members to starve/freeze to death. If slaves had been kept, then they would have been the first to be discarded and they would have been well aware of this fact.
Keeping slaves, in short, would have meant opening your camp to people who would be sharpening a knife for you - constantly! They'd never rest until they got free - and left with enough resources to start elsewhere. This would have meant an even worse winter for the slaver group. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1438
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Posted - 2013.08.14 19:26:00 -
[38] - Quote
Alex Etolle wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Alex Etolle wrote:I think I knew at some point, but unfortunately, at the moment it escapes me why exactly the Caldari haven't dealt with slavery. Caldari will prefer death to disgrace of submitting to an enemy. I can understand that and I respect that. Although it's a shame that one of your people pretty much has an ungodly amount of slaves and is causing incursions all over the cluster. We may have our differences Kim, but I would not wish being one of Sansha's puppets on anyone.
We could talk about the rogue drones that were supposed to be slaves of the Gallente that also raid everyone else, as well. |
Alex Etolle
Shadowfire Exploration and Security Rura-Penthe
9
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Posted - 2013.08.14 19:31:00 -
[39] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Alex Etolle wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Alex Etolle wrote:I think I knew at some point, but unfortunately, at the moment it escapes me why exactly the Caldari haven't dealt with slavery. Caldari will prefer death to disgrace of submitting to an enemy. I can understand that and I respect that. Although it's a shame that one of your people pretty much has an ungodly amount of slaves and is causing incursions all over the cluster. We may have our differences Kim, but I would not wish being one of Sansha's puppets on anyone. We could talk about the rogue drones that were supposed to be slaves of the Gallente that also raid everyone else, as well.
All right, I see your point. I've dealt with the things multiple times. I should not have brought Kuvakei up... |
Graelyn
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
474
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Posted - 2013.08.14 19:42:00 -
[40] - Quote
Sarumites have been saying this for a very long time, and so did Jamyl when she led the house.
Luckily, crowned heads are often the wiser. + Cardinal Graelyn + Owner/Operator, "The Summit" Amarr Loyalist of the Year --áYC113 |
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Rodj Blake
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1421
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Posted - 2013.08.14 21:20:00 -
[41] - Quote
The Republic is a shambles and although Shakor is a vicious tyrant he is also an incompetent fool who is dependent upon his Jovian masters for guidance
My personal view is that it's just a matter of time until the Republic falls apart in spectacular fashion, and when that happens the rest of the cluster (including many Minmatars) will be begging the Empire to step in and restore law and order.
Patience is all that is needed. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Esna Pitoojee
Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession
303
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Posted - 2013.08.14 21:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
I will also add my voice to those stating that not only is an invasion at this time a spectacularly bad idea, but I would propose that Merimeth is entirely aware that an invasion is a bad idea and is intending to use the expected denial for political gain.
I will be truly surprised if this foolish suggestion is given any honest consideration by the Throne; to open a second front - to energize, validate, and provide ammunition for all of those who spread lies about the Empire - while we already face regular assaults from Sansha's Nation, extranational terrorists, and other pirate affiliates is not a course of action I would personally advise, pursue, or even consider, except perhaps as fodder for comedy material. |
Kytre Aurgnet
Better Hide R Die EVE
12
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Posted - 2013.08.14 21:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
If the Empire does start an invasion, I would think they'd go after someone they can win against, or at least do a lot of damage to. Sure, they can go after the Republic again, being bitter enemies and all, but there is another empire that is a bit...weaker.
Starting a Reclaiming would, at the very least, break treaties they've set with CONCORD (and the other empires by extension)...who's to say they won't break one more treaty and go after the Caldari? They've just gotten rid of Heth, and can finally start to rebuild...but they've taken a lot of damage getting rid of him, and are probably in the worst position of the four, militarily.
I've been wondering, considering what's been going on, if there isn't something going on between the Federation and Empire; some back-door dealings and whatnot. That should the Republic go rogue completely, these two could ally to set it back in its place, if not eliminate it entirely. And is the relationship between the State and Empire as good as people say it is, or is it straining as well?
War between the Federation and Empire would no go well for anyone; the Empire would be attacked hard by the Republic for their long-standing hatred (whether they're still allied with the Federation or not), and if the Caldari can they'd try to take something from the Federation as well. But like its been said, CONCORD would probably move to stop the Empire if they are the aggressors (and Caldari if they try something), which leaves them with only the weakened State for allies. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
519
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Posted - 2013.08.14 22:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
Alex Etolle wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Alex Etolle wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Alex Etolle wrote:I think I knew at some point, but unfortunately, at the moment it escapes me why exactly the Caldari haven't dealt with slavery. Caldari will prefer death to disgrace of submitting to an enemy. I can understand that and I respect that. Although it's a shame that one of your people pretty much has an ungodly amount of slaves and is causing incursions all over the cluster. We may have our differences Kim, but I would not wish being one of Sansha's puppets on anyone. We could talk about the rogue drones that were supposed to be slaves of the Gallente that also raid everyone else, as well. All right, I see your point. I've dealt with the things multiple times. I should not have brought Kuvakei up... Kuvakei has betrayed the State. He prefered to build the nation of one man, where people act not according to their will, but according to his will. On one hand, it was built on Caldari idea, that everyone must work for the Nation instead of themselves. But it excluded the head of this nation, and in this case, the whole nation was one man. He was acting in his interests, rather than interests of his citizens. If they didn't agree with his program, they are turned into flesh drones, who forcedly act upon his will. And this is the gallentean ideal, when the man works for himself only. He built his own nation, bearing his own name. Without doubt only gallentean ideals could have corrupted him to create such monstrosity.
We don't need more Sanshas. And that's why the Federation must be destroyed. |
Zelarrs Elkoth
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
30
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Posted - 2013.08.14 22:47:00 -
[45] - Quote
Kytre Aurgnet wrote:If the Empire does start an invasion, I would think they'd go after someone they can win against, or at least do a lot of damage to. Sure, they can go after the Republic again, being bitter enemies and all, but there is another empire that is a bit...weaker.
Starting a Reclaiming would, at the very least, break treaties they've set with CONCORD (and the other empires by extension)...who's to say they won't break one more treaty and go after the Caldari?
Attack our long standing allies? Only other civilization capable of mature self-rule? I am sure you would love that, but it's not going to happen. Aside the fact that your estimation of weakness is far off by my eyes. Pure agit-prop anyway.
What is happening is the Crusade, reclaiming portions of Metropolis and Heimatar even as we speak. Started in response to Minmatar aggression, the invasion of Ammatar and attacks on CONCORD. Our righteous forces battle in space every day.
For those who wish to fight the chaos and anarchy that the so called Republic fosters... or defend the greatest civilization New Eden has ever known and spread it's virtues... this is the place to be.
How a full on invasion outside of the sanctioned "faction" war could even work in today's political milieu is beyond my ken, I'll leave that to the Noble Heir Merimeth Sarum to debate in the Privy Council, and follow my Empress in whatever she decides.
Until the day the Empress decrees a change, the Crusade is the place for warriors of this cause. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Commander, Head of Diplomacy, Recruiting Officer Contact on channel: "PIE Public" "I walk the razor's edge of embracing the future while protecting what we value of the past." |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1451
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Posted - 2013.08.14 23:02:00 -
[46] - Quote
Kytre Aurgnet wrote:If the Empire does start an invasion, I would think they'd go after someone they can win against, or at least do a lot of damage to. Sure, they can go after the Republic again, being bitter enemies and all, but there is another empire that is a bit...weaker.
Sweetie, I hate to break it to you but not only is the State Navy the strongest kiloton for kiloton (according to independent military experts) but if it isn't stronger than the Gallente Federal Navy, (which is reliably supposed to be the strongest in terms of force projection) it is the only one that could reliably be counted on to stop an offensive by it.
Whilst I would never think of making mock of the individual sailors and soldiers of the Republic Navy, the truth is that their equipment is shabbier, their training worse, their technology less powerful... In almost every metric that counts the Republic Navy is the weakest of the big four.
I could go on to speculate about political and infrastructure weaknesses within the Republic but, frankly, you already have a LOT of reading to do if you think the Caldari Navy is the weakest of the Empire Navies.
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Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
144
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Posted - 2013.08.15 00:42:00 -
[47] - Quote
It's sort of hard to fairly compare the Republic Fleet to any of the other Empires navies, I think, technology regardless, since their tactics are so fundementally different from the ground up. It's like trying to question who would win in a fight between a bear and a bird of prey; They simply don't fight in comparable enough manners for it to not become a pointless farce.
In fact, that they are the only ones to refer to their standing astral military as a "Fleet" instead of a "Navy" is actually quite telling, when you think about it. Since their doctrines are more inspired by classical aeronautical ones (Hit and runs, precision strikes on supplies and civilian targets behind enemy lines, avoidance of direct engagement, etc) rather then the vaguely classical naval ones practiced by everyone else. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1452
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Posted - 2013.08.15 00:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
Like it or not they have to perform the same roles in similar ways in given circumstances.
The brief was responding to an invasion by the Amarr fleet who would use massed formations and direct strikes at planetary and infrastructure targets.
To be honest, given how emotionally RepFleet command has responded in certain situations lately, I don't see them being able to ignore a planetary bombardment of, say, Pator. |
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
144
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Posted - 2013.08.15 01:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Like it or not they have to perform the same roles in similar ways in given circumstances.
The brief was responding to an invasion by the Amarr fleet who would use massed formations and direct strikes at planetary and infrastructure targets.
To be honest, given how emotionally RepFleet command has responded in certain situations lately, I don't see them being able to ignore a planetary bombardment of, say, Pator.
Hmm. Well, so long as we're delving into hypotheticals, Tuulinen-haan, I have to say that I wouldn't imagine they'd get that far - The Republic has the advantage of the majority of it's core systems being a decent ways in their territory, unlike the Federals. If the Amarr invaded and I were in their shoes, the very first thing I would do would be to shut down the entryways in the stargate network.
And while you might be right that defending their homeworld could be enough to spur them into irrational action, well... Unlike the Federation, the Republic has been shown to be quite good at abandoning sentimentality in the past when the going is sufficiently rough regarding things that are a little more minor. (Though as the Elder War showed, their not averse to embracing it when they have the chance, of course.) They'd most likely be willing to sacrifice a few border systems (and the people on them, to be crude) if it allowed them to begin what they're much more used to: A campaign of disruption and subversion. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1452
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Posted - 2013.08.15 01:05:00 -
[50] - Quote
I disagree with your assessment, Ikiryo-haani.
It's generally my experience that sentimental pilots are the EASIEST to draw into a foolish attack. We could use the Elder Fleet as an example, a loss of men and materiel without parallel except for Vak'Aktioth - itself a yardstick for incompentence and foolish prodigality.
Regardless - the tactics you speak of are available to be used by ANY competent Admiral put in such a situation, not merely Republic ones. The example of Tovil-Toba might be illustrative. |
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Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
144
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Posted - 2013.08.15 01:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
I respect your disagreement, of course, but... Well, I did say that they've shown that they're quite capable of abandoning it, Tuulinen-haan, for all that it might drive them in other times. After all, though they were quite keen to liberate the Starkmanir's when they had the chance, they were - as you said - also quite willing to sacrifice an innumerable amount of people and resources to do so. For them, at least from my observations, the tribe as a whole, and it's leaders, always come first.
I don't think they'd be driven to fight on the Amarrs terms unless one of those was at stake.
And as for your remark about anyone being able to use such tactics, well... You're quite right, of course, but I would suggest to you that the Republic Fleet's officers and pilots are the only one to whom it is second nature - The entire foundation of their training has likely been built around giving slow moving, slow thinking, traditional forces like the Amarr (Or well, specifically the Amarr) a death of a thousand cuts. For generations.
Anyone can pick up a knife and hack someones throat open when it's the best thing to do in the moment; It doesn't make them the equal of someone who's been practicing with one for their entire lives.
...If you'll forgive the slightly crude analogy. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1452
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Posted - 2013.08.15 01:23:00 -
[52] - Quote
It's more like driving a needle into someone's brainstem. If you don't time it exactly and pick precisely the right location for your raids, the fist around your throat will demand your attention soon enough.
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Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
144
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Posted - 2013.08.15 01:34:00 -
[53] - Quote
I'd say that a good practitioner of guerilla tactics leaves no throat to strangle - Simply a swarm of hands with needles. The Empire likely bombed a great many settlements during the rebellion a century past... But as things turned out, it wasn't enough to stop the Republic bleeding them dryer then they've ever been. At that was then they still relied greatly on Federate aid.
But it doesn't seem like I'm going to convince you of any exceptionalism on their part, regardless, so we should probably leave it at that. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1452
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Posted - 2013.08.15 01:39:00 -
[54] - Quote
Ikiryo-haani, since you're as hard-headed as I am I'll leave you with a parting shot.
You're fighting tomorrow's war based on an assessment of the two forces involved in a struggle a CENTURY ago. The doctrinal, materiel, training and manpower estimates I read were inked at the close of last year.
Conventional wisdom is a poor guide. |
Nicoletta Mithra
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
247
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Posted - 2013.08.15 01:47:00 -
[55] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:It's generally my experience that sentimental pilots are the EASIEST to draw into a foolish attack. We could use the Elder Fleet as an example, a loss of men and materiel without parallel except for Vak'Aktioth - itself a yardstick for incompentence and foolish prodigality.
Actually, the Empire lost a smaller fraction of it's space navy at Vak'Atioth than the Elder Fleet at the Battle of Mekhios. The effect Vak'Atioth had was that the Empire realized that a numerically superior force of Amarr ships could be deafeated by anyone at all. |
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
144
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Posted - 2013.08.15 01:53:00 -
[56] - Quote
...I think you're mistaking me for being more invested then I actually am, Tuulienn-haan. I'm just playing devils advocate, really. As I'm sort of prone to, in political debates.
In any case, you'll have to forgive me if I stubbornly cling to my "Conventional wisdom", regardless. I'm well aware of the current raw numbers behind the navies, and how the context has changed in the present day. But personally, I put more stock in precedent, and the mindset of the people involved.
To tell the truth, I've never trusted raw data. It was only a few years ago when I was in University just after Tibus Heths ascension and reading similar academic reports about how the Federation Navy was perfectly primed to roll over like a sicky dog in the wake of even the existance of our far superior force.
And, well... We know how that ended. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1452
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Posted - 2013.08.15 02:43:00 -
[57] - Quote
Tune in next week when I tell her she's been meditating completely wrong ALL THIS TIME.
*winks* |
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
144
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Posted - 2013.08.15 02:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
...Pardon me? |
Rioghal Morgan
Full Artificial Intelligence
27
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Posted - 2013.08.15 03:21:00 -
[59] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Steffanie Saissore wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Darth Espectro wrote:If the Empire were to attack the Federation, it would not be to destroy them, Ms. Kim.
We fight for the Reclaiming, so we would enslave the Gallente and guide them to His glory, even if that takes several generations. Oh, the irony. Those, who were climbing out of skin, interfering into others nations under excuse of fighting the slavery, to be enslaved themselves. It will be GLORIOUS. Let us assume for a minute that the Amarr enslave the Gallente and the Federation falls into obscurity, or at least what we know the Federation of today. With the collapse of the Federation and the success of that Reclaiming what is to stop the Amarr from continuing on into Caldari? Treaties, Friendship between nations and Honor.
Honor. Hah.
If the empire somehow overcame the Federation the Empire wouldn't need you anymore. There'd be no friendships, no alliance, no ties that bind.
All the State would be to them is their next meal. |
Nicoletta Mithra
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
247
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Posted - 2013.08.15 09:37:00 -
[60] - Quote
Rioghal Morgan wrote:Honor. Hah.
If the empire somehow overcame the Federation the Empire wouldn't need you anymore. There'd be no friendships, no alliance, no ties that bind.
All the State would be to them is their next meal.
This comment merely shows that you have quite a twisted understanding of friendship, if you only uphold it if you have a need of your friends. |
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