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No one will build the new Tech II ammo

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Harisdrop	Posted - 2005.12.27 13:46:00 - [1] People will sell thier bpo's and then hope to buy all the ammo they need with the proceeds. There are a few things we will see. First how hard it is to make these ammo. Secondly we will see people not sell to the public. All the Tech II bpo nowadays is not for the general public. The large corps and Alliances will buy all the bpo from thier zydrine and megacyte mining. They will spend huge amounts of isk. The problem will come when the balance of the game gets soo out of wack that two things happen. The corps/Alliances with the means will cry cause no one comes after them. There will be no need to have any corp in less than 0.5. You can build your own POS and have a factory slot and research slot when ever you want. The corps can run agents forever. Maybe some high level corp wars. Maybe some mutual roleplay wars. There will be no demand for the new Ammo. Why would someone want to pay 1000isk a round for something they could use standard ammo and kill. They are not PVP with it. Players dont do things cause it helps them they do things cause its cost effective. No one wants a battle they might loose. -------------------------- Whats funny is your heard it.
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2005.12.27 15:07:00 - [2] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/12/2005 15:06:59 Well, with only T1 ammos, I think I only get 50% net profit after NPCing. With T2 ammos, I think I will only get 25% (or less!) net profit after NPCing. The only good thing for T2 ammos are for PvPing. Besides, their penalty (I think) is rather severe to make them the "de facto" standard for PvPing or even PvEing. Just my 10 ISKs. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Saerid	Posted - 2005.12.27 16:50:00 - [3] They'll be in demand for pvp. And that "difficult to manufacture" is relative, if you're already building everything it's not much of a chore. As I recall we got some baking in the labs atm, should be coming to market sometime.
ElCoCo	Posted - 2005.12.27 16:59:00 - [4] Having just won one and not in the building business myself I'm wondering the same thing. 5000rounds of quake L would need roughly 2mil just for minerals/components (not to mention the hassle of getting them and their price rising as more stuff requiring components gets out) Build time is 20hours with PE5 and no research.... I don't see any "viable" pricing to be worth the time invested into building it. Would ppl pay say 10mil for 5k large ammo to be -remotely- worth it?
solidshot	Posted - 2005.12.27 20:19:00 - [5] Originally by: Saerid They'll be in demand for pvp. And that "difficult to manufacture" is relative, if you're already building everything it's not much of a chore. As I recall we got some baking in the labs atm, should be coming to market sometime. there will be a demand for this type of ammo for pvp use when ccp unnerf all of the t2 ammo, at the moment the cap charge reductions/tracking nerf's ect is way over the top of what is needed making it un viable to use for pvp
Callan Skiderlar	Posted - 2005.12.28 00:26:00 - [6] Like a lot of speculation in T2 BPOs, it'll all depend on how and when you think CCP will undo the pre-nerf. Smart money will understand that CCP will not let T2 ammo stay useless, but dumb money will price the BPOs assuming that they will be uber-uber. That's only if you're speculating in the BPOs. Like Harisdrop said, some alliances may be willing to pay for them just to lock up the capability, and the premium for doing so might far exceed the market value. --- Lifeline Minmatar Dreadnaught sales thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=220327
Herko Kerghans	Posted - 2005.12.28 05:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Callan Skiderlar Like Harisdrop said, some alliances may be willing to pay for them just to lock up the capability, and the premium for doing so might far exceed the market value. Amen to that. In the Age of the Titans we are about to enter, when people will put hundreds of billions on capital ships... 0.0 Alliances getting its hands on a T2 BPO (ships, module, ammo) has a lot to do with feeding their own logistics, not only marketing plans. Barriers - an EVE novel
Destructor1792	Posted - 2005.12.28 11:10:00 - [8] All my minerals currently comes from mission loot, so any ammo I make costs me the install price. If I ever get my paws on a T2 BPO, then I shall do exactly the same & sell at a very reduced price. This will force down the regional price & if all players do the same, the big corps & alliances will have no choice but to follow suit. ______________________________________
solidshot	Posted - 2005.12.28 11:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Destructor1792 All my minerals currently comes from mission loot, so any ammo I make costs me the install price. If I ever get my paws on a T2 BPO, then I shall do exactly the same & sell at a very reduced price. This will force down the regional price & if all players do the same, the big corps & alliances will have no choice but to follow suit. the trouble is if you try to do that all that will happen is the other t2 producers will set a buy order to buy your goods at the reduced price then resell the goods at their own inflated price, i believe i'm right in saying this has happened before.
Harisdrop	Posted - 2005.12.28 14:19:00 - [10] Originally by: solidshot Originally by: Destructor1792 All my minerals currently comes from mission loot, so any ammo I make costs me the install price. If I ever get my paws on a T2 BPO, then I shall do exactly the same & sell at a very reduced price. This will force down the regional price & if all players do the same, the big corps & alliances will have no choice but to follow suit. the trouble is if you try to do that all that will happen is the other t2 producers will set a buy order to buy your goods at the reduced price then resell the goods at their own inflated price, i believe i'm right in saying this has happened before. Not only does this happens it happens in large qty. A tech II owner can make sure his assest is profitable. The issue between ammo to mods and ships is that you only need 2 cap rechargers II ever until your ship blows. Ammo is a demanded commodity. Everyday every hour you need 500qty here and 1000qty there. First you can not keep up with a 100,000 buy order let alone a whole region. The issue will be that players and manufacturers will have to balance this valued item not on supply and demand but some value added price. Since there ius no way if the item is un nerfed to keep up with demand but also I dont think 5,000 isk a charge will be very useful. -------------------------- Whats funny is your heard it.

Destructor1792	Posted - 2005.12.29 22:21:00 - [11] I know what you mean there - only way would be to put a few ads up & sell private. Doing a quick check of their stats should weed out any from the Big Corps & Alliances. Some will slip through, but the main bulk of people wanting it should be ok. ______________________________________
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.12.29 22:50:00 - [12] Originally by: ElCoCo Would ppl pay say 10mil for 5k large ammo to be -remotely- worth it? People pay MORE than this for faction amo which has far smaller bonuses. Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Callan Skiderlar	Posted - 2005.12.29 23:08:00 - [13] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: ElCoCo Would ppl pay say 10mil for 5k large ammo to be -remotely- worth it? People pay MORE than this for faction amo which has far smaller bonuses. Indeed. Also, look at it this way: How much do people pay for T2 weapons to get a slight bonus above mid-level named T1? And how much ammo do you need to carry with you on a PVP op? If you're spending 60M on a full rack of T2 rails, let's say, what's another 4M for 2,000 rounds of T2 ammo? 2-5K/round is not unrealistic given the premiums placed on mods. That's not even talking about the premiums demonstrated in officer mods etc. --- Lifeline Minmatar Dreadnaught sales thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=220327
ElCoCo	Posted - 2005.12.30 17:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Maya Rkell People pay MORE than this for faction amo which has far smaller bonuses. I'm not arguing with that... The point is, depending on how many BPO's of each ammo will be seeded (30?), I don't see much profit margin in it when the prices start to fall to a "reasonable" lvl... coupled with their insane-ish build times... I dunno . Oh well we'll see
Saldara	Posted - 2005.12.31 11:20:00 - [15] I disagree with the whole argument that people would just sell the BPOs to the highest bidder and take the ISK and run. I have received one of the new ammo BPOs and currently have some ammo on the market.I am in full production right now but can, at maximum, produce only 60,000 rounds per week. I think demand would outstrip any supply that I can provide. Prices will remain high right now as only a few BPOs have seeded. Eventually they will drop as competition brings out more ammunition but even with , say, 10 people in production demand will probably outstrip supply. The only real bugaboo in this whole equation is the fact that some corporations will never sell the ammunition on the open market and keep it for themselves. Yes, I have been offered some nice ISK for the BPO but have no intention to sell it. Alt post in order to protect the guilty
irtehnub	Posted - 2005.12.31 11:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Saldara I disagree with the whole argument that people would just sell the BPOs to the highest bidder and take the ISK and run. I have received one of the new ammo BPOs and currently have some ammo on the market.I am in full production right now but can, at maximum, produce only 60,000 rounds per week. I think demand would outstrip any supply that I can provide. Prices will remain high right now as only a few BPOs have seeded. Eventually they will drop as competition brings out more ammunition but even with , say, 10 people in production demand will probably outstrip supply. The only real bugaboo in this whole equation is the fact that some corporations will never sell the ammunition on the open market and keep it for themselves. Yes, I have been offered some nice ISK for the BPO but have no intention to sell it. Alt post in order to protect the guilty there are also the people who sit in the bp chanel every day who seem to try to fleece the nubs who have just got a bpo drop and are asking for a price check, you constantly see them trying to resell the bpo's they have just got for a pitance for several billions a short time later.
without	Posted - 2005.12.31 13:51:00 - [17] this is a very complecated topic and each ammo type has its arguments. lets start with heavy percison missiles. they are the best thing sicne sliced bred they will have 40 sig with skills on lvl 4 so a cerb will do near enough max damage to a harpy infact, in one volley a cerb with EM t2 percusin will strip a harpys shiedls bare. now that is uber. second volley will stip its shields, 3rd volley will kill it. thats like under 10sec but i dont see anyone fitting t2 heavy missile launchers onto caracals or t1 cruisers, so this ammo will only be bought by cerb pilots. the number of cerb pilots that pvp isnt that great. so prices will stay at an offordable rate now take the javelin torps, they are very nice, a lot more speed, range, and lower sig. these will be used by lots of people in t2 ravens. also the number of ammo bpo is unknown, which will also effect the price a lot what u got to ask yourself is, how much would i pay to fill all my gus/launchers with t2 ammo now raven can hold 120 torps in its 6 launchers, would u pay 2mil to fill them up? i would, since that is just killing 2 simple BS rats. and that 2mil would get me a lot of benifits taking the javelin missiles again, it lets me do full damage to a tempest, full damage to a gedden, 33% more damage to hacs, and it means i can snipe back at turret boats since my missiles go at 8kmps
JerrySpringer	Posted - 2005.12.31 14:26:00 - [18] Originally by: irtehnub Originally by: Saldara I disagree with the whole argument that people would just sell the BPOs to the highest bidder and take the ISK and run. I have received one of the new ammo BPOs and currently have some ammo on the market.I am in full production right now but can, at maximum, produce only 60,000 rounds per week. I think demand would outstrip any supply that I can provide. Prices will remain high right now as only a few BPOs have seeded. Eventually they will drop as competition brings out more ammunition but even with , say, 10 people in production demand will probably outstrip supply. The only real bugaboo in this whole equation is the fact that some corporations will never sell the ammunition on the open market and keep it for themselves. Yes, I have been offered some nice ISK for the BPO but have no intention to sell it. Alt post in order to protect the guilty there are also the people who sit in the bp chanel every day who seem to try to fleece the nubs who have just got a bpo drop and are asking for a price check, you constantly see them trying to resell the bpo's they have just got for a pitance for several billions a short time later. Enter trade channels in game at your own risk. It's a jungle out there. And as far as nubs selling t2 BPOs for nothing...well, they're nubs, what do you expect?
Yaman	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:18:00 - [19] I think Saldara hit the nail on the head pretty much. t2 ammo can only be produced so fast. At the rate we consume ammunition it is going to be a rarity and I think that is actually a good thing. It's good because it does a few things both economically and PVP speaking...which PVP btw is directly related to and affecting on the economy. 1. It will be hard to gauge and guess who will be using t2 and who won't be. EVEN IF you've seen the same pilot use it one day, due to the quantity you won't know if they are using it the next. (although I do believe one day it will catch up and there will be enough quantity for the demand, unless there is major wars every day) 2. Because it takes over a day in some cases to create some t2 ammo, it changes cash flow. This is actually interesting for the economics of EVE. It's the difference between selling a million missles for 1 dollar over the course of a day or selling half a million missles for 2 dollars over the course of two days. For those economically challenged (myself included sometimes ) - You get the same amount of money either way. It just changes the time in which you recieve it. This also does one more important thing... it spreads out the consumption of ammo. We all know if we got it, we'll use it. So this way if you have 1,000 missles every two days you may use up all 1,000 in one day. Otherwise if you can only get 500 every day... you are guaranteed some missles for the next day's fight. Again, you can see my point right here. While I agree that t2 ammo is a ***** to produce and breaks RAM parts which in turn inflated the price of those..which in turn makes empire more attractive. which in turn.. blah blah blah... While I agree that it's a pain that it takes so long to make copies of the t2 ammo blueprints, research them, and produce ammo off them in general... I disagree with everyone thinking that they will have no value, be too hard to make, AND most importantly -- keep up with demand. Like I said, UNLESS THERES A HUGE WAR EVERY DAY... manufacturing is gonna catch up. Of course I'm not thinking about anyone consuming these items that doesn't PVP. I can't imagine someone is gonna buy ammo to hunt npcs or do missions...it wouldn't be cost effective under the provisions CCP set up for the t2 ammo. t1 ammo is good enough. Now, EVE's economy is WAY WAY different than real life and fortunately.....there are no laws So certain special illegal things that go on in real life are going to make some people really upset one day.
Tobiaz	Posted - 2006.01.03 00:57:00 - [20] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: ElCoCo Would ppl pay say 10mil for 5k large ammo to be -remotely- worth it? People pay MORE than this for faction amo which has far smaller bonuses. And also lacks some of the very nasty penalties. RMR hiatus

Driven	Posted - 2006.01.03 04:32:00 - [21] Edited by: Driven on 03/01/2006 04:32:37 Originally by: Harisdrop People will sell thier bpo's and then hope to buy all the ammo they need with the proceeds. There are a few things we will see. First how hard it is to make these ammo. Secondly we will see people not sell to the public. All the Tech II bpo nowadays is not for the general public. The large corps and Alliances will buy all the bpo from thier zydrine and megacyte mining. They will spend huge amounts of isk. The problem will come when the balance of the game gets soo out of wack that two things happen. The corps/Alliances with the means will cry cause no one comes after them. There will be no need to have any corp in less than 0.5. You can build your own POS and have a factory slot and research slot when ever you want. The corps can run agents forever. Maybe some high level corp wars. Maybe some mutual roleplay wars. There will be no demand for the new Ammo. Why would someone want to pay 1000isk a round for something they could use standard ammo and kill. They are not PVP with it. Players dont do things cause it helps them they do things cause its cost effective. No one wants a battle they might loose. 1. It is incredibly hard to build this ammo. I almost broke my finger moving my mouse around and clicking it four times to install the Tremor M BPO. 2. Yes, there is no demand and I cannot sell it. Can't even give it away. Those people who are doing the imaginary buying of the ammo too difficult to build are really not paying 5K a unit as it flies off the market - I am just on drugs and hallucinating it all. Please get a clue and use it next time before you so publicly embarrass yourself by exhibiting your stupidity for all to see.
Saldara	Posted - 2006.01.03 11:21:00 - [22] So you are saying that my price of 1K per round of ammo is too low? Maybe I should reevaluate my pricing structure.... I also got a second ammo BPO and am busy producing those items. I'll see if the rockets sell... In the meantime I will look for a Turbo Booster for my gouge button.
Harisdrop	Posted - 2006.01.03 14:29:00 - [23] I bought 5000 Javelin Small for my Ares. Proceded to do level 3 missions. I killed Moa's and Blackbirds. Portal to War 4 of 5. That mission took me time but my point is that Ithink the judgement will not if the price is right but whats the purpose. I think there will be players going around and buying this stuff cause they can. I think once they start they wont stop. I wonder which Missle types of Ammo will sell better? -------------------------- Whats funny is your heard it.
Khazur	Posted - 2006.01.03 15:11:00 - [24] as someone that gained a t2 ammo bpo i am currently building it and selling i believe that 1000isks a round is way over priced i would never buy at that price and so i dont sell at that price. and the ones that are seling their bpo's are just looking for some quick input of isks nothing more ---------------------------------- Silent Sun Enterprises We Build What you Need!!
Jennai	Posted - 2006.01.03 16:58:00 - [25] why does T2 ammo take two minutes to build 5000 rounds when T2 crystals take EIGHT HOURS to build four? ------- macro hunters - join channel MacroIntel macro miner killboard: www.anti-macro.com
without	Posted - 2006.01.03 17:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Jennai why does T2 ammo take two minutes to build 5000 rounds when T2 crystals take EIGHT HOURS to build four? some prints are serverly buged afaik large ammo/crystals are ment to take > 1day to build 5k [8units of crystals?] medium are ment to take over a half day and small over a quator day
Jennai	Posted - 2006.01.03 17:14:00 - [27] Edited by: Jennai on 03/01/2006 17:13:48 Originally by: without Originally by: Jennai why does T2 ammo take two minutes to build 5000 rounds when T2 crystals take EIGHT HOURS to build four? some prints are serverly buged afaik large ammo/crystals are ment to take > 1day to build 5k [8units of crystals?] medium are ment to take over a half day and small over a quator day did they say anything about fixing this? ammo market is screwed if they don't because the market will be completely saturated, especially since the crystals need RAM and the ammo doesn't. at current rates, you can build 300k small hybrid ammo in the time it takes to make one small crystal. ------- macro hunters - join channel MacroIntel macro miner killboard: www.anti-macro.com
Mesuinu	Posted - 2006.01.03 19:45:00 - [28] This ammo will be highly PVP centric I can tell you that much, even at current prices. As someone who lives in 0.0 I would definitely keep some just for PVP ops and then use standard ammo for npc'ing. One thing to bear in mind that alliance people largely build their own ammo while in 0.0 whereas this stuff will have to be brought from empire especially. As such I would expect people to buy fair amounts of the stuff at a time on a reasonably regular basis.
Allea	Posted - 2006.01.04 16:47:00 - [29] This ammo will be highly valued for PvP. The reason it is not selling right now is the same reason T2 drones didn't sell for a long time- very few have the skills. I don't know about the Fury missle ammo, but I can see the Precision missle ammo being _hugely_ significant in PvP. So hang in, don't start price warring yet- the ammo will start to sell in a month or so when people have the skills trained up.
Moderate Peril	Posted - 2006.01.07 18:58:00 - [30] Originally by: ElCoCo The point is, depending on how many BPO's of each ammo will be seeded (30?), I don't see much profit margin in it when the prices start to fall to a "reasonable" lvl... coupled with their insane-ish build times... I dunno . Oh well we'll see Erm.... remind me of the price of T2 cap rechargers again?



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