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20 BPOs, 8 BPOs, need more for the 100k userbase

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doyouneedcash	Posted - 2005.12.27 21:31:00 - [1] Edited by: doyouneedcash on 27/12/2005 21:31:33 The fact that most t2 BPOs have 20 seeded is a joke. There are over 100k accounts in eve. I understand that yes, eve is a place where you can and should be able to have some play with price fixing, but come on. You are talking about a very very select few who have a grip on the t2 market that in turn affects over 100,000 accounts. Want an example ? T2 cap rechargers. I'm sure that just about every 100,000 of CCPs accounts would like to use these, but there are only 8 BPOs in all the EVE world. What happens when 2-4 people hold onto all the BPOs? You have 2-4 people controlling 100,000 accounts that want to use those mods. I am all for a fair profit on the parts of the producers. Selling them for 20x what it costs you to make is not fair. Don't bring that crap about market is willing to pay for it because clearly the amount of BPOs in game is broken. Yes it is what the market will pay for it, but yes there are to few t2 BPOs out there. Let me remind you that 8, yes 8 and 20, yes 20, are the most t2 BPOs(for each ship/mod) that are in the game. With the trend of eve growing, this is something that really needs to be looked at. If you will entertain me for a second, this is just like those 8-20 t2 BPO owners controlling the only access point into 0.0, they affect a huge amount of players, and while yes it is their "right", CCP this is wrong. ok im done crying now
TemporaryAlt	Posted - 2005.12.27 21:38:00 - [2] Tell it to the people who sold their BPO's to the cartel(s)
Akarah Siminova	Posted - 2005.12.27 21:40:00 - [3] Put all t2 bpos on the npc market some months after their initial release. Price them at a very high, but attainable, point. Let the market self regulate by increasing supply, not just increasing item market price. Right now there is no possibility for that.
doyouneedcash	Posted - 2005.12.27 21:44:00 - [4] Originally by: TemporaryAlt Tell it to the people who sold their BPO's to the cartel(s) thats what im saying...8-20 BPOs is to easy for a handfull of people or corps to buy them all. We have over 100k accounts. there should be at least 100 BPOs for each item. IMO t2 bpos should be for sale from NPCs after a few months of release. huge amounts of isk yes, but nothing should be out of reach in an MMO*
Vandar Broheem	Posted - 2005.12.27 21:46:00 - [5] Quote: I am all for a fair profit on the parts of the producers. Selling them for 20x what it costs you to make is not fair. Don't bring that crap about market is willing to pay for it because clearly the amount of BPOs in game is broken. Yes it is what the market will pay for it, but yes there are to few t2 BPOs out there. I agree. I also agree about the fact the pricing is controlled by the lack of BPOs. People pay 15 mill + for CPR II's not because they can or want to but simply because they have no other choice. There simply aren't enough of these things out there as there should be. Yes, you current T2 manufacturers, we understand you think everything is fine and dandy with the current tech 2 market and the huge profits you are making, I suppose I would too if I could make 20X profit on the things I sold simply because I was one of the .005% of the player base that has been lucky enough to get a T2 BPO.
Kraven Kor	Posted - 2005.12.27 21:58:00 - [6] The top 2% have been trickling down on me for years...
Megadon	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:03:00 - [7] Meh, I largely disagree with the assessment that the tech 2 bpo market place needs fixing. The current system is not perfect, but it is far better than anything proposed thus far. The tech 1 market place is broken in many many ways and even though I don't have any tech 2 bpo's, I think that bringing the ills of the tech 1 market place to the tech 2 world would just break things further, and that's what a lot of these proposals would do. Cap recharger II's is the favorite scape goat everyone always uses as IF it is an accurate representation of the entire situation and it of course is not. It is the exception.
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:03:00 - [8] Originally by: Akarah Siminova Put all t2 bpos on the npc market some months after their initial release. Price them at a very high, but attainable, point. Let the market self regulate by increasing supply, not just increasing item market price. Right now there is no possibility for that. That would throw the tech2 market into the state the tech1 market is, and well, that wont happen. Seeding more bpo's doesnt help much because the ones willing to build tech2 does, and those who dont sell their bpo's to does who do. If players keept their prints and produced and sold from them, the state of the market would been a bit different. To many go for the instant isk approach rather than the long process to earn it. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
High Sierra	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:09:00 - [9] said something about this in another thread. I think they need to open up the T2 market. HOWEVER. I dont think they should make the T2 bpos widely available. All they need to do is open up the market slightly to increase competition. By doing that you will see T2 components being priced competitively without ruining the idea that T2 is 'special' - if you see what I mean. However, the entire EvE market is going through a depression at the moment due to ram components being scarce and the macro miners screwing with the mineral prices. Plus the PoS market isnt really functioning like it could do. So we might just be seeing bad times that could change. but we might not.
Akarah Siminova	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:15:00 - [10] Whats so wrong with the t1 market? Its competative? Margins are slim?
Skarsnik	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:17:00 - [11] Edited by: Skarsnik on 27/12/2005 22:16:57 Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Originally by: Akarah Siminova Seeding more bpo's doesnt help much because the ones willing to build tech2 does, and those who dont sell their bpo's to does who do. I'd really like to produce Tech 2 BPO's however the daft lottery which gives out to those who have multiple accounts (i.e Rich enough in RL) all running R&D agents is a joke. Therefor 25 Bill for a recently release ship BPO is out of my reach. Yes a small corp we may be, and not on overly often (Real Life takes precedence), but most things should be in our reach. Things like titans and outposts I agree should be big alliance stuff, but I wanted to be a scientist and researcher, and at this point I cannot due to the nature of the underlying flaws in the lottery system. ------------------------------------------------- Statement of the Obvious Contrary to Popular belief - it is NOT possible to walk on water.
doyouneedcash	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:18:00 - [12] Edited by: doyouneedcash on 27/12/2005 22:19:48 8 PEOPLE (at the most on the BPOs that were introduced first) HAVE CONTROL OF EACH t2 MARKET DON'T YOU SEE THAT AS A PROBLEM we have over 100,000 people, and the people that hold the t2 BPOs i can count on my FINGERS AND TOES. 100,000 should NOT be at the mercy of 20
Aeon Yakati	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Akarah Siminova Whats so wrong with the t1 market? Its competative? Margins are slim? Most of the t1 stuff is dropped by npc's
hylleX	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:20:00 - [14] signed Well kids you've tried your best and failed miserably, the lesson is: never try
Kyrmius	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:20:00 - [15] Originally by: High Sierra said something about this in another thread. I think they need to open up the T2 market. HOWEVER. I dont think they should make the T2 bpos widely available. All they need to do is open up the market slightly to increase competition. By doing that you will see T2 components being priced competitively without ruining the idea that T2 is 'special' - if you see what I mean. However, the entire EvE market is going through a depression at the moment due to ram components being scarce and the macro miners screwing with the mineral prices. Plus the PoS market isnt really functioning like it could do. So we might just be seeing bad times that could change. but we might not. /signed the fact remains....T2 is just too expensive to justify......the "risk vs reward" calculation in regards to T2 components is out of wack. It just is not financially viable to consider using them. and in the end, that only hurts the very players that hold the T2 bpo's. I nolonger buy anything T2. put that in your pipe and smoke it. Kyrmius ...Just an old Matari...
Uncauzi	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:21:00 - [16] Edited by: Uncauzi on 27/12/2005 22:21:34 Originally by: Megadon Meh, I largely disagree with the assessment that the tech 2 bpo market place needs fixing. The current system is not perfect, but it is far better than anything proposed thus far. The tech 1 market place is broken in many many ways and even though I don't have any tech 2 bpo's, I think that bringing the ills of the tech 1 market place to the tech 2 world would just break things further, and that's what a lot of these proposals would do. Cap recharger II's is the favorite scape goat everyone always uses as IF it is an accurate representation of the entire situation and it of course is not. It is the exception. Err, what's wrong with the tech 1 market? Stuff I make on a newbie character flies off the shelves (20 Kestrels in a day, for example. Even 5 Cormorants the same day).
High Sierra	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:26:00 - [17] theres nothing wrong with the T1 market. my corp operates quite effectively there. I dont really want to use this as an example because everyone does but it does show up the problem best. Cap Recharger 1 is between 15-20,000 isk in Tash murkon region atm. Cap Recharger 2 I cant actually find any, but 15million would be cheap. Power Diagnostic 1 between 14- 40,000 isk in Tash Murkon Power Diagnostic 2 around 3.6million. There is no argument you could present to me that could possibly convince me that the price difference for a Cap recharger 2 is justifiable. Simple economics: If supply is low, demand is high as a result, price is correspondingly high. If supply increases, price should drop because demand drops since the suppliers are having to compete to get the available customers to buy their component. HOWEVER this situation doesnt happen in EvE, because there are no more or less suppliers and so price will generally creep up because there is no competition. Therefore Introduce more suppliers into the market, and price will drop.
Allen Deckard	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:31:00 - [18] Originally by: Vandar Broheem Quote: I am all for a fair profit on the parts of the producers. Selling them for 20x what it costs you to make is not fair. Don't bring that crap about market is willing to pay for it because clearly the amount of BPOs in game is broken. Yes it is what the market will pay for it, but yes there are to few t2 BPOs out there. I agree. I also agree about the fact the pricing is controlled by the lack of BPOs. *People pay 15 mill + for CPR II's not because they can or want to but simply because they have no other choice.* There simply aren't enough of these things out there as there should be. Yes, you current T2 manufacturers, we understand you think everything is fine and dandy with the current tech 2 market and the huge profits you are making, I suppose I would too if I could make 20X profit on the things I sold simply because I was one of the .005% of the player base that has been lucky enough to get a T2 BPO. You do realize you DO have a choice right? You don't HAVE to use them correct? Take me for instance I refuse to use a cap recharger 2 they are overpriced. But then again obviously there are enough players that dont feel as I do and feel they are worth the price. Thus they are the price they are.
Vandar Broheem	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:31:00 - [19] Originally by: Akarah Siminova Whats so wrong with the t1 market? Its competative? Margins are slim? The only people that actively complain about the T1 market are those that see the huge profits the T2 guys are making. T1 is exactly as it should be, lots of competition and reasonable mark-ups of 50-100% instead of the 1000-2000% the T2 holders enjoy.
Orion Pax	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:32:00 - [20] This is why I only build T2 parts/ships for corp mates. After getting the BPC of said item, I try to keep them as low cost as possible. If I ever get a T2 BPO, I'll produce them and keep the BPO. I don't mind making more isk over a longer period of time. You're only a martyr if someone cares about you.
PirateShampoo	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:32:00 - [21] Its completly rediculas when people try to justify sell a mod at a 1500% profit margin like they do with cap IIs
Megadon	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Akarah Siminova Whats so wrong with the t1 market? Its competative? Margins are slim? BPC's are so plentiful and easy to make that many use them as toilet paper. This encourages more people build something at a cost that is actually higher than what you could purchase the same item in the marketplace for and discourages manufacturing and reduces real profit. The barrier to entry is nothing or extremely low So you have people building and selling items at or below their true cost. Or people do not factor in their time to produce because BPO's and BPC's are so plentiful. Those are just a couple but it's enough because they have a huge impact. If you have a tech 2 BPO, you're not going to engage in the above practices because the barrier to entry into the tech 2 marketplace is very high and BPO's are very rare. It also takes longer to copy a BPO that it does to build the item (thank god) so the maximum profit comes from building and selling vs copying the bpo and selling copies. You're going to pay attention and factor in a lot of things that you don't in the tech 1 world because a lot more is at stake and a lot more is involved in building tech 2 items. You have a lot of casual builders on the tech 1 market that just want to dump product to generate cash flow and they really don't know if, or how much profit they're making. It screws up the market. You don't have that in the tech 2 markets.
Garreck	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:42:00 - [23] Just one problem... You're not going to convince me that the business savvy people wouldn't do their best to buy up and control all the BPOs...whether 20 or 40 or 100 were seeded. And they'd still control the market. Wealth builds on wealth...put more resources into the system (more BPOs in this case) and the smart people are still going to do what they can to acquire them. I don't build...I do combat. If I magically got a bpo because more were seeded, I'd have no use for it but to sell to the highest bidder...and who's that bidder gonna be? The rich guys who got rich because they control all the blueprints. Even if I were a producer myself, I'm sure someone could offer me "the right price" and I'd sell. That's the nature of a player-run economy, I suppose. The business savvy get rich...and use those riches to gain yet more. Now, that merely addresses the "who has what" issue. From an "availability" issue, I can see the demand for more BPOs. As it stands right now with production time for tech 2 ships, not only do you have to pay out the nose for one, you've got to pray that there's even one available on the market. More blueprints to produce from would breathe a bit of life into tech 2 ship production. I understand RAMtech drops are also a concern for tech 2 ship production... Garreck Aku. Soku. Zan.
Cylynex	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:43:00 - [24] Quote: The only people that actively complain about the T1 market are those that see the huge profits the T2 guys are making. T1 is exactly as it should be, lots of competition and reasonable mark-ups of 50-100% instead of the 1000-2000% the T2 holders enjoy. Yes, that's correct. And there is absolutely NOTHING that you can do to try to get into the T2 market other than pray you get lucky and "win" a T2 cash register or shell out some big bucks for a T2 BPO. Cool game mechanic. Probably the only truly weak aspect of an otherwise amazing game, and it's too bad because research and development should be one of the cooler things to do in the game. Not a cheesy lottery.
Vandar Broheem	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:43:00 - [25] Originally by: Allen Deckard Originally by: Vandar Broheem Quote: I am all for a fair profit on the parts of the producers. Selling them for 20x what it costs you to make is not fair. Don't bring that crap about market is willing to pay for it because clearly the amount of BPOs in game is broken. Yes it is what the market will pay for it, but yes there are to few t2 BPOs out there. I agree. I also agree about the fact the pricing is controlled by the lack of BPOs. *People pay 15 mill + for CPR II's not because they can or want to but simply because they have no other choice.* There simply aren't enough of these things out there as there should be. Yes, you current T2 manufacturers, we understand you think everything is fine and dandy with the current tech 2 market and the huge profits you are making, I suppose I would too if I could make 20X profit on the things I sold simply because I was one of the .005% of the player base that has been lucky enough to get a T2 BPO. You do realize you DO have a choice right? You don't HAVE to use them correct? Take me for instance I refuse to use a cap recharger 2 they are overpriced. But then again obviously there are enough players that dont feel as I do and feel they are worth the price. Thus they are the price they are. Well of course I realize I have the choice to not use them at all. That however is not the issue, the issue is the gouging of the market simply because they can. Demand is artificially high based on the fact that supply is overly limited. It's way to simple now for the 20 or so people that hold T2 BPOs to simply not build anything for a few days and watch their profit margins climb even higher into the ridiculous. So I'm spoiled and I want to get as many of the "toys" this game provides as I can. The fact is I pay the same price to play as anybody else and to have my access to some of the better items restricted by a few extremely greedy people isn't right by any definition. Why should I have to scrimp and save to buy something at 20X its build cost when a few lucky lotto winners can have them at cost. The T2 lotto should be for BPCs instead of BPOs, If I win a real lotto the lotto commision doesn't keep giving me money after I spent my winnings, why should the T2 lotto winners get to keep loading their pockets with billions of ISK for 1 lucky draw? Make T2 lotto BPCs 1-5 runs and make T2 BPOs purchaseable on the market and things would be much better off.
Embattle	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:46:00 - [26] I would like to see more T2 BPOs released but I'm also not going to ignore the fact this would do little to certain markets while there is a RAM shortage....if any thing the problem is likely to become more acute under such circumstances. ----------- Trolling - Ban - All I got was this silly Hat.
Megadon	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:49:00 - [27] 50%- 100% mark up in tech 1 with reasonable competition? That's just not the way it is. perhaps a few items in a few isolated markets. Look at the tech 1 ship marketplace and tell me people are making a reasonable profit selling tier 2 battleships for 100 million isk.
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:49:00 - [28] Originally by: doyouneedcash Edited by: doyouneedcash on 27/12/2005 22:19:48 8 PEOPLE (at the most on the BPOs that were introduced first) HAVE CONTROL OF EACH t2 MARKET DON'T YOU SEE THAT AS A PROBLEM we have over 100,000 people, and the people that hold the t2 BPOs i can count on my FINGERS AND TOES. 100,000 should NOT be at the mercy of 20 I got a couple t2 bpo's I know a few others who does as well, neither of us control the t2 market in any way. Get real. Where is that 100k number of yours taken from? With all the players in EVE who got multiple accounts. Please separate characters/accounts and players. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:50:00 - [29] Originally by: Aeon Yakati Originally by: Akarah Siminova Whats so wrong with the t1 market? Its competative? Margins are slim? Most of the t1 stuff is dropped by npc's Beside, the amount of bpc's out there make the bpo's of tech1 modules and ships practicaly worthless. And the tiny profit margins, even on battleships make it not worth the while for most parts. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
High Sierra	Posted - 2005.12.27 22:51:00 - [30] Originally by: Garreck Just one problem... You're not going to convince me that the business savvy people wouldn't do their best to buy up and control all the BPOs...whether 20 or 40 or 100 were seeded. And they'd still control the market. Wealth builds on wealth...put more resources into the system (more BPOs in this case) and the smart people are still going to do what they can to acquire them. I don't build...I do combat. If I magically got a bpo because more were seeded, I'd have no use for it but to sell to the highest bidder...and who's that bidder gonna be? The rich guys who got rich because they control all the blueprints. Even if I were a producer myself, I'm sure someone could offer me "the right price" and I'd sell. That's the nature of a player-run economy, I suppose. The business savvy get rich...and use those riches to gain yet more. Now, that merely addresses the "who has what" issue. From an "availability" issue, I can see the demand for more BPOs. As it stands right now with production time for tech 2 ships, not only do you have to pay out the nose for one, you've got to pray that there's even one available on the market. More blueprints to produce from would breathe a bit of life into tech 2 ship production. I understand RAMtech drops are also a concern for tech 2 ship production... no flame here, but you're happy to live in that kind of market are you? and I completely agree with you re T2 ships. and Ram.

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