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20 BPOs, 8 BPOs, need more for the 100k userbase

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doyouneedcash	Posted - 2005.12.28 00:36:00 - [61] Originally by: Agent Kenshin Originally by: doyouneedcash Edited by: doyouneedcash on 28/12/2005 00:16:26 Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Originally by: doyouneedcash Originally by: Lickity Split how many more of these posts do we have to see? i dont own any bpos and this is just getting old to see the same complaints over and over. GET OVER IT, OR QUIT! so you are 100% fine with 8-20 people (who are not elected) dictating the entire market of a t2 good? you do know that over 100,000 people play this game right? I would like to know where you get your figures from. Do you have any facts and evidence to back your claims up with rather than lose figures pulled out of the thin air? or maybe hot gas leaking from some crevice? it has been stated by the devs that they have indeed passed over the 100k user account mark, and they have indeed stated the 8-20 BPO seeded. I ok here is a link for the ammount of accounts..this is over 80k paying accounts, and then add another 15k non paying trial accounts http://www.eve-db.com/ and for the t2 BPOs id have to dig through many many dev logs to find that, but i think everyone here will agree that the first t2 bpos were seeded with 8, and thenewer t2 bpos were seeded with 20 100k accounts, yes. 100k players, no. Is it right for those 20 people to dictate who gets what and who doesnt. DAMN right it is. Thats the game dont like it leave. This is CCPs game and when they start to curve away from their dream the game will become just like everyother MMO. A better reason to increase bpos is that supply is not keeping up with demand. Thats better than people whining on the forums because the price of a cap 2 or HAC is too high. Or in this case whining because only 20 people control the market. And 100k accounts doesnt mean that 100k characters can fly HACs or use every module in teh game. i never said that 100k people fly hacs. why do you think they seeded the number they did? they looked at how many people play the game, and took a number relative to that current population. well we have had a huge expanse in the amount of people that play the game now, and if they were to seed the BPOs again they would have without a doubt seeded more based on the current population. think of it this way. when a small town was esablished it had the ability to hook up sewer to 100 houses with its sewage equipment. now the town expands to 1000 people. by your logic then then town should not expand the sewage capacity, even though the original capacity was BASED on the town size? don't you agree that the t2 BPOs have a finite production capacity? what happens if eve expands to 500,000 players? will you still say "oh to bad so sad" when we are working off of 8 bpos for 500k people? what about when eve gets to 1,000,000 people? still the same answer? do you see where i am going with this?
Ichabod Dirange	Posted - 2005.12.28 00:37:00 - [62] Edited by: Ichabod Dirange on 28/12/2005 00:38:14 Really? How are the powers that be in present day taking care of the masses? Do tell, is there a philanthropist bone in any of them? What are the oligarks doing for Russia, the tychoons for people in the projects in the US, royalty and head of clans for the masses in Africa and so on... Of course they use their cornering of wealth to distribute back fairly amongst their people.
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.12.28 00:40:00 - [63] Originally by: doyouneedcash don't you agree that the t2 BPOs have a finite production capacity? what happens if eve expands to 500,000 players? will you still say "oh to bad so sad" when we are working off of 8 bpos for 500k people? what about when eve gets to 1,000,000 people? still the same answer? do you see where i am going with this? Your figures are wrong, there is far more than 8 prints of any given t2 module/ship. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Cadman Weyland	Posted - 2005.12.28 00:41:00 - [64] Originally by: doyouneedcash Edited by: doyouneedcash on 27/12/2005 22:19:48 8 PEOPLE (at the most on the BPOs that were introduced first) HAVE CONTROL OF EACH t2 MARKET DON'T YOU SEE THAT AS A PROBLEM we have over 100,000 people, and the people that hold the t2 BPOs i can count on my FINGERS AND TOES. 100,000 should NOT be at the mercy of 20 Signed Director of Empire Ops and Chief Carebear
Frezik	Posted - 2005.12.28 00:43:00 - [65] Originally by: Mortus Harbinger Why can't we have some sort of market regulation? The self-regulation model has been tried and, due to the greed of a few (most likely Amarr) large corporations, has failed miserably. I think there should be a ceiling set on the price that can be charged for all T2 items. This could be calculated based on average cost of components and ore. If manufacturers were allowed a markup of, for example, 100% .. they would still be raking in the ISK, but without ripping off the Eve community as they appear to do on some items. Real world manufacturers never get shut down for overpricing in any country that gives even the slightest lip service to capitalisim. They get shut down for price fixing or monopolies, sure, but that's not the same thing as overpricing. When the price ceiling idea get's implemented, can you supply me with my need for t2 small autocannons? Because although I'm willing to spend 500k-1mil per unit, I won't be able to find one for any price because there will be a shortage. That's what happens when you set price ceilings. ---- "Well in this case, he's being flamed, and rightly so, for whinning about a game mechanic that doesn't actually exist." -Lorth
doyouneedcash	Posted - 2005.12.28 00:46:00 - [66] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Originally by: doyouneedcash don't you agree that the t2 BPOs have a finite production capacity? what happens if eve expands to 500,000 players? will you still say "oh to bad so sad" when we are working off of 8 bpos for 500k people? what about when eve gets to 1,000,000 people? still the same answer? do you see where i am going with this? Your figures are wrong, there is far more than 8 prints of any given t2 module/ship. mm no ask a dev
Xendie	Posted - 2005.12.28 00:48:00 - [67] Originally by: Megadon Meh, I largely disagree with the assessment that the tech 2 bpo market place needs fixing. The current system is not perfect, but it is far better than anything proposed thus far. The tech 1 market place is broken in many many ways and even though I don't have any tech 2 bpo's, I think that bringing the ills of the tech 1 market place to the tech 2 world would just break things further, and that's what a lot of these proposals would do. Cap recharger II's is the favorite scape goat everyone always uses as IF it is an accurate representation of the entire situation and it of course is not. It is the exception. how can you even remotely say that anything about the tech2 is working? lets just start with the 7 BPO's given to one player alone. i believe that is enough to start with. -------- Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
LNX Flocki	Posted - 2005.12.28 00:49:00 - [68] Originally by: doyouneedcash 8 PEOPLE (at the most on the BPOs that were introduced first) HAVE CONTROL OF EACH t2 MARKET DON'T YOU SEE THAT AS A PROBLEM I'd be worried if this figure was true, but it is not. Oveur has posted on this issue several times and he said there were a lot more BPOs in circulation. Yes I want more BPOs too but it's nothing to whine about. Personally I'm waiting for the R&D overhaul, it'll sort itself then. The T2 markets depends on short supply and that's a good thing. A good part of the game would be ruined if this would change. All they gotta do is make slightly more BPOs available to accomodate for the increasing player base and the BPs should be distributed through a reward system instead of through one based on chance.
Filan	Posted - 2005.12.28 00:53:00 - [69] i dunno i made some good money over night by putting some T1 launchers for sale in a system right off an entry system to Pureblind. figure right off a major pvp area there is bound to be business and pvpers are hugely rich so i charge more then i do in the core of empire. if i could find a way to safely sneak deeper into pureblind in a Badger Mk2 to the nearest NPC base im sure i could make a killing.
Namarus	Posted - 2005.12.28 00:58:00 - [70] I think your missing the main point. The t2 manufacturers don't set the price. The players do. Originally cap rechargers came out relarively cheap by prices now a days. What happened? Well resellers bought ALL the rechargers, and then put them out on sale at higher prices! If you were a manufacturer what would you do? They increased the price. While I don't like the price of cap recharger II, I don't want to see more bpos of any type of t2 bpo put on the market. The people who buy these bpos pay billions for them, and they should rightly have exclusive access to those profits that they deserve.
Vince Draken	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:00:00 - [71] Originally by: LNX Flocki Originally by: doyouneedcash 8 PEOPLE (at the most on the BPOs that were introduced first) HAVE CONTROL OF EACH t2 MARKET DON'T YOU SEE THAT AS A PROBLEM I'd be worried if this figure was true, but it is not. Those are the accurate numbers... Unless you cant figure out there are 160 Hac bpo's in total... The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
doyouneedcash	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:02:00 - [72] Originally by: Namarus I think your missing the main point. The t2 manufacturers don't set the price. The players do. Originally cap rechargers came out relarively cheap by prices now a days. What happened? Well resellers bought ALL the rechargers, and then put them out on sale at higher prices! If you were a manufacturer what would you do? They increased the price. While I don't like the price of cap recharger II, I don't want to see more bpos of any type of t2 bpo put on the market. The people who buy these bpos pay billions for them, and they should rightly have exclusive access to those profits that they deserve. so because someone SPECULATES (ie invests into someting they THINK will be profitable, but does not always end up being so) into something they SHOULD get paid? By that logic it would only be a matter of time before the person with the most money would end up buying everything because he "should get paid"
Vandar Broheem	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:02:00 - [73] Edited by: Vandar Broheem on 28/12/2005 01:05:36 Quote: The people who buy these bpos pay billions for them, and they should rightly have exclusive access to those profits that they deserve. If you actually could buy the T2 BPOs the problem would not exist. Instead they are given away by chance of the draw and in very limited quanities thus producing an artifical supply limitation by allowing monopolies to exist.
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:07:00 - [74] Originally by: Vandar Broheem Edited by: Vandar Broheem on 28/12/2005 01:05:36 Quote: The people who buy these bpos pay billions for them, and they should rightly have exclusive access to those profits that they deserve. If you actually could buy the T2 BPOs the problem would not exist. Instead they are given away by chance of the draw and in very limited quanities thus producing an artifical supply limitation by allowing monopolies to exist. Well, monopolies exist in EVE, its not a total free market. Get used to it, its how things are. You could always convince all the players to not buy tech2 to press prices down, but I doubt that will happen. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Turin	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:08:00 - [75] Originally by: Akarah Siminova Whats so wrong with the t1 market? Its competative? Margins are slim? If thats the case, then it sounds like the real world to me. HEY ATTN PRICE GAUGERS: Most products in the real world have a VERY slim price / profit margin. So you wont get any sympathy from me if a more "open" T2 market effects your peices. --------------------------------------------------------------------
Vandar Broheem	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:17:00 - [76] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Originally by: Vandar Broheem Edited by: Vandar Broheem on 28/12/2005 01:05:36 Quote: The people who buy these bpos pay billions for them, and they should rightly have exclusive access to those profits that they deserve. If you actually could buy the T2 BPOs the problem would not exist. Instead they are given away by chance of the draw and in very limited quanities thus producing an artifical supply limitation by allowing monopolies to exist. Well, monopolies exist in EVE, its not a total free market. Get used to it, its how things are. You could always convince all the players to not buy tech2 to press prices down, but I doubt that will happen. The point is still being missed that the monopoly here is not player created. If the BPOs were availible on the market for all who wished to buy but the price was too high, or it cost too much to manufacture or it took to many skills to build sp that only a select few could or would accomplish it then yes we would have a valid monopoly. While that would still be undesireable at least anybody could do something about it if they invested enough time in the endeavor. But it's not like that, our monopolies are created by the fact the BPOs are given out by pure chance. It may seem fair since a relative noob or a 2 year vet could both recieve the T2 BPO, but it wrecks the market. Maybe if it were like somebody else suggested. Keep the current lotto system but 30-90 days latter add the BPOs to the market for anybody to buy. That way the T2 winners still get to monopolize off the initial novelty purchases and get the BPO for free and we can keep up some healthy competition in the market once they release fully.
Einheriar Ulrich	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:18:00 - [77] I dont mind people making money....but make t2 ppo's dependent on merrit of hard work...not by chance...and introduce the original bpo,bpc into the market after say 6-8 months, then the t2 holders had ample of time to get rich. And not as it is now a fat cow, who never goes slim ;)
Agent Kenshin	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:22:00 - [78] I agree that 8 BPOs are not enough of a certain items. BUt there are 20 HAC bpos in game. Lots of other items are not as useful and people are ditching the BPOs left and right. Those dont need an increase because the market is already flooded. A lot of the problems you are seeing is the outrageous build time on certain things. Yes we should increase the number a little bit to compensate for the increase in demand. But when everyone comes back and starts whining again cause the HAC bpo owners got more HAC bpos i dont want to hear it. Not everyone is suited to produce t2. There is no garuntee that if we introduce more ships bpos that they arent just gonna go back to the same people that already have one of the bpos. More bpos dont mean more manufacturers some may sell them to the current manufacturers for instant isk and what happens the same people control the market. There is no way to prevent this. It is freedom of will and freedom sell to who ever. Originally by: MAXSuicide only carebears call pvpers 'greifers' ehehehh....
Drilla	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:23:00 - [79] 1 T2 BPO pr. 1000 active accounts. Simple solution. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Agent Kenshin	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:24:00 - [80] Edited by: Agent Kenshin on 28/12/2005 01:26:07 Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich I dont mind people making money....but make t2 ppo's dependent on merrit of hard work...not by chance...and introduce the original bpo,bpc into the market after say 6-8 months, then the t2 holders had ample of time to get rich. And not as it is now a fat cow, who never goes slim ;) Theres a really big problem with doing that. You will make the component manufacturers just as rich as the tech 2 producers and you will have a huge influx of POS going up everywhere. Once again you cant introduce the t2 bpos onto the market. Not only that it will cause an imbalance again. Edit. Everything affects everything in this game. Changing one thing means everything will have to be changed. Originally by: MAXSuicide only carebears call pvpers 'greifers' ehehehh....
Vandar Broheem	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:28:00 - [81] Quote: More bpos dont mean more manufacturers some may sell them to the current manufacturers for instant isk and what happens the same people control the market. There is no way to prevent this. It is freedom of will and freedom sell to who ever. True some people will instantly sell their BPOs for cash, mostly those that have no interest in producing. However there are, I'm willing to bet, thousands of people (myself included) that would begin imediate production if they accquired a T2 BPO. That being said if they seed 100 more BPOs and only 5 people keep them and start producing that is still more competetion and could quite possibly lower prices.
Gonada	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:31:00 - [82] the poeple that have the t2 stuff, or are part of the alliances/ corps that have them will of course have the opposite opinion of the other 98% of us. and for that exact reason, thats why the bpo lottery shgould be changed. -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Filan	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:39:00 - [83] Originally by: Turin Originally by: Akarah Siminova Whats so wrong with the t1 market? Its competative? Margins are slim? If thats the case, then it sounds like the real world to me. HEY ATTN PRICE GAUGERS: Most products in the real world have a VERY slim price / profit margin. So you wont get any sympathy from me if a more "open" T2 market effects your peices. problem in EVE is producers need to make all the profit up front. in the real world we have the service side of the post sale where the real profit is made. however one doesnt exactly sell those ripoff service plans like they do at Circuit City on a set of missle launchers. or tech support on their cruisers.
Vandar Broheem	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:43:00 - [84] Edited by: Vandar Broheem on 28/12/2005 01:44:12 Originally by: Filan Originally by: Turin Originally by: Akarah Siminova Whats so wrong with the t1 market? Its competative? Margins are slim? If thats the case, then it sounds like the real world to me. HEY ATTN PRICE GAUGERS: Most products in the real world have a VERY slim price / profit margin. So you wont get any sympathy from me if a more "open" T2 market effects your peices. problem in EVE is producers need to make all the profit up front. in the real world we have the service side of the post sale where the real profit is made. however one doesnt exactly sell those ripoff service plans like they do at Circuit City on a set of missle launchers. or tech support on their cruisers. Hmm you know that's an interesting idea. As long as you have the skills to equip the appropriate repairers you could sell a service contract for ships. That way, especially for noobs, they could bring the ship to you for repairs when they can't afford to fix or don't have the skills.
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:50:00 - [85] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 28/12/2005 01:53:32 I only played eve off on for a couple years. No major player. But to the original poster I have this fuel for your argument. Last night during down time I thought to myself: "hmmm since the release of cap recharger II BPOs the number of users on a typical night has atleast doubled. How many extra cap recharge II BPOs have entered the game during that time?" And my conclusion was that when they implied they would never rerelease tech II BPOs they did the game a disservice. Because its a release strategy that doesnt take into account an expanding player base. Now im not saying they should destroy cartels by flooding. However they need to remove the implicit idea that a tech II BPO base wont be expanded to take into account an expanding player base. I mean how long before the amount of cap recharger II BPOs released into a 6k average night population isnt enough? 25k players? 30k players? Now?
Agent Kenshin	Posted - 2005.12.28 01:59:00 - [86] Just becuase those who have the BPOs will have the opposite opinion is one not because of profit. Some simple rules of EVE economy. You cant release the t2 bpos to the market. It will cause the entire market to crash. Because if everyone had t2 bpos the components needed for them would go up in price exponentially because only a limited number of component manufactures exist in EVE and they sell based on contracts to the T2 manufacturers. This would force them to sell on the open market and because teh demand for them would be so high the price of teh components would rise. Not only that it would raise the price of the t2 as well. Massive market crash would be on the way. Only way do it is to slowly regulate the number of T2 bpos introduced into the game. Thats why there are only 20 now of some. Because at the time there wasnt the infrastructure to support 100 t2 bpos of teh same type. Everything has an effect on everything else in this game. Especially in the area of t2 manufacturing. Final thoughts before i leave this thread for a while. Because the market is dynamic and ever changing; it is a long chain. If you are to change on link in the chain you dont know exactly what will happen to the rest of the links. This is why CCP doesnt know what to do. If they introduce something radical without thinking of what could happen it would ruin the game. Have faith in CCP. A problem cant be solved just by a simple suggestion all the time. Originally by: MAXSuicide only carebears call pvpers 'greifers' ehehehh....
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.12.28 02:03:00 - [87] The whole BPO system freaking sucks. It's really putting a damper on me wanting to play this GREAT game. Wish more Devs would reply to threads like these too. So I can have some information on whats going on with BPOS, why they're like this, and why it is it must be like this.
Taizu Lilith	Posted - 2005.12.28 02:04:00 - [88] There should be BPOs relating to the number of researchers out there I am a researcher, and I am upset that because of the setup, there is a very small chance that I will ever discover anything this should change, I Think, seed BPOs in relation to number of researchers
Vince Draken	Posted - 2005.12.28 02:10:00 - [89] Add to market ever = no ADD Auctions for Research Points = Yes Add BPC's for certain story line missions = YES IMO, that would solve it all. Too bad CCP has their head in the sand as so they can hook up ppl they want with the bpo's. The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such.
doyouneedcash	Posted - 2005.12.28 02:11:00 - [90] yes, a dev response to this, and or their rough outline to deal with T2 BPOs would be nice :)

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