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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.12.27 22:55:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Vandar Broheem
Originally by: Akarah Siminova
Whats so wrong with the t1 market? Its competative? Margins are slim?
The only people that actively complain about the T1 market are those that see the huge profits the T2 guys are making.
T1 is exactly as it should be, lots of competition and reasonable mark-ups of 50-100% instead of the 1000-2000% the T2 holders enjoy.
Because of the age of your character I give you the benefit of the doubt. However, get a grip. Pick up a 1 run bpc of a battleship, then aquire the minerals to build one, then sell it with a 50-100% mark-up 
With a tier 2 bs, you stand to earn a couple mill. And no, mining minerals yourself doesnt mean they are FREE and got no value.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2005.12.27 22:56:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Agent Kenshin on 27/12/2005 22:56:37
I agree with certain points.
 We dont have enough BPOs to supply all the demand that there is currently out there. This is seen with the larger t2 ships. More people able to use tech 2 we may need a few more bpos. I dont see putting 12 more bpos out a year per t2 item as helping anything but turning t2 into nothing more than tech 1 market.
Those who sit on BPOs get off them and sell them!!!!!! Dont sit on them and not build. Thats what makes supply even lower and the price keeps going up.
Tech 2 is not always better than tech 1 now. The new MK2 cruisers and ships help to balance everything out and make certain ships better for PvP.
Introducing more bpos is going to help even out the supply of items and lower the prices slowly but as it stands now CCP should not get invovled. By doing so will destroy what is unique in the game. You could get lucky or you couldnt get lucky. If you want to start out in the game in production look towards the POS market. Components and advanced materials should be on the rise again. T2 manufacturers will be needing these.
The game shouldnt allow everyone to do all the production from tech 1 to tech 2 including POS and building your own components unless you have a super dedicated group of people. A lot of the problems now lie in dedication. If you have the will to do it go out and do it. Start out small work your way up. T2 ammo manufacturing will be a big business to get into now BPOs arent steep and with a certain amount of deication you can get your peice of the pie. Although if CCP fixes some of the things with the t2 ammo it will be bigger.
Everyone wants instant isk or cheaper modules. Well there is no instant gradification in this game and thats the way it should be. If you dont like the way it is then the games not for you.
Originally by: MAXSuicide
only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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doyouneedcash
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Posted - 2005.12.27 22:56:00 -
[33]
Originally by: High Sierra
Originally by: Garreck
Just one problem...
You're not going to convince me that the business savvy people wouldn't do their best to buy up and control all the BPOs...whether 20 or 40 or 100 were seeded.
And they'd still control the market.
Wealth builds on wealth...put more resources into the system (more BPOs in this case) and the smart people are still going to do what they can to acquire them. I don't build...I do combat. If I magically got a bpo because more were seeded, I'd have no use for it but to sell to the highest bidder...and who's that bidder gonna be? The rich guys who got rich because they control all the blueprints. Even if I were a producer myself, I'm sure someone could offer me "the right price" and I'd sell.
That's the nature of a player-run economy, I suppose. The business savvy get rich...and use those riches to gain yet more.
Now, that merely addresses the "who has what" issue. From an "availability" issue, I can see the demand for more BPOs. As it stands right now with production time for tech 2 ships, not only do you have to pay out the nose for one, you've got to pray that there's even one available on the market. More blueprints to produce from would breathe a bit of life into tech 2 ship production.
I understand RAMtech drops are also a concern for tech 2 ship production...
no flame here, but you're happy to live in that kind of market are you?
and I completely agree with you re T2 ships. and Ram.
then BPCs need to be able for purchase from research agents at the very least would you not agree?
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Cerwyn Taraman
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Posted - 2005.12.27 22:58:00 -
[34]
As far as Tech 1 profits, yes they do really suck. Battleship prices on tier 2 have dropped to like 100 million while costs on building the ship are roughly 90-92 million depending on how much you can get the minerals for. Making an 8% profit isn't exactly what i'd call stellar. The problem is too many people in EVE think that minerals are "free" if they mined them, they don't understand the concept of time = money.
CT
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MysticNZ
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Posted - 2005.12.27 22:58:00 -
[35]
You can buy a T2 cap charger for 25m, or you can buy the best named for 5m and there is only a %2 difference.
If you want it to stop, stop buying their **** and they will lower the price.
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Vandar Broheem
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Posted - 2005.12.27 22:58:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Vandar Broheem on 27/12/2005 23:02:07
Originally by: Megadon
50%- 100% mark up in tech 1 with reasonable competition? That's just not the way it is. perhaps a few items in a few isolated markets.
Look at the tech 1 ship marketplace and tell me people are making a reasonable profit selling tier 2 battleships for 100 million isk.
and
Quote:
Because of the age of your character I give you the benefit of the doubt. However, get a grip. Pick up a 1 run bpc of a battleship, then aquire the minerals to build one, then sell it with a 50-100% mark-up
Okay I can agree that there are quite a few things that there simply isn't a huge profit in building, if any. I have purcased a couple 1 run BPCs for BSs. Both cost me around 10 million LESS to build than to buy and I purchased all my mins from a mining corp and the market. IF I had sold them I would have been extremely pleased to make 5-10 million off of them which is only a 10% mark-up at best.
However were does it say that you absolutely MUST make double your money or even 150% of your build cost. At T1 build times and costs making 2-3 million per BS is just fine.
I think all our points here is that no BPO of any tech level should be a ISK printing device and that is exactly what T2 is right now.
With enough T2 BPOs seeded even the arguement of mega-corps buying them all falls apart because eventually even they are going to tire of buying their 100th CPRII BPO for some outrageous price and just let them sit on market or escrow. Eventually the prices WILL drop if the BPOs are seeded like they should be.
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High Sierra
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:00:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Agent Kenshin
Edited by: Agent Kenshin on 27/12/2005 22:56:37
I agree with certain points.
We dont have enough BPOs to supply all the demand that there is currently out there. This is seen with the larger t2 ships. More people able to use tech 2 we may need a few more bpos. I dont see putting 12 more bpos out a year per t2 item as helping anything but turning t2 into nothing more than tech 1 market.
Those who sit on BPOs get off them and sell them!!!!!! Dont sit on them and not build. Thats what makes supply even lower and the price keeps going up.
Tech 2 is not always better than tech 1 now. The new MK2 cruisers and ships help to balance everything out and make certain ships better for PvP.
Introducing more bpos is going to help even out the supply of items and lower the prices slowly but as it stands now CCP should not get invovled. By doing so will destroy what is unique in the game. You could get lucky or you couldnt get lucky. If you want to start out in the game in production look towards the POS market. Components and advanced materials should be on the rise again. T2 manufacturers will be needing these.
The game shouldnt allow everyone to do all the production from tech 1 to tech 2 including POS and building your own components unless you have a super dedicated group of people. A lot of the problems now lie in dedication. If you have the will to do it go out and do it. Start out small work your way up. T2 ammo manufacturing will be a big business to get into now BPOs arent steep and with a certain amount of deication you can get your peice of the pie. Although if CCP fixes some of the things with the t2 ammo it will be bigger.
Everyone wants instant isk or cheaper modules. Well there is no instant gradification in this game and thats the way it should be. If you dont like the way it is then the games not for you.
totally agree with you which is why I said only open it up a bit more, not flood the market with T2 bpo's.
all I want to see is a bit more competition in the T2 market because there isnt any atm.
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Akarah Siminova
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:07:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Megadon
Edited by: Megadon on 27/12/2005 22:40:16
Originally by: Akarah Siminova
Whats so wrong with the t1 market? Its competative? Margins are slim?
BPC's are so plentiful and easy to make that many use them as toilet paper.
Copy times are too low and copies are too cheap to produce, an increase is justified, agreed. Originally by: Megadon
This encourages more people build something at a cost that is actually higher than what you could purchase the same item in the marketplace for and discourages manufacturing and reduces real profit.
You lost me.
Originally by: Megadon
The barrier to entry is nothing or extremely low
Add more skill requirements to weed out the uncommited.
Originally by: Megadon
So you have people building and selling items at or below their true cost. Or people do not factor in their time to produce because BPO's and BPC's are so plentiful.
Those are just a couple but it's enough because they have a huge impact.
Huge impact? If they sell below cost, they are annoying, but its not like their business and influence grows over time is it? The influx of t1 items from npc drops is a problem admittedly, but if someone sells below cost, just buy their item and refine it or resell it.
Originally by: Megadon
If you have a tech 2 BPO, you're not going to engage in the above practices because the barrier to entry into the tech 2 marketplace is very high and BPO's are very rare. It also takes longer to copy a BPO that it does to build the item (thank god) so the maximum profit comes from building and selling vs copying the bpo and selling copies.
I'm pretty sure copying t1 bpos takes significantly longer than building from them on a run for run basis.
Originally by: Megadon
You're going to pay attention and factor in a lot of things that you don't in the tech 1 world because a lot more is at stake and a lot more is involved in building tech 2 items.
You have a lot of casual builders on the tech 1 market that just want to dump product to generate cash flow and they really don't know if, or how much profit they're making. It screws up the market. You don't have that in the tech 2 markets.
Again I dont think the casual builders make much of an impact. Additionally, I think many t2 builders are "casual" but just happen to have exclusive rights to produce high demand limited supply products so you never see how disorganized or unknowning they are.
Originally by: Megadon
Do these things make the tech 1 market completely broken? no, it doesn't but it does prevent it from being as healthy as it could be.
Agreed, it doesnt ruin but does impact it.... just not in any serious way. The biggest problem might be the influx of "free" npc dropped items that people just want to get rid of well below mineral cost. This leaves certain items pointless to build.
In conclusion:
Remove normal items from the drop tables of npcs, invigorating the t1 production markets.
Add greater degrees of specialization in t1 production through skill tree developments.
Increase copy times for all bpos, especially t1 bpos. Make the builder NEED the bpo to be competative.
Reduce barriers to entry of t2 production markets by seeding t2 bpos (at high prices) into the npc market some time after initial introduction (the lottery winners get their huge initial profits) and a multibillion isk bpo. Allow the t2 market to thus self regulate by increasing supply, not only increasing price.
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000Hunter000
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:08:00 -
[39]
R&D agents should start to offer limited run T2 bpc's in exchange for RP's (and perhaps other stuff like it is now with the regular agents)
if this is done carefully, it will make prices for T2 items a little better but not so much that T2 becomes as common as T1, lets be honest.
on a bit OT note, Offcourse the ram shortage is rediculous now and not helping, i found 1 RAM SS tech in my region for 600k, just the 1, there were no others. now if the damn things weren't so big i would be more then willing to get some from other regions.
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:09:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Vandar Broheem
With enough T2 BPOs seeded even the arguement of mega-corps buying them all falls apart because eventually even they are going to tire of buying their 100th CPRII BPO for some outrageous price and just let them sit on market or escrow. Eventually the prices WILL drop if the BPOs are seeded like they should be.
More bpo's of the same type just allow you to build more. As long as there is a demand and people buy a the set price, the price will stay. If people stop buy the price will fall, quite obvious. And as someone did mention regarding cap rechargers, there is named ones that is just 2% less and cost far less.
T2 should never become common. Its an option, a choice, its not a birth right. All this focus on the t2 cap rechargers make people believe every t2 bpo is just as profitable, its not. Some items are more in demand than others, that + the long build time of certain t2 modules and ships ups the price because people are willing to pay what it cost.
Many t2 producers have tried to sell their products cheaper. You know what happens? Some people buy as much as they can and put up to re-sell at much higher prices. That happens, and why should the producers settle for this when they can sell at those prices themselfs?
I bet CCP does have an eye on supply and demand when it comes to tech2, and will seed bpo's as they see fit. However dont look out for special announces regarding this.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Calenth
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:10:00 -
[41]
T2 lottery should dynamically release new BPO's in proportion to growth of paid accounts.
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Lady Arlita
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:24:00 -
[42]
I don't do much production or research but why not instead of BPos produce 100 run BpC's and produce more of them off the current system?
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Megadon
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:36:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Akarah Siminova
Problem solved.
Losers = current t2 monopolies or oligopolies.
Winners = everyone else.
Why the hell aren't we running this show!!??
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:36:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Lady Arlita
I don't do much production or research but why not instead of BPos produce 100 run BpC's and produce more of them off the current system?
The market as whole benefit more from steady suppliers rather than random and scarse.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Lady Arlita
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:43:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Lady Arlita on 27/12/2005 23:44:01
Edited by: Lady Arlita on 27/12/2005 23:43:45
Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
Originally by: Lady Arlita
I don't do much production or research but why not instead of BPos produce 100 run BpC's and produce more of them off the current system?
The market as whole benefit more from steady suppliers rather than random and scarse.
Many BPcs would be sold but some could drop through and be sold by smaller suppliers looking for isk at more competative prices.
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Tasuric Orka
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:44:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
Originally by: Vandar Broheem
With enough T2 BPOs seeded even the arguement of mega-corps buying them all falls apart because eventually even they are going to tire of buying their 100th CPRII BPO for some outrageous price and just let them sit on market or escrow. Eventually the prices WILL drop if the BPOs are seeded like they should be.
More bpo's of the same type just allow you to build more. As long as there is a demand and people buy a the set price, the price will stay. If people stop buy the price will fall, quite obvious. And as someone did mention regarding cap rechargers, there is named ones that is just 2% less and cost far less.
T2 should never become common. Its an option, a choice, its not a birth right. All this focus on the t2 cap rechargers make people believe every t2 bpo is just as profitable, its not. Some items are more in demand than others, that + the long build time of certain t2 modules and ships ups the price because people are willing to pay what it cost.
Many t2 producers have tried to sell their products cheaper. You know what happens? Some people buy as much as they can and put up to re-sell at much higher prices. That happens, and why should the producers settle for this when they can sell at those prices themselfs?
If i'd get my hands on the blueprints and had the ability to produce T2 items i would simply keep churning out cheap (in comparison) T2 items, spread them around, make sales outside the ingame market. Force others to sell for cheaper.. Simply because i can, and hate this kind of money whoring.
Of course, i couldnt keep this up forever.. More people need to produce, i hope the devs agree.
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Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:49:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Agent Kenshin on 27/12/2005 23:49:19
Even making sales outside the ingame market wont help people will take them and resell them for mark ups. And quite honestly reselling is a perfectly legitimate business in EVE. The game doesnt limit you to what you can and cant do outside piracy and cheating teh game mechanics. So why should CCP step in and kill a perfectly good profession? Changing things to radically would destroy t2 producers.
Originally by: MAXSuicide
only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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Lickity Split
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:50:00 -
[48]
how many more of these posts do we have to see? i dont own any bpos and this is just getting old to see the same complaints over and over. GET OVER IT, OR QUIT!
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doyouneedcash
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Posted - 2005.12.27 23:58:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Lickity Split
how many more of these posts do we have to see? i dont own any bpos and this is just getting old to see the same complaints over and over. GET OVER IT, OR QUIT!
so you are 100% fine with 8-20 people (who are not elected) dictating the entire market of a t2 good?
you do know that over 100,000 people play this game right?
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Vince Draken
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Posted - 2005.12.28 00:02:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Lickity Split
how many more of these posts do we have to see? i dont own any bpos and this is just getting old to see the same complaints over and over. GET OVER IT, OR QUIT!
onoes!
Here's a thought, dont click on the ******* thread if you dont want to read it.
Damn, what a novel idea.
The above thoughts and statements are IC and should be taken as such. |
Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2005.12.28 00:06:00 -
[51]
Originally by: doyouneedcash
Originally by: Lickity Split
how many more of these posts do we have to see? i dont own any bpos and this is just getting old to see the same complaints over and over. GET OVER IT, OR QUIT!
so you are 100% fine with 8-20 people (who are not elected) dictating the entire market of a t2 good?
you do know that over 100,000 people play this game right?
I would like to know where you get your figures from. Do you have any facts and evidence to back your claims up with rather than lose figures pulled out of the thin air? or maybe hot gas leaking from some crevice?
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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doyouneedcash
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Posted - 2005.12.28 00:08:00 -
[52]
Edited by: doyouneedcash on 28/12/2005 00:16:26
Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
Originally by: doyouneedcash
Originally by: Lickity Split
how many more of these posts do we have to see? i dont own any bpos and this is just getting old to see the same complaints over and over. GET OVER IT, OR QUIT!
so you are 100% fine with 8-20 people (who are not elected) dictating the entire market of a t2 good?
you do know that over 100,000 people play this game right?
I would like to know where you get your figures from. Do you have any facts and evidence to back your claims up with rather than lose figures pulled out of the thin air? or maybe hot gas leaking from some crevice?
it has been stated by the devs that they have indeed passed over the 100k user account mark, and they have indeed stated the 8-20 BPO seeded. I
ok here is a link for the ammount of accounts..this is over 80k paying accounts, and then add another 15k non paying trial accounts
http://www.eve-db.com/
and for the t2 BPOs id have to dig through many many dev logs to find that, but i think everyone here will agree that the first t2 bpos were seeded with 8, and thenewer t2 bpos were seeded with 20
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Vandar Broheem
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Posted - 2005.12.28 00:13:00 -
[53]
Quote:
Many t2 producers have tried to sell their products cheaper. You know what happens? Some people buy as much as they can and put up to re-sell at much higher prices. That happens, and why should the producers settle for this when they can sell at those prices themselfs?
All that proves is exactly what we have been saying, that there is no where near enough competition in the T2 market. Get enough people building and the buying and reselling will stop dead in it's tracks. Who in their right mind is going to buy 100 T2 items to resell at a higher price when it may be just minutes before the next run gets done from the next person building.
Yeah I'm gonna rush right out and buy 100 Cap charger II's at 5 million a piece so I can put them on the market for 10 million a piece when there are still a couple hundred out there selling for 5 million.
If I see something on the T1 market I think is over-priced I can go buy a BPO and start selling them for what I think they should be sold, but you can't do that with T2 unless you are one of the lucky few to get a BPO (don't even get me started on those that have gotten 2-3 or even 7 of them by "luck" ).
T2 market now matter which item or ship you choose is totally foobar based on the simple fact there is no competeion due to artifical limitation on supply, nothing anybody can say will change that fact.
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Venda Karn
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Posted - 2005.12.28 00:14:00 -
[54]
I really do not have anything constructive to add to this topic. I just wanted to say that I find it very fascinating. What other online world has such a complex market, capable of crashing or affecting all players? What kind of history will this make in the Eve universe?
What about EQ's market or even Ultima Online? Was there ever really a potential for this kind of depression, possible for the giant corps to be 'giant' corps, and monopolize the market? This creates excellent drama, which I am happy to be a part of. (I feel like those old TNT commercials...) No other game has this aspect to it. The ability for 20 accounts to have such an incredible voice over 100k. I suspect CCP will want to do something eventually. I just hope they donĘt feel they ōhaveö to do something.
These T2 owners are not playing with my real world income, though they are part of creating a great story. Capable of starting debates such as this thread. They are not even really impacting my ability to excel. Eve-Online allows the best to include more then just high powered modules. I like to be involved with something where the outcome is not 100% every time. Jumping into a low sec belt, sizing up that lone ship... Can I take him? This same sense seems to seep into many aspects of the Eve universe.
Not knowing exactly where the market will be in 2 or 3 months is also interesting, keeps me guessing. In my understanding tier 2 equipment was not meant to be as available as normal gear on purposeą I like to think of it as high end game content that while limited, is available to all players pretty much regardless of when they started. Some titles require several RL months of solid game time to see and experience the ęuberĘ gear at the end.
I suspect I donĘt even have a third of the time in Eve as I do in other titles. (Not including skill training offlineą) Yet, I can purchase a large amount of T2 items that I might want to use. Do I? No way, most cost too much money :p But am I limiting myself? I do not feel that the game is limiting me. I have yet to lose to a NPC. PC? Another time, another threadą Let supply/demand work for you. Why fight against it?
Just my 2 million ISK (adjusted for inflation)
Jedi, remember the Jedią
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Mortus Harbinger
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Posted - 2005.12.28 00:19:00 -
[55]
In the real world some of the current T2 manufacturers would be shut down for their ridiculous overpricing.
Why can't we have some sort of market regulation? The self-regulation model has been tried and, due to the greed of a few (most likely Amarr) large corporations, has failed miserably. I think there should be a ceiling set on the price that can be charged for all T2 items. This could be calculated based on average cost of components and ore. If manufacturers were allowed a markup of, for example, 100% .. they would still be raking in the ISK, but without ripping off the Eve community as they appear to do on some items.
Mort
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Froggid
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Posted - 2005.12.28 00:23:00 -
[56]
I have contacted a few of the Hulk producers about how much they would charge to produce me a barge if I provide all of the raw materials. One actually had the gall to state his price as 280million. Not a half-bad profit for 18 hours of production time.
I guess I will just sit on my materials for 6 months until someone gets bored enough, or runs out of RAM and actually produces a BPC.
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Ichabod Dirange
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Posted - 2005.12.28 00:24:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Megadon
Originally by: Akarah Siminova
Problem solved.
Losers = current t2 monopolies or oligopolies.
Winners = everyone else.
Why the hell aren't we running this show!!??
'Cause EVE wasn't meant to be a socialist paradise?
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Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2005.12.28 00:25:00 -
[58]
Originally by: doyouneedcash
Edited by: doyouneedcash on 28/12/2005 00:16:26
Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
Originally by: doyouneedcash
Originally by: Lickity Split
how many more of these posts do we have to see? i dont own any bpos and this is just getting old to see the same complaints over and over. GET OVER IT, OR QUIT!
so you are 100% fine with 8-20 people (who are not elected) dictating the entire market of a t2 good?
you do know that over 100,000 people play this game right?
I would like to know where you get your figures from. Do you have any facts and evidence to back your claims up with rather than lose figures pulled out of the thin air? or maybe hot gas leaking from some crevice?
it has been stated by the devs that they have indeed passed over the 100k user account mark, and they have indeed stated the 8-20 BPO seeded. I
ok here is a link for the ammount of accounts..this is over 80k paying accounts, and then add another 15k non paying trial accounts
http://www.eve-db.com/
and for the t2 BPOs id have to dig through many many dev logs to find that, but i think everyone here will agree that the first t2 bpos were seeded with 8, and thenewer t2 bpos were seeded with 20
100k accounts, yes. 100k players, no. Is it right for those 20 people to dictate who gets what and who doesnt. DAMN right it is. Thats the game dont like it leave. This is CCPs game and when they start to curve away from their dream the game will become just like everyother MMO.
A better reason to increase bpos is that supply is not keeping up with demand. Thats better than people whining on the forums because the price of a cap 2 or HAC is too high. Or in this case whining because only 20 people control the market. And 100k accounts doesnt mean that 100k characters can fly HACs or use every module in teh game.
Originally by: MAXSuicide
only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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Uncauzi
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Posted - 2005.12.28 00:25:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Agent Kenshin
Edited by: Agent Kenshin on 27/12/2005 23:49:19
Even making sales outside the ingame market wont help people will take them and resell them for mark ups. And quite honestly reselling is a perfectly legitimate business in EVE. The game doesnt limit you to what you can and cant do outside piracy and cheating teh game mechanics. So why should CCP step in and kill a perfectly good profession? Changing things to radically would destroy t2 producers.
It's not a profession, it's a lottery. If it was a profession, really, that people could try and participate in there wouldn't be a debate.
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Froggid
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Posted - 2005.12.28 00:27:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Froggid on 28/12/2005 00:28:18
Quote:
'Cause EVE wasn't meant to be a socialist paradise?
Running a command economy where an oligarchy controls all aspects of T2 construction is closer to a socialst paradise than that guy's suggestion.
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