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How come T2 drones don't have crippling disadvantages?

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Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:19:00 - [1] I equip my Raven with launchers full of furies and my cap recharge goes from 300 seconds to 1,300 effectively negating my tank. I equip my Apoc with tech II pulse crystals, and my megapulse tracking drops to the level of dreadnought beam weapons. So how come drones don't come with an irrational crippling penalty also? I want having a full bay of Vespa IIs to wreak havoc with your targeting resolution. Yeah, I want Berserker IIs to reduce your armour hp or something equally silly. If ammo users get screwed with these penalties, then I want drone users to get screwed too, because as it stands, tech II drones only give benefits over their tech I counterparts with no drawbacks, which according to CCP is wrong.
Berrik Radhok	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:22:00 - [2] Drones die easily-- that's their drawback.
franny	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:25:00 - [3] I thought their AI was the disadvantage I mean they make rocks look smart
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:25:00 - [4] Originally by: Berrik Radhok Drones die easily-- that's their drawback. So do ships with T2 ammo equipped, lol.
Lagar	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:25:00 - [5] yeah but i dont think it would be a good idea to waste firepower on the drones when you can take out the ship controling them instead
Cmdr Patrick	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:29:00 - [6] Meh the missles have the precision banes which pwn anyway...the crystals/other t2 ammo@ the drawbacks.
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:29:00 - [7] Originally by: franny I thought their AI was the disadvantage I mean they make rocks look smart actually, that gives me an idea give the t2 drones AI that sux even more than normal. "what, you DON'T want me to shoot your friends" "but i thought massaging concord with blasters would soothe their weary nerves" "but attacking is so much more fun than retreating" "i don't happen to LIKE getting scooped, ok?" damn, it would be brilliant!
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Cmdr Patrick Meh the missles have the precision banes which pwn anyway errrrr. what?
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:31:00 - [9] This pretty much sums up why getting t2 ammo in its current state into the game, without a precise definition of what it was supposed to do/be, was a mistake. It's going to be a fun thread, bookmarked :) /me grabs popcorn. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. ---
franny	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:35:00 - [10] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: franny I thought their AI was the disadvantage I mean they make rocks look smart actually, that gives me an idea give the t2 drones AI that sux even more than normal. "what, you DON'T want me to shoot your friends" "but i thought massaging concord with blasters would soothe their weary nerves" "but attacking is so much more fun than retreating" "i don't happen to LIKE getting scooped, ok?" damn, it would be brilliant! I think at least 1 is already in
Lorth	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:38:00 - [11] I think that the tech 2 drones are fine. The problem, and its a big problem, is that all or at least the majority of the tech 2 ammo is a waste of isk, skill points, and fitting. Leave the drones alone, its the ammo you should have a problem with and rightfully so. As it is right now, I can't think of a single situation where I would use tech 2 ammo. I certainly won't ever spend more isk on it then regular tech 1 ammo. It came out of the box horribly gimped, and I think still using the same place holder stats that it had when it was put into the DB years ago. So leave the drones alone, they are fine IMO. The ammo however is really a joke compared to all the other tech 2 mods.
Noriath	Posted - 2005.12.31 17:48:00 - [12] Uhhh, drones are the equivalent of tech 2 weapons, not tech 2 ammo, so why the hell should they have disadvantages? If drones took ammo and they would have tech 2 ammo that should have the disadvantages...
Bazman	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:01:00 - [13] The only T2 ammo i would ever consider using is Null Large, Neutron Blasters that essentially become superpowered autocannons? Yes please! Also had an interesting piece of local chat in agil not 5 mins ago: WTS: 5000 units of Barrage M at 2200 per unit. A worthwhile upgrade to your arsenal of destruction. Remember kids, Im an equal oppertunity merchant of death. I sell to everyone! It's In the station! Come take it all! [17:51:01] Bazman > man, why would anyone buy 5000 rounds of ammo for 11mil isk []> Have you seen the end result? Having that extra edge over your enemies is the one thing that keeps people alive. To save your ship I think 11 million is worth it []> Price is not the consideration when PVP is involved. T2 ammo builders obviously don't get out much :P Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Noriath Uhhh, drones are the equivalent of tech 2 weapons, not tech 2 ammo, so why the hell should they have disadvantages? If drones took ammo and they would have tech 2 ammo that should have the disadvantages... qft really... there have never been any named drones or any other way to get more damage out of you drones up until t2... and then with the new RMR stuff. they really aren't the same as the ammo. the second half disagree though - drones should never take ammo. there should be 'special' drones (split damage or whatever) that have the same types of disadvantage as t2 ammo. tbh though - t2 ammo (including missile) still need a lot of looking at. they should definately have been held back. unfortunately the volume of the whining would have been too much for the DEV to bear - so they put them in... now it is just the same volume but different song... __ Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Megadon	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:05:00 - [15] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I equip my Raven with launchers full of furies and my cap recharge goes from 300 seconds to 1,300 effectively negating my tank. I equip my Apoc with tech II pulse crystals, and my megapulse tracking drops to the level of dreadnought beam weapons. So how come drones don't come with an irrational crippling penalty also? I want having a full bay of Vespa IIs to wreak havoc with your targeting resolution. Yeah, I want Berserker IIs to reduce your armour hp or something equally silly. If ammo users get screwed with these penalties, then I want drone users to get screwed too, because as it stands, tech II drones only give benefits over their tech I counterparts with no drawbacks, which according to CCP is wrong. I see that Detaurus has been whispering in your ear.
franny	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Megadon I see that Detaurus has been whispering in your ear. Istvaan is a merc, Detaurus PAID him to whine
Laythun	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Lagar yeah but i dont think it would be a good idea to waste firepower on the drones when you can take out the ship controling them instead wrong. u take out a ships onley weapon, it aint goin nowhere. See Me! http://195.225.8.195:7090/listen.[/url]
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:09:00 - [18] They don't get T2 ammo penalties because they're closer to weapons than ammunition. Unless you mean to turn drones into another infinitely replenishable weapon type, or have us configure their onboard ammo? The T2 ammo types for turrets/launchers were designed to work under specific conditions. Fury missiles for long sieges where tanking is not necessary, precision for dare I say it, "sniping" at longer ranges. But any competent pilot can easily circumvent those disadvantages. Fury missiles for example just reinforce the idea of stacking a few BCUs in your low slot and using a cap injector for recharge.. which a lot of people have been doing for a very long time. In that situation you can carry twice as many fury cruise as you can torpedoes, they have double the explosion velocity and 100m lower sig radius (which negates the advantages of Battlecruisers, Typhoon, and Tempest), with a much higher top speed. All for damage that is comparable to a torpedo. Similarily with Fury Torpedoes, all it takes is a bit of teamwork with target painters. There is not a single ship that can boast such ridiculous damage while tanking fully for several minutes. Precision missiles on the other hand are a joke. They've entirely managed to reverse the benefits of missile rebalance during Cold War. If anything, the tournament yesterday showed how much these things will dominate. Giving a speed penalty to the slowest battleship in the game, which doesn't have optimal or transverse to worry about is a complete and utter joke of balance. Whoever thought of that was obviously listening to all the whiners who complained about not being able to swat small ships with their massive warheads. So much for not having a solo pwnmobile, eh? Turret ammo penalties, while actually consisting of penalties and not meaningless boosts - is not severe enough to stop people from using them. I think you should be complaining about missiles, not drones HG. To bring turrets and drones up to missile effectiveness: - large "precision" ammo would allow you to do full damage to a cruiser, anywhere - heavy drones would fly at 8km/s, be 0.1m3 big and work up to ~200km Meh, im starting to think all this new hardware should be used for implementing turning arcs and missile agility.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:22:00 - [19] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 31/12/2005 18:22:37 Quote: Turret ammo penalties, while actually consisting of penalties and not meaningless boosts - is not severe enough to stop people from using them. Not severe enough? Mega pulse laser II base tracking: 0.027 rad Mega pulse laser II tracking with 8 tech II crystals fitted: 0.0056 rad. Tell me you'd use a pulse laser with that tracking, because yes, the ammo penalties are cumulative, every crystal you stick in reduces your tracking by between 25%-50% for all your guns. That means if you have 8 crystals, you're taking 8 50% tracking penalties stacked on top of one another. Also, it amuses me how many people totally missed the point of my post.
Josarian Lysandor	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:30:00 - [20] For once, I can say T1 FTW. ~Victory is the weakness of the enemy. I began as ActiveX, I am no longer. I became Sobeseki Pawi, I will be no longer.
ThunderGodThor	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 31/12/2005 18:22:37 Quote: Turret ammo penalties, while actually consisting of penalties and not meaningless boosts - is not severe enough to stop people from using them. Not severe enough? Mega pulse laser II base tracking: 0.027 rad Mega pulse laser II tracking with 8 tech II crystals fitted: 0.0056 rad. Tell me you'd use a pulse laser with that tracking, because yes, the ammo penalties are cumulative, every crystal you stick in reduces your tracking by between 25%-50% for all your guns. That means if you have 8 crystals, you're taking 8 50% tracking penalties stacked on top of one another. Also, it amuses me how many people totally missed the point of my post. Quoted for truth. The Tech 2 ammo is a fing joke. Before now Tech 2 didnt have a dissadvatage in using. Now comes along tech 2 ammo ecxaple im a hybrid user and the new short range ammo uses 25% ectra fing cap. WTF its all ready hard enough to use blasters with the amount of cap they use now this??? Also i have saw some where on the forums that not all the "extra bonuses" are working right. Dont know if it is true as i havent tryed any of the new fun ammo. But can we plz get this stuff fixed.
Thesper	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:38:00 - [22] Can someone just confirm for me - are the penalties supposed to be applied per weapon using the t2 ammo, or is this a bug?
Megadon	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:50:00 - [23] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 31/12/2005 18:22:37 Quote: Turret ammo penalties, while actually consisting of penalties and not meaningless boosts - is not severe enough to stop people from using them. Not severe enough? Mega pulse laser II base tracking: 0.027 rad Mega pulse laser II tracking with 8 tech II crystals fitted: 0.0056 rad. Tell me you'd use a pulse laser with that tracking, because yes, the ammo penalties are cumulative, every crystal you stick in reduces your tracking by between 25%-50% for all your guns. That means if you have 8 crystals, you're taking 8 50% tracking penalties stacked on top of one another. Also, it amuses me how many people totally missed the point of my post. I was just teasing about Detaurus... How much DID he pay you? But seriously. Most of the tech 2 ammo is a bit borked with a few exceptions but I don't really see the connection with drones, we all use drones, even Caldari so I really don't want them nerfed. So yeah, CCP needs to look at tech 2 ammo. There should be severe penalties for using it, but not to the point it makes a lot of it unusable.... or maybe that's the point? That it is so specialized, it is not meant to be used on a widespread basis? If that's the case, CCP has been very very successful at implementing it.
R'adeh	Posted - 2005.12.31 18:59:00 - [24] Edited by: R''adeh on 31/12/2005 19:00:27 Dare you touch my drones you stinky Caldari slime!!! Seriously dude, are you drunk or something, 'cause drones are probably the last thing that need to be nerfed atm...T2 ammo on the other hand needs some love "blah blah blah, we killed you, blah blah blah, they killed us, blah blah blah, some more smack, blah blah blah killboard ina..."
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2005.12.31 19:11:00 - [25] So the point of your post was to show how ridiculous adding penalties is, by using drones as an example. Except drones are as foreign a weapon type as you can get. Its very simple really. For something so readily available, I don't think it should be practical enough to use on a daily basis for all your pvping or missioning needs. Its probably why tech 2 guns can still use tech 1 ammo. Taking large guns into consideration, even the horrible tracking is irrelevant if both targets are stationary. I can only hope that a rack of tech 2 ammo fitted large guns can't be used against another ship in all but the rarest of circumstances. PVPing tools they aint, siege tools they are. Might seem irrelevant now, but I would wager that CCP is moving towards more mobile deployables and not less. Situations where using a dreadnaught would be annoying and cumbersome. There is some sort of universally wide obsession with doing ridiculous damage, in order to melt your enemy in seconds. We've all been there, we've all seen the effects.. Some mediocre boosts to tanking won't hold up if everyone is suddenly doing 20% more.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.12.31 19:17:00 - [26] Fine, the pulse crystals that reduce tracking are for sieging stations and not actually for being used in PVP at all. I did not know that and I'll keep that in mind from now on. What are missiles that turn off your capacitor recharge supposed to be used for?
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.12.31 19:23:00 - [27] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/12/2005 19:25:53 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/12/2005 19:25:09 Originally by: Naughty Boy This pretty much sums up why getting t2 ammo in its current state into the game, without a precise definition of what it was supposed to do/be, was a mistake. Mm? It's quite clear what it is - it's the stats introduced as "placeholder" with Castor. And Istvaan, I don't know what the rages are for, but the Banes are for kicking the **** out of other BS with cruise speed and torpedo damage. 'Tis all broken. Either useless or uber. T2 amo should not be adding damage. Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Berrik Radhok	Posted - 2005.12.31 19:32:00 - [28] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Originally by: Berrik Radhok Drones die easily-- that's their drawback. So do ships with T2 ammo equipped, lol. So stop trying to use it for everything? T2 ammo is generally rather specialized for a certain purpose.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.12.31 19:43:00 - [29] Theres nothing wrong with precision missiles, I got hit with a heaping assload of them in the tournament in my cerb, and yeah, they are AWESOME. Their drawback isn't HUGE, but getting self webbed does kind of suck. ------
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.12.31 19:44:00 - [30] From my PoV the fact they deverstate smaller ships, at very high speeds, IS a drawback in that it basically makes a mockery of the missile rebalance. Warning: above post may contain traces of sarcasm. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."

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