I'd rather see a tracking penalty and a DPS increase. As is, where are you expecting these to be used? In nullsec, they will get eaten alive by bombers, in w-space they use too much mass (and can't fit into C1 holes where you really might like a mini-dread).

It seems to me like they will still be PVE boats, which you claimed you wanted to change.

You have got to be joking.

Wasting slots? It's one slot. Your average t1 ship fits 3-5? You really must be shitting me if you think that anyone will give you a ship that requires no tanking modules *at all* while being able to tank any level 4 (some of which can deal nearly 1k dps) without breaking a sweat? I don't bandy the term carebear around much but you sir clearly deserve the title if you do indeed such a severe degree of hand-holding and mollycoddling.

You want my RNI fit? I'll get it for you.

[Raven Navy Issue, Raven Navy Issue fit]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
Large Micro Jump Drive
Large Shield Extender II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Ionic Field Projector I


Vespa II x5
Hammerhead II x5


Zainou 'Snapshot' Cruise Missiles CM-605
Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805
Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

Vitals are: 1200dps - 117km range
80k EHP
top speed of 460m/s + MJD

The thing you must understand is that over a certain level you don't even need to fit tanking modules. Not significantly anyway. While the fit I've posted is pretty much just for running missions it could serve as a guideline for how to fit a golem so here goes

Golem (odyssey 1.1)

[Golem, Golem solo stuff]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Large Micro Jump Drive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
EM Ward Field II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5


Low-grade Crystal Alpha
Low-grade Crystal Beta
Low-grade Crystal Gamma
Low-grade Crystal Delta
Low-grade Crystal Epsilon
Low-grade Crystal Omega
Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805
Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

As you can plainly see only 2 tanking modules + rigs to extend your tanking cycle

vitals are 1100 dps
Top speed 360 + MJD
tank is 51k EHP, 220 sustained tank , 530 burst tank - 4min 30s cap life.

If you need more than this you are terrible at this game. Even without the crystals you should be FINE for any level 4 I can think of.

Hello,

2x fully bonused target painters with cruise missiles.

Come back tomorrow thanks.

Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???

You realize 3 tc, bastion and ambit are all stak nerfed and you are effetively wastign slots?


Anything more than 2 TC alongside bastion is a huge waste because of stack nerfing.

Vargur as in SISI will be INFERIOR to current vargur. The paladin wil be superior, the golem a bit superior and the Kronos.. well that is harder to decide upon (blasters wil be way weaker, but rails stronger).

I have a few suggestions, tell me what you think:

1. Bastion range bonus: 15% optimal, 30% falloff, 20% missile speed, 20% flight time, no stacking penalty

First range is current SISI build, 2nd is with my suggestion. (All data is from EFT, therefore may be incorrect. Also my apologies, if it is hard to read.)

Pulse Paladin with 2x TC II, Conflag/INMF: 31.6km + 18.7km vs 30.8km + 21.3km (-0.8km + 2.6km)
Tachyon Paladin with 2x TC II, INMF: 69.6km + 46.8km vs 67.8km + 53.3km (-1.8km + 6.5km)
Blaster Kronos 1x TC II, 1x TE II, 5% falloff implant, Null: 18.8km + 40.5km vs 18.1km + 45.6km (-0.7km + 5.1km)
Blaster Kronos 1x TC II, 1x TE II, 5% falloff implant, CNAM: 6.7km + 28.9km vs 6.5km vs 32.5km (-0.2km + 3.6km)
Vargur 2x TC II, 5% falloff implant, RF Fusion: 4.6km + 70.8km vs 4.5km vs 80.5km (-0.1km + 9.7km)
Vargur 2x TC II, 1x TE II 5% falloff implant, RF Fusion: 4.7km + 74.8km vs 4.7km + 89.7km (0km + 14.9km)
Golem 2x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II, 5% missile velocity implant, rage torp: 43.4km vs 53.9km (+10.5km)
Golem 2x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II, 5% missile velocity implant, CN torp: 52.1km vs 64.7km (+12.6km)

Paladin stays practically the same, Kronos gets a bit more falloff, Vargur and torp Golem finally see decent increases in range. Bastion gives twice as much falloff than optimal in line with TCs and recently rebalanced TEs. Ships which can (and need to) fit more than 2 range mods are not penalised for that any more.

2. Increase the PG requirement of bastion to 1100.

Tachyon Paladin is getting too good. It will be much better than the Nightmare. Even with this change it could still fit everything but with small compromises. Rest of the ships - including pulse Paladin - are unaffected.

3. Reverse the speed nerf. (It is too big of a nerf for the Vargur.)

Outside of bastion the kronos warps faster, gets more range and a better tank than its t1 counterpart as well as having that mjd bonus. It is an interesting option for fleet work.

Cost is never factored into game balance.

It also will not be needing ECCM for fleet work and at 40km it will be doing more damage thanks to its longer range than on TQ. It is not getting any nerf at all to its guns firepower.

When in bastion the kronos will project blasters all the way out to 90-100km.

And? In most fleets I never get to launch drones anyway.



I sure will be for mega fleets and most likely for cruiser and perhaps even frig fleets.


Rail fit mega fleets it will be better.



Blaster fit it will be doing a lot more damage at 40km.

Before calling other people bad you should probably test these ships before commenting on them because you clearly haven't

10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)

Its 10% better outside of bastion per level. That is a big buff to the range of blasters and their damage projection.


90-100km blasters is crap now?

That is a hull bonus not a bastion bonus.

Again, you would know if you had bothered to test the ship.

Let's say it in very simple terms, since you have clearly not bothered to try the ship on test server.

Blaster Kronos on SiSi performs better than Rail Kronos on TQ in EVERY mission I could compare.

Since to me it performs already better it must mean either you didn't try hard enough on SiSi or that I fly it very badly on TQ.

Have you tried to use cheaper, tech2 version?

Nothing too fancy.

4 guns
DED repper
Reactive hardener (+another hardener on TQ)
3 magstabs
Burst Rig II
2x TC
TE
optionally AB
MJD on SiSi

Fill the rest of the slots to taste

Since you seem to joined this discussion quite recently you may have missed my posts where I state that I'd rather compare performance, not analyze stats and attributes. That said, your fits look solid with one caveat though: on SiSi you are supposed to use MJD. Not every time of course but when targets are at, say, 75km or up then you are better off with than without.

I repeat, while blasters can hit at 100km it doesn't mean you are supposed to shoot at that range. You are supposed to MJD and shoot up close. The art part comes in learning how to slowboat/AB/MWD between those jumps so they are most effective.

And earlier you mentioned you are disappointed. What results did you get so you came to that conclusion?

You can just remove the FAKE 5% capacitor capacity bonus. THis is a bonus that was removed form apocalypse YEARS ago becuasse its a FAKE bonus that shoudlbe rolle din the hull.

If the paladin losses the RANGE bonus, then it become a useless piece of ****, alongside the other marauders.

The range is the only thing that really ins increasing mission speed in this patch.

Dont you get it? Its a bonus tied to a skillt hat wil ALWAYS be level 5.


The bonus does not exist! They Made the ship expecting that cap and simply reduced the base cap by 25%.


Bonuses tied to the t1 skill should never be upon base hull attributes, but upon weapons and modules modifiers.

Omg .. and HOW much cap TACHYONS use compared to the weapons the Kronos use?

Clearly you are the one that does not have a clue. I play this game for 7 years, and there always were a reason for ammar have FAR more capacitor than other races.

And my line of reasoning was EXACLTY the one CCP gave OFFICIALLY when they removed that SAME CAPACITOR BONUS form the old apoc. YES.. SAME BONUS!!!! That the paladin inherited because It was made BEFORE the APOC was changed and the Capacitor bonus was rolled INTO the hull.

So shut up. If you are too young to remember when the APOC was changed you should not emit opinion on this.

Trough tiercide CCP has been removign such bonuses, as in the VAgabond for example. For exact same reason, they are FAKE bonuses!

My experience using all 4 marauders on sisi for pve is as follows:

Paladin: Monster tachyon boat at 60-120km. Beyond that dps starts dropping hard due to low damage crystals. Pulses are also a viable option if going for lower level pve where incoming damage is negligible and neuts are rare (ie lvl4 missions).

Golem: Monster cruise missile boat, does as much dps at 249.9km as the paladin does at 60km. But it's also missiles, so yeah, damage tends to be mitigated a bit but overall it seems better against BC/BS npc's and structures. Top dog for high level pve. Torps should be useful in lvl4's as well using the MJD to get into range.

Kronos: Ok with railguns, I'd say slightly inferior to the Paladin but still pretty good. Range and dps are very similar, the real difference is simply optimal vs falloff. Hard to say how it will play out with a blaster fit in lvl4's. I don't think they quite have the range to work with a MJD.

Vargur: Of no value in high level pve. Even with arty, the range is just too short to out range neut towers and arty is ill suited to lvl4 missions. AC's can be used effectively with the MJD but work heavily in falloff. End result is a rather lackluster pve ship.

The only one I really tested in pvp was the vargur and although it draws the short straw in pve, it's a beast in small gang pvp. That tank combined with good tracking and average dps make for a real monster. An immobile monster with zero EW, but as a dps ship in a small gang with proper tackle, it's nasty. Same could probably be said for a torp golem though I didn't try it. I tried to make a decent Paladin PvP fit but was unimpressed by the results, never even bothered to undock it. I suspect the Kronos is similar. The whole active armor tanking thing just doesn't work very well in my experience.

Edit: I find the whole capacitor argument silly. Look at the overall ship, not individual bonuses. With the rep off, the paladin can fire tachyons with gleam all day without capping out using no cap increasing modules. But it can't run any sort of active tank like that or a prop mod. That makes it similar in overall cap state to the other 3 marauders.

And those other hull bonuse son t2 hulls, based on the t1 skills ahve been mostly removed trough tiercide. That is my point.

My original statement was that if they removed the range bonus for soemthiugn weaker like tracking Then they should integrate the cap bonus in the hull and give somethign on its place.

As I stated, that would be moslty needed if the RANGE bonus was to be removed as the guy just before myoriginal post was requiring. On the current scenario, with the range bonus the "lost" bonus is acceptable. But if paladin lost its only POWERFUl bonus, then the cap bonus would need to be gone for basically anything useful.

Honestly, I have to admit I hadn't read it (I only read the first 10 or so pages) but after reading your reply I made sure to. And I have to say, I love this idea. It could completely level the Marauder to act as a mini-dread should with 2-3K dps, and if they want to keep that balanced they could very easily make that 100% bonus only applicable when in bastion mode. Then neither PvE nor PvP'ers need lose anything.

The ONLY possible clause that I can forsee shaking this idea would be that the need for PG and CPU could potentially skyrocket due to suddenly doubling your weapons.

The same way that giving the same types of perks to dreadnaughts doesn't. It's unable to recieve remote repair or other positive effects, forcing it to rely on its own local tank which can be quickly and mercilessly overpowered by focused aggression.

EDIT: And I'm sorry, but if I can solo any level 4 in a tengu with a SMALL shield booster, PvE is already broken.

Fyi, changed skill requirements on the Bastion Module from High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5 to Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5.

This is made in an effort to respect the philosophy we introduced in the ship skill changes earlier this year. Mainly that Tech 2 ships with specialized modules should have them integrated into the hull training time whenever possible. As such, when training Marauders you will automatically gain access to the Bastion Module.

And yes, we know it's late and know that you guys potentially trained for High Energy Physics 4 already, but we warned about training this skill at your own risk. If that can make you guys feel better, that means my own TQ characters spent time training High Energy Physics 4 for nothing as well

You aren't getting your sentries back - this has already been made explicitly clear. Try to understand it already.

The Paladin also deals the most useless damage type in the whole everything - EM. So your real DPS is much less than that stupid paper DPS you seem to worship.




You don't have to use the MJD and even if you do it's not that hard to common-sense your approximate angles anyway.

If you had even the faintest clue about pve you'd know that some rats, especially Angel, guirista and serp have high EM resistances, so high that the EFT damage gets cut in HALF.

That said the palladin is god mode in Amarr space with sansha and blood rats. It does ok against serp since they are moderately weak against thermal.

EFT warriors make me giggle.

Lets compare damage differences between T1 and T2 hulls:

Tempest with 6x 1400mm T2 and EMP got 336dps
Vargur with 4x 1400mm T2 and EMP got 359dps (so overall 7% increase in damage)

Apocalypse with 8x Tachyons T2 and Multifrequency got 364dps
Paladin with 4x Tachyons T2 and Multifrequency got 455dps (so overall 25% increase in damage)

Megathron with 7x 425mm Rails T2 and Antimatter got 373dps
Kronos with 4x 425mm Rails T2 and Antimatter got 400 dps (so overall 7% increase in damage)

Raven with 6x Cruise Launcher T2 and Scourge got 362dps
Golem with 4x Cruise Launchers T2 and Scourge got 362 dps (nothing)
+fact that u need to wait for missiles to reach target and waste med slot for something that should be build in



If we talk about range difference:
Tempest with 6x 1400mm T2 and EMP got 30+44km range
Vargur with 4x 1400mm T2 and EMP got 30+66km range (22km better falloff)

Apocalypse with 8x Tachyons T2 and Multifrequency got 45+25km
Paladin with 4x Tachyons T2 and Multifrequency got 45+25km (no difference in range, but still 25% more damage)

Megathron with 7x 425mm Rails T2 and Antimatter got 36+30km range
Kronos with 4x 425mm Rails T2 and Antimatter got 36+38km range (8km better falloff)

Raven with 6x Torpedo Launcher T2 and Scourge got 30km
Golem with 4x Torpedo Launchers T2 and Scourge got 30km (nothing, no damage increase, no range increase)
+fact that u need to wait for missiles to reach target and waste med slot for something that should be build in

Well we dont even have range mods for missiles.

Blaster kronos or rail kronos then?

Can get about 60km max range with my setup on blasters.

do u reckon that will be enough?

Gets about 1,100 with long range ammo 1400dps uo to 30km