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Nos Penalty in Developmnent

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Erotic Irony	Posted - 2006.05.15 04:45:00 - [121] Weirda and Rodj are on the right track insofar as they point to a broader problem: What category of mod do Nosferatu fit into and what does that category imply? If they are weapon's, why not link their effectiveness to energy emissions, allow for a fitting reduction skill and a lowslot weapon upgrade as well as their own skill tree like drones and missiles? Right now it seems CCP wants them to be distinctly offensive mods but they haven't answered the question completely. I suppose the side effect of this lack of coherent design is that Nosferatu become the next smartbomb class of weapon.
fairimear	Posted - 2006.05.15 07:06:00 - [122] Edited by: fairimear on 15/05/2006 07:09:20 nost are a very hard item to balance. why? because they are vital to maintain balance. atm yes they allow bs to wtf pwn a hac or anything. but imagine if that bs did't have the ability to defend at all against frigs/ hacs. a apoc for instance is out and about. a interceptor turns up. apoc has no nos ability and no way to kill the frig. interceptor orbits at 15km, and scrambles, apoc with 10km web can't slow it down so heavy drones have any effect. 10min later the ceptor is still scrambling cus the apoc can do sod all. 5min later a vagabond turns up and starts orbiting at 15km ripping the apoc up. the lesson of this thread is, use a bloody gang. you wana go ganking opertunity targest in a hac your risk you know the nos is out there. take a gang witha ecm ship and problem solved, nos aint gona bother your lil hac no more. dont get me rong i hate nosts as much as the next guy, [deimos with void ammo really hate nost] but altering them would cause more issues than it would solve.
Benefactor	Posted - 2006.05.15 10:13:00 - [123] So, the BS fanboys think NOSes are just fine? Yeah, I guess we should all use NOS, sucking energy from each other back and forth. You guessed it, a literal SUCK-fest. Not since the poison-tossing wars of Star Wars Galaxies has such a concept reared its ugly head. So your template is perfect for you. Well boo-hoo. Balance isn't always about what makes you particular ship uber. A wise man knows everything. A cunning man knows everybody.
Pesadel0	Posted - 2006.05.15 11:19:00 - [124] The NOS arent going to be nerfed they are going to get a counter module ,at least tha was what tux said. An even if they nerf NOS ,BS pilots will shift to Neuts and bamm more 6 months of whining :)
Xaeon	Posted - 2006.05.15 11:57:00 - [125] Uhm.. use ECM.. ---- 23/03/06 - Chapter III: The Campaign of Keshirou
SilentSentinel	Posted - 2006.05.15 12:13:00 - [126] ECM and damps work well with trained up skills against ships that use Nos. This game is based on gang tactics. Don't know of any ship that is a solo pwnmobile. They all have a weakness of one type or another. Just have to use your head. Cheers
Antares Andaris	Posted - 2006.05.15 13:25:00 - [127] Edited by: Antares Andaris on 15/05/2006 13:26:27 Edited by: Antares Andaris on 15/05/2006 13:26:12 My proposal: Add a percentage drain value to the current NOS depending on the current status of the cap while keeping the maximal drain amounts. I would suggest 10% of the current cap with the current drain values as limits. This way a BS will get only 30 out of a frig with a full cap of 300. The lower the cap the less a BS NOS will drain. For the BS vs cruiser case a BS NOS will initially drain almost it's full amount (e.g. 100 for a cruiser with a cap of 1000) and dropping quite fast when the cap of the cruiser falls. This will decrease the effect of large NOS vs small ships but will have almost no effect on NOS vs same sized ships (e.g. heavy NOS vs BS as long as the cap is at least at 1200)
YMPWL Alt	Posted - 2006.05.15 13:59:00 - [128] Originally by: doyouneedcash Edited by: doyouneedcash on 04/01/2006 23:11:57 Make it just like a MWD, -25% to total cap capacity. FLAME ON! However apply the same stacking penalties for the cap capacity like you other mods. So you can still fit 5x nos, andonly take about a 40% reduction to total cap power. no.
Swethren	Posted - 2006.05.15 14:07:00 - [129] Edited by: Swethren on 15/05/2006 14:07:36 Originally by: Ace Combat Why not give ships a number of NOS hardpoints? Is it just me, or is this just a good idea?
Twilight Moon	Posted - 2006.05.15 14:24:00 - [130] Edited by: Twilight Moon on 15/05/2006 14:24:40 Originally by: Hanns Your telling me that if someone in a dread came up to your BS and XL Nossed your arse to death while webbing you and obliterated your BS with XL Weapons you would have no problem with that? Dread....what....1 Billion + Fittings? Average BS....150Million ISK. So no, I wouldnt be ****ed if the dread done that vs a single BS, but it pulled it off versus 8 BS pouncing on it at the same time, then yeah, then it would be IMBA.

Crumplecorn	Posted - 2006.05.15 14:26:00 - [131] When I first encountered NOS I was amazed that all they cost you was CPU and Powergrid. Free power with no downside, and if your enemy is smaller you can stop him in his tracks. An amazing module. BS ones are insanely powerful, and it is unbalanced. Forget about what ships should be able to kill what is which numbers, just look at the big fat module with ALL YOUR CAPACITOR ARE BELONG TO ME!!!!!11!1!!! written on the side of it and it should occur to you that it needs nerfing. NOS should be a support to your capacitor at the expense of your enemy, or a way to incapacitate someone in a dedicated tackler. ---------- Sorry but that link contains nawty language. -wystler "Discussing moderation is not allowed" - Ivan K "Ranting is prohibited" - Teblin
Lumel	Posted - 2006.05.15 15:20:00 - [132] Edited by: Lumel on 15/05/2006 15:21:07 Originally by: Hanns Edited by: Hanns on 05/01/2006 01:28:51 Your telling me that if someone in a dread came up to your BS and XL Nossed your arse to death while webbing you and obliterated your BS with XL Weapons you would have no problem with that? I just wanted to quote this for hilarity, really. "You're telling me that if a bigger ship came up to you fitted in such a manner that it'd pwn you, and it did then pwn you, that you'd be ok with that?" Meh, Twilight Moon beat me to it, sorta. --- Knowledge won't help us understand
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.05.15 15:45:00 - [133] Come up with a good balance that is equally fair to BSs as they are to smaller ships then talk to me. I have no compassion for small ship pilots since they like to bypass any logic because something big can kill them faster then they could do the likewise. ATM nothing that has been proposed is really effective at fixing the problem which has nothing to do with NOS at all. It is 20km and under t1 combat that needs addressing since it affects way more ship systems roles than just energy emmissions. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Fredbob	Posted - 2006.05.15 16:06:00 - [134] While NOS vs smaller targets is fine as defence (ceptors are immune to everything else), I think some sort of limit should be in place as regards to NOS, or at least some penalty other than their fitting. Drone ships somehow have the grid to fit a uber tank, multiple NOS to cripple the opppoent and run that uber tank, and ofc have weapons with no fitting req. Very few ships could take on such a ship without flying around at long range tickling it. Equally, a ship with 3/4 NOS vs an equal sized opponent with none/one NOS almost has the victory in the bag before it's started (unless mr no-nos has ECM/can avoid the nos somehow). I'm not savvy to all that it would impact if it were changed, but NOS does seem a little too popular. At the moment, 99% of ship setups have at least one NOS, and that to me is a sign that this particular module is a little too good in the world of balance. Of course, nothing "simple" can be done at the click of two fingers, it's a complex matter hence CCP havn't jumped in with a quick, un-thought-through change. I'm sure Tux&co are aware of people 's views, and it'll take time to see if something can be worked out, til then - use nos! These views are my own, and before you flame me - I can't be wrong as it's an opinion, so there ___________ ~Fredbob~
Icesail	Posted - 2006.05.16 03:57:00 - [135] Edited by: Icesail on 16/05/2006 04:02:12 So, if a module that is a "must use" by the majority of people in the game is a sign that the module is overpowered...... Please raise your hands to answer the following questions: 1. How many of you fit hardners? 2. How many of you fit Shield Boosters? 3. How many of you fit Armor Repairs? Lets see... the show of hands indicated that the 3 mods mentioned are in a way or another used by virtualy all BS pilots, most Cruiser pilots and any frigate pilot that has a spare slot for them.... Therefore, following the logic behind "since most setups fit a NOS, therefore its overpowers, lets nerf it", hardners, shield boosters and armor reps are WAY overpowered and should be Nerfed, since most people are using them...... If you say, but those mods dont kill ships, well, nor does the NOS.... I have NEVER seen a ship that got killed by a NOS. And finaly, to complete the ideas.... How about having propulsion strength to be used when calculating how much a ship gets webbed? Or introducing 3 sizes of scramblers? frigate size with 1 strengh, cruiser with 2 and BS with 3? want to make it even more exciting? Add tracking to scramblers and webbers as well. NOS may not be perfect but its fine, at the moment it is the only way for large ships to defend themselves from smaller ones. (And dont even bother bringing the BS are not meant to fly alone... because the same can be used for any ship class) Icesail -From one bad idea to a worse one-
Rhuu	Posted - 2006.05.16 04:17:00 - [136] Edited by: Rhuu on 16/05/2006 04:23:21 I don't know if it has been brought up before, but I always thought a very easy solution to this problem would go like this: Small nosferatu: take 1% of enemy maximum capacitor energy from their current capacitor pool and add it to your capacitor pool. It'll work great vs. a battleship, nicely against a cruiser, and will kinda suck against a frigate. Medium: 2%. Works a little better, but still mostly useless against frigates. Large: 3%. They'll be just as useful against battleships as before, be somewhat effective with cruisers, and only slightly worthwhile with frigates. It would be a nerf to apocs and capacitor batteries, but the latter could do with a boost, anyways. I'd envision AFs (with their loads of high slots) ending up loading up on nosferatus in order to cripple battleships, cruisers and interceptors... err... intercepting the AFs to stop them from succeeding.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.05.16 11:20:00 - [137] Originally by: Rhuu Small nosferatu: take 1% of enemy maximum capacitor energy from their current capacitor pool and add it to your capacitor pool. It'll work great vs. a battleship, nicely against a cruiser, and will kinda suck against a frigate. Medium: 2%. Works a little better, but still mostly useless against frigates. Large: 3%. They'll be just as useful against battleships as before, be somewhat effective with cruisers, and only slightly worthwhile with frigates. It would be a nerf to apocs and capacitor batteries, but the latter could do with a boost, anyways. This is a joke post right.... right? Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Antares Andaris	Posted - 2006.05.16 12:21:00 - [138] Edited by: Antares Andaris on 16/05/2006 12:22:26 Edited by: Antares Andaris on 16/05/2006 12:21:46 Originally by: Rhuu Edited by: Rhuu on 16/05/2006 04:23:21 I don't know if it has been brought up before, but I always thought a very easy solution to this problem would go like this: Small nosferatu: take 1% of enemy maximum capacitor energy from their current capacitor pool and add it to your capacitor pool. It'll work great vs. a battleship, nicely against a cruiser, and will kinda suck against a frigate. Medium: 2%. Works a little better, but still mostly useless against frigates. Large: 3%. They'll be just as useful against battleships as before, be somewhat effective with cruisers, and only slightly worthwhile with frigates. It would be a nerf to apocs and capacitor batteries, but the latter could do with a boost, anyways. I'd envision AFs (with their loads of high slots) ending up loading up on nosferatus in order to cripple battleships, cruisers and interceptors... err... intercepting the AFs to stop them from succeeding. Well that's exaclty my idea posted 5 posts before, just without keepin the upper limit of the current NOS. If one keeps the current upper drain limit of NSO then this should work fine i guess. Has anybody actually read my stuff? Here it is again: Add a percentage drain value to the current NOS depending on the current status of the cap while keeping the maximal drain amounts. I would suggest 10% of the current cap with the current drain values as limits. This way a BS will get only 30 out of a frig with a full cap of 300. The lower the cap the less a BS NOS will drain. For the BS vs cruiser case a BS NOS will initially drain almost it's full amount (e.g. 100 for a cruiser with a cap of 1000) and dropping quite fast when the cap of the cruiser falls. This will decrease the effect of large NOS vs small ships but will have almost no effect on NOS vs same sized ships (e.g. heavy NOS vs BS as long as the cap is at least at 1200)
Erotic Irony	Posted - 2006.05.19 08:13:00 - [139] Jide's ob-ex lists vampire slayers under engineering equipment. Hi slot 8mw\|15tf fitting, same skills as nos and with seemingly identical stats but with the description that says "Kills Vampires dead."
Kaeten	Posted - 2006.05.19 10:08:00 - [140] Originally by: doyouneedcash FLAME ON! you do realise by saying this your expecting flames making this thread a troll. I don't mind ppl who post opinions say it but the starter of the post? If it was at all serious you would try to counter flames instead of letting em pile up

Dinique	Posted - 2006.05.19 10:15:00 - [141] Originally by: Alowishus Why would anyone use a Nos then? If I was just worried about crippling frigs I'd run a Nuet. The whole point of a Nos is that YOU GET CAP. Giving Nos a cap penalty is like givng MWD a speed penalty. Stupid stupid stupid. High slot modules already have pentalties, they have high fitting requirements and use a high slot. err no. You dont get cap, you get cap RECHARGE. So, something like a 10% (for instance) penalty to capacitor capacity wont hurt that much, since as long as the nos is running your cap is receiving additional recharge. The main negative effect this will have is that your cap will drain much faster when you are not running the nos. A small capacitor penalty might just be a good thing. 5% for smalls, 10% for mediums and 15% for heavies for instance? With named/tech 2 variants having less penalty.
Laboratus	Posted - 2006.05.19 10:19:00 - [142] Nos Are Fine . Period. If you wan't to get in NOS range without ECMing your target, you have already failed. One word. Prepare. That is what wins the day. Sun Tzu:"Battles are won before the battle starts."
Jadiin	Posted - 2006.05.19 12:37:00 - [143] NOS are fine.
Troye	Posted - 2006.05.19 12:49:00 - [144] Edited by: Troye on 19/05/2006 12:49:09 My Idea: Add a module which grants a % resistance agaisnt NOSs. Make it available as a low slot and a med slot, then people have the options to fit it so their tank isnt gimped by using it. EDIT: Sorry if some ones already mentioned this. _______________________________________________
Malena Panic	Posted - 2006.05.19 13:16:00 - [145] Originally by: Jadiin NOS are fine. Not fine.
Captain Jew	Posted - 2006.05.19 14:16:00 - [146] Originally by: Laboratus Nos Are Fine . Period. If you wan't to get in NOS range without ECMing your target, you have already failed. One word. Prepare. That is what wins the day. Sun Tzu:"Battles are won before the battle starts." wait what. how many ships can tackle and pack ecm, since tackling requires 3 midslots, and there are like 5 ships in eve with more than 3 midslots also as nice as ECM is when it works, it doesn't really work too often. The biggest problem with nos is that there's absolutely no drawback other than not having a gun fitted, but the drop in dps is easily compensated (and more) by the targets ability to not run any tank whatsoever. the next issue is range, small nos range sucks ass, large nos range basically covers anything you could say is closerange combat, which is really where anything smaller than a battleship tends to operate.
Laboratus	Posted - 2006.05.19 14:54:00 - [147] Originally by: Captain Jew wait what. how many ships can tackle and pack ecm, since tackling requires 3 midslots, and there are like 5 ships in eve with more than 3 midslots also as nice as ECM is when it works, it doesn't really work too often. The biggest problem with nos is that there's absolutely no drawback other than not having a gun fitted, but the drop in dps is easily compensated (and more) by the targets ability to not run any tank whatsoever. the next issue is range, small nos range sucks ass, large nos range basically covers anything you could say is closerange combat, which is really where anything smaller than a battleship tends to operate. Get friends. You aren't supposed to be able to solo gank a battleship in a frig, quite the opposite. The battleships are supposed to swat frigs and cruisers from the sky like flies. It takes a few swings to hit em, but the go splat. Thats the way its supposed to work. If you want to get around the handicap of being nossed by a single nos, fit all your highslots with light noses. Get Friends. When you have a BlackBird ECMing the life out of your target you can get in hugging range without the target being able to do anything to you. Get Friends. The tackler can easily outnos the battleship if the BS has the standard guns +1 nos setup. Get Friends. The tackler isn't supposed to be the damage dealer, that is the BSs or HACs job. Get Friends. It's always about the composition of the gang never just a single ship. In conclusion. Get Friends. You can't do it alone.
Novarei	Posted - 2006.05.19 14:58:00 - [148] NOS > YOU +--------------------------------------------+


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