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Ranger 1
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Posted - 2006.01.25 01:43:00 -
[91]
To put it another way...
If you have an auction for the prints based on isk, only the already rich can afford them.
If you have an auction based on RP's, then the people that have multiple accounts all running research will have a distict advantage, buy the sheer fact that as one characters points are used to buy the prints (and losing that many RP's) they have at least a few more that very shortly will have a large amount to spend. In other words, if they have 15 characters doing research for awhile, they are going to have the most points to blow on the auction 15X more often than the guy who only has one Research Agent.
A LP auction has similar problems. Only the most hard core agent runners are going to get enough to compete for a high value print, which leaves people with limited play time out in the cold.
The whole auction idea is far, far worse than the present lottery system. Not that I'm a big fan of the lottery, but this particular line of though for an alternative... is short sighted and foolish.
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adhoc
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Posted - 2006.01.25 01:57:00 -
[92]
Edited by: adhoc on 25/01/2006 01:59:41
Edited by: adhoc on 25/01/2006 01:58:33
Not all RNGs are created equal however, the devil is often in the detail, or in this case the resolution.
Here are two graphs of Random functions, the first is the standard C runtime rand() function.
http://www.orthogonal.com.au/hobby/random/plot_crtrand.gif
The second is the VB6 Rnd function.
http://www.orthogonal.com.au/hobby/random/plot_vbrnd.gif
These graphs were made by plotting random (x,y) coordinates in a square and zooming in 1000 times. Ie. The full square is 1x1 and this is a 0.001x0.001 area of it.
Imagine those dots are people in a lottery and one of the dots (or more likely the gaps) is you. I've no idea what RNG they use or what external selection factors might mix the randomness up a bit more, but simply assuming an RNG is up to the job because its only a game is never a good idea.
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2006.01.25 02:15:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 25/01/2006 02:15:20
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 25/01/2006 02:14:43
 Originally by: adhoc
Edited by: adhoc on 25/01/2006 01:59:41
Edited by: adhoc on 25/01/2006 01:58:33
Not all RNGs are created equal however, the devil is often in the detail, or in this case the resolution.
Here are two graphs of Random functions, the first is the standard C runtime rand() function.
http://www.orthogonal.com.au/hobby/random/plot_crtrand.gif
The second is the VB6 Rnd function.
http://www.orthogonal.com.au/hobby/random/plot_vbrnd.gif
These graphs were made by plotting random (x,y) coordinates in a square and zooming in 1000 times. Ie. The full square is 1x1 and this is a 0.001x0.001 area of it.
Imagine those dots are people in a lottery and one of the dots (or more likely the gaps) is you. I've no idea what RNG they use or what external selection factors might mix the randomness up a bit more, but simply assuming an RNG is up to the job because its only a game is never a good idea.
Out of curiosity, how did you call both random number generators? And what did you use for seeds? A pseudorandom number generator is as good as the seeds its given.
(to others: thats why you're instructued to use time(0) - the number of seconds since Jan 1 1970 isn't going to be the same number twice... but it is kind of predictable)
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adhoc
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Posted - 2006.01.25 02:29:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Out of curiosity, how did you call both random number generators? And what did you use for seeds? A pseudorandom number generator is as good as the seeds its given.
(to others: thats why you're instructued to use time(0) - the number of seconds since Jan 1 1970 isn't going to be the same number twice... but it is kind of predictable)
Sorry I didn't make those graphs so I can't answer your question, though I doubt the seed will make much difference to the period of the distribution. They came from http://www.orthogonal.com.au/hobby/random/index.htm. I've seen results like these in practical applications before, specifically ray scattering, which made me search for them.
What may affect the results is the resolution of the Random function, ie. if RAND_MAX is lower than whatever you're dividing by to get your scale. However you'd see the streaking in both axis and I would imagine the author did take this into account.
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w0rmy
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Posted - 2006.01.25 02:31:00 -
[95]
Could the lottery be better? Yes.
No brainer that the current system sucks.
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Zenst
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Posted - 2006.01.25 02:50:00 -
[96]
Well the option to exchange RP's for limited run T2 BP's would be an ideal solution to many people bad luck and also solve alot of market imbalances/demand.
As for the lotteryof BPO's look at it this way. If it was a real life lottery and you brought say 10 tickets every week for 50 years and didn't win, would you then cry foul. The odd's are the same every day, with no bias placed upon previous winners. But in the T2 BPO lottery there is a disadvantaged placed upon previous winners to the effect that they will have less tickets for the next handout.
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Mr M
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Posted - 2006.01.25 13:53:00 -
[97]
In a way I still think the lottery system is the best because it means that even people without a couple of billions can get a blueprint, but I still think it can be tweaked into something better.
As an example, if you actually had to do at least one mission for the agent every week at least some people would hesistate before they started researching with 15 research agents on multiple alts.
With such a system where you have to do something to earn the researh points the possibility to trade in research points for blueprint copies would also work better.
EVEgeek Geekulators, Mineral Index, and more |
Somatic Neuron
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Posted - 2006.01.25 15:28:00 -
[98]
Actually, the fix for the "Lottery" is as simple as "Directed Research", which will also solve the market imbalance issues and also align nicely with future tech levels/BP modifications.
For instance, the market for Cap Recharger IIs is not saturated, and prices are ridiculously high. Researchers give their R&D agents a well researched Cap Recharger I BPO and a few sets of the items needed to build a Cap Recharger II (Cap Recharger I, morphite, R.A.M. Energy Tech, etc.) and few sets of the items needed to research material and productivity levels (Research Databases, reports, consumer electronics, etc.), and tell their R&D agent to research "Tech Level". At various points throughout the research, the R&D agent will call for additional parts and supplies that may or may not be necessarily involved in the construction of a Cap Recharger II (Janitors, Science Graduates, maybe some elite slaves, some High Tech Manufacturing Tools, perhaps some Antibiotics to stop an outbreak of illness) that would HALT all research until those things are taken care of. They may also call for some special missions where you retrieve a special item from NPCs or something. After a time equal to researching the tech 2 equivalent to ME 20 for Equipment mods and ME 5 for Ships, and ME 100 for Ammo, you start getting a daily chance to complete the item in question. For every day that goes by, you get an increased chance (3% for ammo, 1% for equipment, and 0.2% for ships) of completing the item. Some people will get lucky on that first day and complete it...some may have to wait for it to hit 100%...the majority will fall around the middle of the curve.
Later on, when T3 comes out, a T2 BPO is given to the research agent and a similar process is followed for T3 and/or modifications (For instance, if I wanted a Cap Recharger III BPO that has less CPU fitting requirements, I would first have to research that BPO to Tech 3, and then put it in for CPU Enhancements research following a similar approach.
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Somatic Neuron
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Posted - 2006.01.25 15:37:00 -
[99]
You could also keep the current "Lottery" as an added bonus...to give people that extra headstart
For instance, the Cap Power Relay II...when it is finally released (come on Devs), 10 copies are randomly offered to people who are actively researching something/anything that are doing so in the field that is related to the Cap Power Relay II. Upon release of the BPO, researchers throughout the galaxy are allowed to start researching it on their own. This gives the random recipients time to get a market advantage (read as: *****the market) until the researchers get their own BPOs researched up to Tech 2....which will take some time.
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Mimio
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Posted - 2006.01.25 15:49:00 -
[100]
Lottery BPO t2 is the only thing I hate in the Eve. It leads directly to market monopolizing because literally few owners of BPO use unlawful in real world market practice(cartel agreement, price fixation, etc).
CCP may regulate market by injecting BPC, but, I think, CCP afraids of unclear consequences for the game balance and whole mechanic of injecting is not very, hmm, clear too...
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OSughhi
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Posted - 2006.01.25 16:15:00 -
[101]
Edited by: OSughhi on 25/01/2006 16:17:30
The fault of lottery is not the random or distribution od research on fields and agents. The error consist we have ONE loterry for a 'class' of BPO, and that all. Next time we wil have another 'packagge' of BPO on same agent and so on.
That is not a fair. An agent contract when you start a research activity. I start such time consuming 2 years ago with an agent for what was the offer on that period (like t2 ship or t2 items specifically) and I see periodic others and others T2 in agent research field. That is wrong. The agents should seed same T2 from start to end, no matter changes in time.
I have a contract, I have to respect. That is a basic rule when you start an activity. Actual sistem of T2 denied this.
Do you like your researcher to come to you in every months and said 'I need more money for research a new Manticore ship, the deimos project I don't wanna do it.'
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Carter Burke
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Posted - 2006.01.25 19:28:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Naal Morno
Ok, people, chill.
The fact is CCP released paramount number of BPOs this patch (20 different ships, 48 different ammo bpo, times about 40-50 as hinted by oveour for ammo and 24 or so for ships). It is somewhere in Blogs or some thread, Oveur said 5,000 bpos hits shortly after RMR gets released. If you have any measurable amount of RPs you will get your bpo... worth prolly nothing since so many got released at once!
So all whiners got what they wanted, except now that everyone and their grandma has a bpo, their value is not as pre RMR and as used to be.
Cheers.
400k RPs here. Still waiting.
CB
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mistery mango
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Posted - 2006.01.27 20:34:00 -
[103]
maby it cud be like in a tivoly ... example:
teh x amount of RP a day is taken away and to get RP u ned to do a mision and as a revard u get (lets say)5 RP u do that mision x100 so u have 500 RP and just like in the tivoly thes a bord/cart:
ammo (S) BP = 10 RP
ammo (M) BP = 20 RP
ammo (L) BP = 30 RP
small sheld boster II BP = 50 RP
***
***
***
***
capital sheld boster II BP = 500 RP
condor BP = 100 RP
***
***
flycatser BP = 5000 RP
raven T2 BP = 50000 RP
and on and on and on
so for 500 RP u get 10xsmall sheld boster II BP or 1xcapital sheld boster II BP or 50xammo (S) BP
wat im trying to say is that RP becoms like mony u can only use to buy T2 BP'S (just like in a tivoly)and u can se a cart wit wat u can get and how much RP it will cost andu u ned to do a mision to get RP and higer agents give oute mor RP for each mision and maby if ther will be to meny BP'S it cud b elimitid .. example:
ammo = 50 BP per week
ships = 10 BP per week
and of course u ned to put in new numbers cus the numbers i put in ar just to explane wat im trying to say AND IF U DONT UNDERSTAND THIS GO TO A TIVOLY AND TRY IT OUT FOR YOUR SELF!!!!!!!
Ps. plise dont wine about my spelling :P
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Cheechako
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Posted - 2006.01.27 23:24:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Cheechako on 27/01/2006 23:24:26
One of the hardest parts about the T2 lottery is that newer players are put up against a huge disadvantage against players who've been in the lottery for a year or two. Then again, if by some freak chance their 100 RPs get lucky then they instantly jump status from other newer players.
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.01.27 23:43:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 27/01/2006 23:45:01
Originally by: Doc Brown
This whole thread is pretty much pure speculation unless CCP releases sanatized (i.e.: remove of any identifying markers) data of who get's what BPO and how many RP were spent.
I'd love to get this data 'cause I'd spend hours in excell/forcastX and or SPSS to see if there are any patterns. After all, this is what I'm in school for and even my graduate professors have expressed an interest in analyzing these so call "virtual" markets.
Tbh the fact that CCP isnt willing to release any info whatever so ever regarding t2 bpo distribution is a pretty big hint that its not working. Plus untill i get multiple BPOs i consider it broken anyway. 
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Douglas McCracken
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Posted - 2006.01.28 00:14:00 -
[106]
me and my corp mate started at the same time, he has had two bpos i have had none, tad anoying really the only difference really is that he uses lai dai agents and im with ishukone. Doubt there is anything in it though guess he is just a lucky bast.
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Carter Burke
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Posted - 2006.01.30 20:23:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Carter Burke
Originally by: Naal Morno
Ok, people, chill.
The fact is CCP released paramount number of BPOs this patch (20 different ships, 48 different ammo bpo, times about 40-50 as hinted by oveour for ammo and 24 or so for ships). It is somewhere in Blogs or some thread, Oveur said 5,000 bpos hits shortly after RMR gets released. If you have any measurable amount of RPs you will get your bpo... worth prolly nothing since so many got released at once!
So all whiners got what they wanted, except now that everyone and their grandma has a bpo, their value is not as pre RMR and as used to be.
Cheers.
400k RPs here. Still waiting.
CB
On this morning, I find myself in the rare circumstance of having to eat my words. 
Came in and found one of my research agents telling me we'd had a breakthrough. Columbia Saltworks will shortly be producing the Eos command ship.
So, my case is no longer applicable here.
CB
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Facechanger2
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Posted - 2006.01.30 22:09:00 -
[108]
Sounds like the hand of god played a part in that... nothing to do with luck.
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Nev Clavain
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Posted - 2006.01.30 22:34:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Nev Clavain on 30/01/2006 22:37:52
* i cant read
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Dreck Morrison
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Posted - 2006.01.30 23:48:00 -
[110]
In game Lottery is fine and works as advertised (I have had 4 bpos from my 15 agents in 2 years).
You know - I am actually more ****ed that I don't win the Lotto. Heck 65M$$ in RL will mean I can play more Eve than I already do.
Dreck |
Dr Brains
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Posted - 2006.02.06 09:06:00 -
[111]
OK i have another one that's very funny.
One dude got an offer for Null M after xmas last year, he was afk and missed it. Yesterday he got an offer for Void M and took it. He switched fields to gallentean starship engineering and got another offer for Hulk today, with 150 RP! And he get's 145/dy in that field. After one day of research, one day after he got his first offer. He only got one agent, same agent hitting BPOs within 2 days.
I don't mind that he got it, i'm happy for him - i'll get the crap cheap. I'm just ****ed because of the way this thing works...
That's crap tbh. I'm really ****ed.
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Dimitri Chandler
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Posted - 2006.02.06 09:17:00 -
[112]
On the plus side, people who have lots of tech 2 bpo's, in my experience, get bored and want to quit because they have 'won' eve.
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LOSE CHUCK |
Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.02.06 09:47:00 -
[113]
the problem is tbh is that the same t2 bpo owners get more t2 bpo's, and that is what makes it unfair..
"We brake for nobody"
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MachZERO
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Posted - 2006.02.06 10:09:00 -
[114]
I'll spill the beans.. (or a few at least)
Don't know if this will help much but here goes.. Do what you want with the following info...
I've been playing eve for a little over 2 years now.
I've recieved 1 T2 BPO after 322 days of research from a lvl 3 qlty -18 agent @ 56k RP's.
I have 1 account with 6 research agents on one character. On my 2 accounts, this is the only character with any research science skills.
That character has:
Minmatar Starship Engineering LVL 5
Research Project Management LVL 5
And the following agents:
Skuind Aettad - Minmatar Starship Engineering - 2147.20 - 180.48 (recieved 1 BPO)
Wingvontzen Urata - Minmatar Starship Engineering - 59479.64 - 190.08
Adrek Reigeko - Minmatar Starship Engineering - 68525.62 - 218.88
Olikia Ergreid - Minmatar Starship Engineering - 77099.60 - 245.76
Eindolf Fer - Minmatar Starship Engineering - 61713.64 - 286.74
Kasukell Bjaren - Minmatar Starship Engineering - 60430.61 - 301.32
No point in explaining the above to anyone reading this thread as everyone here knows that it's just info copied and pasted out of the research tab in the journal.
For anyone wanting to know how long it took to get that many research points for any particular agent above, just divide the total RP's by the RP's per day...
I've put this here so that anyone doing research in minmatar starship can basically compare their research to mine. Someone said earlier, and rather correctly, that if you are gaining RP's at a lower rate than everyone else in that field then you have that much less of a chance of even getting a BPO. Not totally impossible, just much harder. And if you've spread your research across 6 different fields then you have made it even worse.
Took me almost a year to get mine and that's with a character that is heavily specialized in research so I can understand the frustrations of those that only have 2 or 3 agents and low research skills. All I can really tell you is... keep the faith...
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"All that is, Ever was, Will be ever,
Twisting, Turning, Through the never"
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MachZERO
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Posted - 2006.02.06 10:26:00 -
[115]
Edited by: MachZERO on 06/02/2006 10:34:43
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
the problem is tbh is that the same t2 bpo owners get more t2 bpo's, and that is what makes it unfair..
You'll find that alot of the long time T2 BPO owners have the isk to outright buy T2 BPO's from people for outrageous sums of isk. I was offered 18.5 Billion isk for my BPO if that tells ya anything.
And the fact that alot of people are using their BPO's as "I'm RICH" buttons isn't helping to keep a few things from being totally monopolized. (Noticed all the T2 BPO auctions in the sell forum lately?)
Granted, CCP can fix the lottery system but they can't keep people from exploiting one another. As soon as someone gets a T2 BPO/BPC with a new system they'll post an auction on the sell forum to, you guessed it, sell to the highest bidder. And the highest bidder is usually someone that already owns a couple T2 BPO's...
And the ships stay the same price... There is still crap availability... Nothing really changes...
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"All that is, Ever was, Will be ever,
Twisting, Turning, Through the never"
--------------------------------------
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Kay Han
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Posted - 2006.02.06 10:33:00 -
[116]
some peeps simply will earn some isk.
No matter if they sell a BPO or start to produce stuff.
It makes people sick to see some peeps getting multiple Tech II BPO¦s. No matter if they have 1 or 6 R&D agents.
I mentioned in another post, that it would be fine to have somekind of penality after getting a Tech II BPO.
And i mean a "global Panality" you shouldn¦t get multiple Tech II BPO¦s in a few weeks. Thats so wrong.
Sure... rich peeps will still buy tech II bpo¦s from auctions. So no changes will change this.
But it will give other people who will start producing tech II stuff, a real chance to get into the tech II market..
___________________________________________
A wise man said once:
'Violence is the escape of the mentaly poor guys.'
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Pytria Le'Danness
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Posted - 2006.02.06 15:01:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Kay Han
No matter if they have 1 or 6 R&D agents.
Heck, if they have six agents, they probably poured a lot of skills, time, or ISK into the subject. Don't you think it is fair if these people have a higher chance to benefit from it than someone who only does it on the side?
I dislike the current T2 price situation, but I think the BPO distribution follows the same principle like everything: work hard for it, and you have a better chance at succeeding. Try to engage one of the T2 researcher guys in a ship battle, I bet you'll see where training time went  . Also, the money that comes from the T2 production usually goes into BPO acquiring - that makes for the slanted view that all the BPOs are given to the same people when in reality a lot are being bought by the large scale producers.
The utter monopoly based on BPO possession is bad, IMO some random T2 drops would bring prices down to a more reasonable level. Despite the introduction of RAM BPOs, the T2 prices (that "had to be raised due to the RAM changes") skyrocketted. Try to buy a Cov Ops Cloak for below 20 million atm 
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Eight Ace
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Posted - 2006.02.07 14:27:00 -
[118]
270k RP. nada. zip. nothing. and its in gallente starship engineering :(
I read that a guy got a hulk BPO with 70k, thought he had 'lots' of RP. Lucky him.
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Karl Mattar
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Posted - 2006.02.07 14:35:00 -
[119]
I don't care if it is unfair - that's EVE.
Don't like it? Get off your lazy butt and research harder.
Personally, I'd rather just buy what I want off someone else's hard work.
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Wulfstan
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Posted - 2006.02.07 14:53:00 -
[120]
Can't see what the fuss is really. I haven't won the real life lottery either, but some people have won large prizes a couple of times.
Can I recommend the fine book: Why Do Buses Come In Threes?
Do the LPs get used up when you win a lottery? That's the only thing I'd suggest if it's not the case, ie when your agent makes a breakthrough after 50,000 LPs or whatever, those are used up and you start again.
If that's already the case I apologise. Sheesh don't you just hate people putting in their 2 ISK when they don't really know the full lowdown!
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