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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
John Ratcliffe
Sausy Sausages
210
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Posted - 2013.09.18 13:23:00 -
[91] - Quote
Kalihira wrote:if you dont care about other peoples opinion, dont post on forums.
This is how we interact with CCP, so I'll carry on. Thanks for the interest though.
Plus +ºa change, plus c'est la m+¬me chose |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1222
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Posted - 2013.09.18 19:22:00 -
[92] - Quote
Onictus wrote:stoicfaux wrote: Compare the DPS between Fury cruse missiles and Rage, CN, and Javelin torps. Then realize that Rage torps aren't practical except against the very largest and slowest of ships and structures. Don't forget to include reload time in your DPS numbers.
At 16 rounds a clip you waist a LOT of time reloading.
16 rounds AND the v-e-r-y l-o-n-g r-e-l-o-a-d t-i-m-e-r.
In this point I totally agree but not to give them more range because :bomber:, and we might like it or hate it it's the argument to consider first before touching Torps any further. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
stoicfaux
3124
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Posted - 2013.09.18 23:22:00 -
[93] - Quote
20 torps. 27 cruise missiles. Not 16.
/inner_ocd
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11727
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Posted - 2013.09.19 06:31:00 -
[94] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Onictus wrote:stoicfaux wrote: Compare the DPS between Fury cruse missiles and Rage, CN, and Javelin torps. Then realize that Rage torps aren't practical except against the very largest and slowest of ships and structures. Don't forget to include reload time in your DPS numbers.
At 16 rounds a clip you waist a LOT of time reloading. 16 rounds AND the v-e-r-y l-o-n-g r-e-l-o-a-d t-i-m-e-r. In this point I totally agree but not to give them more range because :bomber:, and we might like it or hate it it's the argument to consider first before touching Torps any further.
Wouldn't it make more sense to recalculate the bomber's bonuses after we've made the torp work for every other ship?
1 Kings 12:11
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marVLs
406
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Posted - 2013.09.19 08:05:00 -
[95] - Quote
Clip size is terrible, yep that's true - need improvement to at least 40
Torp range... bad for not insta hit BS weapon, on ship with range bonus for them they have range that should be without that bonus.
Torp damage, javelins got low damage but it's good with range buff, Rages got great damage but terrible exp radius, something wrong that BS size weapon can't hit other BS for full damage...
I like them being slow velocity, that's make them not OP with those changes, really very slow speed of them is bigger disadvantage than some may think.
There are some ideas here and there, maybe make them fast reloading weapon with big clip? (but there's a problem with that missile lag issue).
Some crazy (rather not possible) idea: torp launcher visualy have 3 missiles loaded in bay, but only one is firing and other one's are vaporizing... ******** so maybe make them clip inside a clip weapon, so from every bay they shoot 3 missiles at same time, or with 1s intervals, ofcourse this will need more balance but in imagination it looks cool and bring something fresh at last |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
486
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Posted - 2013.09.19 08:53:00 -
[96] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Clip size is terrible, yep that's true - need improvement to at least 40 Torp range... bad for not insta hit BS weapon, on ship with range bonus for them they have range that should be without that bonus. Torp damage, javelins got low damage but it's good with range buff, Rages got great damage but terrible exp radius, something wrong that BS size weapon can't hit other BS for full damage... I like them being slow velocity, that's make them not OP with those changes, really very slow speed of them is bigger disadvantage than some may think. There are some ideas here and there, maybe make them fast reloading weapon with big clip? (but there's a problem with that missile lag issue). Some crazy (rather not possible) idea: torp launcher visualy have 3 missiles loaded in bay, but only one is firing and other one's are vaporizing... ******** so maybe make them clip inside a clip weapon, so from every bay they shoot 3 missiles at same time, or with 1s intervals, ofcourse this will need more balance but in imagination it looks cool and bring something fresh at last yeah could work like anciliary shield boosters , awesome for 1 min then needs long reload time |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11729
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Posted - 2013.09.19 14:13:00 -
[97] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:marVLs wrote:Clip size is terrible, yep that's true - need improvement to at least 40 Torp range... bad for not insta hit BS weapon, on ship with range bonus for them they have range that should be without that bonus. Torp damage, javelins got low damage but it's good with range buff, Rages got great damage but terrible exp radius, something wrong that BS size weapon can't hit other BS for full damage... I like them being slow velocity, that's make them not OP with those changes, really very slow speed of them is bigger disadvantage than some may think. There are some ideas here and there, maybe make them fast reloading weapon with big clip? (but there's a problem with that missile lag issue). Some crazy (rather not possible) idea: torp launcher visualy have 3 missiles loaded in bay, but only one is firing and other one's are vaporizing... ******** so maybe make them clip inside a clip weapon, so from every bay they shoot 3 missiles at same time, or with 1s intervals, ofcourse this will need more balance but in imagination it looks cool and bring something fresh at last yeah could work like anciliary shield boosters , awesome for 1 min then needs long reload time
This would effectively be a substantial Bomber buff.
It is revealing that it takes huge bonuses like those on Stealth Bombers to make torps viable.
1 Kings 12:11
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marVLs
407
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Posted - 2013.09.19 14:26:00 -
[98] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
This would effectively be a substantial Bomber buff.
It is revealing that it takes huge bonuses like those on Stealth Bombers to make torps viable.
Of course bomber bonus should be changed, why should every other ship and torps suffer just because bombers |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1223
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Posted - 2013.09.19 18:13:00 -
[99] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Onictus wrote:stoicfaux wrote: Compare the DPS between Fury cruse missiles and Rage, CN, and Javelin torps. Then realize that Rage torps aren't practical except against the very largest and slowest of ships and structures. Don't forget to include reload time in your DPS numbers.
At 16 rounds a clip you waist a LOT of time reloading. 16 rounds AND the v-e-r-y l-o-n-g r-e-l-o-a-d t-i-m-e-r. In this point I totally agree but not to give them more range because :bomber:, and we might like it or hate it it's the argument to consider first before touching Torps any further. Wouldn't it make more sense to recalculate the bomber's bonuses after we've made the torp work for every other ship?
That indeed is the obvious route however bombers are actually quite amazing and I'm afraid they could get a "meh" effect after getting NumbersGäó revamp, you know the 7.5 and 10 they like so much
On the other side why not just adapt current ships with Torp bonus to make them a bit more useful? -aka HM Drakes/Tengus- those became useless/under used because of a tiny 2% difference before med turrets revamp, now it's more about 8 to10% buff they need to make hulls able to use them a viable choice again, yeah another thread.
In fact Bombers imho are close to stepping on the red line but they're not there yet, thus very good ships fun to fly and any number you change might affect them harder than we can expect, entire wings and tactics are build around bombers, I'm afraid in fact they become null or totally op ruining the game either one way or the other. I can agree some hulls full skills 28km is rather very very short but this is not really the ammo fault, it's ship bonus that must be changed, yes it's a bit more work to do but imho the best thing to do, if on top TP's get a boost to help them apply their dps, ammo clip/rof increased, how could this go wrong without touching bombers?
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1223
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Posted - 2013.09.19 18:25:00 -
[100] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Malcanis wrote:
This would effectively be a substantial Bomber buff.
It is revealing that it takes huge bonuses like those on Stealth Bombers to make torps viable.
Of course bomber bonus should be changed, why should every other ship and torps suffer just because bombers
I think you see the problem from the bad perspective. It's not because of bombers Torps suffer but because other ships using them, as modules supposed to help them work better, are not adapted correctly or modules don't have the efficiency they should/could have.
How many Tp bonus ships do we see in fleets or gangs and using TP's? -christ I think in all my eve career I must have seen one.
How many Torp or ships using torps threads do you see where everyone tells to use 2 TPs? -Stoicfaux is imho someone very advised about missiles, their mechanics and fits, I often read his posts about this weapon system with attention and interest because this guy knows what he talks about. We might have a different opinion on "how to" but in the end I think both don't see bombers as the true issue but the revealing element what is wrong with torps: ships bonus first then TPs (Tp is always mentioned several times in the same post sort to say how important this module is but also how much of "weak" the benefit per module is).
Torps are an extremely powerful weapon system if all factors are positive so lets not take this lightly and take the easy road to see them get nerf a couple months later, the yoyo effect is not really what I like in this game.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1228
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Posted - 2013.09.19 18:29:00 -
[101] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:20 torps. 27 cruise missiles. Not 16.
/inner_ocd
Actually 18 in Arbalest torp launchers, sry just took the quoted nbr.
Edt: yeah pg6 already ;) *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Steve Spooner
Mordu's Military Industrial Command Circle-Of-Two
127
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Posted - 2013.09.20 10:09:00 -
[102] - Quote
The issue is if you're in a torp boat a Machariel, or other sufficently quick battleship, is able to mitigate a very large amount of the damage from rage torpedos. They can at one point outrun the torpedos while still picking you with their 50km range auto cannons. |
Korvus Falek
Depraved Corruption Space Wolves Alliance
75
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Posted - 2013.09.21 12:52:00 -
[103] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: 30km range for a short range battleship weapon system is balanced with the other SR systems and ships, comparing Golem to Sbs is silly however, not only for ship size but most important because of their totally different role.
Pulse lasers and to a lesser extent 800mm arties would like a word with that.
Short range weapons systems using a long range ammo are roughly equal in optimal ranges, across the board.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
524
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Posted - 2013.09.21 13:09:00 -
[104] - Quote
Korvus Falek wrote:Onictus wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: 30km range for a short range battleship weapon system is balanced with the other SR systems and ships, comparing Golem to Sbs is silly however, not only for ship size but most important because of their totally different role.
Pulse lasers and to a lesser extent 800mm arties would like a word with that. Short range weapons systems using a long range ammo are roughly equal in optimal ranges, across the board.
Not even close |
stoicfaux
3126
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Posted - 2013.09.21 13:30:00 -
[105] - Quote
Numbers:
Torp Golem with 2xHBT2s (missile speed): javelin: 785 DPS to ~64km er 337m, ev, 133m/s
t1: 872 dps out to ~42km er 337m, ev, 133m/s
CN: 1002 dps out to ~42km er 337m, ev, 133m/s
Rage: 1178 dps out to ~35km er 580m, ev 114m/s
Cruise Golem w 2xRigor2s. t1: 647 DPS out to ~222km er 158m, ev 129m/s
Prec: 647 DPs out to ~111km er 144m, ev 155m/s
cn: 744 dps out to ~222km er 158m, ev 129m/s
Fury: 906 dps out to ~166km er 272m, ev 109m/s
Basically, a Golem with Fury missiles can do 90% of the damage of CN torps out to plaid range with similar explosion radius/velocity numbers. So unless you need that 10% damage (and/or can make Rage torps work) and fight at short range, or if you can drop the HBTs for Rigors and fight at super short range, then cruise are the way to go. |
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