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BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
6967
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 04:17:00 -
[61] - Quote
Yngwiedis wrote:BoSau Hotim wrote:
I would assign the job of diplomat to someone who does well with making friends. All that needs to happen is for you to get set to blue with a null sec alliance and work out the terms of having blue status with them. Making friends with other corps/alliances is always good. You don't necessarily need to actually join an alliance to be set to blue with them.
So where is that social interaction skill ? (Try to be funny here and not leave you with the perspective that i am not polite :) )
:) skilling it to level 5 is always a good idea
good luck to you I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!-á Now... where's Ken? |

Yngwiedis
Yngwie J. Malmsteen's Rising Force
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 04:20:00 -
[62] - Quote
Caviar Liberta wrote:
After reading this thread I'm under the impression that he wants the goods without the effort involved to get any benefits from null.
FW is null sov light. War targets and lots of pirates that want a piece of you as well. No drag bubbles hurray.
Sorry but you are wrong. I already write it in a previous posts that i don't have a problem to contribute to the alliance who will accept me as a member. I also know how much things i have to "give" in null sec because i live in null sec in the past for several months. |

Twylla
The Scope Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 04:20:00 -
[63] - Quote
Caviar Liberta wrote:Twylla wrote:Yngwiedis wrote:Caviar Liberta wrote:
NPC Null Security space. Stations and all the benefits of Null Security space without the sov politics.
But then you need to do PvP all the time you are logged in because all the people want to kill you ! Or you're told to PVP. That's usually more the case. Last run in nullsec I had, I went broke replacing ships 'cause I could never get time to make some isks to pay for them. If you aren't being b*tched at to fleet up, you're being shot at by the FC when you undock. After reading this thread I'm under the impression that he wants the goods without the effort involved to get any benefits from null. FW is null sov light. War targets and lots of pirates that want a piece of you as well. No drag bubbles hurray.
Unless you're big into PVP, there are no rewards in nulsec. You do as your told, no more, no less. You're about 99% likely to simply be conscripted as fleet fodder.
If you are a combat/industrial mix corporation, your corp will likely get picked clean for your combat personnel and your corp will then get the boot. ~Retired: Weapons R&D technician, arms manufacturer, weapons dealer, wormhole project manager, fleet pilot, capital ship pilot, alliance leader~
I've done everything. NOW GET OFF MY LAWN! |

Yngwiedis
Yngwie J. Malmsteen's Rising Force
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 04:21:00 -
[64] - Quote
BoSau Hotim wrote:
:) skilling it to level 5 is always a good idea
good luck to you
Right click > Train Now to Level 1
Thank you 
|

TharOkha
0asis Group
600
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 04:21:00 -
[65] - Quote
I can see your problem now OP. You are not well informed.
GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |

Yngwiedis
Yngwie J. Malmsteen's Rising Force
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 04:28:00 -
[66] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:I can see your problem now OP. You are not well informed.
After all those posts i think the same for myself  Misinformed to be more specific... |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
403
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 04:29:00 -
[67] - Quote
Basically CCP have got it set up in a way that lets a large alliance project its power anywhere across the map.
The fees that alliances pay for sov are so minuscule that a large alliance can drop TCUs across vast areas of null sec virtually for free.
If you tried to take a little peice of it you could, well except that alliance that "claims" it by dropping TCUs, despite not living in or using that space will get a little automated email from the server, and using bridges will stomp you out of existence and then abandon it again.
Fact is you can't claim a little peice, you're required to pay the bigger alliances for space they don't use or need, curiously the same alliances who dominate the CSM because it was set up so they could rig it to have all their members on it.
Explains a lot really.
|

Yngwiedis
Yngwie J. Malmsteen's Rising Force
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 04:36:00 -
[68] - Quote
I don't want to claim anything. I just believe that big alliances will have to accept small corps also because some times small corps have experienced members but these members don't want to join bigger corps. Thats all... |

Twylla
The Scope Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 04:40:00 -
[69] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Basically CCP have got it set up in a way that lets a large alliance project its power anywhere across the map.
The fees that alliances pay for sov are so minuscule that a large alliance can drop TCUs across vast areas of null sec virtually for free.
If you tried to take a little peice of it you could, well except that alliance that "claims" it by dropping TCUs, despite not living in or using that space will get a little automated email from the server, and using bridges will stomp you out of existence and then abandon it again.
Fact is you can't claim a little peice, you're required to pay the bigger alliances for space they don't use or need, curiously the same alliances who dominate the CSM because it was set up so they could rig it to have all their members on it.
Explains a lot really.
The solution would be to incorporate a cap to deployable TCU's. TBH, capping TCU deployment to 1 per corp means that space expansion for an alliance would have to incorporate more corporations, rather than more centralization. Every corp that is brought into the fold expands the alliances' influence, even if it's an industrial corp.
I'm a big advocate for industrial development in nulsec. It's a great place to build from scratch. Alliances do not prioritize industrial development AT ALL as an aspect of holding space. There's a lot of isk, there's a lot of resources, but nulsec alliances are allowed too much access to highsec to provide everything that the people they're booting from nulsec would do for them.
CSM packing is an issue, of course. That's up to CCP to figure out, but they're the ones who spend about ten minutes coming up with something, then spend ten days to come up with ways to destroy it. ~Retired: Weapons R&D technician, arms manufacturer, weapons dealer, wormhole project manager, fleet pilot, capital ship pilot, alliance leader~
I've done everything. NOW GET OFF MY LAWN! |

Yngwiedis
Yngwie J. Malmsteen's Rising Force
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 04:46:00 -
[70] - Quote
Twylla wrote:
I'm a big advocate for industrial development in nulsec. It's a great place to build from scratch. Alliances do not prioritize industrial development AT ALL as an aspect of holding space. There's a lot of isk, there's a lot of resources, but nulsec alliances are allowed too much access to highsec to provide everything that the people they're booting from nulsec would do for them. Jump freighters were a big mistake on this issue.
+1  |

Rhes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
194
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 05:06:00 -
[71] - Quote
Twylla wrote:Unless you're big into PVP, there are no rewards in nulsec. You do as your told, no more, no less. You're about 99% likely to simply be conscripted as fleet fodder on a daily basis.
If you are a combat/industrial mix corporation, your corp will likely get picked clean for your combat personnel and your corp will then get the boot.
It became a job. So unless you LOVE padding your pvp history with one-hit-mentions, there isn't much out there for you.
Anybody who belongs to an alliance like that should leave their alliance. What a horrible way to play the game.
|

Twylla
The Scope Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 05:09:00 -
[72] - Quote
What would need to be fixed: 1 corporation managing ALL the alliance infrastructure. This is a bad, bad, bad thing. Both for alliances and for corps wanting to hold space. Rather than worry whether 1 guy can topple your entire empire, get rid of the fulcrum entirely. Alliance infrastructure should be =decentralized= so that there isn't one point of failure, where one issue of betrayal has limited impact, and where member corporations aren't just renters, but contributors to the 'holding' of space.
All you need to do: Cap TCU deployment to 1-5 per member corp. A correlation between physical territory and membership. Cap Station ownership to 1 per member corp. (ownership, not deployment) Damper on station monopolization. Cap on POS deployment per corp (CEO skill-based limit 1-5). Damper on one-man-moon-empires. Allow corps to deploy up to 2-10 POS guns around gates (gate-gun-lite). TCU function based on time without pvp kills in-system.
Radical suggestions, and expensive to redeploy infrastructure, and not without odd holes like having dozens and dozens of holder corps, but the idea is to make the process of having 1 guy manage the whole infrastructure itself more painful than having your ********* pounded on with a spiked bat for 8 hours a day.
More corps means more people, a wider spread of population, everyone gets their stake, and wants their stations supplied with things they use often, and while there are more points of failure, the cost of sabotage is limited to a system.
~Retired: Weapons R&D technician, arms manufacturer, weapons dealer, wormhole project manager, fleet pilot, capital ship pilot, alliance leader~
I've done everything. NOW GET OFF MY LAWN! |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
403
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 05:10:00 -
[73] - Quote
Twylla wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Basically CCP have got it set up in a way that lets a large alliance project its power anywhere across the map.
The fees that alliances pay for sov are so minuscule that a large alliance can drop TCUs across vast areas of null sec virtually for free.
If you tried to take a little peice of it you could, well except that alliance that "claims" it by dropping TCUs, despite not living in or using that space will get a little automated email from the server, and using bridges will stomp you out of existence and then abandon it again.
Fact is you can't claim a little peice, you're required to pay the bigger alliances for space they don't use or need, curiously the same alliances who dominate the CSM because it was set up so they could rig it to have all their members on it.
Explains a lot really.
The solution would be to incorporate a cap to deployable TCU's. TBH, capping TCU deployment to 1 per corp means that space expansion for an alliance would have to incorporate more corporations, rather than more centralization. Every corp that is brought into the fold expands the alliances' influence, even if it's an industrial corp. I'm a big advocate for industrial development in nulsec. It's a great place to build from scratch. Alliances do not prioritize industrial development AT ALL as an aspect of holding space. There's a lot of isk, there's a lot of resources, but nulsec alliances are allowed too much access to highsec to provide everything that the people they're booting from nulsec would do for them. Jump freighters were a big mistake on this issue. CSM packing is an issue. That's up to CCP to figure out. Of course, they'd just toss that to the CSM anyway >.> All they would do would make one man dummy corps to drop a TCU. If you required a certain member count they'd dump alts in, drop the TCU and so on.
If you made it scale by number of tcu's, like how war decs work, multiplying the cost they'd break the alliances up. Whatever fix you put in they would find a hole and exploit it because that's what they do because CCP allows it. Same as they allow them to drive war dec prices up by deccing themselves or avoiding wars by disbanding enemy alliances because one person forgot to kick a lasped account a few years ago.
Edit: lol you addressed the disbanding idiocy while I was typing my post :) |

Twylla
The Scope Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 05:10:00 -
[74] - Quote
Rhes wrote:
Anybody who belongs to an alliance like that should leave their alliance. What a horrible way to play the game.
Sadly, I've flown under 'holders' for BoB, Goons, and Red over the years. I've yet to find an alliance that isn't like that. ~Retired: Weapons R&D technician, arms manufacturer, weapons dealer, wormhole project manager, fleet pilot, capital ship pilot, alliance leader~
I've done everything. NOW GET OFF MY LAWN! |

Ciaphas Cyne
Turalyon Plus Turalyon Alliance
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 05:34:00 -
[75] - Quote
oh no! another perfect pull from eves resident stealth troll!
hi! |

Jim Era
7528
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 05:44:00 -
[76] - Quote
I agree, I need a home in cloud ring immediately |

l0rd carlos
Friends Of Harassment
566
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 06:09:00 -
[77] - Quote
Do you want to own SOV?
For PvP it's enough to day trip into 0.0 For PvE you can just log out in space after your time is gone. There is also NPC 0.0. There is NRDS systems like Providence. Even in a small'ish corp you can rent a System. (If you got the money) German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com |

Julius Priscus
130
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 06:50:00 -
[78] - Quote
Yngwiedis wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? Who is the cow and what is the milk ?
go rent a system. or three -»\_(pâä)_/-»-á Sup cracka ! |

Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1047
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 07:22:00 -
[79] - Quote
Accepting 20 corps with 10 members each means you have 20 CEOs who feel entitled to have some say in leadership discussions, you have at least 20 corp-level diplomats to deal with and you probably have another 40 corp-level directors who also want to be treated as if they are important.
You also have 20 corps that you have to consider when evaluating fleet participation and distributing the spoils (i.e. moons) and small corps can really mess up your usual performance metrics: a ten person corp can easily have either really high or really low fleet participation. If you go by fleet members/corp size they might end up with higher rewards than bigger corps could ever hope to achieve. On the other hand you might have to kick half of them after every second campaign because two of their players went on holidays and now their contribution to the campaign effort was 0.
And you have 20 different recruitment policies each of which might be a an open gate to awoxers and spies.
One 200 man corp is much easier to handle for the alliance and there isn't a shortage of medium-sized corporations that would force alliances to put up with the antics of ultra-small corps.
Hope that answers your question. |

Twylla
The Scope Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 07:27:00 -
[80] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:Accepting 20 corps with 10 members each means you have 20 CEOs who feel entitled to have some say in leadership discussions, you have at least 20 corp-level diplomats to deal with and you probably have another 40 corp-level directors who also want to be treated as if they are important.
You also have 20 corps that you have to consider when evaluating fleet participation and distributing the spoils (i.e. moons) and small corps can really mess up your usual performance metrics: a ten person corp can easily have either really high or really low fleet participation. If you go by fleet members/corp size they might end up with higher rewards than bigger corps could ever hope to achieve. On the other hand you might have to kick half of them after every second campaign.
And you have 20 different recruitment policies each of which might be a an open gate to awoxers and spies.
One 200 man corp is much easier to handle for the alliance and there isn't a shortage of medium-sized corporations that would force alliances to put up with the antics of ultra-small corps.
Hope that answers your question.
Pretty good point, although I'd say every corp has the same 'antics' as any other corp, some just get their way. Every corp's leadership exists as an ego, and just 'cause one's in an alliance doesn't mean they aren't unqualified egotists.
In fact, politics exists as a forum for unqualified egotists. If you want a forum for qualified egotists, you go to a pvp forum. That's not to say they're effective leaders.
Corps in EVE online generally stay small because of the sh*tty internal controls for dealing with thieves and the like. Establishing sufficient trust doesn't come with recruiting 200 people into the fold. I've seen everything from corporate theft to capital ship construction sabotage. What makes you think I'd be so willing to have a 200 man corp? 20 is easier to manage and track if something goes wrong. ~Weapons R&D technician, arms manufacturer, weapons dealer, wormhole project manager, nulsec fleet pilot, armored warfare command/mindlink specialist, thanatos pilot, alliance executor, now retired~
I've done everything. NOW GET OFF MY LAWN! |

Rhes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
194
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 07:46:00 -
[81] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:If you made it scale by number of tcu's, like how war decs work, multiplying the cost they'd break the alliances up. Whatever fix you put in they would find a hole and exploit it because that's what they do because CCP allows it. Same as they allow them to drive war dec prices up by deccing themselves or avoiding wars by disbanding enemy alliances because one person forgot to kick a lasped account a few years ago.
CCP should ban making friends.
|

Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1047
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 07:54:00 -
[82] - Quote
Twylla wrote: What makes you think I'd be so willing to have a 200 man corp? 20 is easier to manage and track if something goes wrong. I don't care what style of corp you like and neither does the alliance that won't consider your corp for recruitment.
I'm not arguing that it is better for the corp to be large, I am arguing that alliances want to deal with a small number of corporations. As long as there are enough medium-sized corporations out there (and there are) this means the alliance has no need to go to the trouble of dealing with your 20man corp.
For an alliance small corporations create a disproportionally large amount of administrative overhead and drama. That's why alliances prefer large corporations. If you don't want to play in a large corporation then that's your choice and perfectly fine by me.
(Also of the 200 people in a corp approximately 195 don't need any corp roles so I don't buy your "corp theft" argument.) |

Twylla
The Scope Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 08:42:00 -
[83] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:Twylla wrote: What makes you think I'd be so willing to have a 200 man corp? 20 is easier to manage and track if something goes wrong. I don't care what style of corp you like and neither does the alliance that won't consider your corp for recruitment. I'm not arguing that it is better for the corp to be large, I am arguing that alliances want to deal with a small number of corporations. As long as there are enough medium-sized corporations out there (and there are) this means the alliance has no need to go to the trouble of dealing with your 20man corp. For an alliance small corporations create a disproportionally large amount of administrative overhead and drama. That's why alliances prefer large corporations. If you don't want to play in a large corporation then that's your choice and perfectly fine by me. (Also of the 200 people in a corp approximately 195 don't need any corp roles so I don't buy your "corp theft" argument.)
Good point. When I was executor, the founding corps just spent all day bickering until I put my foot down and made a command decision. Started with the alliance name and just went downhill from there. I was *supposed* to just be flipping switches so nobody got a fat head.
So I'm well familiar with the headache of having a lot of smaller corps with big egos. Big corps in alliances are just as tough to deal with, only with the added political BS of having to give them their way 'lest the CEO's ego calls for a balk and walk. ~Weapons R&D technician, arms manufacturer, weapons dealer, wormhole project manager, nulsec fleet pilot, armored warfare command/mindlink specialist, thanatos pilot, alliance executor, now retired~
I've done everything. NOW GET OFF MY LAWN! |

Cavalira
Valar Morghulis. Goonswarm Federation
171
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 09:31:00 -
[84] - Quote
Why won't a company give me a nice good job before I graduate?
You can easily go in and start SBUing systems. EVE is a sandbox. |

Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1047
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 09:41:00 -
[85] - Quote
@Twylla I think we can agree that - no matter what exactly your preferred corp size is - it is a good idea to have roughly equally sized corporations in your alliance.
The example you outline (which is something I have seen happening before, so I have a fairly good idea of what you are talking about) is probably due to the relative size of the "big" corp compared to the other corporations in your alliance.
Dealing with corporations that are much bigger or much smaller than the average corporation in your alliance tends to introduce additional challenges and often invites trouble. Too big corporations have too much negotiating power and can strong arm your alliance, too small corporations will require to be judged by different standards than the other alliance members.
However, the "too big" side of the problem can in practice be mitigated by having the alliance-defining corporation (which also provides most of the leadership personnel) become so big that any potential alliance member will pale in comparison.
Goonswarm Federation doesn't have to worry about WIdot being twice as large as the next largest corporation (967 to 450 members) because GoonWaffe itself is more than 3x the size of WIdot (3395 to 967) and because WIdot - despite being the second largest corp - only makes up less than 10% of the alliance (967 out of 10653 = 9%, slightly more if you consider WIdot members in alt corps but not enough to matter).
So for these alliances (TEST was structured very similarly) the corporations that are "too small" tend to create more trouble than the corporations that are "too big" (yet still dwarfed by the alliance's core corporation). |

Twylla
The Scope Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 09:57:00 -
[86] - Quote
Having small corps isn't always a problem. A headache, sure, but it shouldn't be a 'problem'. If you have trouble holding on to space without forced conscription, you're on pretty shaky ground to begin with.
@Vera Very true.
R&D and manufacturing groups have to stay small for security purposes, but they're some of the healthiest things to have in nullsec. Yet, at the same time, people have this unhealthy obsession with calling them 'freeloaders'.
Small corps, especially those with well skilled industrial development staff, can mean locally manufactured (and less expensive) supplies compared to Jump crews to move freighters.. only they're usually just thrown into unstable regions and fleeced as an improvised defense force. You'd get bitchy as someone who wants pvp to be told to shut up and mine at the drop of a hat every day. Works both ways, really. That's when you have problems with bitchy corps.
There's too much to develop. R&D takes towers, space, and isk. Manufacturing needs time to accrue resources, which in turn needs teams of 'carebears' grinding up rocks which they are all too happy to do. That means guns, ships, ammunition, fits, all available on-site at the nearest station at the drop of a hat. Having the on-hand material resources to replace entire fleets already on the market beats having to JF replacement doctrine ships once a week.
Yet instead you've got maybe 1 guy with a bunch of alts out of every 2-300+ people supporting the critical industrial backbone, and that's usually just moongoo monopolizing, JF shipping, and capital ship production. ~Weapons R&D technician, arms manufacturer, weapons dealer, wormhole project manager, nulsec fleet pilot, armored warfare command/mindlink specialist, thanatos pilot, alliance executor, now retired~
I've done everything. NOW GET OFF MY LAWN! |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1464
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:32:00 -
[87] - Quote
Twylla wrote:And why is that? Because industrialists are carebears, carebears are freeloaders, and freeloaders should be kicked out? no it's because production or having something produced in highsec is better, more efficient, less risky and cheaper in every way due to poor game design meaning a producer in nullsec is wasting money, resources and space |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
403
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:35:00 -
[88] - Quote
Rhes wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:If you made it scale by number of tcu's, like how war decs work, multiplying the cost they'd break the alliances up. Whatever fix you put in they would find a hole and exploit it because that's what they do because CCP allows it. Same as they allow them to drive war dec prices up by deccing themselves or avoiding wars by disbanding enemy alliances because one person forgot to kick a lasped account a few years ago. CCP should ban making friends. Or just lazy alliances that prefer to drop 50 TCU's at once and ninja stations rather than have a good fight eh? Although to be fair its more a result of the rest of EvE nullseccers being pussies and no one would have turned up to stop you grinding them anyway. |

Twylla
The Scope Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:37:00 -
[89] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Twylla wrote:And why is that? Because industrialists are carebears, carebears are freeloaders, and freeloaders should be kicked out? no it's because production or having something produced in highsec is better, more efficient, less risky and cheaper in every way due to poor game design meaning a producer in nullsec is wasting money, resources and space
Without going into a massive essay again (slow night away from the computer), yes.
Attitudes are one part of the problem. Game mechanics like you mention are the another part.
There seems to be absolutely no overhead costs associated with highsec manufacturing that would allow POS-based manufacturing to compete. Sounds like an NPC slot price hike to me. Double benefit for being a bigger ISK sink. ~Weapons R&D technician, arms manufacturer, weapons dealer, wormhole project manager, nulsec fleet pilot, armored warfare command/mindlink specialist, thanatos pilot, alliance executor, now retired~
I've done everything. NOW GET OFF MY LAWN! |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1464
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 10:40:00 -
[90] - Quote
i think attitudes would change very quickly once it became a viable and useful option
i mean, goonswarm saw a spreadsheet and now they're renting space |
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