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Jack Morrison
Sinister Spinster Triple Penetration Empire
54
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Posted - 2013.09.18 16:33:00 -
[31] - Quote
After reading some meaningful cons i came to the conclusion that skilling purely skill points is not the proper solution. The true solution was proposed - let us change skills through eve gate. |

embrel
BamBam Inc.
57
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 16:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Can I please have a day's worth of plex-running in ISK too for when I'm not only too lazybusy to login and check my queue, but too lazybusy to login and rat as well?
Thanks much.
-Derp
The online-times in the basement are all the time and everybody else is weird? |

Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
150
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 16:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jack Morrison wrote:After reading some meaningful cons i came to the conclusion that skilling purely skill points is not the way to go. The topic can be closesd by a move that was already proposed - let us change skills through eve gate.
No, it really is a decent idea, the forums are just full of trolls that damn near **** themselves when a "new" idea comes along. You can recognize them because they love saying "risk versus reward" and "EVE is harsh" and other such notable cliches for their favorite internet spaceship video game.
The skill queue, by and large, is a way to get players to truly "invest" in the game. Many MMO players will take periodic breaks from the game, letting their subscription lapse and then quickly grinding up what they missed when they return. In EVE, that doesn't work; if you're going to not play the game for a while, you have to decide if you want to 1) let your sub lapse and miss out on skill points, or 2) continue to to subscribe and force yourself to log in whenever necessary to update your skill queue, a process that can range from once a month to twice a week depending on the skills you are training.
CCP could give us the ability to update our queue from EVE Gate, but that cuts against the primary reason they chose the "skill queue" method of character advancement in the first place. Your idea does the same thing (eliminates the need to log in periodically and always be "thinking" about EVE to some degree) but has the plus side of encouraging players to keep their sub active, even if they don't/can't update the skill queue.
Repeating what was said half a dozen times (and ignored by half a dozen trolls) you could set a cap on the unallocated skills that you accrue; best way would be to train at a rate that treats you as having no allocated attributes or attributes at all, and then tack on an additional -3 to each of your already-zeroed attributes. There is no way to "game" this system; you're being penalized for not picking a skill, anyway you look at it . . . but, your character is still "progressing" to a non-trivial degree.
Is it worth developer time and resources? Probably not. But it's not a bad idea, and would certainly be a decent feature to add to the game (might also give CCP a nice fall back to rely on during unexpected downtimes. Rather than go about reimbursing everyone because a small fraction of players had their skill queue expire, CCP could just say, "yeah, we're sorry, but at least you got some skill points!)
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Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
150
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Posted - 2013.09.18 16:59:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:To be linear... if we pay for 30 days of game time, we should have 30 days of GǪgame time. And that is exactly what you get. What you choose to do with that game time is up to you. If you can't make any use of it GÇö not even log in once every 1GÇô4 weeks to update the skill queue GÇö then maybe it's about time to stop paying for something you obviously have no use or time for.
Now, you appear to spend literally 24 hours a day on these forums, and I sincerely hope that you're getting paid to spend all your time on a video game forum, but . . . maybe you'll concede you're not the best judge of how much time people can or should spend with a video game? |

Murk Paradox
Duty. The Cursed Few
513
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 17:24:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:To be linear... if we pay for 30 days of game time, we should have 30 days of GǪgame time. And that is exactly what you get. What you choose to do with that game time is up to you. If you can't make any use of it GÇö not even log in once every 1GÇô4 weeks to update the skill queue GÇö then maybe it's about time to stop paying for something you obviously have no use or time for.
Why would you even begin to suggest how I should play the game or do with my accounts as I see fit?
Why do I NEED to have skills that need to be updated so frequently?
Why if I am stacking skills and am finishing a L3 do I need to stack L4 and then wait 9 days so I can stack L5?
Why make L5 take 23 days to train where as if I am not using that pilot until it's a matter of optimization (such as titans or caps and bridging etc) if based on your suggestion I unsub that account?
If I'm locked into a ship or if that pilot is based on very specific uses, my usage of that pilot should have 0 bearing on my access or login count. Especially when it is an active account.
Why not start charging people by the week since you seem to advocate such a short term investment.
This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate. |

Eggs Ackley
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 17:59:00 -
[36] - Quote
OP gets my award for the most consistently weird posts. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16507
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 18:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Why would you even begin to suggest how I should play the game or do with my accounts as I see fit? I'm not. I'm suggesting that if you're not playing the game, maybe you should stop paying for it because it rather seems like a waste of money to do otherwise.
Quote:Why not start charging people by the week since you seem to advocate such a short term investment. I'm not.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:Now, you appear to spend literally 24 hours a day on these forums Don't trust appearances GÇö especially not ones you've made up yourself.
Quote:maybe you'll concede you're not the best judge of how much time people can or should spend with a video game? No. Why should I? Especially since what I'm talking about is how they spend their money, not their time. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4653
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 18:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
1: Obviously the current system encourages logging in frequently, the alternatives do not. If you log in, even if only to change skills, it's much more likely you'll stick around to take care of some other business at the same time.
2: More importantly this would be exploitable. As has been explained people would happily train up alts with unallocated skill points (even with a penalty to points accrued) as they would be incredibly valuable for resale in the Character Bazaar. People would pay inordinately high sums for characters with a large amount of unallocated skill points they could use to custom craft a character. Normal characters that contain "wasted" skill points (those being skill points spent in a way not precisely fitting the buyers training plan) would be left to rot.... or would be sold for much reduced prices.
I don't think that either one of the obstacles above can be easily gotten around. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |

Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
152
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 18:40:00 -
[39] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:Now, you appear to spend literally 24 hours a day on these forums Tippia wrote:Don't trust appearances GÇö especially not ones you've made up yourself.
Uh, not trusting "appearances" - your posting history is right over there. I swear I didn't make up the fact that you spend more time posting about EVE than most hard working people spend at their jobs . . .
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:maybe you'll concede you're not the best judge of how much time people can or should spend with a video game? Tippia wrote:No. Why should I? Especially since what I'm talking about is how they spend their money, not their time.
Of course I should have known better, sorry for putting you on the spot. Seriously though, you can probably be a tremendous resource for players who don't understand all the ins and outs of the mechanics of EVE - but you were, in fact, trying to address "time spent" on this game as a way to measure the need for a feature, and because you seem to have lost all perspective with respect to what is an average amount of time to spend on a video game (almost said "healthy" but didn't want to insult you), you're honestly not in a good position to offer any opinions.
To make it crystal clear: many of us go weeks without even thinking about EVE. Sometimes we're too busy; other times we just have a million other little things pulling at our time/attention. It would be nice for us average folk to have a fall back to rely on in case we spend "too much time AFE" (Away From Eve) while still subscribed. To you, that's maybe "entitled" but to those of us with a smidge of perspective, it actually makes a fair amount of sense.
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Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
152
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Posted - 2013.09.18 18:43:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:1: Obviously the current system encourages logging in frequently, the alternatives do not. If you log in, even if only to change skills, it's much more likely you'll stick around to take care of some other business at the same time.
2: More importantly this would be exploitable. As has been explained people would happily train up alts with unallocated skill points (even with a penalty to points accrued) as they would be incredibly valuable for resale in the Character Bazaar. People would pay inordinately high sums for characters with a large amount of unallocated skill points they could use to custom craft a character. Normal characters that contain "wasted" skill points (those being skill points spent in a way not precisely fitting the buyers training plan) would be left to rot.... or would be sold for much reduced prices.
I don't think that either one of the obstacles above can be easily gotten around.
It's almost like you didn't even read the thread, but instead decided to post with whatever tickled your fancy . . .
Read post #33. It easily "gets around" both obstacles you cited . . .
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1222
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 18:46:00 -
[41] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:TheBigmanoncampus wrote:So basically people wouldn't even have to log on and stay docked to train? Bad idea is really, really bad. Versus what... logging in, setting skills, and logging off? You're still paying a monthly sub.
Why not ask for play time rewarding like xp per rat or player ship kill mission accomplished etc?
NOES !!
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
468
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 18:49:00 -
[42] - Quote
BEPOHNKA wrote:I never seen this before or any body ask this type of topic? So we have nothing in training mode should we still be able to build up training points? 
I like it. Same rules as usual though (no ghost training). |

Vexed Nova
FDA Shipwrights
22
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 18:49:00 -
[43] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote:That's like saying "I didn't do any uni work, but can I have that masters degree anyway?"
No. LOL If at first you don't succeed, skydiving was not for you. Check out the Industrialist, a monthy industrial news letter. September 2013 Issue:-á http://bit.ly/17ucH9D/ |

Kirluin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 19:58:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jack Morrison wrote:After reading some meaningful cons i came to the conclusion that skilling purely skill points is not the way to go. The topic can be closesd by a move that was already proposed - let us change skills through eve gate.
evegate skill queue is a good start. really a mobile app that lets you do anything you could do in station (skills, market, chat etc.) would be the real deal.
Update your PI while on the t... on break. |

Zaxix
Long Jump.
246
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 21:27:00 -
[45] - Quote
Is the OP asking how skillpoints might have accumulated (i.e. he sees points and can't figure out where he got them, in which case SP were given out a few times when the servers went down for an extended period of time), or is he making a proposal? Hard to tell with the bad english. Bokononist
-á |

Murk Paradox
Duty. The Cursed Few
516
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 21:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:TheBigmanoncampus wrote:So basically people wouldn't even have to log on and stay docked to train? Bad idea is really, really bad. Versus what... logging in, setting skills, and logging off? You're still paying a monthly sub. Why not ask for play time rewarding like xp per rat or player ship kill mission accomplished etc? NOES !!
Because extending the skill queue would be far more efficient and "fair" as opposed to reinventing the wheel.
Keep in mind, I'm not advocating or asking for anything "extra", only that skill queues meet the amount of time skills take.
There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to plan 2 weeks of skilling when even 1 skill can take 23 days to complete. This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate. |

Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
153
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 21:43:00 -
[47] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:TheBigmanoncampus wrote:So basically people wouldn't even have to log on and stay docked to train? Bad idea is really, really bad. Versus what... logging in, setting skills, and logging off? You're still paying a monthly sub. Why not ask for play time rewarding like xp per rat or player ship kill mission accomplished etc? NOES !! Because extending the skill queue would be far more efficient and "fair" as opposed to reinventing the wheel. Keep in mind, I'm not advocating or asking for anything "extra", only that skill queues meet the amount of time skills take. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to plan 2 weeks of skilling when even 1 skill can take 23 days to complete.
Love your sig. I am not an alt of Chribba. |

Murk Paradox
Duty. The Cursed Few
516
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 21:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
Thanks. Sad I have to use it (for now). This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate. |

Theodora Humphrey
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 22:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
NO BECAUSE NO FOR THE REASONS NO NO AND NO, BACKED UP BY SUCH EVIDENCE AS NO, NO, NO AND NO.
SOURCE: PROFESSIONAL NO |

Johan Civire
The Lyran Empire
638
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 02:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
No, this is just wrong so you make a account then you make a char you do nothing just login ones go offline then you come back 4 years later done training now i can sell this account for some money. No just no this is just to bad. |

BEPOHNKA
The Scope Gallente Federation
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 03:34:00 -
[51] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Buhhdust Princess wrote:That's like saying "I didn't do any uni work, but can I have that masters degree anyway?"
No. I see it as "Yes I know I am changing my degree, but I still took all my general education classes and want to apply them as credit hours). I don't see why you can't generate blank skillpoints, we as players get awarded with them from time to time as it is. If you're skill queue runs out, there's no reason why it wouldn't default to say, a pool that gains a rate of 80% with no bonuses from implants. Technically it isn't our fault that our skill queue is as short as it is when we have PLENTY of skills exceeding multiple days and weeks!
This is the ideas i'm heading too.... generate blank skillpoints and use them when needed! |

BEPOHNKA
The Scope Gallente Federation
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 03:37:00 -
[52] - Quote
Johan Civire wrote:No, this is just wrong so you make a account then you make a char you do nothing just login ones go offline then you come back 4 years later done training now i can sell this account for some money. No just no this is just to bad.
You cant gain blank skill points when your account goese offline! Just like you cant now, you stop paying your account stops training! |

Emily Anasarsy
Reverse Engineering LTD
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 10:48:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: 2: More importantly this would be exploitable. As has been explained people would happily train up alts with unallocated skill points (even with a penalty to points accrued) as they would be incredibly valuable for resale in the Character Bazaar. People would pay inordinately high sums for characters with a large amount of unallocated skill points they could use to custom craft a character. Normal characters that contain "wasted" skill points (those being skill points spent in a way not precisely fitting the buyers training plan) would be left to rot.... or would be sold for much reduced prices.
I don't think that either one of the obstacles above can be easily gotten around.
I don't think that will be the case, if for example it was implemented base don lowest attribute -3 or even just the lowest attribute. The time it will take to accrue enough SP to make a sell able character would not be as efficient as just spending the money you would have spent on subscription on PLEX and selling it.
Yes some people would be able to afford to pay for a simmed character with PLEX but not everyone has that luxury. You could limit it further and limit passive SP gain to one character per account. This wont stop the problem but it would force people to make new accounts just to passively train up a character.
There is a lot of pros and cons to this idea, but the bottom line is, not everyone has time or circumstances in their favour to religiously keep the skill queue rolling, what if a serviceman goes on tour but would like to keep his/her account active? You expect them to be logging in every 4-20 days from Iraq to update the skill queue?
Just because everyone else can sit at home most of the day playing with the PLEX they bought with the ISK they made does not mean the few that don't have this luxury due to work, commitments or other reasons and drive the game by actually paying real money for the game have to suffer.
Yes I apologise for the rant, but it annoys me when people who effectively play for free because they can sit around making ISK all day seem to throw away every idea that makes it easier for the actual paying customers to stay subscribed and interested. |

Emily Anasarsy
Reverse Engineering LTD
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 10:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:TheBigmanoncampus wrote:So basically people wouldn't even have to log on and stay docked to train? Bad idea is really, really bad. Versus what... logging in, setting skills, and logging off? You're still paying a monthly sub. Why not ask for play time rewarding like xp per rat or player ship kill mission accomplished etc? NOES !!
You get XP for ratting??!?!?!
WHY HAVE I NO LEVELED UP YET!?!?!?!
Really?
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2824

|
Posted - 2013.09.19 11:01:00 -
[55] - Quote
Moving from General Discussion to Features & Ideas Discussion. EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative GÇ+ EVE Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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BEPOHNKA
The Scope Gallente Federation
85
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 13:40:00 -
[56] - Quote
Well,
I don't see why we can't get gain exp for not training. This day in age you plug your head in to the computer and learn instantly anyways! |

Kirluin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 16:15:00 -
[57] - Quote
Side effects of allowing untrained skill points to pile up are real and worth looking at. So lets take off the "I WANT" hat and put on the game designer hairpiece.
so what if someone rolls up a blank character with 40 million unspent skill points and sells it? even if unspent points accrue at a really reduced rate, people will inevitably do it. Such a character would be worth more $$ because of the crazy flexibility and because it would cost more to make.
after a few years you would have an influx of "perfect skilled" characters. You can get "perfect skilled" characters today if someone manages the skill queue properly, but they're pregenerated for a specific set, so finding the exact one you want is tougher.
having lots of perfect skillable characters for sale could alter game fun where long skill train times are meant to be the "cost". not just titan pilots, but marauders/pirate ships with dual race requirements etc. folks would be able to get these things instantly.
So why is that bad? I recently finally skilled up into a carrier (a project i've worked on and off on for like a year). I've always been a drone freak and keep trying to relive my homeworld 2 days. Finally getting into a carrier was a pretty big rush and was a nice game payoff. Had I been able to buy my way into one I probably would have, yet I would ironically have denied myself the super cool rush of finally achieving a long term goal. I'd have enjoyed it, but not nearly as much.
The "hard work -> payoff" rush is what a game wants to provide. its HUGE. that's why people get their friends to join. But you cant depend on players to see that when you nerf stuff or make it harder. Everyone remembers the awesome night when they met an evenly matched fleet and the outcome was in doubt, but your crew pulled it out of the fire and trounced the other guys. Yet most people would, if possible, summon the blob instead so they could be assured another easy (and easily forgotten) win.
That's a long way to say "No unlimited sp accrual. Keep hard goals hard, and hard goals worthwhile."
solve the problem another way, either by capping it at a small amount to let help travellers, or (better) give us a way to interact with the game world from anywhere. |

supernova ranger
The End of Eternity Ad-Astra
67
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 16:18:00 -
[58] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote:That's like saying "I didn't do any uni work, but can I have that masters degree anyway?"
No.
you can get a masters? :O |

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1223
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 17:54:00 -
[59] - Quote
Emily Anasarsy wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:TheBigmanoncampus wrote:So basically people wouldn't even have to log on and stay docked to train? Bad idea is really, really bad. Versus what... logging in, setting skills, and logging off? You're still paying a monthly sub. Why not ask for play time rewarding like xp per rat or player ship kill mission accomplished etc? NOES !! You get XP for ratting??!?!?! WHY HAVE I NO LEVELED UP YET!?!?!?! Really?
Of course you do, you get playing experience when you pvp and pve, this is awesome in such complicated game *sic* and on top you win SKILL POINTS either you're online or not as long as you CHOOSE to fill your SKILLS QUE.
This is absolutely Evetastic !! *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |

Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
377
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 18:20:00 -
[60] - Quote
Princess Saskia wrote:Actually this could be worked into quite a good idea, If your skills on your skillque run out then you train 'skillpoints' based on having no implants and default attributes. These would then be automatical reallocated to the next skill that you put into your skillque. Only allowing skills that you currently have injected to be allowed to have sp placed into them. (yay for not being put in a bad mood when you can't login) You pay sub to train skillpoints basically why should you be stopped if you can't access the game for a few days unexpectedly.
It would be good design, if it was deliberately inefficient, as in only 1/3 or 1/2 as efficient as training an actually chosen skill. |
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