TL; DR.

TL;DR: You're killing the game.

EVE is dying (again) thread detected.

CCP needs better control of their New Player experience.

The direction that CCP is going with the game doesn't concern me nearly as much as the direction the Players are going with the Player Driven Content.

The major issues in the game are caused by the Player base. Most games of this sort have a foundation struggle of "Good vs Evil", but the players have drifted so far into the "Immoral" direction that it's like playing a game of "Bad Pirate vs Worse Pirate" and the "Good Guys" are all but defenseless. Personally I call it the "Grand Theft Auto" mentality.

It is destructive, childish, and will eventually destroy the game for many people.

The direction that CCP is going with the game doesn't concern me nearly as much as the direction the Players are going with the Player Driven Content.

The major issues in the game are caused by the Player base. Most games of this sort have a foundation struggle of "Good vs Evil", but the players have drifted so far into the "Immoral" direction that it's like playing a game of "Bad Pirate vs Worse Pirate" and the "Good Guys" are all but defenseless. Personally I call it the "Grand Theft Auto" mentality.

It is destructive, childish, and will eventually destroy the game for many people.

No !

It's the PLAYERS who have responsibility here, not CCP !

I think history has shown how difficult it is to rely on the Players to do anything positive. At one end, there's herding cats, at the other end, there's ganking the crazy cat lady and then eating her cats alive, one by one, in front of her. EVE players tend to be closer to the latter.

You are a part of the issue and not related to a solution.

Nobody in this game is defenseless per se.

I fail to see how this related to what i was saying.
You seem to be generalizing way too much.

there are plenty of players drawn to eve by the ganking, and there are always questions in rookie help about being the bad guy.


Pro-Synergy is, in my opinion, a good way for newbies (and some alts of bitter vets that I know of) to get isk fairly fast while learning other things.

You are omitting one thing in your analysis, you need there to be a steady supply of carebears, otherwise you will end up ganking other gankers who will gank you back and then who would get the salvage and stuff to build your ships to throw at concord?

Perhaps I shouldn't have skimmed, but I came away with:

"declare war on new players in general"

Getting right on it.

Or now that you're sobering up, you need to realize that your High Self and your Sober Self don't agree on much. Your High Self and I think your Sober Self is wrong about your opinion of us.

Maybe your herbage magnified the issue in your mind. It can do that to me as well.

The direction that CCP is going with the game doesn't concern me nearly as much as the direction the Players are going with the Player Driven Content.

The major issues in the game are caused by the Player base. Most games of this sort have a foundation struggle of "Good vs Evil", but the players have drifted so far into the "Immoral" direction that it's like playing a game of "Bad Pirate vs Worse Pirate" and the "Good Guys" are all but defenseless. Personally I call it the "Grand Theft Auto" mentality.

It is destructive, childish, and will eventually destroy the game for many people.

OP = Creative Writing Assignment

Topic:

Fear and Loathing in New Eden

Instructions:

- in 6000 words or less do your best to emulate the writing style of Hunter S. Thompson while commenting on a niche-culture active in 2013.


....

Grade B+

Who ?

HAHAHAHAHA THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID !!! :D

The direction that CCP is going with the game doesn't concern me nearly as much as the direction the Players are going with the Player Driven Content.

The major issues in the game are caused by the Player base. Most games of this sort have a foundation struggle of "Good vs Evil", but the players have drifted so far into the "Immoral" direction that it's like playing a game of "Bad Pirate vs Worse Pirate" and the "Good Guys" are all but defenseless. Personally I call it the "Grand Theft Auto" mentality.

It is destructive, childish, and will eventually destroy the game for many people.

I'd say the vast majority of new players start with mining and missions to make their initial isk. Mining is a safe way to make some isk while in your first few weeks and your combat skills suck. Doing so does not commit you to a carebear life.

OP = Creative Writing Assignment

Topic:

Fear and Loathing in New Eden

Instructions:

- in 6000 words or less do your best to emulate the writing style of Hunter S. Thompson while commenting on a niche-culture active in 2013.


....

Grade B+

Considering this, it comes to no big surprise that many (most?) of the more successful Alliances recruit their players from out of game communities.

While this might be perfectly fine for the newbies for said alliances, it puts the non-affiliated eve beginners even more at a disadvantage, since they will most likely be recruited by one of those carebear highsec indy corps and may quit the game frustrated without even having realized for a minute what this game could have offered them besides boring mining OPs.

For a long time, I believed that wardeccing those corps and trying to eliminate them as quickly as possible would help the situation, but I fear that it is just driving away the unlucky newbies trapped inside even faster.

So what can be done?
Don't expect the players to change, people are people, they will not change.
Some random ideas:
-CCP could remove all ore belts from highsec (maybe except for Veldspar), so even beginner indy corps would be forced to move to lowsec or null and adopt a less risk averse playstyle.
-Starter regions could be designed as single system highsec islands surrounded by lowsec.
-The scanning tutorial could let the newbie find his first wormhole and offer WH missions for a smoother transition into W space.

Flame away \o/

You may as well be right, that the vast majority is doing it.

It's also right that mining is a safe way to make isk, if you don't really care about making a lot of it,
but that's okay, as the new player doesn't actually know or care anyway.

Thus he just keeps mining, instead of doing any other thing he could do,
but he simply doesn't know about, because he gets told to mine or run missions.

I never said that doing so commits to a carebear life per se,
but i am pointing out said carebear influence in the new player corps
and that new players can be shaped in a way that ends this once and for all.

Essentially your OP is much ado about nothing, said in too many words.

Why ?

You come up with this crap *CCP could do*,
although the issue has *nothing* to do with CCP !

Nothing !

It's a purely player-driven issue !

Because it is very hard to change established human behavior patterns, even more so if we are talking about around 500k players.
It's much easier to change a few lines in the code of a computer game than the attitude and behavior of 500.000 humans.

No.

You have no idea.

It's a player-driven issue, solvable by player interaction and not by changing the game.
That won't solve anything at all, because the influence at the human level remains.


When was the last time you rolled a new char and tried playing with new people ?

When was the last time you rolled a new char and tried playing with new people ?

When was the last time you rolled a new char and tried playing with new people ?

When was the last time you rolled a new char and tried playing with new people ?

I'm actually currently in the process of awoxing some folks with a newbie alt I rolled up.

The environment for new players is poisonous and disgusting.

And the problem is mostly the help channel and the NPC corps, more specifically the people in them.

When was the last time you rolled a new char and tried playing with new people ?

Is it because newbies are awoxing people

You can't expect human behavior to change, that's why our leaders use laws to create situations and conditions under which the same dysfunctional behavior may be stemmed or even turned into something productive and useful.

About half a year ago I think.
But this alt was quite a douchebag, neither me nor the other players found him very likable or trustworthy...

I understand what you are getting at, I just don't believe that people will change easily.
Imagine how wonderful our world would be if people would learn from mistakes, listen to reasonable advice and change their ways for the betterment of everyone.
You can't expect human behavior to change, that's why our leaders use laws to create situations and conditions under which the same dysfunctional behavior may be stemmed or even turned into something productive and useful.

Actually, I hadn't made the decision to awox them until they told me to:

"Make sure you stay away from any lowsec systems, those are just full of griefers"

"make sure you put MLUs on all your low slots"

"always use mining drones"

"only sell ore and loot to the corp, everyone else will scam you"

And other such bullshittery.

Imagine how wonderful our world would be if people would learn from mistakes, listen to reasonable advice and change their ways for the betterment of everyone.

He, too, could be a victim of the griefers of a starting corp ...
... and i agree with you. Totally.

How much can you take ?

That's my point. It's all one massive cycle of people who are bad at the game teaching other people to be even worse at the game.

As a result, the quality of the average highsec player is pretty low unless by some chance he gets fed up and decides to go do something else besides what he's been told to do. And people think nullsec inhabitants are mindless...

Disclaimer, I live in highsec, and enjoy gameplay from all areas and aspects of the game. (****, that might as well be in my sig at this point)

For real. People still continue to gorge on eating fast food at the peril of their own health.

Then they need lifetime treatment for diabetes, and run screaming to the feds for money from programs, which then reaches into the pockets of every American, and still no federal laws to regulate the Fast Food Industry, and the whole situation just starts inflating itself like a perverse balloon.

People won't change their diets even under deadly and expensive conditions.

They certainly aren't going to change their game playstyle at the snap of a finger. Not people in this century at least.

No.

You have no idea.

It's a player-driven issue, solvable by player interaction and not by changing the game.
That won't solve anything at all, because the influence at the human level remains.


When was the last time you rolled a new char and tried playing with new people ?


edit:
The 500k have no relevance whatsoever. Not only aren't all of them ever online at once,
many of them are alts anyway and we are talking about *new players* here.

Something like a STOP BEING POOR campaign would invigorate all alliances

Btw, you seem to have issues with a few things not related to the game.

Aahhhh

I agree with you wholeheartedly.


Would you want to help correct this issue ?

That's because you say it has always been that way, so it's okay anyway.

It always worked, thus could as well be seen as natural and unquestionable.


To sum up your own words from a different perspective:

You are simply missing the point.

The game would be much better if it asked you what you wanted to do at the beginning and when I clicked on PvP/Pirate/Rapist...it automatically joined me with friendly people to give me direction to do it with.

Instead of mining I should probably do missions and "ratting?" Seems like that would benefit me more in the direction of PvP. I guess my focus is on ISK first and than waste it later (might just buy PLEX since I have a good job and 2-4 hours a night available to play). I hope this re-affirms the OP in why this game falls short for new players. Most will point the finger at me, no worries I already have done that and am looking into how to get balls deep.

I just reactivated my account. Have never really gotten past mining and tutorial in this game. Got blown up yesterday trying to travel to a station to clear it of stuff I left there. It pissed me off, set me back and all that good stuff. I play multiplayer games to PvP and have played most.

Strangely I keep coming back to this game...I am still lost as to how the heck I can make enough isk, how to pvp or what I am doing. I do feel what the OP is getting at. For 2 days I have been mining, have about 30 million isk and one tackler slasher with what I could afford to setup...no clue how to use it (1 million SP that is mostly in frigates). Joined RvB (Blue team). Too noobish and uneducated in the game to get out there (afraid of all the flaming that will commence when I do). "working on it"

This game is not new user friendly. Truly doesn't feel that social compared to other games I have played. I like the harshness of it, but combined with its complexity has me at somewhat of a loss. I don't mind losing stuff or dying...I just want someone to kill and friends to do it with. The game would be much better if it asked you what you wanted to do at the beginning and when I clicked on PvP/Pirate/Rapist...it automatically joined me with friendly people to give me direction to do it with. Maybe even gave me some piece of crap ship and told me how to use it (tackler, dps or whatever yall call it). Otherwise I am going to keep on mining and losing ships unaware as to what to do to progress and benefit myself.

Instead of mining I should probably do missions and "ratting?" Seems like that would benefit me more in the direction of PvP. I guess my focus is on ISK first and than waste it later (might just buy PLEX since I have a good job and 2-4 hours a night available to play). I hope this re-affirms the OP in why this game falls short for new players. Most will point the finger at me, no worries I already have done that and am looking into how to get balls deep.

Try facwar, cheap to get into. ... Make money while shooting other people.

LOL

The OP is correct. I have seen this myself over the years.

Still, it's rather hard to get noobs to do anything. They got their noses deep into the tutorials, which is OK I guess, seeing that anybody who asks anything is going to be told "do the tutorial!".

I've considered dropping back into noob NPC corp to see if I can help. Last time I was in NPC corp, two corpies were close to a ragequit for being ganked in Parts. I convinced them to fleet up with me and attack the people who ganked them. We were up against heavy hitters and lost, but they had a good time and didn't ragequit. One even went to a nullsec alliance later on.


It can be tedious. Perhaps it's up to the bittervets to decide that they have enough ISK and promote the game in the manner that the OP suggests?

You just lack a friend. Or friends. The biggest issue for new players seem to be that they lack the proper friends.
I'm sure we can correct this mistake to give you an actual good start into this game.

The OP is correct. I have seen this myself over the years.

Still, it's rather hard to get noobs to do anything. They got their noses deep into the tutorials, which is OK I guess, seeing that anybody who asks anything is going to be told "do the tutorial!".

I've considered dropping back into noob NPC corp to see if I can help. Last time I was in NPC corp, two corpies were close to a ragequit for being ganked in Parts. I convinced them to fleet up with me and attack the people who ganked them. We were up against heavy hitters and lost, but they had a good time and didn't ragequit. One even went to a nullsec alliance later on.


It can be tedious. Perhaps it's up to the bittervets to decide that they have enough ISK and promote the game in the manner that the OP suggests?

Honestly, many facwar corps have programs that offer free t1 fit frigs/destroyers to their newer members. Fleets are always available, so join one and get a share of the plex rewards. Or run plex's solo, they're not exactly hard. And fac war plexing pays out way more than mining.

If your fac war experience was ****, maybe the people you flew with were ****? idk.

FW is far less than cheap to get into; you can do it with a day one alt and a unfit frigate. FW doesn't pay you to shoot at people, and you as much as admit it with what you jsut said. It pays you to avoid being shot at while spinning buttons and blitzing missions. It's by far the most obscene and broken isk-transfer mechanism in the game.

It holds mediocre value for new players by giving them a clear-cut intro to PvP, but it tends overall to fail at that, as well. The majority population of FW is alt-farmers.

The social aspect of this game is what keeps me here, personally. If I hadn't made the jump into PvP and joined a player corp, I would have been gone inside three months. And I'm sure it's what keeps the carebears here, too. Sadly, I have to be in agreement that some of the direction this game is headed is indeed a direct result of the poison that is poured into the new player's ear.

A couple of folks have mentioned the new player experience, and how CCP should do something with it. This game has a completely adequate one; it uses the mission system to teach you the mission system, gives you your first tastes of NPC combat, shows you the possibility of mining and industry, etc. That is all that you can ever ask from a new player experience on behalf of CCP. CCP can't hard code your ability to find friends/fellow players. They cannot patch out all the bad advice and utter bullshit that's passed around by the risk averse.

I'm in total agreement that it's not up to CCP to make sure the game goes the way it's wanted to go; it's up to us to make sure that the new players who remain to be old players understand what is here, who is here, and what they can do with it.

.......none of what you said contradicts anything that I said. There are alt farmers in npc 0.0 and Sov as well. While FW doesn't pay you much to shoot people per se (you actually do get a payout for kills though), you will shoot people and get shot at, and there will be plenty of pvp available at any given time for those who want it.

As for not being a pvp area, earlier this year fac war Black Rise beat out all of the other regions in eve as the most active region in terms of kills. Here's a source for that, 27,271 kills in a single month alone.

So really, you're full of ****.

Aaaahhhh, what a wonderful post !
Thank you ! :D


(please note that throwing money at noobs isn't helping them and i doubt that's what you actually meant)
(by saying "have enough ISK and promote the game")

You just lack a friend. Or friends. The biggest issue for new players seem to be that they lack the proper friends.
I'm sure we can correct this mistake to give you an actual good start into this game.

...

No.

You're taking this as a personal attack, although it wasn't.

She sees this from a different perspective than you do.
Personally, i wouldn't drop a new player into fw either.

Too much farming, too many morons. (sorry, but there are way too many and you know it)


Your advice might be well-meant, but a new player shouldn't be playing something because he needs isk,
the isk should come in naturally by playing. I'm not sure if the difference between these too is obvious.


Will you now insult me too, because i disagree ?

All of my friends (four) quit a month or two in, and, being about four months old now, I'm really at a loss for what to do.

I tried exploration, but couldn't find any ISK in it, even after a month of it.

I'm going to try FW now since I kind of want to get involved in PvP, but barely have enough capital to fit ships I can afford to lose. I just find myself running out of ISK fairly quickly, but can't seem to recover it at any substantial rate to keep my wallet stable.

A new player in a decent corp can make more money in fac war than anywhere else. A fact supported, no less, by all of the so-called "low-sp farming alts". Likewise, the link I provided shows that fac war is indeed a good place to get pvp, as the sheer level of pvp activity is quite high. So they get pvp experience in addition to isk. Win-win.

Will you now insult me too, because i disagree ?

And there we disagree.

He shouldn't easily make ISK at all.

You don't think new players should want to make isk?

Probably. That's the whole lack of social interaction, right before your very eyes. An attitude like that, coupled with 'come do this, it pays lots!' is exactly what causes people to become risk averse, even in lowsec. Loss hurts, and it should hurt. Being poor hurts, and it should hurt. If you're not scraping by at first, then you never learn the value of everything that there is to be earned in EVE Online.

As to his little tirade, he simply doesn't want to admit that faction warfare as it stands is a broken mechanic that on the whole is not good for teaching newbies how to do anything other than farm LP. Going pirate in lowsec is a more useful arena of education than attempting to structure your play around the hilarity that is FW plex farming.

You don't think new players should want to make isk?

I fail to see your actual issue.
I only see that you are describing a symptom,
but not the underlying reason for your lack of ISK
and i doubt it has to do with what the game offers.

Don't you have any friends ingame ?

Probably. That's the whole lack of social interaction, right before your very eyes. An attitude like that, coupled with 'come do this, it pays lots!' is exactly what causes people to become risk averse, even in lowsec. Loss hurts, and it should hurt. Being poor hurts, and it should hurt. If you're not scraping by at first, then you never learn the value of everything that there is to be earned in EVE Online.

As to his little tirade, he simply doesn't want to admit that faction warfare as it stands is a broken mechanic that on the whole is not good for teaching newbies how to do anything other than farm LP. Going pirate in lowsec is a more useful arena of education than attempting to structure your play around the hilarity that is FW plex farming.

LOL

It holds mediocre value for new players by giving them a clear-cut intro to PvP, but it tends overall to fail at that, as well. The majority population of FW is alt-farmers.

No I do not. Been playing pretty much solo for the past few months. I'm looking for a good corp to make some friends in though, currently have a thread in the new player section because I'm looking to get some help, the player community usually does a good job with helping players who ask for help.

I offer specific alternatives, you offer vague platitudes.

In the long run I would hope that some means of getting into more emergent play is provided. Indeed they get into missions because they get tutorials on that.


Perhaps it's time for actual PVP missions? Certainly the mechanics of this I would not know how to implement.

But imagine that in order to get past all of the tutorials one must have "The PVP Mission" done?

And, while it might seem particularly cruel, maybe the game would benefit from a gank mission?

My impression is that the game is wide open for PVP and ganking, but there is no direct promotion of it beyond the "Be the Villain" ad campaign. "Be the Villain" so people sign up and..... here's a tutorial for missions. Here's a tutorial for mining.

Look at it this way and what the OP is writing about becomes clear.

I think if CCP added a PVP mission or even a "gank mission" it would make headlines. And why not? It might even encourage new players to avoid doing the one thing that is almost certain to make them averse to PVP.

(That one thing is to take getting blown up too personally)

Actually, what you offer is a ****-poor attitude, personal insults, and information that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Putting forth the fact that FW space is good for PvP has nothing to do with the fact that joining FW is, at best, only a mediocre gateway to that same PvP. PvP has absolutely nothing to do with the obscene amount of isk that can be made in that space, being as even killing someone's blinged out ship nets you less of a payout than spinning a single Novice plex. The absolute best return for a newbie in FW is to avoid every fight possible, and spin as many plexes as he can. It's the direct antithesis of getting out and learning to play the game and socialize, and ranks right on par with friendless semi-AFK mining and solo mission runners for sending this game down the toilet.

Would you two please argue in your own thread ?

I wouldn't want to ask mods to delete your posts.


Thank you.

Why would you want CCP to interfere in a purely player-driven issue ?

If you disagree with my points, and can't find a response, by all means call the mods and see what they say to your 'request'.

I'd think of it as more like kicking the baby bird out of the nest.

Then it's fly or splat.

Presently it seems like the birds don't get the memo about leaving the nest.

A little surprised the killboard/wardec system hasn't been flamed in this thread yet. Has it? I dosed off a little in q3 of the original post...

But frankly I'm inclined to agree, when I first started I was having crazy fun just getting blown up in hilarious ways. Eventually I got into a corp where the CEO shamed the balls off of people who lost ships, had to be in a gang, had to fit EXACTLY this, NEVER fit these modules. It isn't fun, the odds are astronomically against you, and the longer I play the less I think industrial is a viable playstyle.

What are you looking for ?

Sounds terrible, what corp is this? Name and shame

People gonna do what people wanna do, yo.


Sorry to give such a simplified answer to such a monster post, but Im le tired.

"Make sure you stay away from any lowsec systems, those are just full of griefers"

A little surprised the killboard/wardec system hasn't been flamed in this thread yet. Has it? I dosed off a little in q3 of the original post...

But frankly I'm inclined to agree, when I first started I was having crazy fun just getting blown up in hilarious ways. Eventually I got into a corp where the CEO shamed the balls off of people who lost ships, had to be in a gang, had to fit EXACTLY this, NEVER fit these modules. It isn't fun, the odds are astronomically against you, and the longer I play the less I think industrial is a viable playstyle.

6000 chars of... something...

my 3 years Eve Online history says "hi": started from missions, went through mining, been in WH/0.0 SOV/0.0 NPC/low.....

And i trust to my history more than to your propaganda. Sorry for it

No !

It's the PLAYERS who have responsibility here, not CCP !

When you have an environment of creating a bird then getting kicked out of the next shortly there after, you will find a huge majority of players who will travel the path of least resistance.

Responsibility doesn't even factor in.

Most think that being a villain is about a lack of responsibility. Those are typical thugs.

The stories you read about, you know, the huge news articles about multiple hundreds billion isk scams and awoxs... those are the ones that come from people who realize that responsibility matters.

Not like the silly scammers in trade hubs who spam all day.

Which is what the degenerative masses in this game are quickly filling the void with.

Because CCP wants it so.

Until someone decides otherwise.

That is the true beauty of Eve Online.

If a new player wants to start out mining, I see no problem with that or any direction the game might be headed in.

Because there is a finite number of skills for mining. Plus core skills and drone skills which are usefull for PVP as well.
So what I am saying is just because they start out mining does not make them only a miner. In time they will gravitate to other things especially as mining becomes boring.

The main problem is time. Many players do not stay with eve after the first 3 months. And cross training a toon for ganking makes that toon not viable for mining anymore because of sec standings. To go back and forth between ganking and mining with the same toon is not very workable.

The solution is to find a way around this for the new player which does not require investment in another account and one that does not interfere with the training time of the main toon on the account either.

Maybe if CCP can promote dual training an alt on the same account but for only a month or so for a new player.
Enough time to get the alt skilled up enough to do a gank. Then the dual training ends. He can continue to mine with his main and run around and gank with his alt when he gets bored. It might keep him/her in the game and he/she might even eventually decide to open a sidekick account and move the alt toon over to the sidekick account to continue to advance in the gank trade on his/her alt.

That might work to CCP's advantage in getting more players to stay with eve longer and get more players to run multiple accounts as well. It would just cost CCP a free month of dual training time on a single acount.

I am thinking outside of the box with this. Most players do not want to be told how to play the game but they do want tips how to improve their game play. I think this could be a win/win for players and CCP alike.

Furthermore, you are jumping to conclusions with your assumption that new players don't
want to be told what to do. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, though.

I agree that *nobody* wants to be told what to do,
but this isn't the case in every single possible situation. :p

If you would roll a noobchar and talk to new players, you'll find lots of people who would be more than
happy to know what else they could do than mining or running missions ...

... but they have no idea.


Bringing this information towards them is an actual issue
and would demand a whole new thread all for itself ...

Only a coward makes such a post with an NPC alt!....... ... .. .

CCP need to make it so only a few systems are PvP enabled and the rest is PvP free zone that would make the game sooooo much better.

Here's my 2ct on a few topics raised in this thread:

On carebears:
Many posts here mention GÇ£carebearsGÇ¥ and usually do so in a negative connotation. It's a term typically meant derogatory and applied by the PvP crowd to those players who prefer PvE, cooperative gameplay and consensual PvP (if they want to PvP at all). One player in this thread posted that he believed (to be exact: used to believe) that wardeccing GÇ£carebearGÇ¥ corps and trying to eliminate them as quickly as possible was a good idea. I didn't quote him here because I believe many people in this game share that opinion. But in effect this means that you want the GÇ£carebearGÇ¥ crowd to change their ways of playing this game and play it the..............................................

Only a coward makes such a post with an NPC alt!....... ... .. .

Myriad ... thank you for the story of your life. :)

For years I've been in help channel, on different characters, trying to make sure newbies actually get proper advice and facts and much more than anything else it's about showing them they have options other than the obvious pve/grind/terribleness while disproving other's mistaken "advice". Trying to "wake them up" about how most players in this game are bad and how they can avoid becoming like them and how they CAN compete if only they put in the effort to learn. Most just nod, shrug and keep on grinding, only a select few actually benefit from it. Over the years I've had youtube channels with tutorials, ran corps to learn newbies about pvp and "eve proper" but you just can't stop it.

To me the OP is wrong. EVE won't become "X5, the solo grind" because we can't turn around the onslaught of grindbears but because CCP, for years now, has been changing the game to facilitate that kind of mentality, simply because that increases the potential customer pool. Look at all the changes since 2008/2009, it's all there to make stuff easier, more simple and safer. CCP themselves won't state this outright of course as that would alienate their (still) core customers but it's a process that started a few years ago and helped by a painfully obvious lack of game knowledge by many of the DEVs.

Can't stop it but you might slow it down. Me personally I have given up and only play EVE on back burner these days, still in help channel of course but not going out of my way anymore to nurture the "spirit of EVE".

Not read all the posts on here but have read some. There is a clear problem with keeping new players in EVE - even if the people have friends in the game. There are rules put in place by CCP to stop certain aspects going too far (such as harassing people in order to make them quit the game), but whether CCP act on these rules or not is another matter.... still see a lot of people doing it in game with no action taken against them.

Everyone learns from war aspects of the game, there are some decent corps out there willing to teach new players but there are also some real douche bags out there who think they are in charge of the game and get away with LOADS of rule breaking without CCP even batting an eye lid.

Not saying that it's the only thing or that it's a big scale thing. I have noticed it a lot over the past few months of playing, there are a handful of complete douche bags who think they can control how new players play because they have more SP / knowledge and if new player views differ to theirs they constantly harass those players in game instead of helping them = loads of new players turned away from the game from the start. I would think it would be more in CCP's interest to look at things like this.

Also the whole PvE thing, ye a lot of new players do PvE to make ISK as they can make a hell of a lot from it; people should be free to pick what they want to do in game from the start / train for however long they think it takes to get into other aspects of the game. Biggest problem with EVE is you have to focus on one thing at the start.. skill building for PvE / Mining / PvP is completely different. You get people saying they want PvP but only ever target non-pvpers then moan on the forum that they didn't get any action, as soon as they get action from proper PvP corps they moan too.

It's funny actually because those that moan about PvE corps not fighting them during wars are always the same people that flame other proper corps that war them; how is it any different to what they are actually doing?

Everyone learns from war aspects of the game, there are some decent corps out there willing to teach new players but there are also some real douche bags out there who think they are in charge of the game and get away with LOADS of rule breaking without CCP even batting an eye lid.

Personally I think that specific aspects of the game need to be focused on what you want to do. Yes you can train a lot of stuff straight off to level 3 pretty quickly - but main things for aspects like PvP are only viable through skill trees: like defense, there is more than 1 way to go for defense based on ships etc.. which it takes time to open those skills through the skill trees.

Someone who is wanting to do mining isn't necessarily going to train defense / weapons as they will focus on mining aspects.. which imo is the reason why people have alts. Another example being alt scanners for pvp players. People chose what they want to do and focus on what things will get them to their maximum ability of doing those things.

The only viable way of being able to do everything in eve or eve multiple things in eve is to buy a character that has the relevant SP. When I started I knew what I was going to focus because I played for 21 days just exploring all the in game options.

Well, if you want the two cents of a noob... Here it comes;

I started playing a month ago after trying Dust. Liked CCPs ideas but didn't like their delivery indust so I decided to give Eve a shot.

That being said Eve was an easier transition for me than most. The skill gap is still very daunting to me and yes I have read and understand that a new can go fly a frigate and tackle right away.

Why I didn't take that route;

I didn't want pushed into being a specialized tackler by a vet over more important more broad skill trains.

We are broke and need money, tackling for a small unexperienced group doesn't sound like a windfall of isk

We are broke and can't affourd to lose our ships and or get scammed.

So, I have decided to carebear until I am satified with my skill tree, and have enough isk that I will be capable and comfortable with losing a ship.

The solution is yours to craft

Therefore, and against the howls of those who confuse "sandbox" with "litterbox", I think minimizing the amount of interaction that new players have to deal with other players should be taken into consideration.

That's perfectly fine logic,
if you ignore that you could easily gank a hauler or two (you said "we" so i assume you're a group)
and make much more money in much less time, while having fun too.

I know, i keep coming up with this example ... mostly because it's a valid one. ^_^

I wonder if people deliberately ignore this,
get false information about it, (people telling you it's not worth it)
or you simply did not have the idea.

And you're not even restricted to haulers...


Which one is it, if i may ask ?

I feel like going to low sec or null sec waiting to kill "haulers" would, for me lead to a few undesired results.

First one would be me a new player waiting for something possibly not comming during my log on time.
With waiting comes a slope in the isk per hour, which i have very little of.

Second would be to get ganked anyway, nevermind how bountyless or fruitless kiling me would be.

And when I say we, I mean me and my one friend that started this adventure together. And have have poked aroumd for pvp corps but seems most are looking for 10 mil sp toons or are just not that serious. So my time spent right away in high sec is to build up sp and after some time will atleast have the sp to be taken seriously by a decent pvp corp. Whether this goal holds or I just stay in Highsec is a question you will have to ask me in 3 to 6 months.

This is just my take on the game. I am having decent fun in highsec for now, with a goal to have the skills and be scooped up by a pvp corp willing to guide me in the right direction.

Hope this answered your question.

You have no clue.

Not only did i never mention lowsec, it's impossible for the target "not to come",
because i never said you'd be sitting around, waiting for something like most people do.
Which is sad, but their issue.

It only needs two for a successfull ganking roam. one takes a properly fitted thrasher or rupture/vexor
and the other sits in a magnate fitted for 1600m-¦ cargospace, ship- and cargoscanning.
then you go on a roam, scanning everything that might be interesting.

You'll learn more by doing this in an hour than you will learn doing missions for a week.
You have to figure out everything on your own and it's seriously satisfying to succeed in it.


Hell .. why are so many of you so horrendously uncreative and boring ...
... and at the same time ignorant, too. (this might not actually adress you personally)


Edit: Try, before you dismiss it ...

You are correct, I am completely ignorant. That being said one of the funnest things with playing this game is learning it. That being said I do alot of research on line and I find more stories of people creating tears of unsuspecting pilots than I see of The Diary of an average Joe Pilot. I am carefull when flying my ship around and I keep an eye on the sec status of everywhere I fly. You do bring up some good point and perhaps I am missing out on a great part of the game.

Do you have some advice for me?

I am specing into caldari rails/blasters cormorant, ferox, or rokh ( which I don't want to fly quite yet with) for ganking haulers?


Sorry for the over use of " That being said" .. but i am to lazy to edit on my phone.

You believe isolating them even more from the others helps them in any way.

Your post starts with something pointing out exactly one of the issues the game has.
People play this game in roles. CCP acknowledged that fact by removing tiers and giving each
ship a role.

People have ganking alts, exploration alts, trading alts, industrial alts, scamming alts,
they even have neutral alts ...

They pretty much fragment their in-game personality to a level that they don't have their own anymore.

As opposed to people like me who do not play with alts,
because it ruins certain aspects of the experience.

It's a playstyle so common, it's seen as natural in EvE
and many will that it's a necessity to play that way,
which is completely ridiculous to assume.

I forgot my point.
I need sleep. ^_^

...The lesson learned for new players is, that either you play the way some vet players try to force upon you...

The biggest "newbie issues" this game has come from the fact that people poorly adapted to its world are clustered around the areas new players begin in. You don't really see a nomadic nullsec pvp group in hisec. You don't really see lowsec pirates in hisec...

Now ... you may know me, or you may not, that's pretty much not relevant,
but i want to add that in my years playing EvE, i have learned *a lot* about how peoples minds work.

The biggest "newbie issues" this game has come from the fact that people poorly adapted to its world are clustered around the areas new players begin in. You don't really see a nomadic nullsec pvp group in hisec. You don't really see lowsec pirates in hisec.

You might win the game. :)

You are correct, I am completely ignorant.
Do you have some advice for me?

The biggest "newbie issues" this game has come from the fact that people poorly adapted to its world are clustered around the areas new players begin in. You don't really see a nomadic nullsec pvp group in hisec. You don't really see lowsec pirates in hisec. Most people surrounding the starting areas are carebears that will tell you "don't think about getting into pvp without at least a year worth of training under your belt. Till then run missions and stuff. And watch for gankers/loot ninjas, they're the scum of the universe."

Adorable newbies are exposed to carebearism before they can experience the game. They're taught it's always a mindless grind of pve/mining/whatever in chase of an invisible carrot while avoiding the dreaded bad guys (gankers/hisec 'deccers.)

Anyways, NOWHERE along this journey so far has anybody told me "HEY NEWBIE! You need to mine and research and be safe and never ever go to a system below 0.5! One does not simply venture into Null!"

Have you tried asking the appropriately named "Rookie Help" channel that the game has open for you on the start. Just ask "hey, what is lowsec all about".

I'm sure they'll enlighten you.

Odd, I use to see them all the time... mostly feeding off the newbies.

...
I have learned how information spreads and how to exploit specific human characteristica to my advantage,
in regards to how information spreads and how this information gets altered on it's way,
even by the first messenger.

I have learned that pushing specific buttons in people leads to specific, consequential behaviour,
by chance, but definitely when the specific button triggers an emotional (bodily) response.

...