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Azeroth Uluntil
e X i l e The Initiative.
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 04:21:00 -
[31] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:Survive is probably the wrong word, as they would obviously survive. But everything would be completely different, and nullsec would have to change alot to accomidate. Highsec is the economic and industrial heart of EvE. Even though alot of nullsec players have nothing but distain for the players that have chosen to live there, they cannot deny how important it is for them, and how much they rely upon Empire to sell and buy their goods.
Only reason we would have issues in null-sec is the lack of bpos on the market. Otherwise, it would be business as normal for us. It would take some time to adjust, but we can literally live without empire if needed. Invention actually made that possible, so long as we have some bpos or bpos on the market in npc stations in 0.0. Or even purchasable from mission agents.
We don't need you. You need us. |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4659
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 04:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Darkwolf wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:You can't jump into highsec only out of it
if you gatecamp both the gates on the null sec entrance system. We might not be able to see a covert jump field but if we put up warp jammers all around the gate to pull you out of warp and then blow you apart before you've got to the gate.
If its a big enough camp we should have the dps. Uh huh. There are 229 lowsec systems which have a highsec gate. Haven't bothered checking how many stations are in those systems. Jump Freighters typically cyno into a LS station, dock up there and then re-enter highsec by warping to the gate. You can't bubble in lowsec. Once that JF gets into warp to the highsec gate, it's basically unstoppable. That's an awful, awful lot of station undock camping that would be required. Yep. Probably the best way highsec could embargo null without a fleet of tens of thousands, would be to have a bunch of people suicide ganking freighters in Jita for a few days. That would have a serious effect on the supply of goods to null. I think if the OP organized something like that, null would stand up and take notice. So... a burn jita
There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1265
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 04:52:00 -
[33] - Quote
The Spod wrote:There are player and NPC stations in nullsec. Nullsec is independent of highsec, and highsec is independent of nullsec.
Um..not even close. If null sec disappeared, T2 production would be shred of what it is today. given the percentage of R32 and R62 moons in low sec, compared to null sec.
If high sec was wiped out (which happens more with every release), null sec would maintain their massive income, but the players would be bored out of their minds, as there would be no one left to grief, because many null sec players will shoot back, or rather, have game mechanics that allows them to shoot back. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4659
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 05:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The Spod wrote:There are player and NPC stations in nullsec. Nullsec is independent of highsec, and highsec is independent of nullsec. Um..not even close. If null sec disappeared, T2 production would be shred of what it is today. given the percentage of R32 and R62 moons in low sec, compared to null sec. If high sec was wiped out (which happens more with every release), null sec would maintain their massive income, but the players would be bored out of their minds, as there would be no one left to grief, because many null sec players will shoot back, or rather, have game mechanics that allows them to shoot back. progodlegend would continue to fight until gsf was destroyed or n3 was There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |

Mr Pragmatic
664
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 06:14:00 -
[35] - Quote
I support leaving the peons out of hi sec. Hi sec is a privilege that nullturds crap all over. Super cali hella yolo swaga dopeness. -á-Yoloswaggins, in the fellowship of the bling. |

Mythrandier
Spacelane Salvage
51
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 07:26:00 -
[36] - Quote
Karak Terrel wrote:Mara Pahrdi wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:Terrible thread. I agree. He's stopped crying, which is a progress. But his threads are still... interesting. Oh right, was that the t2 guns guy? That would explain a lot.
Was the OP not also the guy who claimed that rockets were the worst weapon system in the game?
"It is better to light a flame thrower than curse the darkness." --á T. Pratchett. |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11907
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 10:05:00 -
[37] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:theoretically could null sec players survive if access to low/high sec were severed?
No. For one thing, BPOs are only created in empire. Likewise skillbooks and also datacores, required for T2 production. New players all start in empire, so no new recruits could join 0.0
This is leaving aside the incredible level of effective subsidies productive professions get in Empire compared to 0.0
1 Kings 12:11
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Liafcipe9000
Frankenmouse Inc Frankenmouse
10709
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 10:21:00 -
[38] - Quote
oh look, another "nerf hisec" thread. now with an integrated "nerf nullsec" thread. You may gain the knowledge, but you will lose your belief, with all its mystery and comfort. If there was proof, absolute and certain, there is an afterlife, why not quit this life, and be done with it? Ponder about these things all your life, and you're a philosopher. Compress these ponderings into a couple of pages, and you'll go mad. |

OldWolf69
IR0N. SpaceMonkey's Alliance
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:01:00 -
[39] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:theoretically could null sec players survive if access to low/high sec were severed?
I suspect that they could survive at least either through POS production (assuming that blueprints are around) and fleet mining and internal trading. But the massive profits enjoyed by null sec corps would be gone along with the large scale wars that these empires funded. In fact pretty much all conflict would die of in null sec as the resource cost of ships have massively increased, especially tech 2 items due to the research requirements since those blueprints you need for tech 2 versions are now irreplaceable.
Meanwhile in high sec there are swings and roundabounts. At first the market would crash a bit as the flow of null resources stop and prices of ships rise. But on the other hand the demand for ships to fight the null sec wars decline so after a while the market would return to some form of stability. The main place where this isn't true however would be in mercoxit which would completely cripple tech 2 high sec production.
So in other words on both areas of space the tech 2 industry is crippled.
Edit: And before anyone says all mercoxit comes from sleeper. Shh. We're talking economic systems here.
Also what kind of fleet would you need to completely blockade all entrances to null sec perfectly 24/7? M8, are you Harry Forever?  |

Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
305
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Easy answer is yes.
Nullsec = SOV and NPC null. Anything like CONCORD office to turn in overlord drops, BPO's, etc. Those could easily be added to a given station in NPC null to make it 100% isolated. |

Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
1600
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote: Yep. Probably the best way highsec could embargo null without a fleet of tens of thousands, would be to have a bunch of people suicide ganking freighters in Jita for a few days. That would have a serious effect on the supply of goods to null. I think if the OP organized something like that, null would stand up and take notice.carebears would whine to CCP about it being unfair
Fixed that for you ...
hell, even with the login ads of "don't go to Jita this weekend" were ignored. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |

Maxim Hibra
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 11:30:00 -
[42] - Quote
Assuming you magically cut off all connection between Empire and Null (since Null and Highsec would leave the question of Lowsec, I chose to group HS and LS together as Empire space):
Empire would lose all tech2 stuff, since you need Nullsec material for them. Supply of material would be reduced (no more stuff being brought in from Null to be sold at Jita), but so would demand (no more Nullsec people buying supllies to jump freighter to null). Empire would survive, but you wouldn't see anybody flying tech 2 stuff anymore, and the economy would be much worse off.
Nullsec doesn't in theory lose anything, as they have all the same resources as Empire, plus tech2 materials. However, in practice Null is a lot more reliant on Empire than might appear. For starters, nobody does large scale industry in null. There are far less stations, and BP research slots in particular are in short supply. POSs can be used to replace stations, but are far more inefficient. Nullsec could still produce any ship in game (except Empire faction ships, the BPCs of which are only availeable in Empire), but due to limited amount of stations and less players than in Empire (not to mention many, if not most, of those players disdain the very idea of mining and industry) the supply would be smaller. This would have a lot bigger effect than people might think. Producing a large fleet worth of ships takes a very long time. As long as there is HS access this won't be a problem as the large amounts of ships being produced in HS means there is a constant supply. Cut that supply off and suddenly you can't lose a couple of hundred battleships on a weekly basis, at least not until you've built a sufficiently big industrial base to churn out a couple of hundred battleships every week. This might actually increase Supercapital-based warfare as Supers, while time-consuming to build, are also extremely difficult to destroy so you don't need to worry about replacing them that often. I'm not very well-informed on the specific of supercapital warfare, tho, so I might be wrong on that. Also since certain materials are unevenly distributed around Nullsec, with no Jita-like trade hub, getting those materials would be a lot harder. Smaller coalitions would be unable to produce many materials themselves, and would eighter have to trade with others or get by with things they can domestically produce. Even larger coalitions might have problems. Then there's the fact that skillbooks and BPs are of extremely limited supply in Null.
TL;DR: Null would survive, but massive fleet battles would become rarer due to smaller supply of ships, coalitions would have to use most of their moongoo and other materials to run their industry instead of padding their leaders wallets, and some trade between different Nullsec powers would likely have to be established. |

Maaaaowm Ogeko
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
31
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 12:22:00 -
[43] - Quote
The nurturing parental impulse in me wants to take Paul O. aside (because he is, of course, a highly intelligent but socially backward 12-year-old, I am convinced of it) and coach him of how to word thread starters to get a decent response. Although he won't listen because he's the kind of kid who has to be kicked in the teeth by Life in order to learn.
The PvP'r in me wants to be one of the agents of Life.
I am so conflicted. Closing forums now, thanks. |

Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
41
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 12:24:00 -
[44] - Quote
Maxim Hibra wrote:Assuming you magically cut off all connection between Empire and Null (since Null and Highsec would leave the question of Lowsec, I chose to group HS and LS together as Empire space):
Empire would lose all tech2 stuff, since you need Nullsec material for them. Supply of material would be reduced (no more stuff being brought in from Null to be sold at Jita), but so would demand (no more Nullsec people buying supllies to jump freighter to null). Empire would survive, but you wouldn't see anybody flying tech 2 stuff anymore, and the economy would be much worse off.
Nullsec doesn't in theory lose anything, as they have all the same resources as Empire, plus tech2 materials. However, in practice Null is a lot more reliant on Empire than might appear. For starters, nobody does large scale industry in null. There are far less stations, and BP research slots in particular are in short supply. POSs can be used to replace stations, but are far more inefficient. Nullsec could still produce any ship in game (except Empire faction ships, the BPCs of which are only availeable in Empire), but due to limited amount of stations and less players than in Empire (not to mention many, if not most, of those players disdain the very idea of mining and industry) the supply would be smaller. This would have a lot bigger effect than people might think. Producing a large fleet worth of ships takes a very long time. As long as there is HS access this won't be a problem as the large amounts of ships being produced in HS means there is a constant supply. Cut that supply off and suddenly you can't lose a couple of hundred battleships on a weekly basis, at least not until you've built a sufficiently big industrial base to churn out a couple of hundred battleships every week. This might actually increase Supercapital-based warfare as Supers, while time-consuming to build, are also extremely difficult to destroy so you don't need to worry about replacing them that often. I'm not very well-informed on the specific of supercapital warfare, tho, so I might be wrong on that. Also since certain materials are unevenly distributed around Nullsec, with no Jita-like trade hub, getting those materials would be a lot harder. Smaller coalitions would be unable to produce many materials themselves, and would eighter have to trade with others or get by with things they can domestically produce. Even larger coalitions might have problems. Then there's the fact that skillbooks and BPs are of extremely limited supply in Null.
TL;DR: Null would survive, but massive fleet battles would become rarer due to smaller supply of ships, coalitions would have to use most of their moongoo and other materials to run their industry instead of padding their leaders wallets, and some trade between different Nullsec powers would likely have to be established.
So you mean that that players would have to actually build an economy instead of acting like warlords over a despoiled land? That's a great idea. |

Mra Rednu
Black Watch Guard
338
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 12:26:00 -
[45] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Easy answer is yes.
Nullsec = SOV and NPC null. Anything like CONCORD office to turn in overlord drops, BPO's, etc. Those could easily be added to a given station in NPC null to make it 100% isolated.
So thats a no then. |

Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
869
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 12:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
In theory yes. It would entail a change in the nul-bloc mindset however. Industrial corps would have to go from being scorned and ridiculed to coveted and cherished.
The reverse is not true, highsec industry needs materials that cannot be sourced within highsec.
Would it be good for the game? .. no, it would be disastrous. |

KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
821
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 12:56:00 -
[47] - Quote
Provi tourism would be down the drain. BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty. |

Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
41
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 13:06:00 -
[48] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote: Would it be good for the game? .. no, it would be disastrous.
in some ways yes, some ways no.
While it would be disastrous to the existing economy and to the player base. It would mean that the null sec empires would actually start running themselves like real empires. Setting up an economy both internally and externally and developing a stable interstellar community. In other words building a real fictional empire/civilisation, instead of the existing resource extraction back to high sec bare bones economy you have now.
But I will admit while this idea sounds interesting to look at an observe, I doubt the people who will have to build and mine rather than shoot stuff will find it fun. |

Johnny Marzetti
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
431
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 13:21:00 -
[49] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Kitty Bear wrote: Would it be good for the game? .. no, it would be disastrous.
in some ways yes, some ways no. While it would be disastrous to the existing economy and to the player base. It would mean that the null sec empires would actually start running themselves like real empires. Setting up an economy both internally and externally and developing a stable interstellar community. In other words building a real fictional empire/civilisation, instead of the existing resource extraction back to high sec bare bones economy you have now. But I will admit while this idea sounds interesting to look at an observe, I doubt the people who will have to build and mine rather than shoot stuff will find it fun.
Tell me more about how null empires are run. :allears: |

Silvetica Dian
Manson Family
112
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 13:43:00 -
[50] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote: Also what kind of fleet would you need to completely blockade all entrances to null sec perfectly 24/7?
You don't even know what a jump freighter is. Go home. You can't jump into highsec only out of it if you gatecamp both the gates on the null sec entrance system. We might not be able to see a covert jump field but if we put up warp jammers all around the gate to pull you out of warp and then blow you apart before you've got to the gate. If its a big enough camp we should have the dps.
i think you might be talking about warp bubbles but they can't be used in low sec. jump freighters jump to a low sec station undock. then they warp to the high sec gate with 100% immunity from ganking with any sized fleet. If u want to kill them u have to bump them away from a station undock, catch them in an unusual place or at a jump bridge or the most popular option...... kill them in high sec either via war dec or suicide ganking. I suspect you have spent very little time in low or null Mr OP. |

Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
41
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 13:46:00 -
[51] - Quote
Johnny Marzetti wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:Kitty Bear wrote: Would it be good for the game? .. no, it would be disastrous.
in some ways yes, some ways no. While it would be disastrous to the existing economy and to the player base. It would mean that the null sec empires would actually start running themselves like real empires. Setting up an economy both internally and externally and developing a stable interstellar community. In other words building a real fictional empire/civilisation, instead of the existing resource extraction back to high sec bare bones economy you have now. But I will admit while this idea sounds interesting to look at an observe, I doubt the people who will have to build and mine rather than shoot stuff will find it fun. Tell me more about how null empires are run. :allears:
From my readings on stuff on the forums, ok.
Null sec empires primary operate on setting up PI and moon mining to supply tech 2 and capital construction, a lot of which is moved off to high sec (jita) to get increase buyers and to get resources that you can't get in your section of space. While certainly manufacturing goes on in null, its often undermined by haulers dragging cheaper stuff from the high sec stations out there and selling them at a mark up. The result of this is that for the most part null sec isn't actually that active with industrial ships.
Most of the conflict in null seems to be a mix of personal vanity, combined with desire to secure said moons for money. A bit of conflict seems to come from new alliances seeking to move into null sec.
You may now call me a carebear with my head stuck in an economics textbook. |

Paul Otichoda
Electric Sun Associates
41
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 13:50:00 -
[52] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:Johnny Marzetti wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote: Also what kind of fleet would you need to completely blockade all entrances to null sec perfectly 24/7?
You don't even know what a jump freighter is. Go home. You can't jump into highsec only out of it if you gatecamp both the gates on the null sec entrance system. We might not be able to see a covert jump field but if we put up warp jammers all around the gate to pull you out of warp and then blow you apart before you've got to the gate. If its a big enough camp we should have the dps. i think you might be talking about warp bubbles but they can't be used in low sec. jump freighters jump to a low sec station undock. then they warp to the high sec gate with 100% immunity from ganking with any sized fleet. If u want to kill them u have to bump them away from a station undock, catch them in an unusual place or at a jump bridge or the most popular option...... kill them in high sec either via war dec or suicide ganking. I suspect you have spent very little time in low or null Mr OP.
fine yes I have no experience at jump drives so its all completely for nothing, odd no one has mentioned blockade runners yet? |

Maaaaowm Ogeko
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 15:49:00 -
[53] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:
fine yes I have no experience at jump drives so its all completely for nothing, odd no one has mentioned blockade runners yet?
They are really fun to gank.
|

bartos100
Living Ghost
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:05:00 -
[54] - Quote
i would love to see something like this but i would limit it to the following
all low-0.0 gates gone JF gone
but keep the WH's to keep some connection going so BP's and players can move easily and with some effort freighters can be moved across as well
this would force 0.0 to either set up their own industry or spend a lot of time looking for WH connections to move freighters :)
yes it would completely change 0.0 warfare
instead of alarm-clock CTA's and massive numbers being the deciding factor the supply-lines would be the most important cause whoever can keep their supply's up the longest will end up winning with the other side running out of stuff to fight with :) |

Anomaly One
State War Academy Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 16:10:00 -
[55] - Quote
For null sec the only problem they would face it would be all out war all the time since resources will become much more important so basically a FFA, it would be interesting if all of eve turned into null sec (highsec and lowsec regions changed to null)
Highsec could still survive as well if there was access to lowsec but t2 would skyrocket I imagine, but it would get really boring really fast if no low sec access.. the question is already answered since the beginning of the game since everyone started out in highsec then began going to low/nullsec so yes both could survive, but what if new players started out in null/low sec ? How much would those regions survive then that would be up to the alliances if they decide who's gonna recruit the most new players or shoot them.
|

Murk Paradox
Duty. The Cursed Few
538
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:16:00 -
[56] - Quote
Why would you want to separate the low class (null) from the highclass (high)?
*This is not a slight or opinion of quality of areas, but seriously, who in null flies 60 bil isk worth ratting ships that are not even capital sized? This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate. |
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