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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.03 18:29:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Ulstan on 03/09/2003 18:30:34
Looks like everyone was completely justified in asking for more proof of Tornsoul's accusations:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=29759
But Tornsoul and Sir Molle are so *cute* in their earnest protestations that they have mounds of proof, just this is all they'll provide us with.
It's too bad they made fools of themselves insisting everyone who claimed TTi did not pay m0o/sin was lying. :(
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Riddari
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Posted - 2003.09.03 18:30:00 -
[62]
Cyberdyne systems confirmed this Ulstan... TTI offered ISK for EVOL/XAN/FA corpses.
¼©¼
a history |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.03 18:32:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Ulstan on 03/09/2003 18:36:04
Think you're going to need a timeframe here Riddari.
I am sure by now, TTi has offered isk for the corpses of just about everyone in FA and VA.
So saying that TTi "has offered" really doesn't tell us much.
What we are trying to show if, at the time Tornsoul made these allegations, what she said was true.
And according to Sin/m0o/TTi/everyone who would actually know - they were not.
In particular, this sentence of Stavros pretty much eliminates all doubt.
"m0o/sinister/Russ corp have never received any cash to attack fountain, nor have we been approached to do so."
Now was it an understandable mistake? That people already hating TTI would sieze upon any opportunity to further blame them? Sure! I'm sure Tornsoul and the others convinced themselves that TTi actaully was paying pirates.
Of course, they were wrong, and thus look like idiots for slandering people of doubting their words or asking for more proof.
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TornSoul
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Posted - 2003.09.03 23:39:00 -
[64]
Edited by: TornSoul on 03/09/2003 23:39:58
@Ulstan
 Quote:
.. thus look like idiots for slandering people of doubting their words or asking for more proof.
Show me just one post where I've done this.
I firmly believe that people are entitled to believe whatever they want.
If they don't agree with my points, or believe what I'm writting, I'm just fine with that.
That of course doesnt stop me from putting my views forward, or tearing apart their arguments.
But slandering people for not believing me - never.
But you just did, by saying the above.
BIG Lottery
[u |
TornSoul
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Posted - 2003.09.03 23:40:00 -
[65]
Edited by: TornSoul on 04/09/2003 00:01:46
On another note
A little timeline for *you* (and everyone else):
-- The timeline might even surprice some FA members, as I had been sitting on the Intel quite a bit before I revealed it on the FA forum. The reason for this was in order to get even more sources cooporating the story, as I wanted to be 100% sure the Intel was solid, as I knew the consequences(sp) could be dire indeed.
12 of august
- This is when I first got wind about something 'abnormal' happening
Quote:
RUS corp instructs one of their pilots to cease attacks on tti.
"Stand down on attacks on TTI. Fire if fired upon but no more.
I know its been good for ore loot but were getting a deal with them.
The above has never been published anywhere before
This was 'disturbing' news, and I gave orders to speed up and increase the Intel gathering.
13th of august
-- The news from the day before turned out to be far more disturbing than first envisioned.
Remember that BIG was/is part of FA.
I got the following summery
Quote:
Independent sources now stateing that Moo, Sinister and Rus receive paymentfrom tti for FA ships (and others from some "list")proven destroyed. Payment amount is open to wide speculation but seems to be equated with the mineral cost of the ships destroyed.
Sources are various and reliable, mostly internal inside the corps. The conversations are not of the "we have this deal with tti" variety, but more like "i'm not in the mood to mine. let's just go take ss of FA'gs blwoing up and collect from TTI"
This was simply too unbelievable.
I couldnt believe TTI would even consider such a thing. As anyone sane would have to know it would blow up in their face sooner or later.
Now the real work started.
Over the next many days the Intel got cooporated over and over.
16th of august
-- The now (in)famous chatlog I previously posted took place.
For completness sake let me post it again
Quote:
YYY > why we wasting time whn we can be earning TTI bounties ?
XXX > TTI bounties???
YYY > call moo and sinister
YYY > ss fa kills
YYY > get paid, higher pay for evo or xan guys
17th of august
-- I was finally convinced their could be no mistake, this was really happening.
And it was serious!
If too many corps saw this as an opportunity to make some 'easy' money, the newly established FA would be overrun with the scum of EVE and crumble.
I was not about to let that happen - so I posted the excact same summery (typos and all) I myself had gotten 4 days earlier on the FA forums - other FA members can confirm this (CEO's or representatives only)
Initially the response was the same as the one we have witnessed here on the forums.
Disbelief.
The FA corps simply had a hard time believing it was true....
But the corps started to arm themself.....
And then:
23th of august
--- Molle makes his wardecleration: The verdict has fallen.
And the rest is, as they say, history.
----------------
You can believe my accounts or not, I dont really care, in the end the outcome is what mattes.
FA averted a threat to the new founded alliance by going into the offensive.
And before you start screaming "Show me some evidence", let me assure you, I really cant be bothered anymore.
As my last attempt (and others before me) shows, any 'digital' evidence will always, by someone, be claimed to have been faked some way or the other.
And its true - it easily can be faked.
So you either believe the one providing the evidence or you dont. Simple as that really.
There never can be 'proof' in this digital world of ours.
So please - Feel free to state your opinion that I've made the whole thing up, that I got my facts wrong, that it's all 'spin-doctered', but at least be civil about it.
BIG Lottery
[u |
Stavros
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Posted - 2003.09.04 01:34:00 -
[66]
flippin heck tornsoul who do you think you are? frickin james bond lol ¼_¼
the namesh soul, tornshoul!!
err yeah back to the point...
you guys take yourselves far too seriously, nobody paid us to do anything.
I just find this whole shebang hilarious tbh, people are still churning out this crap even after I deny it.
So anyway here we go one last time for the mad *****.
WE SMUSHED FOUNTAIN FOR FREE - GRATIS - NADA
There we go that should clear it up, although maybe I need to get some billboards somewhere.
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.09.04 02:02:00 -
[67]
FLiPp1n H3ck t0rN5OUl WHo d0 j00 tHiNK J00 Ar3? PHr1CK1N J@mE$ 80ND loL ¼_¼
THe nam3$h 50ul, +OrN$h0ul!!
3rr YE4H B4ck +0 THE po1nT...
Y0U 9UY5 TAK3 your$ElV35 pH@R t0O 53R1ou5lY, NOBODy P4iD U$ T0 d0 ANy+H1Ng.
I JUSt f1nD TH1$ WHOL3 $h3B@N9 Hil4riOU5 T8h, p30Ple ARe S+ilL CHuRNiN9 0uT thi$ Cr@P 3v3n @Pht3R i DeNY 1t.
50 ANyw@Y h3RE W3 G0 0n3 l45+ tImE P*** T3H m@D cr@cK.
We $MU$hED PhOuN+aIN f0R PHr3E - 9r4+I5 - n@dA
+H3RE W3 gO tH@T $H0ulD ClE4R i+ Up, @L+H0uGH MAY83 1 nE3d T0 GE+ 5oME 81LL80@rD5 50M3WHer3.
That is much better  .
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 02:15:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Ulstan on 04/09/2003 02:22:22
LoL Wretch :D
Tornsoul: I am referring to bits like this
"It's strange how you question anything I bring forward, but I've yet to see you question TTI.
Double standards dont you think?"
Where you imply that people disagreeing with you have double standards. Elsewhere those who disagree with the claims set forth are accused of being TTI alts.
You (this is a plural you) seemed to imply there was no reasonable way anyone could doubt the veracity of the statements. That is a little ironic considering the way things turned out.
Still, I'm sure you acted in good faith. After all, you heard the pirates talking about being paid. It just turns out that they were making it up, and weren't being paid by TTI to kill Fountain after all.
The whole question of who or what to believe is an interesting one :)
Generally though, I am inclined to ignore reports stemming from unnamed 'reliable sources'.
Anonymity and accountability don't tend to go well together.
It's just interesting when one alliance attacks another, basing their entire campaign on reasons that turn out later to have been untrue.
This is why, in my opinion, its better to not try to 'dress up' your actions as being some sort of noble endeavor, but just to call it like it is. :D
Just say "We consider TTI a threat to us. We are going after them". No one can really argue with that and it's a perfectly legitimate reason to go to war.
On the other hand, starting a big 'moral crusade' against TTI because they hired m0o/sin to take you out and citing that as the reason to go to war...well let's just say it tends to look a bit silly in retrospect when it turns out they really didn't, that in effect, you were the aggressors. 
What I'm saying is, if you are trying to paint yourself as the righteous aggreived party, it is your duty to provide adequate proofs. Otherwise you just look hypocritical.
But if you just say "Hey, we don't need to justify our actions - we don't like TTi. We are going to hit them before they hit us" that's a stance I think most people can understand and respect :D
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Stavros
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Posted - 2003.09.04 02:16:00 -
[69]
OMG OMG OMG ITS MY BROTHER OR SOMINK!?!?!
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Fortoye Drak
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Posted - 2003.09.04 02:55:00 -
[70]
Quote:
OMG OMG OMG ITS MY BROTHER OR SOMINK!?!?!
Thought that was Davros .. you know the guy ...
Press Liason
Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site |
Neptunus
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Posted - 2003.09.04 05:37:00 -
[71]
So Tornsoul, now that Stavros has reduced you to the ***** you are for grandstanding fake evidence, are you gonna come out and apologize and say how wrong you were?
Or are you gonna ignore it and hope it goes away. I was VERY suspicious of your post when you first made it, but now I know for sure you really are a patsy *****.
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Ashton Black
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Posted - 2003.09.04 06:58:00 -
[72]
No need for that Nep. If you don't believe....fine but no need for stupid flaming.
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Doctor X
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Posted - 2003.09.04 07:24:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Doctor X on 04/09/2003 07:24:53
Haha Stavros made a complete fool of TornSoul, Molle, and the whole bunch, proving once again that y'all are a bunch of weenies and that Stavros is TEH WIN |
TornSoul
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Posted - 2003.09.04 08:16:00 -
[74]
ROFL - It's amuzing how you all believe Stavros when he says what you want (that I've made the whole thing up)
On page one of this thread he said the excact opposite
Quote:
look Tornsoul is right - I believe him and that should be enough for all of you
At least read the whole thread before commenting. 
But believe what you want.
FA went to war because we saw a threat, the best way to eliminate the threat was to cut of the hand with the money.
@Ulstan
I have never claimed we went to war over some ¦moral' issue (others might have), but simply to protect ourself.
BIG Lottery
[u |
Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.04 08:54:00 -
[75]
Quote:
Edited by: Uncle Enzo on 26/08/2003 18:14:01
What Josephine is doing is "following the money", a time honored tradition of intelligent investigation. For the "proof" to convince anybody it would need to address the following:
Who: Which TTI member offered that money?
Motive: Why would a TTI member spend money to have FA people killed? What economic benefit is there?
Method: Who was the money offered to?
So far nothing of the above has been provided, just Tornsoul posting some text and insisting it is "proof". The only way we would believe such "proof" is if we where all the idiots that Evolution says we are.
P.S. Oops, Tenzo is right. Stavr0s trumps all!
are you completly blind man?
do you not know why TTI would put bounties? i mean did you like sleep through the hole TTI VA thing? and evo and xan and other FA corps going there to take on TTI etc...
i mean i dont have to post it there have been like 20+ threads about it...
do you need any better motive then that? can you not see the motive its so clear...
they would pay more for evo and xan because they were pretty much who started the attacks on VA which had TTI at the time... and WHO KNOWS WHAT PLANS TTI REALLY HAD FOR VA, and EVO, XAN and FA screwed it up some how... which of course now im speculating but its good enough...
but you dont need to believe my speculation just the facts and the events that already took which, being facts is enough of a motive, if you dont take facts i dont know what you would.
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.04 08:57:00 -
[76]
Quote:
"It's strange how you question anything I bring forward, but I've yet to see you question TTI."
Possibly because TTI isn't flinging accusations around w/out any kind of proof, nor trying to pass off a few lines of typed text as proof.
yes they dont need to they just put bounties on ppl etc...
they have enough isk... and that takes care of most things for them so it seems...
if you havnt read the events that took place in VA, i was there i saw the chats with Mega and FA evo, xan etc... them saying that they were getting payed for kills etc...
if you think that isnt part of the evidance then what else?
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Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2003.09.04 09:26:00 -
[77]
Ultimately TTi is allied to M3G4 now, whereas the NVA and FA are gathering allies from peaceful corps who have never engaged in piracy of any sort whatsoever. Whatever the original cause was or was not, TTi's true colours have come out.
When faced with a difference of opinion they were threatening corporations within the VA using the threat'there was a safe side and a dangerous side' as a convincing argument for their loyalty. At the very same time VA members were pledging to fight to the death against FA whilst allied to TTi.
When the vote came the outcome was immaterial to TTi, they immediately smashed all semblence of loyalty to the alliance saying that they did not recognise the council and declaring war on half the alliance. The fact that TTi had lost the plot and descended into lunacy is shown by the immediate reaction of those present. Mere logs do not capture the moment - as exclamations of suprise and anger came quick and fast.
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 13:35:00 -
[78]
On page 1 Stavros said
"look Tornsoul is right - I believe him and that should be enough for all of you cos I am greater than u all combined (cept for TomB) so shut up and hurt TTI already.
That is all pls return to your idol worship of moi, thanks!
Stav - Grand High Master Of Eve (FEEED ME I R HUNGEY!)"
I seriously hope you were able to recognize this for what it was, and not take it as a serious endorsal of your view. It's Stravros at his best, making a good point (about the lack of evidence) while building up his own ego :)
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 13:36:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Ulstan on 04/09/2003 13:39:15
"I have never claimed we went to war over some ¦moral' issue (others might have), but simply to protect ourself."
Good enough for me :D But many others have claimed that they went to war with the great Satan TTI who was paying the evil m0o/sinister to come hunt down innocents in Fountain, and that by doing this they were breaking the NAP and deserved to be invaded!
"if you havnt read the events that took place in VA, i was there i saw the chats with Mega and FA evo, xan etc... them saying that they were getting payed for kills etc...
if you think that isnt part of the evidance then what else"
Drutort, I advise you to re-read this thread and others, paying CAREFUL ATTENTION to the dates on the posts.
Your inability to comprehend what we are talking about here astounds me. We are speaking of the past, not the present. What is happening NOW is irrelevent to the discussion.
We are not discussing if TTI has ever done anything to make people want to declare war on them - the issue is, how ironic it is that people got all worked up to launch some sort of holy crusade against TTi for paying m0o/sin to attack Fountain, and then it turns out these people were actually the aggressors. :)
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Yoseph Cohen
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Posted - 2003.09.04 13:40:00 -
[80]
Removed - Orestes
Yoseph Cohen
Aluf
Israeli Defense Forces
(A divison of Israeli Space Corporation) |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 15:03:00 -
[81]
"Also, you have a rather loud mouth, are you part of one of TTI's supply corps?"
Apparently you haven't learned anything from your mistakes. You said the exact same things about anyone who disagreed with you about the 'proof' Tornsoul put forward that m0o/sin had been hired to attack Fountain.
And you were shown dramatically, perhaps even embarassingly wrong. Your position that there is no possible way anyone other than a member of TTi could disagree with you is as arrogant and pretentious as anything TTi ever did.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 19:15:00 -
[82]
"OOC: Finally, and I'm not going to discuss this any further so feel free not to answer if you can't, if race means nothing to you then why did you use 'French and German' as an insult on another thread a short time ago?"
Possibly he was referring to a sharing of ideologies, rather than race. That is how I read it anyway.
And I agree with Muad-dib - calling Ragnar ****** or the NVA the Vietnamese is kind of silly :)
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.04 20:26:00 -
[83]
Quote:
Edited by: Yoseph Cohen on 04/09/2003 19:58:36
Again I want to stress that I got into this debate feeling both sides were at fault. But I feel the evidence (or lack thereof) at this point is such that an intelligent person must draw the conclusion that the abject and complete hatred for TTI in this game is not rational, and is fueled by a group of professional spin doctors.
Yoseph Cohen
Aluf
Israeli Defense Forces
see the problem with facts.... that in RL they would work... in this game, that is missing so much of the areas that you can do in RL to get facts is big... there are far too many differences between trying to find FACTS in this game VS IRL...
because the game lacks so the methods of getting facts you shouldnĘt be so fast to call for them...
if im wrong about the facts then please show us how we can gather facts from either side that could be seen as being true and not made up...
please do so... as i see it its very hard to get facts in this game, unless you got spies or something in other corp's then maybe you can do it but even then because this is a game you will never be able to find out what some people are talking behind other doors because there are NO TOOLS in doing so... even IF you were a spy etc...
the game engine and mechanics limit the players from finding some form of facts that are accepted....
and those that do have facts do not want to give away the sources because well that would compromise them and what good would it be to prove 1 source and to lose all future sources that might be of greater value to your self or your side, EVEN IF the PUBLIC DOESNĘT BELIEVE YOU.
There is no court there is no way to take people on some form of trial there is hardly anything that you could even do, besides go and declare a WAR on another corp...
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.04 20:33:00 -
[84]
Yoseph Cohen, why donĘt you go and read some of the posts of TTI and there made up news...
really go do so... you will find how much BS there is to them... and how they do not even bring up some of the key issues that we bring up here...
and if you think that TTI has facts then please bring them forward besides there word...
its very easy on any side to talk really and that is a problem... but i guess you have to stick with one side or neither...
the fact that all pirates or any corp can keep on denying forever that they never get paid by any corp to do any kind of job and just to do it for fun...
as some have said they want to see a motive!!
well jee fun isnt a big motive especially when you know that if you go into an alliance that you might be taking a big risk of LOSING ships more then destroying them... and if its all in fun that who really in there right mind would go do something when you can go and camp 23/7 the gates and pick off defenseless players???
on the other hand ISK is a big motivator and regardless that you do not have any tangible evidence of this because the lack of means of obtaining evidence and facts in this game...
the ONLY FACTS are the ACTIONS TAKEN, BASED ON THOSE you can make a great deal of hypothesis and/or speculation... and that is something to some...
as I said there is great lack of tools in this game from getting good sold facts!!...
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Orestes
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Posted - 2003.09.04 20:40:00 -
[85]
I'm locking this thread briefly to delete some posts.
We will soon resume to our regular programming.
Join the IC! |
Orestes
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Posted - 2003.09.04 20:46:00 -
[86]
Several posts regarding real-life analogies were removed.
Discussions steered in the way of politics, or hate-group philosophies, however tenuous the connection, tend to degenerate in a mass of flames pretty rapidly. For that reason, we can't have them on the forum and so I deleted them.
Carry on 
Join the IC! |
Falnaerith
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Posted - 2003.09.04 21:18:00 -
[87]
Thx 
Now where were we? Ahh yes, speculation:
I speculate that the price of cheese within eve will start going up.
After all, you need some cheese to go with everybody's whine.
-------------------
Basic truths?
Idiots make us rich.
-
Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill them. |
High Priestess
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Posted - 2003.09.04 22:15:00 -
[88]
Drutort, Ive noticed this as well but I will also add Ive seen no evidence from the instigators of this entire war justifying its beginning in the first place. Will you call them out as well and confront them for "proof"? Lets be fair here it seems everyone is posturing and lying for whatever reason. Id like to see why this war started in the first place. Thank you.
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Tristan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 22:23:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Tristan on 04/09/2003 22:26:13
/me stabs thread
DIE THREAD DIE!
why?? because its getting very very bloody dull.
comes a point where you cant pick at a piece of meat any more, and i think your down to the marrow and still not come to a conclusion thats undeniable by everyone.
in other words.. this crap could go on forever, its pointless, give it a rest already.
High priestess.. you are in danger of begining to sound like Mrs Doyle.
gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan...
yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil.. *yawns* 
Come on, drop it already, your posts are well put together, intelligent, if sometimes mis/uninformed but good reading, but come on...
next topic please.
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Kaleb
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Posted - 2003.09.05 08:50:00 -
[90]
Try as I may, as soon as J0sephine posts one of her 1500 words essays, I can no longer be bothered to finish reading a thread.
I suppose that's what she's going for... touche.
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