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Evidence of TTI targeting the Fountain Alliance

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TornSoul	Posted - 2003.08.25 18:57:00 - [1] Edited by: TornSoul on 25/08/2003 19:02:49 I think this little bit of info deserves to not be buried at page 7 of The verdict has fallen. ----- This one is for Calladen Nimitz, who thinks stopping others playing the game they want is greifing by (his) definition Quote: YYY > why we wasting time whn we can be earning TTI bounties ? XXX > TTI bounties??? YYY > call moo and sinister YYY > ss fa kills YYY > get paid, higher pay for evo or xan guys I think that qualifies TTI as griefers by Calladen Nimitz own definition - eh Hypocrites(sp)? Maybe thats teh real reason why Calladen Nimitz wants to leave - He has noticed something rotten (again by his own definition) inside tti? PS : And this was evidently not taken from your precious tti forum - but is a log from ingame. I hope thats ok with tti? BIG Lottery [u
Uncle Enzo	Posted - 2003.08.25 19:01:00 - [2] Lol dude, TTI has its problems but if you think typing a few lines of random XXX YYYs is evidence you are a total loon.
TornSoul	Posted - 2003.08.25 19:07:00 - [3] I assure you - There is nothing random about it. And the reasons for the XXX and YYY should be rather obvious - well to most at least. BIG Lottery [u
Uncle Enzo	Posted - 2003.08.25 19:14:00 - [4] Dude, I could just as easily wrote: AAA> I paid TornSoul a bunch of isk to slam TTI because I'm scared of them BBB> Yeah I did too because TornSoul is so l33t on the bordZ!!! That wouldn't prove anything, even if I said, "I assure you, this is true!!!"
frstkor13	Posted - 2003.08.25 19:23:00 - [5] Tornsoul has been around eve since you were in diapers Enzo, and I can promise you his word is good enough for anything in this game. There are 2 types of people, ones you can trust, and ones you can't. Tornsoul is the former.
Stavros	Posted - 2003.08.25 19:29:00 - [6] I dont really care, any reason is a good reason to hate tti is a good reason for their sheer arrogance if nothing else. -- "Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You"
Bluto	Posted - 2003.08.25 19:42:00 - [7] Edited by: Bluto on 25/08/2003 19:42:16 So Tornsoul's evidence is "because I say so", and it is backed up by some guy who I've never heard of. Look up the definition of hearsay and try again guys.
Tenzo	Posted - 2003.08.25 20:16:00 - [8] you might not have heard of him... but i can assure you that Tornsoul is a well known and well respected member of the EVE Community.. That was the reason i applied to become a part of his Corp and i've never looked back
Crimson Rose	Posted - 2003.08.25 20:20:00 - [9] Bluto, I looked up the definition. Well, a couple of problems. Not everyone can be an eye-witness and on top of that, every post we make is our own perception. There is no right or wrong here.
Cyrus Grissom	Posted - 2003.08.25 20:22:00 - [10] I think he meant backed up by frstkor13? Anyway, the proof is a cut & paste of some IRC chatter looks like, probably by a couple pirates (moo?) Doesn't seem like stunning proof to me. Last time I was in a system with a moo they where spouting all sorts of crap.
Godless	Posted - 2003.08.25 20:33:00 - [11] Bluto you don't know Tornsoul...that says a lot about you.
Tenzo	Posted - 2003.08.25 20:35:00 - [12] This topic isnt about Tornsoul... It is about TTI paying contracts on FA Members
Raem Civrie	Posted - 2003.08.25 20:38:00 - [13] TornSoul, smornsoul. He still bows to my greatness. Yeah, I can vouch for him too. - Shamaroth
Uncle Enzo	Posted - 2003.08.25 20:42:00 - [14] Edited by: Uncle Enzo on 25/08/2003 20:45:16 Seems like this thread is about one guy saying "I say this so it is so" and a bunch of his friends saying "he said it so it must be true!" Whether Tornsoul is reputable or not is a totally different question from whether he has produced any actual proof.
TornSoul	Posted - 2003.08.25 20:53:00 - [15] Let me quote a question i posed from page 3 of The verdict has fallen. Quote: Quote: I've still seen no proof that TTI paid a pirate corp to kill evo. And just what would constituate proof? Any logs of anything, would simply be dismised by TTI as being falsified - right? Thanks for proving my point (although you are not tti) ---- To make this thread just mildly entertaining, (and discussing my credibility is not), could we just agree to discuss the ramafication of the info I have provided (whether you believe it or not), which in my mind is far more interesting. BIG Lottery [u
Uncle Enzo	Posted - 2003.08.25 20:55:00 - [16] I guess one ramification would be you have such a big ego that you want people to just take what you say as gospel?
Stavros	Posted - 2003.08.25 21:15:00 - [17] look Tornsoul is right - I believe him and that should be enough for all of you cos I am greater than u all combined (cept for TomB) so shut up and hurt TTI already. That is all pls return to your idol worship of moi, thanks! Stav - Grand High Master Of Eve (FEEED ME I R HUNGEY!) -- "Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You"
Femme Fatal	Posted - 2003.08.25 21:24:00 - [18] ill have to ditto stav
TornSoul	Posted - 2003.08.25 21:24:00 - [19] Quote: ...a big ego Hey - Leave the puns to me would ya Of Course I got a BIG ego - what else could I have BIG Lottery [u
SirMolle	Posted - 2003.08.25 22:46:00 - [20] Would be interested to see more snippets like that. Thanks Tornsoul.
TornSoul	Posted - 2003.08.26 07:30:00 - [21] Yeah I find them interesting as well Molle, but ppl seems to think they're made up - so whats the point? I provide evidence that tti are griefers (using their own definitions) and noone comments on that. But lets see - I might go dig up some other stuff...... BIG Lottery [u
SkyLeach	Posted - 2003.08.26 09:39:00 - [22] Thankyou for bringing that up Tornsoul. TTI, i would think long and hard before pulling any more stunts. If the allegations are true, then they are quite damning. I would think long and hard before angering the FA.
Deathwing	Posted - 2003.08.26 10:45:00 - [23] Whoa First there is a log of Ragnar is an alt telling molle he will destroy a member from Pardon Inc (who had a NAP with TTI at the time and are now allied with them) Now there is stuff about TTI hiring out m0o to take out hits on FA members? Im confused. Why would you want TTI in the Venal Alliance? First they have alt chars to shoot down your ships, then they bring wars to your region? <Stavros> A MAN DRESSED AS SPIDERMAN KICKED MY ASS
Uncle Enzo	Posted - 2003.08.26 13:46:00 - [24] Edited by: Uncle Enzo on 26/08/2003 13:50:03 You guys do realize how trasparent and cheezy your tactics here are right? I mean, a guy who has an axe to grind with TTI posts "evidence" (which is little more than some text he probably made up), then a few people from his corp say, "amen brothah!", then a few members of evo (Deathwing is a member of Evo, but didn't include his corp - gee how tricky), who are actively at war with TTI, say, "yeah yeah!" I mean, how much more obvious an attempt at cheap propaganda can you get? TTI has its faults but you guys are actively making them look good by saying such stupid things about them. Don't insult the intelligence of the people who read this forum.
Deathwing	Posted - 2003.08.26 14:06:00 - [25] Edited by: Deathwing on 26/08/2003 14:07:40 How is my not putting my corp name under my name tricky? So i could care less who know what corp im in, its not like it makes a difference, I have never had a corp name under my name in any post i have ever made on these forums in the last year and a half, so what is your point? And as for insulting the intelligence of the people of this forum, that is yet to be seen as half the people on these forums couldnt muster up the brain power to rival dead fedo, let alone have the IQ necessary to be insulted by anything that is posted here. And as for anything we post being cheap propaganda. The only thing that makes anything in these forum propaganda is your interpretation of them. Now, I have no idea who you are, i dont really care who you are either. Unles you are from Venal or are in some way related to the events of what is going on, then who cares what you think really? Go to the corner Sit down And be quiet son <Stavros> A MAN DRESSED AS SPIDERMAN KICKED MY ASS
Ulstan	Posted - 2003.08.26 14:07:00 - [26] One of the best things going for TTI is the low intelligence of many of the people who hate them. (Not all, just... most). "YYY > why we wasting time whn we can be earning TTI bounties ? XXX > TTI bounties??? YYY > call moo and sinister YYY > ss fa kills YYY > get paid, higher pay for evo or xan guys" Could someone translate this to english for me? I'm having trouble. It looks like the first guy is suggesting going and killing some TTI guys and getting the bounties from them. The second guy says "There are bounties on TTi?" And the first guy says "Yeah, just ask m0o or Sinister" Then we have the line "ss fa kills" Which I don't understand at all. And lastly "YYY > get paid, higher pay for evo or xan guys" Which is clear enough - whoever is paying the bounties (m0o or sinister?) is paying more for Xanadu or Evolution guys. Now, clearly I seem to have read it a different way than the rest of you. The only line giving me trouble is the ss fa kills line. Without that it would seem plain m0o and sinister are giving bounties on TTI members.
Deathwing	Posted - 2003.08.26 14:12:00 - [27] Let me translate for you, as you obviously fall into one of my descriptions in a previous post i made. Quote: The second guy says "There are bounties on TTi?" And the first guy says "Yeah, just ask m0o or Sinister" Then we have the line "ss fa kills" Which I don't understand at all. And lastly "YYY > get paid, higher pay for evo or xan guys" OK, "ss fa kills: means, ScreenShot for all you n00bs in the crowd. FA is Fountain Alliance, much like Venal Alliance is VA. And "kills" means dead plural. "Get paid, higher for Evo or Xan guys" means that TTI will pay more ISK for the screenshots of dead Evo or Xan guys. I hope this have been informative <Stavros> A MAN DRESSED AS SPIDERMAN KICKED MY ASS
Uncle Enzo	Posted - 2003.08.26 14:17:00 - [28] Quote: And as for insulting the intelligence of the people of this forum, that is yet to be seen as half the people on these forums couldnt muster up the brain power to rival dead fedo, let alone have the IQ necessary to be insulted by anything that is posted here. Half the people on this forum don't have the brain power of a dead fedo? You seem as arrogant as you claim TTI is - maybe more so, none of them have insulted at least half the forum the way you just did. Quote: Unles you are from Venal or are in some way related to the events of what is going on, then who cares what you think really? You Evo obviously do care a hell of a lot of what people think of you, because you spend so much of your time posting here instead of fighting your war, including participating in lame propaganda efforts like Tornsoul's.
Deathwing	Posted - 2003.08.26 14:25:00 - [29] Do you know what Knowing that i have insulted someone obviously has just ruined my day, and it has just started If you have been offended by me, please, post in the Intergalactic summet in character, and title the topic "Dear Deathwing" and I will be sure to drop by, and answer any questions you have, and hopefully, brighten your day <Stavros> A MAN DRESSED AS SPIDERMAN KICKED MY ASS
High Priestess	Posted - 2003.08.26 15:13:00 - [30] I for one dont understand all this fuss about one corporation. Dont you people have anything better to do?
Skillz	Posted - 2003.08.26 15:17:00 - [31] Yeah, like killing the whole of Stain Alliance, which is a bunch of communists. :) Keep on flaming, lamers.
Ulstan	Posted - 2003.08.26 16:27:00 - [32] Thank you for the clarification deathwing. Should have thought ss = screenshots. I was thinking of ffa = free for all (stupid Warcraft III messing me up!) rather than thinking fa = fountain alliance. What does the call sinister moo line mean? Are these people hired to carry out the bounties? Or are they being listed as a reference?
Josephine	Posted - 2003.08.26 16:49:00 - [33] I do have one question for the Evolution members, especially SirMolle and Tornsoul(of BIG) : Why? You keep saying "TTI does this, TTI does that" however so far whenever I have seen TTI act or react it has always been clear that they don't do things without a reason or thought behind their actions. As you seem to be still withholding any real information on the issue and see it as a good enough reason to act on I assume you have a good answer on the why question aswell, because I can't seem to figure it out. Fountain isn't intresting as an area for TTI(why else their focus on Venal for the last couple weeks), nor would joining Fountain propably be a problem to begin with, TTI has had close ties with Xanadu for months(They did a hunt on Tank or some other pirate together and both used to hang out in dantumi in the early days), and there seems to be no gain in paying for the bodies of another corp for them anyways, it's not like they've shown much intrest in the killing side of things. I admit they propably don't have a military that is strong(atleast judging by the stuff posted on the forums, then again we know how reliable that is with people competing to see who can spawn a rumor ingame and get it onto the forums the fastest...) and evenmore TTI has on most occasions when they do or say something been very clear on the issue that profits and ISK is their goal, not PvP, and frankly killing EVO or XAN makes absolutly no sense on that front either, afterall Techell prolly is the closest annoyance to TTI in terms of profit due to their Bship production in caldari space. Oh and I do hope you have something more reliable as proof than 2 guys talking ingame in some channel, third party views on things are about the easiest thing to fake in the game afterall, you just need 1 friend and you can start whatever rumors you want ingame which reminds me, those people in your log speak of TTI yet TTI is not centralised nor do they have centralised resources, exactly who within TTI is the individual who is paying out these bounties? How much have the said pirates made on this deal you refer to so far?
TornSoul	Posted - 2003.08.26 17:10:00 - [34] Quote: I do have one question for the Evolution members, especially SirMolle and Tornsoul(of BIG) : Why? Josephine how come you dont ask TTI : Why? (They are the ones who put out the contract afterall) -- As to your question. If someone came and, say, cut up your car tires, and you found out that that person was hired to do so by someone else - Who would you go after? BIG Lottery [u
Josephine	Posted - 2003.08.26 17:36:00 - [35] Quote: Quote: I do have one question for the Evolution members, especially SirMolle and Tornsoul(of BIG) : Why? Josephine how come you dont ask TTI : Why? (They are the ones who put out the contract afterall) I've seen to many faked logs in my times to assume something is the case whenever someone accuses another person of something and posts an edited abridged version of a log. Innocent until proven guilty I think the saying goes, as such the burden of proof lies on your side of the courtroom, and part of the presentation of evidence in a case involves the question of motive(atleast in Matlock). Quote: -- As to your question. If someone came and, say, cut up your car tires, and you found out that that person was hired to do so by someone else - Who would you go after? I'd go after the person who cut my tires, then after the person who hired them to cut the tires. I would question why someone would pay anyone to cut my old Golf's tires though aswell. Also you haven't so far shown me anything to suggest someone podded Xanadu and Evolution members and was payed for those pods, you've only shown part of a log that 2 people(whos relationship with TTI, Xanadu and Evolution so far is unknown as is their names or corp affiliations) discussing TTI offering payment for Xanadu and Evolution corpses especially, for Fountain Alliance corpses in general aswell. If you hear 2 guys(XXX and YYY) on the street discussing the option of cutting the tires of some guy you know's cars on the next street because person ZZZ will pay them something for it, why do you assume person ZZZ is guilty without questioning the information, XXX and YYY's own ambitions and goals, aswell as what ZZZ or you would gain in the matter? I think the word people tend to use for people who will run and act according to the strings tied to them without question is puppet and drone, and seeing how people seem to put value on your long existance in the community I do wonder why you don't question and analyse things when they appear in front of you.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.08.26 17:50:00 - [36] Quote: Yeah, like killing the whole of Stain Alliance, which is a bunch of communists. :) You couldn't podkill a 2 minute old newbie in a hulled Velator. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Tenzo	Posted - 2003.08.26 18:04:00 - [37] Quote: look Tornsoul is right - I believe him and that should be enough for all of you cos I am greater than u all combined (cept for TomB) so shut up and hurt TTI already. Stav - Grand High Master Of Eve Uncle Enzo and all you other disbelievers... Cant you read... Stavr0s of m0o corp had said Tornsoul is right.....do you need anymore proof?
Uncle Enzo	Posted - 2003.08.26 18:08:00 - [38] Edited by: Uncle Enzo on 26/08/2003 18:14:01 What Josephine is doing is "following the money", a time honored tradition of intelligent investigation. For the "proof" to convince anybody it would need to address the following: Who: Which TTI member offered that money? Motive: Why would a TTI member spend money to have FA people killed? What economic benefit is there? Method: Who was the money offered to? So far nothing of the above has been provided, just Tornsoul posting some text and insisting it is "proof". The only way we would believe such "proof" is if we where all the idiots that Evolution says we are. P.S. Oops, Tenzo is right. Stavr0s trumps all!
Tenzo	Posted - 2003.08.26 18:09:00 - [39] are u blind.....
Skillz	Posted - 2003.08.26 19:14:00 - [40] Edited by: Skillz on 26/08/2003 19:15:24 And Stavros is known as a carebear that never lies? And Calvert, you're the only one that has ever actually admitted to having podded himself. Keep on flaming, lamers.
Tenzo	Posted - 2003.08.26 19:28:00 - [41] Well he might not be a carebear but at the same time he could well be telling the truth... If Stavr0s is saying Tornsoul is right.. who am i to argue
TornSoul	Posted - 2003.08.26 20:28:00 - [42] Quote: ...For the "proof" to convince anybody it would need to address the following: Who: Which TTI member offered that money? Motive: Why would a TTI member spend money to have FA people killed? What economic benefit is there? Method: Who was the money offered to? So far nothing of the above has been provided, just Tornsoul posting some text and insisting it is "proof" And if I posted that - Let me guess what your reaction would be... Especially when the "who" would (most likely) deny any knowledge of it.... Your logic is flawed Uncle Enzo - seriously flawed. I stand by the little snippet of log I've provided. And tbh Uncle Enzo, I'm actually rather insulted by your insistence that I'm lying and have made the whole thing up. Angry even. I could ask you the same questions you just asked me... what would be my motive for lying, what do I stand to win by lying etc etc. But noooo everyone has to believe you, when you say I've made the whole thing up..... It's strange how you question anything I bring forward, but I've yet to see you question TTI. Double standards dont you think? BIG Lottery [u
Uncle Enzo	Posted - 2003.08.26 21:03:00 - [43] Edited by: Uncle Enzo on 26/08/2003 21:07:45 You are the one shouting from the rooftops that you have "proof" when all you really have is some lines of text that anybody could have made up. Hell, maybe somebody just staged it for your benefit because they knew you'd be foolish enough to post something like this. Let's say you name a TTI and they deny it. That would basically make it his word versus yours. If the TTI person was stupid (or arrogant) enough to say, "well I said it so it must be true!" I'd be flaming them too. Add that to the fact that there is no reason for TTI to pay people to go after random FA people and it of course looks pretty bad for you. You dug this pit you've fallen in to, don't try to blame me for it.
Neptunus	Posted - 2003.08.26 21:21:00 - [44] This is very lame Tornsoul! Show me screenshots of money transfers to pirates from TTI! Show me screenshots of those same pirates in FA attacking them! We're supposed to believe a 2nd-hand log of a bunch of untrustworthy pirates?! How easily could evolution have paid them 1,000 ISK to have that conversation. What a crock. Why don't you mind your own business and stop being jealous of TTI. This war against TTI is nothing but a bunch of bored PvPers flailing at what they perceive to be the richest corp out there. I don't find TTI to be arrogant at all, but I do notice their enemies calling them arrogant a lot! A common cry from the poor! Anyway Tornsoul what business is this of yours anyway, thinking you are some sort of whistleblower by posting a very trumped up looking log with no dates or screenshots from a couple of untrustworthy pirates! The nerve!
Josephine	Posted - 2003.08.26 21:46:00 - [45] Quote: Quote: ...For the "proof" to convince anybody it would need to address the following: Who: Which TTI member offered that money? Motive: Why would a TTI member spend money to have FA people killed? What economic benefit is there? Method: Who was the money offered to? So far nothing of the above has been provided, just Tornsoul posting some text and insisting it is "proof" And if I posted that - Let me guess what your reaction would be... You're not posting all your evidence because you are scared of the reaction? How do you think you not posting it makes your rather open allegations look. Running around yelling "I have proof, they did this, they did that" only to then answer those who ask you to present the whole case that you keep constantly refering to in each post you make with a "Why should I show it to you, I know what you'll say anyways" does seem rather biased on your part, not to mention that it doesn't actually serve us anything except the lack of anything concrete on your side. As you seem to not believe in neither your own evidence nor the intellect of the posters here I find it peculiar that you try to use the same posters to "win" an argument to which you keep avoiding the other side of. Assume I'd post my own argument : "BIG sells and supports M0o. There I've said it. I got proof. It's solid. But oh wait, I won't show it to you, I know how you'll react anyway." into the forums. What do you think people would think about it? Quote: Especially when the "who" would (most likely) deny any knowledge of it.... As I said, you'd prolly deny all knowledge of your large ship deal with m0o, so why should I post anything about it apart from this log I got in a local channel 4 nights ago. AAA : Hey Tornsoul of BIG just gave me 50 million worth in cruisers. BBB : We from m0o own all, ahahhaha. There, it's clear, it's a log, you sir and your corp deal with evil pirates and shall die. I have much more evidence than that but why should I share it with you, afterall I still know what you'd think. Quote: Your logic is flawed Uncle Enzo - seriously flawed. Unlike the "I own all evidence I need but I don't see a point in sharing it with the world" logic... Quote: I stand by the little snippet of log I've provided. And so do I, you traiterous m0o supporter. Quote: And tbh Uncle Enzo, I'm actually rather insulted by your insistence that I'm lying and have made the whole thing up. Angry even. Yes, I'd be angry if anyone thought my "chatlog that proves everything"(TM) isn't enough to show that BIG are a bunch of pirate friends. Quote: I could ask you the same questions you just asked me... what would be my motive for lying, what do I stand to win by lying etc etc. It's clear you have a motive behind your actions, so lets search for one. Just like your deal with m0o this could all be about ships, which you conviniently sell to Evolution and Xanadu who are fighting, hence providing the universe with more reason to go out to Venal to do battle falls well within your goals, or you just want to get more of Fountain on the trip to Venal, again because it will give you more ship sales when the Venal fleets blow the ships up. Or let's assume for a moment that you want Evolution and Xanadu to leave Fountain on more and more combat missions, the more people you can muster to join them the more fierce the attack runs will become, the less ships will be in Fountain which you might just forget to leave your own corp in. Perhaps all this is just your way of getting a bigger share of the money to be made in fountain. But no, being an altruist as yourself your motives could also be totally opposite of this, most likely you have no ISK intrest in the deal and are in it for justice. Afterall TTI is propably not one of the most successful corps out there who are most likely outbidding most of your business even now. You do realise I could go on and on about what you can gain from this, we know of BIGs early reports of ship production which were rather modest at that time, I assume as TTI has grown and keeps offering the same ships you produce that you are missing out on a bunch of sales, let alone the mineral supply that TTI's operations are requiring. Just a few thoughts.... Quote: But noooo everyone has to believe you, when you say I've made the whole thing up..... Actually we're not believing him, we're questioning the information that you provided. You claim it's proof, you claim you have more of the same, yet you say no to sharing the same information with us. As I said in my first post which you so gratiously ignored, the burden of proof in any case lies by the prosecution, not the defense. Quote: It's strange how you question anything I bring forward, but I've yet to see you question TTI. Double standards dont you think? TTI haven't claimed anything so far, we've hardly heard anything from
Josephine	Posted - 2003.08.26 21:55:00 - [46] Edited by: Josephine on 26/08/2003 21:58:20 them so far. And the issue at hand is your call for public prosecution and judgement on TTI. When you posted your evidence on the forums you took it upon yourself to act as the prosecutor against TTI on charges that you claim are true. The burden on bringing forth the evidence that said claims are true is on your side. People are innocent until proven guilty afterall. Your denying of people questioning the same evidence you base your accusations on is what we call double standards, you are afterall trying to deny somone you accuse the right to be defended in the prosecution. Going public with an accusation in a forum afterall is the archetype of a public trial by the community as a whole against a group, persona or entity. Why else would you bring your claims forth publically if not to let the public decide what they want to believe in and what they think is not correct. Your constant obstruction of the same justice that you sought out could also be read in favor of TTI, afterall you keep refering to evidence which you try to shield from the same public. That too is a double standard, you can't expect anyone to pass unbiased judgement if you don't allow for any questioning or viewing of the evidence. ::: stupid post lenght limit, cut my nice text in half, had to rewrite and think through that second part, it lost some of it's charm, the message however should be clear : people are innocent until proven guilty and questioning evidence and claims is the only way to come to any conclusion...
High Priestess	Posted - 2003.08.26 22:07:00 - [47] I find the entire thing pathetic. Who cares what TTI does? I certainly could care less what any of these people do. They dont affect me at all. You people need a life or something and Tornsoul just as a tip post the complete log and the names or no one will care anyway. Then again Josephine is right and they are easily faked so its pretty obvious your only motive here is the start a ruckus and flame. Grow up.
Stavros	Posted - 2003.08.26 22:28:00 - [48] exactly who cares, just kill em anyway, nuff said. what eve needs is a club for rich l33t people, because i would run that club and it would be phat. Stav -- "Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You"
plur	Posted - 2003.08.26 22:40:00 - [49] As phat as you stav? OMG OMG OMG!! 1 - 0 to meh!
Stavros	Posted - 2003.08.26 23:04:00 - [50] i am less phat more l33t, but it is bad english to use the same adjective too many times over and over and besides which it sounds lame. -- "Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You"
Ulstan	Posted - 2003.08.27 00:02:00 - [51] "It's strange how you question anything I bring forward, but I've yet to see you question TTI." Possibly because TTI isn't flinging accusations around w/out any kind of proof, nor trying to pass off a few lines of typed text as proof.
Aeryn Sarum	Posted - 2003.08.27 00:20:00 - [52] Edited by: Aeryn Sarum on 27/08/2003 00:26:35 Quote: Assume I'd post my own argument : "BIG sells and supports M0o. There I've said it. I got proof. It's solid. But oh wait, I won't show it to you, I know how you'll react anyway." into the forums. What do you think people would think about it? à, you'd prolly deny all knowledge of your large ship deal with m0o, so why should I post anything about it apart from this log I got in a local channel 4 nights ago. AAA : Hey Tornsoul of BIG just gave me 50 million worth in cruisers. BBB : We from m0o own all, ahahhaha. There, it's clear, it's a log, you sir and your corp deal with evil pirates and shall die.. Josephine Josephine, you are no TornSoul. ôThere are 2 types of people, ones you can trust, and ones you can't. Tornsoul is the former.ö
Skillz	Posted - 2003.08.27 02:00:00 - [53] Edited by: Skillz on 27/08/2003 02:03:14 This is crap. If you want to believe the word of a lottery ticket salesman as 'fact', or Stavros for that matter. That's your problem. I think the rest demands a bit more there. Keep on flaming, lamers.
Sally	Posted - 2003.08.27 06:23:00 - [54] Funny post. But I think you have to think about the cause before talking about the action. As far as I am informed Evolution and Xanadu are trying to attack Venal since a few days and Xanadu has started a democratic vote in the FA to group up against VA. In my opinion this means somehow war and TTI has the option use any in game method to harm FA members, but I am not aware about TTI selling such contracts against FA members. -- Stories: #1 --
Josephine	Posted - 2003.08.27 06:28:00 - [55] Quote: Edited by: Aeryn Sarum on 27/08/2003 00:26:35 Quote: Assume I'd post my own argument : "BIG sells and supports M0o. There I've said it. I got proof. It's solid. But oh wait, I won't show it to you, I know how you'll react anyway." into the forums. What do you think people would think about it? à, you'd prolly deny all knowledge of your large ship deal with m0o, so why should I post anything about it apart from this log I got in a local channel 4 nights ago. AAA : Hey Tornsoul of BIG just gave me 50 million worth in cruisers. BBB : We from m0o own all, ahahhaha. There, it's clear, it's a log, you sir and your corp deal with evil pirates and shall die.. Josephine Josephine, you are no TornSoul. I do question why I bothered to answer you, but the sense that someone replying on my post should atleast get an answer from me for the effort of posting prevailed. That said I'd like to point a few things out. Indeed, I am no Tornsoul. I have never had any business dealings with him. I have never communicated with him in any other way than through these forums either, and here all he ha shown so far is ignorance to my reply on his comments relating to my first post questioning his and TTIs motive in the actions he claims they have undertaken. I do realise that he answered the post of Uncle Enzo but you would think Tornsoul would atleast put as much effort into his behavior on these forums as Calladen of TTI and Jade Constantine(sp?) as VA spokesperson does, both who answer, or atleast try to answer all posts made towards them in threads. Tornsoul has neglected this courtesy and simply refered to his status as being enough to verify the claims he brings forth. This appears to be enough for you, I question it whenever a prosecutor acts juror and executor on the same case. I question evidence, I question allegations, I question the motive of all involved. Contrary to you I do feel the need to make usage of my brains to come to my own conclusions, contrary to you I seem to represent a group of people who still believe in such a thing as justice. Quote: ôThere are 2 types of people, ones you can trust, and ones you can't. Tornsoul is the former.ö There is one kind of true justice, and she is impartial and based on facts. Have you ever asked yourself why in courtrooms the statue of the lady justice(or what else you call her where you live) is blindfolded? You see this is the very thing why it doesn't matter if you can or can't trust people, when you prosecute or judge someone you don't do it based on who is accusing them but based on the evidence. There have been plenty of times when this has not been the case, in all dictatorships throughout history for example justice looses its meaning when the regime takes over the justice system and uses it for their own gain. If you don't agree you are guilty, if you are in the way you are guilty. When the judge is the one presenting the case, deciding the punishment and dealing it out you have left the realms of a free society. I do find it amusing that there are people who try to argue with a simple idea such as "innocent until proven guilty" or evidence based judgement...
Drakmarr V	Posted - 2003.08.27 07:01:00 - [56] One more flame and this post is toast, get it? Good im watching. Drakmarr VonDimus MacBanyon Polaris Centurion Lead Forum Moderator
TornSoul	Posted - 2003.08.27 07:59:00 - [57] @Drakmarr V I dont see any flaming - battle of wits yes - but no flaming [;)] (the second the thread gets taken over by flaming/trolling I'm out anyhow) @Neptunus Quote: Show me screenshots of money transfers to pirates from TTI! Show me screenshots of those same pirates in FA attacking them! C'mon - how is a screenshot af that any better than any log? A screenshot can be just as easily faked. Basically anything digital can be... Quote: Anyway Tornsoul what business is this of yours anyway BIG happens to be a part of FA, so we are a target just as much as evo/xan are. @Josephine Quote: You're not posting all your evidence because you are scared of the reaction? C'mon - what would be the point? You wouldnt bellieve a word of it anyhow. Quote: ...As I said in my first post which you so gratiously ignored... ...and here all he ha shown so far is ignorance to my reply on his comments relating to my first post... Josephine... I had gone to bed when you posted that - ok.... Please dont start accusing me of being ignorant and what not, just because I dont answer your post within 10 minutes.... ---------------- To round this of Basically this whole thing has (once again) proved how useless it is to present any kind of evidence, as its impossible to proof it's validity. The only way to validate the evidence is if the 'accused' admits that its true - and we all know how likely that is... You could of course steal it from their forums... In order to sue, they'd had to admit it was legit... But thats a totally different matter of course.... Mayby ppl now understand why EVO has stopped giving any reasons to why they do what they do.... BIG Lottery [u
KIAInkZ	Posted - 2003.08.27 08:07:00 - [58] All I can see are unfounded allegations with the sole intent to drag other corps into a war you can't win. Venal has adjusted to having terroists lurking in every shadow, it has changed it's attitudes and tactics, and the Evolution presence is having no effect. You know this, and as a last pathetic attempt to bring havoc and pain to the galaxy, you continue to spread this propaganda throughout Fountain. The Evolution justice system is not recognised, and never will be. --- Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk
Homo Erectus	Posted - 2003.08.27 08:42:00 - [59] apparently 4life and beckull didnt get your 'evolution isn't bothering us anymore' memo there mr kia. cus they both lost their battleships in the last day of fighting.
Detaitiv	Posted - 2003.08.28 19:08:00 - [60] Evidence is what was offered, not proof. Even the overwhelming amount of evidence we have does not equal what some would require for proof of the alligations. Then again if we offered some screenshots of space being black, we'd still have to demonstrate that our graphics guy was missing for some to believe. Given that impossibility it is far better to offer a taste then to compromise sources. All though it would be very gratifying to post a series of screenshots, full logs, forum code and the like some would remain unconvinced and the very work in cultivating those sources would be wasted. This thread was never meant to accomplish anything more then to share what we've discovered with those who trust Tornsoul's word. The rest of you weren't even considered. /me flees again from the massive waste of time these boards have become.
Ulstan	Posted - 2003.09.03 18:29:00 - [61] Edited by: Ulstan on 03/09/2003 18:30:34 Looks like everyone was completely justified in asking for more proof of Tornsoul's accusations: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=29759 But Tornsoul and Sir Molle are so cute in their earnest protestations that they have mounds of proof, just this is all they'll provide us with. It's too bad they made fools of themselves insisting everyone who claimed TTi did not pay m0o/sin was lying. :(
Riddari	Posted - 2003.09.03 18:30:00 - [62] Cyberdyne systems confirmed this Ulstan... TTI offered ISK for EVOL/XAN/FA corpses. ¼©¼ a history
Ulstan	Posted - 2003.09.03 18:32:00 - [63] Edited by: Ulstan on 03/09/2003 18:36:04 Think you're going to need a timeframe here Riddari. I am sure by now, TTi has offered isk for the corpses of just about everyone in FA and VA. So saying that TTi "has offered" really doesn't tell us much. What we are trying to show if, at the time Tornsoul made these allegations, what she said was true. And according to Sin/m0o/TTi/everyone who would actually know - they were not. In particular, this sentence of Stavros pretty much eliminates all doubt. "m0o/sinister/Russ corp have never received any cash to attack fountain, nor have we been approached to do so." Now was it an understandable mistake? That people already hating TTI would sieze upon any opportunity to further blame them? Sure! I'm sure Tornsoul and the others convinced themselves that TTi actaully was paying pirates. Of course, they were wrong, and thus look like idiots for slandering people of doubting their words or asking for more proof.
TornSoul	Posted - 2003.09.03 23:39:00 - [64] Edited by: TornSoul on 03/09/2003 23:39:58 @Ulstan Quote: .. thus look like idiots for slandering people of doubting their words or asking for more proof. Show me just one post where I've done this. I firmly believe that people are entitled to believe whatever they want. If they don't agree with my points, or believe what I'm writting, I'm just fine with that. That of course doesnt stop me from putting my views forward, or tearing apart their arguments. But slandering people for not believing me - never. But you just did, by saying the above. BIG Lottery [u
TornSoul	Posted - 2003.09.03 23:40:00 - [65] Edited by: TornSoul on 04/09/2003 00:01:46 On another note A little timeline for you (and everyone else): -- The timeline might even surprice some FA members, as I had been sitting on the Intel quite a bit before I revealed it on the FA forum. The reason for this was in order to get even more sources cooporating the story, as I wanted to be 100% sure the Intel was solid, as I knew the consequences(sp) could be dire indeed. 12 of august - This is when I first got wind about something 'abnormal' happening Quote: RUS corp instructs one of their pilots to cease attacks on tti. "Stand down on attacks on TTI. Fire if fired upon but no more. I know its been good for ore loot but were getting a deal with them. The above has never been published anywhere before This was 'disturbing' news, and I gave orders to speed up and increase the Intel gathering. 13th of august -- The news from the day before turned out to be far more disturbing than first envisioned. Remember that BIG was/is part of FA. I got the following summery Quote: Independent sources now stateing that Moo, Sinister and Rus receive paymentfrom tti for FA ships (and others from some "list")proven destroyed. Payment amount is open to wide speculation but seems to be equated with the mineral cost of the ships destroyed. Sources are various and reliable, mostly internal inside the corps. The conversations are not of the "we have this deal with tti" variety, but more like "i'm not in the mood to mine. let's just go take ss of FA'gs blwoing up and collect from TTI" This was simply too unbelievable. I couldnt believe TTI would even consider such a thing. As anyone sane would have to know it would blow up in their face sooner or later. Now the real work started. Over the next many days the Intel got cooporated over and over. 16th of august -- The now (in)famous chatlog I previously posted took place. For completness sake let me post it again Quote: YYY > why we wasting time whn we can be earning TTI bounties ? XXX > TTI bounties??? YYY > call moo and sinister YYY > ss fa kills YYY > get paid, higher pay for evo or xan guys 17th of august -- I was finally convinced their could be no mistake, this was really happening. And it was serious! If too many corps saw this as an opportunity to make some 'easy' money, the newly established FA would be overrun with the scum of EVE and crumble. I was not about to let that happen - so I posted the excact same summery (typos and all) I myself had gotten 4 days earlier on the FA forums - other FA members can confirm this (CEO's or representatives only) Initially the response was the same as the one we have witnessed here on the forums. Disbelief. The FA corps simply had a hard time believing it was true.... But the corps started to arm themself..... And then: 23th of august --- Molle makes his wardecleration: The verdict has fallen. And the rest is, as they say, history. ---------------- You can believe my accounts or not, I dont really care, in the end the outcome is what mattes. FA averted a threat to the new founded alliance by going into the offensive. And before you start screaming "Show me some evidence", let me assure you, I really cant be bothered anymore. As my last attempt (and others before me) shows, any 'digital' evidence will always, by someone, be claimed to have been faked some way or the other. And its true - it easily can be faked. So you either believe the one providing the evidence or you dont. Simple as that really. There never can be 'proof' in this digital world of ours. So please - Feel free to state your opinion that I've made the whole thing up, that I got my facts wrong, that it's all 'spin-doctered', but at least be civil about it. BIG Lottery [u
Stavros	Posted - 2003.09.04 01:34:00 - [66] flippin heck tornsoul who do you think you are? frickin james bond lol ¼_¼ the namesh soul, tornshoul!! err yeah back to the point... you guys take yourselves far too seriously, nobody paid us to do anything. I just find this whole shebang hilarious tbh, people are still churning out this crap even after I deny it. So anyway here we go one last time for the mad ****. WE SMUSHED FOUNTAIN FOR FREE - GRATIS - NADA There we go that should clear it up, although maybe I need to get some billboards somewhere. -- "Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You"*
The Wretch	Posted - 2003.09.04 02:02:00 - [67] FLiPp1n H3ck t0rN5OUl WHo d0 j00 tHiNK J00 Ar3? PHr1CK1N J@mE$ 80ND loL ¼_¼ THe nam3$h 50ul, +OrN$h0ul!! 3rr YE4H B4ck +0 THE po1nT... Y0U 9UY5 TAK3 your$ElV35 pH@R t0O 53R1ou5lY, NOBODy P4iD U$ T0 d0 ANy+H1Ng. I JUSt f1nD TH1$ WHOL3 $h3B@N9 Hil4riOU5 T8h, p30Ple ARe S+ilL CHuRNiN9 0uT thi$ Cr@P 3v3n @Pht3R i DeNY 1t. 50 ANyw@Y h3RE W3 G0 0n3 l45+ tImE P*** T3H m@D cr@cK. We $MU$hED PhOuN+aIN f0R PHr3E - 9r4+I5 - n@dA +H3RE W3 gO tH@T $H0ulD ClE4R i+ Up, @L+H0uGH MAY83 1 nE3d T0 GE+ 5oME 81LL80@rD5 50M3WHer3. That is much better . The Wretch Cyberdyne Systems CEO
Ulstan	Posted - 2003.09.04 02:15:00 - [68] Edited by: Ulstan on 04/09/2003 02:22:22 LoL Wretch :D Tornsoul: I am referring to bits like this "It's strange how you question anything I bring forward, but I've yet to see you question TTI. Double standards dont you think?" Where you imply that people disagreeing with you have double standards. Elsewhere those who disagree with the claims set forth are accused of being TTI alts. You (this is a plural you) seemed to imply there was no reasonable way anyone could doubt the veracity of the statements. That is a little ironic considering the way things turned out. Still, I'm sure you acted in good faith. After all, you heard the pirates talking about being paid. It just turns out that they were making it up, and weren't being paid by TTI to kill Fountain after all. The whole question of who or what to believe is an interesting one :) Generally though, I am inclined to ignore reports stemming from unnamed 'reliable sources'. Anonymity and accountability don't tend to go well together. It's just interesting when one alliance attacks another, basing their entire campaign on reasons that turn out later to have been untrue. This is why, in my opinion, its better to not try to 'dress up' your actions as being some sort of noble endeavor, but just to call it like it is. :D Just say "We consider TTI a threat to us. We are going after them". No one can really argue with that and it's a perfectly legitimate reason to go to war. On the other hand, starting a big 'moral crusade' against TTI because they hired m0o/sin to take you out and citing that as the reason to go to war...well let's just say it tends to look a bit silly in retrospect when it turns out they really didn't, that in effect, you were the aggressors. What I'm saying is, if you are trying to paint yourself as the righteous aggreived party, it is your duty to provide adequate proofs. Otherwise you just look hypocritical. But if you just say "Hey, we don't need to justify our actions - we don't like TTi. We are going to hit them before they hit us" that's a stance I think most people can understand and respect :D
Stavros	Posted - 2003.09.04 02:16:00 - [69] OMG OMG OMG ITS MY BROTHER OR SOMINK!?!?! -- "Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You"
Fortoye Drak	Posted - 2003.09.04 02:55:00 - [70] Quote: OMG OMG OMG ITS MY BROTHER OR SOMINK!?!?! Thought that was Davros .. you know the guy ... Press Liason Big-Bang Burger Bar - Neocom Site
Neptunus	Posted - 2003.09.04 05:37:00 - [71] So Tornsoul, now that Stavros has reduced you to the *** you are for grandstanding fake evidence, are you gonna come out and apologize and say how wrong you were? Or are you gonna ignore it and hope it goes away. I was VERY suspicious of your post when you first made it, but now I know for sure you really are a patsy ***.
Ashton Black	Posted - 2003.09.04 06:58:00 - [72] No need for that Nep. If you don't believe....fine but no need for stupid flaming.
Doctor X	Posted - 2003.09.04 07:24:00 - [73] Edited by: Doctor X on 04/09/2003 07:24:53 Haha Stavros made a complete fool of TornSoul, Molle, and the whole bunch, proving once again that y'all are a bunch of weenies and that Stavros is TEH WIN
TornSoul	Posted - 2003.09.04 08:16:00 - [74] ROFL - It's amuzing how you all believe Stavros when he says what you want (that I've made the whole thing up) On page one of this thread he said the excact opposite Quote: look Tornsoul is right - I believe him and that should be enough for all of you At least read the whole thread before commenting. But believe what you want. FA went to war because we saw a threat, the best way to eliminate the threat was to cut of the hand with the money. @Ulstan I have never claimed we went to war over some ¦moral' issue (others might have), but simply to protect ourself. BIG Lottery [u
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.04 08:54:00 - [75] Quote: Edited by: Uncle Enzo on 26/08/2003 18:14:01 What Josephine is doing is "following the money", a time honored tradition of intelligent investigation. For the "proof" to convince anybody it would need to address the following: Who: Which TTI member offered that money? Motive: Why would a TTI member spend money to have FA people killed? What economic benefit is there? Method: Who was the money offered to? So far nothing of the above has been provided, just Tornsoul posting some text and insisting it is "proof". The only way we would believe such "proof" is if we where all the idiots that Evolution says we are. P.S. Oops, Tenzo is right. Stavr0s trumps all! are you completly blind man? do you not know why TTI would put bounties? i mean did you like sleep through the hole TTI VA thing? and evo and xan and other FA corps going there to take on TTI etc... i mean i dont have to post it there have been like 20+ threads about it... do you need any better motive then that? can you not see the motive its so clear... they would pay more for evo and xan because they were pretty much who started the attacks on VA which had TTI at the time... and WHO KNOWS WHAT PLANS TTI REALLY HAD FOR VA, and EVO, XAN and FA screwed it up some how... which of course now im speculating but its good enough... but you dont need to believe my speculation just the facts and the events that already took which, being facts is enough of a motive, if you dont take facts i dont know what you would. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.04 08:57:00 - [76] Quote: "It's strange how you question anything I bring forward, but I've yet to see you question TTI." Possibly because TTI isn't flinging accusations around w/out any kind of proof, nor trying to pass off a few lines of typed text as proof. yes they dont need to they just put bounties on ppl etc... they have enough isk... and that takes care of most things for them so it seems... if you havnt read the events that took place in VA, i was there i saw the chats with Mega and FA evo, xan etc... them saying that they were getting payed for kills etc... if you think that isnt part of the evidance then what else? support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.09.04 09:26:00 - [77] Ultimately TTi is allied to M3G4 now, whereas the NVA and FA are gathering allies from peaceful corps who have never engaged in piracy of any sort whatsoever. Whatever the original cause was or was not, TTi's true colours have come out. When faced with a difference of opinion they were threatening corporations within the VA using the threat'there was a safe side and a dangerous side' as a convincing argument for their loyalty. At the very same time VA members were pledging to fight to the death against FA whilst allied to TTi. When the vote came the outcome was immaterial to TTi, they immediately smashed all semblence of loyalty to the alliance saying that they did not recognise the council and declaring war on half the alliance. The fact that TTi had lost the plot and descended into lunacy is shown by the immediate reaction of those present. Mere logs do not capture the moment - as exclamations of suprise and anger came quick and fast. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Ulstan	Posted - 2003.09.04 13:35:00 - [78] On page 1 Stavros said "look Tornsoul is right - I believe him and that should be enough for all of you cos I am greater than u all combined (cept for TomB) so shut up and hurt TTI already. That is all pls return to your idol worship of moi, thanks! Stav - Grand High Master Of Eve (FEEED ME I R HUNGEY!)" I seriously hope you were able to recognize this for what it was, and not take it as a serious endorsal of your view. It's Stravros at his best, making a good point (about the lack of evidence) while building up his own ego :)
Ulstan	Posted - 2003.09.04 13:36:00 - [79] Edited by: Ulstan on 04/09/2003 13:39:15 "I have never claimed we went to war over some ¦moral' issue (others might have), but simply to protect ourself." Good enough for me :D But many others have claimed that they went to war with the great Satan TTI who was paying the evil m0o/sinister to come hunt down innocents in Fountain, and that by doing this they were breaking the NAP and deserved to be invaded! "if you havnt read the events that took place in VA, i was there i saw the chats with Mega and FA evo, xan etc... them saying that they were getting payed for kills etc... if you think that isnt part of the evidance then what else" Drutort, I advise you to re-read this thread and others, paying CAREFUL ATTENTION to the dates on the posts. Your inability to comprehend what we are talking about here astounds me. We are speaking of the past, not the present. What is happening NOW is irrelevent to the discussion. We are not discussing if TTI has ever done anything to make people want to declare war on them - the issue is, how ironic it is that people got all worked up to launch some sort of holy crusade against TTi for paying m0o/sin to attack Fountain, and then it turns out these people were actually the aggressors. :)
Yoseph Cohen	Posted - 2003.09.04 13:40:00 - [80] Removed - Orestes Yoseph Cohen Aluf Israeli Defense Forces (A divison of Israeli Space Corporation)
Ulstan	Posted - 2003.09.04 15:03:00 - [81] "Also, you have a rather loud mouth, are you part of one of TTI's supply corps?" Apparently you haven't learned anything from your mistakes. You said the exact same things about anyone who disagreed with you about the 'proof' Tornsoul put forward that m0o/sin had been hired to attack Fountain. And you were shown dramatically, perhaps even embarassingly wrong. Your position that there is no possible way anyone other than a member of TTi could disagree with you is as arrogant and pretentious as anything TTi ever did.
Ulstan	Posted - 2003.09.04 19:15:00 - [82] "OOC: Finally, and I'm not going to discuss this any further so feel free not to answer if you can't, if race means nothing to you then why did you use 'French and German' as an insult on another thread a short time ago?" Possibly he was referring to a sharing of ideologies, rather than race. That is how I read it anyway. And I agree with Muad-dib - calling Ragnar ****** or the NVA the Vietnamese is kind of silly :)
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.04 20:26:00 - [83] Quote: Edited by: Yoseph Cohen on 04/09/2003 19:58:36 Again I want to stress that I got into this debate feeling both sides were at fault. But I feel the evidence (or lack thereof) at this point is such that an intelligent person must draw the conclusion that the abject and complete hatred for TTI in this game is not rational, and is fueled by a group of professional spin doctors. Yoseph Cohen Aluf Israeli Defense Forces see the problem with facts.... that in RL they would work... in this game, that is missing so much of the areas that you can do in RL to get facts is big... there are far too many differences between trying to find FACTS in this game VS IRL... because the game lacks so the methods of getting facts you shouldnÆt be so fast to call for them... if im wrong about the facts then please show us how we can gather facts from either side that could be seen as being true and not made up... please do so... as i see it its very hard to get facts in this game, unless you got spies or something in other corp's then maybe you can do it but even then because this is a game you will never be able to find out what some people are talking behind other doors because there are NO TOOLS in doing so... even IF you were a spy etc... the game engine and mechanics limit the players from finding some form of facts that are accepted.... and those that do have facts do not want to give away the sources because well that would compromise them and what good would it be to prove 1 source and to lose all future sources that might be of greater value to your self or your side, EVEN IF the PUBLIC DOESNÆT BELIEVE YOU. There is no court there is no way to take people on some form of trial there is hardly anything that you could even do, besides go and declare a WAR on another corp... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2003.09.04 20:33:00 - [84] Yoseph Cohen, why donÆt you go and read some of the posts of TTI and there made up news... really go do so... you will find how much BS there is to them... and how they do not even bring up some of the key issues that we bring up here... and if you think that TTI has facts then please bring them forward besides there word... its very easy on any side to talk really and that is a problem... but i guess you have to stick with one side or neither... the fact that all pirates or any corp can keep on denying forever that they never get paid by any corp to do any kind of job and just to do it for fun... as some have said they want to see a motive!! well jee fun isnt a big motive especially when you know that if you go into an alliance that you might be taking a big risk of LOSING ships more then destroying them... and if its all in fun that who really in there right mind would go do something when you can go and camp 23/7 the gates and pick off defenseless players??? on the other hand ISK is a big motivator and regardless that you do not have any tangible evidence of this because the lack of means of obtaining evidence and facts in this game... the ONLY FACTS are the ACTIONS TAKEN, BASED ON THOSE you can make a great deal of hypothesis and/or speculation... and that is something to some... as I said there is great lack of tools in this game from getting good sold facts!!... support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Orestes	Posted - 2003.09.04 20:40:00 - [85] I'm locking this thread briefly to delete some posts. We will soon resume to our regular programming. Join the IC!
Orestes	Posted - 2003.09.04 20:46:00 - [86] Several posts regarding real-life analogies were removed. Discussions steered in the way of politics, or hate-group philosophies, however tenuous the connection, tend to degenerate in a mass of flames pretty rapidly. For that reason, we can't have them on the forum and so I deleted them. Carry on Join the IC!
Falnaerith	Posted - 2003.09.04 21:18:00 - [87] Thx Now where were we? Ahh yes, speculation: I speculate that the price of cheese within eve will start going up. After all, you need some cheese to go with everybody's whine. ------------------- Basic truths? Idiots make us rich. - Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill them.
High Priestess	Posted - 2003.09.04 22:15:00 - [88] Drutort, Ive noticed this as well but I will also add Ive seen no evidence from the instigators of this entire war justifying its beginning in the first place. Will you call them out as well and confront them for "proof"? Lets be fair here it seems everyone is posturing and lying for whatever reason. Id like to see why this war started in the first place. Thank you.
Tristan	Posted - 2003.09.04 22:23:00 - [89] Edited by: Tristan on 04/09/2003 22:26:13 /me stabs thread DIE THREAD DIE! why?? because its getting very very bloody dull. comes a point where you cant pick at a piece of meat any more, and i think your down to the marrow and still not come to a conclusion thats undeniable by everyone. in other words.. this crap could go on forever, its pointless, give it a rest already. High priestess.. you are in danger of begining to sound like Mrs Doyle. gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan gwan... yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil yawil.. yawns Come on, drop it already, your posts are well put together, intelligent, if sometimes mis/uninformed but good reading, but come on... next topic please.
Kaleb	Posted - 2003.09.05 08:50:00 - [90] Try as I may, as soon as J0sephine posts one of her 1500 words essays, I can no longer be bothered to finish reading a thread. I suppose that's what she's going for... touche.
Tehel Necrona	Posted - 2003.09.05 08:57:00 - [91] Yes please move onto more TTI slander topics, this one has embaraced FA. -Necro
Tehel Necrona	Posted - 2003.09.05 09:00:00 - [92] Yes please move onto more TTI slander topics, this one has embaraced FA. -Necro

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