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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.01.28 23:11:00 -
[1]
I've been refocusing on the Rifter since the punisher makes pirating too simple, but I've come across a problem: The rifter tanks as well as a gerbil inside a paper bag.
That's always been my stradegy: Tank the heavy missiles, go under the cruiser damage, tank the medium/light drones. Bleed the enemy to death because my capacitor will sustain.
How do you pirate with the rifter? ACs seem smart to go under guns, but you still have the issue of a web+drones ruining your day. --------------
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Vaedian GER
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Posted - 2006.01.28 23:13:00 -
[2]
Shoot the drones, they're Anti-Frigate-Weapons so tanking them in a Rifter is unwise :). Can't really do much vs. Webbers tho, hey... youre in a 100k ISK frig, what do you expect?
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.01.28 23:15:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Vaedian GER Shoot the drones, they're Anti-Frigate-Weapons so tanking them in a Rifter is unwise :). Can't really do much vs. Webbers tho, hey... youre in a 100k ISK frig, what do you expect?
I was looking for the same survivability that I had in my punisher, able to take down caracals, prophecies, etc. Even webbed it could still tank it long enough to eliminate drones or negate the heavy missile damage. --------------
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Skoodwask
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Posted - 2006.01.28 23:18:00 -
[4]
Frigs don't work for real piracy, unless there tech 2.
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Vaedian GER
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Posted - 2006.01.28 23:21:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Vaedian GER on 28/01/2006 23:22:23 Well the Rifter is, like most Minmatar ships, designed for offensive fighting, not for tanking like Amarr ships. Your best weapon is speed since thats what Minmatar ships are made for (running away). Once webbed you got bad cards. Maybe try 280mm Artillery II. 6km Optimal with EMP plus 8750m Falloff should keep you out of the usual webbing range. With the speed of the Rifter beam lasers and such things still shouldn't hit you. Haven't tried that yet tho, so just a theory.
@Skoodwask: Frigs work very well actually for belt hunting since most npc hunters have long range weapons fitted which dont hit a fast moving frigate.
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Scoundrelus
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Posted - 2006.01.28 23:26:00 -
[6]
Use a Punisher, once you have Amarr Frigate 5 you get 25% to all armor resistances. Its a frig tank.
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.01.28 23:26:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Skoodwask Frigs don't work for real piracy, unless there tech 2.
Right. Tell you what, I'll let you keep that opinion and I'll just continue with my killmails.
Thanks for that clarification. I can see me hopping back into the punisher so I can reengage battlecruisers and similar. --------------
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themule
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Posted - 2006.01.29 00:22:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Originally by: Skoodwask Frigs don't work for real piracy, unless there tech 2.
Right. Tell you what, I'll let you keep that opinion and I'll just continue with my killmails.
Thanks for that clarification. I can see me hopping back into the punisher so I can reengage battlecruisers and similar.
Well I think what he meant is you wont kill anyone that is not a complete noob while pirating in a tech 1 frig. On the other hand intercepter/crusier teams work very well for pirating.
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.01.29 00:33:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 29/01/2006 00:35:17
Quote: Well I think what he meant is you wont kill anyone that is not a complete noob while pirating in a tech 1 frig. On the other hand intercepter/crusier teams work very well for pirating.
Again, you can keep your opinion. Rookies or veterans, webbers or no webbers, nos or no nos, cruiser or battlecruiser, drones or no drones, I can usually kill it when I decide to engage it. Don't underestimate the punisher and it's pilot, that's the downfall of each killmail I receive.
The rifter however, I just can't seem to make it work. Ideas anyone? Remember, cruiser-class and higher victims. --------------
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Kyguard
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Posted - 2006.01.29 00:43:00 -
[10]
You seem so sure of your tactics, so why don't you figure it out?
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The above thoughts are my own and do not represent my alliance.
Join LFC, become someone, become family. |
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Valerie Ganor
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Posted - 2006.01.29 00:47:00 -
[11]
Try a shield extender ?
The biggest problem on a rifter its limited mid and low slots. Rifter are no tanks and will never be with a mixed low/med slot layout like that.
The thing thats great about it though is that its rather versatile, your not focused on shield or armor tanking. so try using a shield extender with a booster or a plate with a repairer ? While both options will probably lower your cap in seconds use either pdu's (if your shield tanking) or cap rechargers (when your armor tanking).
Just remember that minmattar ships are build for speed mostly so having a few nanos will help alot too :)
My current pvp fit rifter is: - High 3x125mm gattlings 1xrocket laucher (will prolly swap this for a nos) - Medium 1xmwd 1xwarp scrambler 1xwebber - Low 3xnanofiber
Can run mwd constantly with good skills but running the other 2 meds will get you into trouble eventually (thats why the nos) +=+=+=+=+=+=+ Win the crowd... |
Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.01.29 00:56:00 -
[12]
Quote: You seem so sure of your tactics, so why don't you figure it out?
Because I am not a fool. I have learned the tactical capability of the punisher and am not afraid to admit that I can not figure out the rifter's potiential. If asking for assistance because I am not afraid to improve upon my own ideas is wrong, then I'm afraid you've either got an ego problem or a lot of people in this game are idiots in your eyes.
Originally by: Valerie Ganor Try a shield extender ?
The biggest problem on a rifter its limited mid and low slots. Rifter are no tanks and will never be with a mixed low/med slot layout like that.
The thing thats great about it though is that its rather versatile, your not focused on shield or armor tanking. so try using a shield extender with a booster or a plate with a repairer ? While both options will probably lower your cap in seconds use either pdu's (if your shield tanking) or cap rechargers (when your armor tanking).
Just remember that minmattar ships are build for speed mostly so having a few nanos will help alot too :)
My current pvp fit rifter is: - High 3x125mm gattlings 1xrocket laucher (will prolly swap this for a nos) - Medium 1xmwd 1xwarp scrambler 1xwebber - Low 3xnanofiber
Can run mwd constantly with good skills but running the other 2 meds will get you into trouble eventually (thats why the nos)
Sounds decent enough and you have a valid point. I need to focus more on damage and mobility than just tanking, a complete mindset change from what I'm used to. So far I'm considering, after minor testing, this:
3x200mm ACs (EMP/Fusion ammo) 1xRocket launcher (explosive rockets)
1xAB 1xScrambler 1xWebber
1xsmall armor repairer 1x200mm plating 1xcapacitor power relay
Cheers. Time to test. MWD's signature makes me too nervous for the inablity to tank with the rifter, and I'm not concerned about closing speed as it isn't a problem for me. --------------
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Skoodwask
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Posted - 2006.01.29 01:00:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 29/01/2006 00:35:17
Quote: Well I think what he meant is you wont kill anyone that is not a complete noob while pirating in a tech 1 frig. On the other hand intercepter/crusier teams work very well for pirating.
Again, you can keep your opinion. Rookies or veterans, webbers or no webbers, nos or no nos, cruiser or battlecruiser, drones or no drones, I can usually kill it when I decide to engage it. Don't underestimate the punisher and it's pilot, that's the downfall of each killmail I receive.
The rifter however, I just can't seem to make it work. Ideas anyone? Remember, cruiser-class and higher victims.
Lets 1v1 then i will use a norm cruiser setup lets see how well you do.
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.01.29 01:12:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 29/01/2006 01:12:59
Quote: Lets 1v1 then i will use a norm cruiser setup lets see how well you do.
First, I have no reason to engage you 1v1 when you are already aware of my exact setup and can thus fit to counter it. In fact, even suggesting a 1v1 in a situation where you can specifically counter anyone's ship doesn't show you are a good pilot, it shows you lack the foresight to know that the person is aware of this and will say "No.". I'm a pirate, not a duelist.
Second, I've taken down many, many, normal cruisers. Some solo, some with a second frigate wingman. Linky4tw
Third, save this discussion for another thread. We are talking about PvP setups here for the rifter-class frigate, not if my tactics work or not. --------------
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Balklanac
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Posted - 2006.01.29 01:14:00 -
[15]
With you current setup you'll be bound to get a few kills here and there, not everybody equips , nos , drones and webbers , not even close.Ive found rifter usefull in patroling 0.0, at their price it beats other ships that could do the same job.
That setup disposable as it is:
3x200mm EMP , 1XRocketL. foxfire
MWD, WS, Web
all nano lows
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.01.29 01:16:00 -
[16]
Looks like good advice. Question though, why the nanofibers instead of the plate? I know they offer additional speed and turning agility, but it doesn't seem that you would be able to engage a caracal or drones. Would that additional 3x nanofiber lows really make it move fast enough to avoid medium drones and negate most of the heavy missile damage? --------------
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Balklanac
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Posted - 2006.01.29 01:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a Looks like good advice. Question though, why the nanofibers instead of the plate? I know they offer additional speed and turning agility, but it doesn't seem that you would be able to engage a caracal or drones. Would that additional 3x nanofiber lows really make it move fast enough to avoid medium drones and negate most of the heavy missile damage?
Oh no, that setup isnt for any sort of defence setup for cruisers or anything else with teeth.Its meant to do just two things, get really close to the target, web and scram , turn off MWD and fire, if you can imagine that would be only good against a few types of targets (barges, haulers) and second point of setup is to travel/enter warp as fast as possible to make 0.0 travel trough uncharted territory as fast and as safe as possible.
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Psycarne
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Posted - 2006.01.29 01:26:00 -
[18]
High= 3 150 IIs + 1 small nos Med= web, ab, 7.5 scrambler Low= 1 tech II small rep, 1 200mm plate tungsten or tech II, 1 damage mod. ------------- Order of the Wombles: Recycling those untidy modules on your ship.
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.01.29 01:26:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Balklanac Oh no, that setup isnt for any sort of defence setup for cruisers or anything else with teeth.Its meant to do just two things, get really close to the target, web and scram , turn off MWD and fire, if you can imagine that would be only good against a few types of targets (barges, haulers) and second point of setup is to travel/enter warp as fast as possible to make 0.0 travel trough uncharted territory as fast and as safe as possible.
Sounds like a killer scout/low-sec tackler though. I'll keep that in mind --------------
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.01.29 01:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Psycarne High= 3 150 IIs + 1 small nos Med= web, ab, 7.5 scrambler Low= 1 tech II small rep, 1 200mm plate tungsten or tech II, 1 damage mod.
Thanks for the loadout, but can you discuss your experience with it? What did you find was it's weakness, it's strength, what should it have avoided and what can it engage carefree? --------------
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dabster
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Posted - 2006.01.29 01:40:00 -
[21]
Punisher is a great tank Rifter is fast and a great tackler
simple huh ___________________________ Brutors Rule! My Eve-vids |
Psycarne
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Posted - 2006.01.29 02:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Originally by: Psycarne High= 3 150 IIs + 1 small nos Med= web, ab, 7.5 scrambler Low= 1 tech II small rep, 1 200mm plate tungsten or tech II, 1 damage mod.
Thanks for the loadout, but can you discuss your experience with it? What did you find was it's weakness, it's strength, what should it have avoided and what can it engage carefree?
Well prior to RMR that was my main ship. I killed NPCers in feroxs very easily with it, I must have killed 10+ BC with that setup. I killed a tempest with it one time also, any AF with no web and long range guns of course would die to it easily.
However, in RMR the missle boost has made it conisiderably harder to kill missle ships in a frigate, I think I lost a couple to caracels after RMR and I haven't tried it since.
Obviously it's biggest weakness was explosive damage, so any missle ship using just explosive missles had to be avoided. I would just get as close to my target as fast as possible, with orbit on 500m as default.
Of course it suffers from being vulnerable to nos, but the same can be said of all frigates. It still has the benefit of being quite fast.
Using the rifter for pirating is just a matter of picking your targets well, attacking turret uses who have no web etc, do it well and it will kill any ship class. But attacking missle uses post RMR could require some experimentation I haven't done it with a rifter for a long time. ------------- Order of the Wombles: Recycling those untidy modules on your ship.
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Shaemell Buttleson
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Posted - 2006.01.29 03:26:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Skoodwask Frigs don't work for real piracy, unless there tech 2.
Yeah right!
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Lienzo
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Posted - 2006.01.29 04:11:00 -
[24]
Use mostly passive modules and it becomes nos-resistant. Velocity is the oldest form of tanking for frigs. Before missile changes there weren't that many options.
BS with exactly 125m3 of drone space are often ideal targets because they often have only heavy drones. 75m3 and they're usually packing lights and mediums. Almost all of them have nos nowadays. My strategy is to treat all capacitor under the burst warfare philosophy. Use almost everything you've got in the very beginning because you aren't going to have any more after that besides just enough to maybe keep scram running intermittently. Instead of a webber for instance, you might be better off with cap injector if you have backup, or simply a one shot targetting jammer if you're solo. Anti-Destroyer setup: Artillery + AB + Sensor damper + 20km warp disruptor & cap mods if needed. With good skills, Proton Ammo should put you right outside 18km. You will need to dive out a bit and back to 18km to keep them scrammed and continually break target lock depending on their skill level. If you are comfortable with just using nanofibers instead of an AB, you can try the double damper setup that only a merlin might use.
It doesn't require much isk to have half a dozen diverse fitted rifters at a SS.
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Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2006.01.29 04:31:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Neon Genesis on 29/01/2006 04:32:05 You're plated 200mm auto setup sounds like a good way to go, and the ab definately looks good there.
I gave up on t1 frigs a while ago, and even more so on close range intys, because of the absolute abundance of drones and nos.
But gg for your punisher exploits, think we can get a movie of it?
Maybe even drop the webber for 2 scramblers? 2 stabs is fairly standard these days as im sure you know.
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.01.29 05:30:00 -
[26]
Besides autocannons have better tracking and way better gun. I would use 150's at the lowest. Remember, autocannons are lighter so you can fit more junk on compared to other guns. Punisher has a awsome low slot layout but you still using cap to shoot where autocannons don't.
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Sentinel Roqeze
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Posted - 2006.01.29 06:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Besides autocannons have better tracking and way better gun. I would use 150's at the lowest. Remember, autocannons are lighter so you can fit more junk on compared to other guns. Punisher has a awsome low slot layout but you still using cap to shoot where autocannons don't.
You're only using cap to fire if you fit lasers though. You can fit autocannons to a Punisher quite happily, leaving you more scope to take advantage of the extra cap provided. Let's not forget that the Punisher gets no damage bonus, so it really doesn't matter what weapons you fit... plus ACs are much easier to fit, and the Punisher's large grid leaves you with a truly flexible ship.
I still use a Rifter myself though.
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.01.29 06:54:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Sentinel Roqeze
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Besides autocannons have better tracking and way better gun. I would use 150's at the lowest. Remember, autocannons are lighter so you can fit more junk on compared to other guns. Punisher has a awsome low slot layout but you still using cap to shoot where autocannons don't.
You're only using cap to fire if you fit lasers though. You can fit autocannons to a Punisher quite happily, leaving you more scope to take advantage of the extra cap provided. Let's not forget that the Punisher gets no damage bonus, so it really doesn't matter what weapons you fit... plus ACs are much easier to fit, and the Punisher's large grid leaves you with a truly flexible ship.
I still use a Rifter myself though.
ShhhHHH! Everyone be using autocannons instead of lasers. But yeah, never fly my maller without medium autocannons. Never smack a nos vexor without my small autocannons =)
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2006.01.29 07:15:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Sentinel Roqeze Let's not forget that the Punisher gets no damage bonus, so it really doesn't matter what weapons you fit...
Please stop talking rubbish. The reason most Amarr ships don't get a damage bonus is because lasers have better base stats then other weapons. You normally need 4 levels of ship bonuses for other guns to match the DPS of lasers.
I don't think you trust, in, my, self-righteous suicide. |
Sentinel Roqeze
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Posted - 2006.01.29 07:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: theRaptor Please stop talking rubbish. The reason most Amarr ships don't get a damage bonus is because lasers have better base stats then other weapons. You normally need 4 levels of ship bonuses for other guns to match the DPS of lasers.
Yes, it's true that lasers provide a better DPS. However, it's also true that lasers are restricted to the two racial damage types, take more grid and CPU to fit, and require cap to fire. Anything that saves cap and grid is going to help you tank, and for me the Punisher is more a tank frig than a damage dealer.
We each have our own individual techniques, styles and ideas - I don't pretend that my own viewpoint is "the right way"... I'm simply pointing out the alternatives.
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