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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1282
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why has alchemy been exempted when you could have solved this by changing the units of output for alchemy? The biggest market for using these is going to be lowsec reaction chains which have huge usage of alchemy. Was it simply because someone could not figure out how to change 1 to 200? Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1282
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 15:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Aryth wrote:Why has alchemy been exempted when you could have solved this by changing the units of output for alchemy? The biggest market for using these is going to be lowsec reaction chains which have huge usage of alchemy. Was it simply because someone could not figure out how to change 1 to 200? No, the version that is coming out in Rubicon is intended to be a very basic version. Thus, we didn't want it to have too wide application. We'll probably add a couple of new versions in the point release, one of which *could* go for alchemy.
Alrighty. It would be nice if an entire segment of the POS industry is not immune to siphons. This has an interesting market dynamic coming if everyone is impacted. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1285
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah, the cost isn't balanced at all. These things will pay for itself (including waste) in the time a regular tower owner sleeps. It is one thing if a tower owner can reasonably find it in the time that it might equate to a loss for the placer greater than the profit gained. It is quite another if you can just mass spray them cross entire portions of EVE and be virtually assured of payback.
The cost should not be balanced at a few hours and probably should be set at at least 12-18 hours. Is that really reasonable to require every tower owner to check their tower 3 times a day? This is exactly why skill queues were implemented and that was far less of a burden.
Balance the cost much higher. 10m that gets returned in just 2-5 hours is silly and not remotely balanced and is only going to mean mass spraying across EVE and end up as spam more than interaction.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1286
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Two step wrote:Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about? Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature. Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not?
No, it appears from his cryptically worded statement that CCP will actually be FAKING the API data to make it appear all is normal. You could read his post both ways but our consensus is he means CCP is intending to supply fake data through the API. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1286
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.
Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.
This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1286
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zloco Crendraven wrote:Aryth wrote:I do love to call the ball and then smug later about being right. So let me explain how this plays out to you.
Everyone will transfer valuable moons to closer holders who are then taxed or rent increased to offset this. So null blocs won't be impacted that rent or that have good C&C. However, this also means everyone is going to enter into doughnut pacts and you are going to watch null blue up and stagnate even more so than it is.
This is a terribly flawed design. We withheld judgement when this was first released thinking you would do this one right and it was an interesting mechanic and had the possibility for some fun interactions. You got it wrong on balance with multiple siphons and costs. Can't be more blue than it is now :D And probably renters won't rent moons because people like me will suck their POSs 24/7 and they wont't be able to do anything about it. Big entities will have to live in the area around POSs if they won't most of the moon goo from now on. If they won't live around, than no moon goo :DDD
It can get quite a bit more blue than it is now.
Renters don't have a choice on what they rent. They are renters they pay what you tell them to pay. If they aren't getting anything from the moon that isn't our issue we still get paid. They can make it up with more ratting for all we care. Renters by their very definition live in system and will see siphons within minutes/hours typically.
CCP has steadily been encouraging renters more and more with their recent changes. So much so that I was finally able to win the argument internally and get renters. It is very quickly becoming about null vs CCP and when that is truly the mindset in null the response will be everyone squat on their rental kingdoms and lets milk this until the game changes for bottom up income. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1286
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.
We are the ones that are going to be spamming these across regions. While choking off the supply that we happen to sit on the lions share of. You can think this is about us, but I would point to our track record of doing what is best for EVE. This is far more about the imbalance of the design. The design is flawed on cost vs reward to a huge degree.
I would rather see 50m a siphon but 10 is absurdly low. It is all about hours to earnback. That should be balanced in such a way that the defender and attacker have a reasonable chance of damaging each other. ISK wise. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1287
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 16:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jeanne Hilanen wrote:Weaselior wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote: With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?
Oh... right...
Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower. What a bunch of bullshit. it takes less than a minute to dscan check a system. If you have people actually LIVING in a system, you can very quickly spot these
Not before they have been profitable in the middle of a timezone you sleep in.
Most corporations (the unit of measurement typically owning a system) are generally strong in a single timezone. I have no issue with requiring people to live in their space as we have been the biggest champions of that. Requiring them to check their towers 3x a day is dumb as hell though. EVE is enough of a job as it is. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1288
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Aryth wrote:I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does. Indeed, and because of this I'm surprised that you've failed to see the potential for your alliance. As you say, your alliance will be much better placed to deal with the consequences than your competitors, while you also have a playerbase with the numbers and penchant for griefing that will be able to make full use of this module in hostile space. The siphon meshes perfectly with Goons' public philosophy. But remember, you don't need to check every POS, just use dscan. Hell, probes are probably even easier.
You are assuming I haven't see how well it helps us. We have known for quite some time our endgame in T2. This only accelerates it and probably lines our pockets more than anyone's in EVE by far. We control most of the r64s and by extension the T2 market.
I am telling CCP in good faith this is not balanced. This design is bad, if you go down this path it is bad for EVE. It doesn't mean it is bad for our wallet. The very nature of this change as presented pretty much assures we make more ISK because the people that do manage to control their goo will profit greatly. That will be us.
This will become a mass manip tool not some individual guerrilla mechanic. You made things so cheap you don't even need to GET the goo, just spam and laugh as huge portions of supply dies.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1292
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 17:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jeanne Hilanen wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Alright:
this is a MASSIVE pain in the arse for corporations that do not span multiple timezones. everyone who is in a non-english speaking corporation has some serious organisation to do to get towers watched. Not cool. This is manageable for us (100% german corp) since we also speak english and can easily coordinate with other english speaking groups. The russians that often don't really speak english have a problem. a big one.
instead of introducing some interesting timer mechanic that could actually lead to some fights you made something that is going to be a massive pain in the arse for people in leadership positions. typical :CCP:
i was excited for this, mainly because i really hoped that it could lead to some interesting small scale pvp actions. but with the current implementation there is absolutely NO reason to interact with these things with anything that is not a T2 industrial with a covert ops cloak or a POS gun.
And this is a bad thing because? Why should your towers be able to extract in complete safety in all timezones?
No one is saying towers should extract safely. At least not that I have seen. They are saying that siphons are so cheap that there is no meaning to losing one or spamming them and by extension being profitable to do while an owner sleeps. I can tell you that we would spam 100's or 1000's of these without thinking about it. That is the problem, the ISK/reward isn't balanced. Change that and maybe not allow multiples per tower and all is well.
But hey, if you guys thought SBU spam by us was bad, wait until you see this. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1296
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 18:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:IrJosy wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Vatek wrote: Renters will pay us x amount of isk per month to mine specific R64 moons in their rented space, they are then responsible for dealing with siphons on their towers. If they end up losing money because their moons are being siphoned heavily, that's their problem.
so you are saying that 0.0 will have to be populated to be profitable? and this is somehow a bad thing? i think its great... you guys can be like the mob providing protection against actual pos attacks for a montly fee. its a win win for everyone involved... space gets filled people make isk and i get to kill people ratting. dont see the problem really. How many New York Times articles have brought new players to the game with the headline: "Eve Online: An online spaceship game where you pay space protection money to live in a world completely devoid of conflict" ? how will this be devoid of conflict? from my perspective it will increase the conflics. i wonder what would happen if you found out that one of your allies are the ones who are using thier alts to steel your moon mins... that could lead to some epic drama and that is where conflict drivers come from... human interaction. granted that sov needs to be reworked much like they did with FW...
Except not. This is just AWOXing in another form and has been a drama free mechanic in null for years now. Boot, reimburse, move on.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1297
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
I would point out that no other group in EVE has the track record we do at promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment.
i would also point out that I was the player applauding CCP for their handling of Forex even when that personally cost me trillions. We championed the bottom up income, we championed the tech nerf.
But hey ignore the track record of calling the ball and then cracking it out of the park if you like because you believe it is because we are spinning, or covering our own interests.
Our track record of calling CCP out when it is warranted speaks for itself. We also support siphons as a concept just not at this level of balance because we know what we will do with it. You can choose to believe this is the truth or not but time will demonstrate if what I am saying is true and you can come back and reference this post.
However, if I were you guys, I would be in Jita right now buying up some stuff.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1297
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 19:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:I would point out that no other group in EVE has the track record we do at promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment.
i would also point out that I was the player applauding CCP for their handling of Forex even when that personally cost me trillions. We championed the bottom up income, we championed the tech nerf.
But hey ignore the track record of calling the ball and then cracking it out of the park if you like because you believe it is because we are spinning, or covering our own interests.
Our track record of calling CCP out when it is warranted speaks for itself. We also support siphons as a concept just not at this level of balance because we know what we will do with it. You can choose to believe this is the truth or not but time will demonstrate if what I am saying is true and you can come back and reference this post.
However, if I were you guys, I would be in Jita right now buying up some stuff.
Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."?
I guess you missed the part where we reported it, limited the abuse to a single small period, and then supported their action to take it all away? Yeah, silly things like pesky facts. We even had a pretty blog!
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1298
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Weaselior wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."? we told them, on these very forums, it was going to end hilariously badly ccp didn't listen aryth proceeded to demonstrate it ending hilariously badly I think the goons by and large have done a huge amount of good for the game catching issues like this. However, claims that in response you will spam thousands of these seems a bit silly to me, sorry. You simply aren't going to find pilots willing to devote the time necessary every day to actually do an activity like that effectively. You need to check these things every, single, day... to collect the goods so that they will continue to siphon. All jokes aside, I really do think most of your pilots will decide they have better things to do after a few days of that.
I want to quote this for later. You don't need to collect anything.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1298
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Aryth wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Weaselior wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money. You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you? Oh no. You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK.. How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."? we told them, on these very forums, it was going to end hilariously badly ccp didn't listen aryth proceeded to demonstrate it ending hilariously badly I think the goons by and large have done a huge amount of good for the game catching issues like this. However, claims that in response you will spam thousands of these seems a bit silly to me, sorry. You simply aren't going to find pilots willing to devote the time necessary every day to actually do an activity like that effectively. You need to check these things every, single, day... to collect the goods so that they will continue to siphon. All jokes aside, I really do think most of your pilots will decide they have better things to do after a few days of that. I want to quote this for later. You don't need to collect anything. So even with full they keep siphoning? Seriously, do you have a source for that? Because if you do, that's a pretty simple thing to change.
You drop 3 and nuke the entire output. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1298
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:gascanu wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:So even with full they keep siphoning? Seriously, do you have a source for that? Because if you do, that's a pretty simple thing to change. no,wtf ppl, read the damn blog Quote: The Small Mobile Siphon Unit can steal 60 units of raw material or 25 units of processed material. It has a capacity of 1200 m-¦. If it is full, it stops stealing. Thanks, I thought I saw that somewhere. Yes, I was at work and to lazy to recheck the blog. Again, many thanks. So, I'm correct and these are virtually useless as a "fire and forget" grief tool. To keep siphoning a crew would have to empty a siphon every 20 hours (raw materials) or every 48 hours (processed materials). This is assuming someone hasn't popped it for giggles (let alone the POS owner or his friends) in the few minutes it takes to blow one up (with no negative effects). Still not seeing this working as an effective grief tool, or even as an effective market manipulation device.
The key is what I pointed out in previous posts. Multiple siphons = bad
I understand why they included it to prevent baffling concepts but it also means you have the ability to nuke all output in general and have multiple siphons "chained". This is essentially the core feature that allows mass griefing.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1298
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 20:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
xttz wrote:Tiye Q wrote:xttz wrote:It should be a bit of a red flag when CCP come up with the cheapest griefing tool in EVE for years, and GoonSwarm are the ones saying "hang on that's a bit much".
What exactly do you lot think this is going to do to the Tech 2 market when virtually no one is getting moon materials without interruption? We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?
The Tech 2 materials market has just been handed back to big alliances. We're going to grief the **** out of everyone if this remains unchanged, and make bank while doing so. CFC space is not behind some impregnable wall. Anyone can get into CFC systems at anytime, and with the new interceptor changes, people will be able to get in much easier. CFC/GSF will not be able to grief EVE with this feature. In fact the opposite will occur. Random entities will start to grief every CFC/GSF system, and I'm not talking about renter systems. You're absolutely right. There's no way our thousands of players and trillions of ISK will allow us to grief entire swathes of space alongside manipulating the T2 materials market for further gain. I mean it's not like we've ever made a fortune from broken game mechanics like this before, is it?
See, when you just spell it out that way, it is far less funny later. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1298
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Weaselior wrote:Pinky Hops wrote: IF you siphon every valuable moon in a region, AND it goes unnoticed...maybe you got ahead? somehow?
i'd say "you'll see how" but you probably won't, you'll just assume the prices were supposed to do that the prices will definitely drop, mostly because the giant carebear alliances who supply 90%+ of the moon goo (of which goonswarm is one example) will see their operations crumble. this will make it more worth it to moon mine in general, but people will have to do it carefully to make a good profit, not just plant a fuckload of moon mining ops and nearly forget about them....like goonswarm.....
So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop.
This is some MD level analysis right here. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1299
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote:Querns wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote:Aryth wrote:So I am trying to follow your logic. Siphons that destroy materials will cause prices to drop. The siphons do not destroy minerals. They are freely lootable. Minerals will only be destroyed if someone is stupid enough to shoot one without taking the minerals out first. Did you miss the part where the siphons explicitly destroy 20% of what they steal Yes! Shame on me.
Scene: There is an obelisk, it is black, you have fur. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1304
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 21:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zappity wrote:A comment on the goon renter plans.
The plan to distribute the valuable moons to the renters and make it their problem seems like a knee-jerk reaction which is surprising. The value of moons in the presence of these new units will be devalued relative to current and I doubt that renters will pay 'whatever you tell them', at least after a couple of months have passed.
Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time.
Say what. You really have no idea how renters work do you? Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1304
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:mynnna wrote: Contrary to all the whining from the poors about how moons are some hugely valuable and completely AFK wealth generator, they are in fact a wealth generator that would make a newbie in highsec laugh. A moon generates 100 units per hour. Right now, Dysprosium is the most valuable mineral in the game, at about 50k per unit. Go ahead, do the math on the hourly income, then calculate 60% of that. I'll wait. When you find that number, that's your take for dropping one.
Basically, I'm saying you ain't getting rich on these, kid.
yes one moon is worth not that much but many are... and from what i understand you guys have 100's of moon mining poses. so it does add up. though not as much as it used to be. 1. from what i understand you will tsf most of the moon poses to renters and leaving the defence in thier hands but increasing thier rent to offset. (a win win in your eyes) 2. I personally plan on syphoning your renters poses as i am making an assumption not all of them will protect thier poses. something goons said are fine with aslong as the bills are paid. 3. you guys stated that you will be setting up shyphon units in non cfc space to reduce output by 20% 4. you also said you have massive holding of said moon minerals and will be selling them for a healthy profit 5. i plan on slight margin trading that value from stolen pos mins thus taking advanatge of your plan and a healthy income. 6. personally i already have enough isk to sustain myself but will be more then happy to "chew the fat" and harass renters doing it. I mean renters can be babies and if they start loosing lots of isk they will want you guys to come and protect them... towhich you guys admit are reliant on renter income to continue your reinbursement policy. its going to be interesting how long the goon/renter dynamic lasts for before goons rage and purge said renters. Lather rinse repeat anyone? 7. if ccp just removed the 20% loss of units from the shyphon mechanic your plans would be eliminated.
So you don't disagree with anything we have said. Great, now let me help you make the next leap of logic.
You could just skip all that and buy the r64s in Jita now and profit a lot more!
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1307
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 22:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:I guess I'll just spam the hell out of them and see what happens/how much money I'll get/how much tears I'll get.
Happy times for everyone but the one who gets his stuff stolen.
Unless those people stockpile! Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1309
|
Posted - 2013.10.17 23:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
See, we are the Babe Ruth of EVE Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1326
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:
a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%
b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.
Let me know what you think.
I think you don't understand the nature of the imbalance. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1326
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 13:43:00 -
[25] - Quote
Lallante wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:Lallante wrote:Helicity Boson wrote:ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.
This is a peculiar thread indeed. Sorry but goons are the single largest holder of high end moons. This is 100% about them protecting their income. If you don't realize they have the people, budget, time and Will to siphon every moon they don't personally own, just for lulz, you are sorely underestimating them. So what? If they do that they deserve the rewards. The original Eve goons (that cared about lulz and tears) would have embraced this idea with open arms. The current, greedy bloated carebear fallacy that calls itself goonswarm being opposed to it just shows how completely ideologically bankrupt they've become.
I am going to cherish this post and use it for internal trolling. I thank you sir. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1329
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 15:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
I will summerize for skimmers.
CCP: These could be used for griefing so we should make some changes.
*Makes them only able to be used for griefing if you are huge and organized.....
GG CCP Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1335
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 16:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
xttz wrote:If this is intended to drive conflict and have more players interacting, then people need to be fighting over siphons. As they stand they're nothing but a griefing tool that people can profit from if they can be bothered to. Players can be encouraged to interact like so:
- Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
- When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
- A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
- The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.
The net effect of which is: 1) Siphon owners who are very proactive about their theft can steal the entire output of a tower, but are more likely to be discovered. 2) Siphon owners get diminishing returns by waiting, encouraging them to empty more often. This brings more opportunities to interdict them, and therefore more chances for PVP. If they wait too long, the starbase owner gets everything back without penalty. 3) Siphons cannot be spammed merciessly, resulting in situations where small reaction corps have to clear 50+ structures from their towers at a time.
This is the most elegant solution I have seen. It prevents greifing at scale, encourages individual actors, rewards active partipation, and still have the nice market impact effects for that dynamic.
They are probably still too cheap and too small in m3, but this eliminates the really nasty problems.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1348
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Posted - 2013.11.02 13:22:00 -
[28] - Quote
Some good changes to siphons on SISI now. Effectively a price increase for those that want to use them in large amounts to destroy or greatly inhibit supply.
They are bigger now though still tiny. However, after seeing the requirements we are quite pleased.
Some dev deserves a big sloppy kiss.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
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