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Capital ships and their tanks - Design issues?

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Shadowsword	Posted - 2006.02.04 22:25:00 - [1] I was toying with the idea of owning a Carrier sometime in the future, and wanted to see how well they could tank, so I opened Quickfit, and here's the result: For an Archon, with all relevant skills at lv4 (so 20% resists bonus from the Amarr carrier skill, and a 24 seconds cycle for capital repairers) Dual capital armor repairers, 3 T2 active hardeners, 1 adaptative nano membrane II, cap power relay, 4 cap rechargers II. With that fit, all resistances are well above 75%, and you can sutain the tank for about 6 minutes. How well does it tank? About 3400 base DPS, and that's why I think this thread is needed. In a fleet battle, 3400 DPS isn't much. That's about 5 BS worth of firepower. Given the low number of hit points carriers have, for capital ships, 10 BS would destroy an Archon or Chimera in 35-40 seconds, and that would be even faster for a Nidhoggur or a Thanatos. Given the money investment represented by a Carrier (250-300 millions of insurance, 300-350 millions worth of fighters, 100-150 millions of modules, which gives 650 to 800 millions put to risk, against a 60 milions worth of insurance+T2 modules for a fleet BS), their relative fragility and pretty good firepower, in large engagments carriers are going to be called primary and blow up before that can even lock a battleship and have their fighters come half-way to their target. So, you have a ship that, because of jump drive mechanics, isn't usefull for mobile, small gang warfare, and yet that can't survive long enough to be usefull as ship of the line. Dreadnoughts also have the same problem, but can use siege modules to change that. The solution, imho, would be to decrease a lot the cycle time of capital tanking modules, while keeping their cap use per second constant... That, or make carriers able to use jumpgates, so they could be used as small gang flagships.
Chade Malloy	Posted - 2006.02.04 23:42:00 - [2] Agreed, from all (combat) capital ships, carriers are the easiest to kill in a fleet fight. Dreads have their siege mode, titans have doomsday and motherships can field a lot more fighters and have better cap & HP. However, Carriers are kinda cheap compared to the other c-ships. In a fleet fight, i would keep them behind the lines (safespot) with almost all their fighters attached to the people at the front, however in smaller skirmishes (4-8 mixed fleet) they would pretty much own everything with their fighters. For all-out fleetbattle (which isnt an option atm due to horrible lag) i would stick with dreads. Originally by: Oveur Jesus Christ. The Freighter ate the Stargate god and the Dreadnought didn't!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.02.04 23:47:00 - [3] carries should be sitting cloaked at a SS with their drones pre-assigned to a gang member. Only when the fight is over should they decloak and begin repairing people. the moment you take one of these into the middle of a fleet fight is the moment you get called primary and killed.
Stratosfear	Posted - 2006.02.04 23:52:00 - [4] Originally by: Sarmaul carries should be sitting cloaked at a SS with their drones pre-assigned to a gang member. Only when the fight is over should they decloak and begin repairing people. the moment you take one of these into the middle of a fleet fight is the moment you get called primary and killed. Roger that. The only exception is when you have 3 of these and they can boost one another. Then they are tough to *****.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.02.05 00:19:00 - [5] your right they cant tank 10 decent BS shooting them at once. well not unless you use expensive faction mods but why does a carrier need to be in the middle of thet fight anyways? since it can assign its drones to anyone else in the fleet. sit him at a SS and get ur guys to warp out to him when damaged. by the time they reallign to warp back into the fight they got full armor/shields/cap.
Jim Steele	Posted - 2006.02.05 00:26:00 - [6] How about two archons armour transfering each other? anyway a carrier isnt supposed to run around instapwning fleets its a support ship. A base in hostile territory. Try doing the math for a dreadnaught in siege mode, the results may be more favorable. Author of "The Apoc Guide"
Valea Silpha	Posted - 2006.02.05 00:31:00 - [7] Man you say 3400DPS like its something insignificant. For a support ship, taking fire at all is pretty unlikely so 3400 DPS is just fine.
theRaptor	Posted - 2006.02.05 01:08:00 - [8] Originally by: Valea Silpha Man you say 3400DPS like its something insignificant. For a support ship, taking fire at all is pretty unlikely so 3400 DPS is just fine. Bingo. If you only have one carrier it should be sitting at a safe spot acting as a hosptital ship. Multiple carriers repping each other sounds nice until you realise that unlike motherships, carriers are vulnerable to ew. I don't think you trust, in, my, self-righteous suicide.
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.02.05 01:10:00 - [9] Edited by: KilROCK on 05/02/2006 01:11:01 I wonder, If someone uses your fighters to kill something, Does it includes the Carrier on the killmail since the fighters belong to it? Or they stay assigned to the person controlled them and thus the pilot controlling them gets on the killmail? But yea... 3400 DPS lol, That's somewhat 'decent'. Fit a couple of nos in highslot, and even if you're on the field, something tries to tackle you and you can safly 'nos the hell' out of them and get out.. Hail Ammo - Remove Speed penality!
Selim	Posted - 2006.02.05 01:18:00 - [10] Speaking of nos... are Xlarge nosferatus on the agenda?

Shayla Sh'inlux	Posted - 2006.02.05 01:20:00 - [11] Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 05/02/2006 01:22:35 1 carrier + gear + drones + insurance = 1000m + 250m + 250m + 250m = 1.75b 1 tier + t2 gear + insurance = 100m + 60m + 30m = 190m 10 battleship = 1,9b Problem? Seriously, these things can take massive amounts of damage and 45 seconds in a fleet battle is actually quite long. By the time 45 seconds have passed, the enemy fleet has lost 5-6 battleships and the carrier simply warps out while its fighters remain damaging the enemy. They're support ships. Ie, you take a fleet with you so you have something to support. If you can't kill a carrier easy with a bunch of battleships something is wrong. Not the other way around.
Alan Bell	Posted - 2006.02.05 01:47:00 - [12] does quickfit have carriers alrdy? http://coldfusion.online-guild.com
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.02.05 02:10:00 - [13] Originally by: Alan Bell does quickfit have carriers alrdy? Yes. Hail Ammo - Remove Speed penality!
Lightof God	Posted - 2006.02.05 02:12:00 - [14] Carriers were originally supposed to not need a jump drive and be gate capable. So they would be more of a fast reaction ship but that got scrapped somewhere along the way.
St Dragon	Posted - 2006.02.05 03:12:00 - [15] Ok Dreads Titans and motherships can tank well but the carrier cant. Well forgetting 3600 DPS is pretty good already dont forget that carriers are essentially Cheap capital ships enabling small corps to get a capital ship true its not the best but it is good at what it does. Top tip with these if i understand how they work, Assign your fighters to your groupe leaders in the fleet and sit at a safespot let the groupe leaders use them to do there magic and when they get really damaged warp them back for repairs then return to your friends. Oh quick question i hear that motherships can produce new fighters if they had the minerals on bourd nad a bpo is that true if so its a bit over the top lol. ----------------------------------------------- "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Menelak Faf	Posted - 2006.02.05 04:25:00 - [16] Originally by: KilROCK Edited by: KilROCK on 05/02/2006 01:11:01 I wonder, If someone uses your fighters to kill something, Does it includes the Carrier on the killmail since the fighters belong to it? Yes, or atleast I'm pretty sure Iceblock's fighters stole my killmail earlier. ____ Where are all of the cruiser sized faction mods, CCP?
Tido Maliyu	Posted - 2006.02.05 04:45:00 - [17] On the test server we had between 5-10 ravens firing at an archon and we couldn't break it's tank, while we were getting pwnd incredibly fast by it's drones. My raven with non-stop boster and 2 boost amp's couldn't keep it's drones from annihilating it in half a minute. I don't think we were even close to breaking it... -------------------------- Draximus Cane: wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I'
theRaptor	Posted - 2006.02.05 05:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Tido Maliyu On the test server we had between 5-10 ravens firing at an archon and we couldn't break it's tank, while we were getting pwnd incredibly fast by it's drones. My raven with non-stop boster and 2 boost amp's couldn't keep it's drones from annihilating it in half a minute. I don't think we were even close to breaking it... Against a Dev character with 300million SP? BoB has fought Aurora carriers and real player carriers. Aurora carriers are damn good tanks and pwn BS with their fighters, player carriers are a joke and he had HAC's that were tanking the fighters. Just because some max skilled character with all faction items can make a good tank doesn't mean the average player is going to be any where near as good. I would say that unless you have about ten million SP in mechanics and engineering your carrier should never be on the front line. I don't think you trust, in, my, self-righteous suicide.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.02.05 05:15:00 - [19] I wish it took 3400DPS to take me down, while giving me the firepower to incinerate a BS in seconds, and seeral cruisers before I could lock another one... Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Golan Trevize	Posted - 2006.02.05 07:11:00 - [20] Edited by: Golan Trevize on 05/02/2006 07:14:25 Originally by: Shadowsword I was toying with the idea of owning a Carrier sometime in the future, and wanted to see how well they could tank, so I opened Quickfit, and here's the result: For an Archon, with all relevant skills at lv4 (so 20% resists bonus from the Amarr carrier skill, and a 24 seconds cycle for capital repairers) Dual capital armor repairers, 3 T2 active hardeners, 1 adaptative nano membrane II, cap power relay, 4 cap rechargers II. With that fit, all resistances are well above 75%, and you can sutain the tank for about 6 minutes. How well does it tank? About 3400 base DPS, and that's why I think this thread is needed. In a fleet battle, 3400 DPS isn't much. That's about 5 BS worth of firepower. Given the low number of hit points carriers have, for capital ships, 10 BS would destroy an Archon or Chimera in 35-40 seconds, and that would be even faster for a Nidhoggur or a Thanatos. Given the money investment represented by a Carrier (250-300 millions of insurance, 300-350 millions worth of fighters, 100-150 millions of modules, which gives 650 to 800 millions put to risk, against a 60 milions worth of insurance+T2 modules for a fleet BS), their relative fragility and pretty good firepower, in large engagments carriers are going to be called primary and blow up before that can even lock a battleship and have their fighters come half-way to their target. So, you have a ship that, because of jump drive mechanics, isn't usefull for mobile, small gang warfare, and yet that can't survive long enough to be usefull as ship of the line. Dreadnoughts also have the same problem, but can use siege modules to change that. The solution, imho, would be to decrease a lot the cycle time of capital tanking modules, while keeping their cap use per second constant... That, or make carriers able to use jumpgates, so they could be used as small gang flagships. You or quickfit is very wrong... I use a setup very similiar to that and i can sustain that the 2 reppers for at least 30 minutes( repped 1,3 mill armor or so) , and i tanked a Naglfar in siegemode (low skilled though) I wouldent hesitate a second to engage 10 battleships head on. Golan Trevize. The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.

KilROCK	Posted - 2006.02.05 07:18:00 - [21] Armored Warfare link - Damage control. Absolutly NEEDED on any Dual capital rep Carrier. If you can get a damnation to use all 3 Armored warfare links, You'll tank like hell. Hail Ammo - Remove Speed penality!
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2006.02.05 07:36:00 - [22] What happens to the fighters when the ship they've been loaned to gets destroyed? I would think having the tackle frigates and interceptors lead your fighters in would be most useful, due to their fast lock time, but it depends on what happens once they pop. Harry Voyager ____________________ I'm not an idiot; I just play one on the forums.
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.02.05 07:39:00 - [23] Originally by: Harry Voyager What happens to the fighters when the ship they've been loaned to gets destroyed? Logical thing would be... Fighters control returning to Carrier.. And like Any drones... When they lose a target, They go Berserker on anything close by.. (I'm guessing they should be returning to the carrier) Hail Ammo - Remove Speed penality!
Shadowsword	Posted - 2006.02.05 09:57:00 - [24] Most of you are saying that carriers should sit in a safe spot. Doesn't that suddenly make the Thanatos completely overpowered compared to the others? 3400 DPS is a lot, until you put things into perspective. For a small of medium gang, sure, it tanks fine, but when you have 40 BS fitted for fleet battle firing at you, you won't hold even 15 seconds. Given the sluggishness of capital ships, you may not even have time to align for warp. Tido Maliyu, how was fitted that carrier you fought? If it had core-X type hardeners and the like, then it may have hold out against 10 ravens (that do delayed damage, which give time to the carrier to lock some BS and start moving it's fighters), but you can't just say "Carriers tank fine if you put 1 billion worth of tanking modules"...
Shadowsword	Posted - 2006.02.05 10:08:00 - [25] Originally by: Golan Trevize Edited by: Golan Trevize on 05/02/2006 07:14:25 You or quickfit is very wrong... I use a setup very similiar to that and i can sustain that the 2 reppers for at least 30 minutes( repped 1,3 mill armor or so) I was wrong. I wanted to see if it could sustain the tank indefinitely, and I manually removed at least 40% of cap at the beginning, to see the part of the recharge rate that interested me, and when it dropped below 25% cap I stopped the simulation. When I looked at the time stamp I simply forgot that it wasn't accurate. I can sustain the tank for 13 minutes. If you can do it for 30 minutes, isn't that due to a tanking implant? A lower level in the capital repair system skill? I stand corrected, but my grip isn't with the sustainability of it's tank, it's that carreirs, as they are now, simply are too fragile for front-line use.
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.02.05 10:13:00 - [26] Quote: but when you have 40 BS fitted for fleet battle firing at you, you won't hold even 15 seconds. Given the sluggishness of capital ships, you may not even have time to align for warp. What kind of imbecile isn't aligned in a fleet fight. You probably. Read my post. Get armored warfare at 5. Get Armored warfare specialist running and the gang module to reduce cap usage. I think you're not ready to fly a carrier nor have the balls to take it to the front line anyways. So same yourself the trouble and give me that archon. Hail Ammo - Remove Speed penality!
M3ta7h3ad	Posted - 2006.02.05 10:21:00 - [27] Originally by: Shadowsword you can't just say "Carriers tank fine if you put 1 billion worth of tanking modules"... Well you wouldnt get a carrier and fit it out with civilian shield boosters would you. ----- Memorable Quotes <Jarltan Dimtras> OH MY GOD MY GF IS A DUDE
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.02.05 10:25:00 - [28] Highslots: 3x TS/DB (any 30km and better) nosses. 1x Remote armor repairer 1x Armored warfare - damage control link Med slots: 4x Cap II or better. Low slots: 2x Capital armor repairer 3x 64% Armor hardener 1x 28% Energized Adaptive nano 1x TS/DB Capacitor Power relay This is how i'd fit my archon. If you can't afford this, Don't fly a carrier. If you can afford to lose a t2 fitted Archon, Then. Go Crazy and fit it poorly. Hail Ammo - Remove Speed penality!
theRaptor	Posted - 2006.02.05 10:48:00 - [29] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia I wish it took 3400DPS to take me down, while giving me the firepower to incinerate a BS in seconds, and seeral cruisers before I could lock another one... Carriers do not have the firepower to incinerate a BS in seconds. Motherships (with max skill pilots) have enough firepower to incinerate a non-aligned BS before it can warp. Carriers are not motherships. The player one BoB fought the other night was having its fighters tanked by HAC's. When it wasn't jammed. I don't think you trust, in, my, self-righteous suicide.
Drakhis	Posted - 2006.02.05 11:18:00 - [30] Fighters are Pocket BS's in every intent and purposes same base shield and armor resists as any teir 1 ship and about the same shield armor and structure as a BC with enough firepower to rival most HAC's there rediculous any BS that can tank 2 fighters is a god in my eyes But yes agreed Carriers should sit in a SS with its fighters assigned to a BS for engagement... the fighters are not going to be called primary just for the fact that any Large gun trying to track them is going to have one hell of a effing day hitting them. people are going to keep people as primaries allowing them to awrp to your carriers SS get repaird and arp back into the fray. Its what carriers are for a mobbile command center with a small gang of pocket BS's take out the carrier take out the support. So any carrier pilot who is retarded enough to sit in the middle of a fleet engagement deserves to be called primary and get pwned to **** The ability to perceive or think differently is more important than the knowledge gained.



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