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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2006.02.04 22:25:00 -
[1]
I was toying with the idea of owning a Carrier sometime in the future, and wanted to see how well they could tank, so I opened Quickfit, and here's the result:
For an Archon, with all relevant skills at lv4 (so 20% resists bonus from the Amarr carrier skill, and a 24 seconds cycle for capital repairers)
Dual capital armor repairers, 3 T2 active hardeners, 1 adaptative nano membrane II, cap power relay, 4 cap rechargers II.
With that fit, all resistances are well above 75%, and you can sutain the tank for about 6 minutes.
How well does it tank? About 3400 base DPS, and that's why I think this thread is needed. In a fleet battle, 3400 DPS isn't much. That's about 5 BS worth of firepower. Given the low number of hit points carriers have, for capital ships, 10 BS would destroy an Archon or Chimera in 35-40 seconds, and that would be even faster for a Nidhoggur or a Thanatos.
Given the money investment represented by a Carrier (250-300 millions of insurance, 300-350 millions worth of fighters, 100-150 millions of modules, which gives 650 to 800 millions put to risk, against a 60 milions worth of insurance+T2 modules for a fleet BS), their relative fragility and pretty good firepower, in large engagments carriers are going to be called primary and blow up before that can even lock a battleship and have their fighters come half-way to their target.
So, you have a ship that, because of jump drive mechanics, isn't usefull for mobile, small gang warfare, and yet that can't survive long enough to be usefull as ship of the line. Dreadnoughts also have the same problem, but can use siege modules to change that.
The solution, imho, would be to decrease a lot the cycle time of capital tanking modules, while keeping their cap use per second constant... That, or make carriers able to use jumpgates, so they could be used as small gang flagships.
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Chade Malloy
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Posted - 2006.02.04 23:42:00 -
[2]
Agreed, from all (combat) capital ships, carriers are the easiest to kill in a fleet fight. Dreads have their siege mode, titans have doomsday and motherships can field a lot more fighters and have better cap & HP.
However, Carriers are kinda *cheap* compared to the other c-ships. In a fleet fight, i would keep them behind the lines (safespot) with almost all their fighters attached to the people at the front, however in smaller skirmishes (4-8 mixed fleet) they would pretty much own everything with their fighters.
For all-out fleetbattle (which isnt an option atm due to horrible lag) i would stick with dreads.
 Originally by: Oveur
Jesus Christ. The Freighter ate the Stargate god and the Dreadnought didn't!
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.02.04 23:47:00 -
[3]
carries should be sitting cloaked at a SS with their drones pre-assigned to a gang member. Only when the fight is over should they decloak and begin repairing people.
the moment you take one of these into the middle of a fleet fight is the moment you get called primary and killed.
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Stratosfear
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Posted - 2006.02.04 23:52:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Sarmaul
carries should be sitting cloaked at a SS with their drones pre-assigned to a gang member. Only when the fight is over should they decloak and begin repairing people.
the moment you take one of these into the middle of a fleet fight is the moment you get called primary and killed.
Roger that.
The only exception is when you have 3 of these and they can boost one another. Then they are tough to *****.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 00:19:00 -
[5]
your right they cant tank 10 decent BS shooting them at once. well not unless you use expensive faction mods
but why does a carrier need to be in the middle of thet fight anyways? since it can assign its drones to anyone else in the fleet. sit him at a SS and get ur guys to warp out to him when damaged. by the time they reallign to warp back into the fight they got full armor/shields/cap.
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Jim Steele
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Posted - 2006.02.05 00:26:00 -
[6]
How about two archons armour transfering each other?
anyway a carrier isnt supposed to run around instapwning fleets its a support ship. A base in hostile territory.
Try doing the math for a dreadnaught in siege mode, the results may be more favorable.
Author of "The Apoc Guide" |
Valea Silpha
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Posted - 2006.02.05 00:31:00 -
[7]
Man you say 3400DPS like its something insignificant. For a support ship, taking fire at all is pretty unlikely so 3400 DPS is just fine.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2006.02.05 01:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Valea Silpha
Man you say 3400DPS like its something insignificant. For a support ship, taking fire at all is pretty unlikely so 3400 DPS is just fine.
Bingo. If you only have one carrier it should be sitting at a safe spot acting as a hosptital ship. Multiple carriers repping each other sounds nice until you realise that unlike motherships, carriers are vulnerable to ew.
I don't think you trust, in, my, self-righteous suicide. |
KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.02.05 01:10:00 -
[9]
Edited by: KilROCK on 05/02/2006 01:11:01
I wonder, If someone uses your fighters to kill something, Does it includes the Carrier on the killmail since the fighters belong to it?
Or they stay assigned to the person controlled them and thus the pilot controlling them gets on the killmail?
But yea... 3400 DPS lol, That's somewhat 'decent'. Fit a couple of nos in highslot, and even if you're on the field, something tries to tackle you and you can safly 'nos the hell' out of them and get out..
Hail Ammo - Remove Speed penality!
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Selim
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Posted - 2006.02.05 01:18:00 -
[10]
Speaking of nos... are Xlarge nosferatus on the agenda?
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Shayla Sh'inlux
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Posted - 2006.02.05 01:20:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 05/02/2006 01:22:35
1 carrier + gear + drones + insurance = 1000m + 250m + 250m + 250m = 1.75b
1 tier + t2 gear + insurance = 100m + 60m + 30m = 190m
10 battleship = 1,9b
Problem?
Seriously, these things can take massive amounts of damage and 45 seconds in a fleet battle is actually quite long. By the time 45 seconds have passed, the enemy fleet has lost 5-6 battleships and the carrier simply warps out while its fighters remain damaging the enemy.
They're support ships. Ie, you take a fleet with you so you have something to *support*. If you can't kill a carrier easy with a bunch of battleships something is wrong. Not the other way around.
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Alan Bell
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Posted - 2006.02.05 01:47:00 -
[12]
does quickfit have carriers alrdy?
http://coldfusion.online-guild.com |
KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.02.05 02:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Alan Bell
does quickfit have carriers alrdy?
Yes.
Hail Ammo - Remove Speed penality!
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Lightof God
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Posted - 2006.02.05 02:12:00 -
[14]
Carriers were originally supposed to not need a jump drive and be gate capable. So they would be more of a fast reaction ship but that got scrapped somewhere along the way.
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St Dragon
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Posted - 2006.02.05 03:12:00 -
[15]
Ok Dreads Titans and motherships can tank well but the carrier cant.
Well forgetting 3600 DPS is pretty good already dont forget that carriers are essentially Cheap capital ships enabling small corps to get a capital ship true its not the best but it is good at what it does.
Top tip with these if i understand how they work, Assign your fighters to your groupe leaders in the fleet and sit at a safespot let the groupe leaders use them to do there magic and when they get really damaged warp them back for repairs then return to your friends.
Oh quick question i hear that motherships can produce new fighters if they had the minerals on bourd nad a bpo is that true if so its a bit over the top lol.
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"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand |
Menelak Faf
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Posted - 2006.02.05 04:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: KilROCK
Edited by: KilROCK on 05/02/2006 01:11:01
I wonder, If someone uses your fighters to kill something, Does it includes the Carrier on the killmail since the fighters belong to it?
Yes, or atleast I'm pretty sure Iceblock's fighters stole my killmail earlier.
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Where are all of the cruiser sized faction mods, CCP? |
Tido Maliyu
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Posted - 2006.02.05 04:45:00 -
[17]
On the test server we had between 5-10 ravens firing at an archon and we couldn't break it's tank, while we were getting pwnd incredibly fast by it's drones. My raven with non-stop boster and 2 boost amp's couldn't keep it's drones from annihilating it in half a minute.
I don't think we were even close to breaking it...
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Draximus Cane: wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I' |
theRaptor
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Posted - 2006.02.05 05:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tido Maliyu
On the test server we had between 5-10 ravens firing at an archon and we couldn't break it's tank, while we were getting pwnd incredibly fast by it's drones. My raven with non-stop boster and 2 boost amp's couldn't keep it's drones from annihilating it in half a minute.
I don't think we were even close to breaking it...
Against a Dev character with 300million SP? BoB has fought Aurora carriers and real player carriers. Aurora carriers are damn good tanks and pwn BS with their fighters, player carriers are a joke and he had HAC's that were tanking the fighters. Just because some max skilled character with all faction items can make a good tank doesn't mean the average player is going to be any where near as good. I would say that unless you have about ten million SP in mechanics and engineering your carrier should never be on the front line.
I don't think you trust, in, my, self-righteous suicide. |
Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.02.05 05:15:00 -
[19]
I wish it took 3400DPS to take me down, while giving me the firepower to incinerate a BS in seconds, and seeral cruisers before I could lock another one...
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve...
This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran  |
Golan Trevize
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Posted - 2006.02.05 07:11:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Golan Trevize on 05/02/2006 07:14:25
Originally by: Shadowsword
I was toying with the idea of owning a Carrier sometime in the future, and wanted to see how well they could tank, so I opened Quickfit, and here's the result:
For an Archon, with all relevant skills at lv4 (so 20% resists bonus from the Amarr carrier skill, and a 24 seconds cycle for capital repairers)
Dual capital armor repairers, 3 T2 active hardeners, 1 adaptative nano membrane II, cap power relay, 4 cap rechargers II.
With that fit, all resistances are well above 75%, and you can sutain the tank for about 6 minutes.
How well does it tank? About 3400 base DPS, and that's why I think this thread is needed. In a fleet battle, 3400 DPS isn't much. That's about 5 BS worth of firepower. Given the low number of hit points carriers have, for capital ships, 10 BS would destroy an Archon or Chimera in 35-40 seconds, and that would be even faster for a Nidhoggur or a Thanatos.
Given the money investment represented by a Carrier (250-300 millions of insurance, 300-350 millions worth of fighters, 100-150 millions of modules, which gives 650 to 800 millions put to risk, against a 60 milions worth of insurance+T2 modules for a fleet BS), their relative fragility and pretty good firepower, in large engagments carriers are going to be called primary and blow up before that can even lock a battleship and have their fighters come half-way to their target.
So, you have a ship that, because of jump drive mechanics, isn't usefull for mobile, small gang warfare, and yet that can't survive long enough to be usefull as ship of the line. Dreadnoughts also have the same problem, but can use siege modules to change that.
The solution, imho, would be to decrease a lot the cycle time of capital tanking modules, while keeping their cap use per second constant... That, or make carriers able to use jumpgates, so they could be used as small gang flagships.
You or quickfit is very wrong...
I use a setup very similiar to that and i can sustain that the 2 reppers for at least 30 minutes( repped 1,3 mill armor or so) , and i tanked a Naglfar in siegemode (low skilled though)
I wouldent hesitate a second to engage 10 battleships head on.
Golan Trevize.
The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.02.05 07:18:00 -
[21]
Armored Warfare link - Damage control.
Absolutly NEEDED on any Dual capital rep Carrier.
If you can get a damnation to use all 3 Armored warfare links, You'll tank like hell.
Hail Ammo - Remove Speed penality!
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2006.02.05 07:36:00 -
[22]
What happens to the fighters when the ship they've been loaned to gets destroyed?
I would think having the tackle frigates and interceptors lead your fighters in would be most useful, due to their fast lock time, but it depends on what happens once they pop.
Harry Voyager
____________________
I'm not an idiot; I just play one on the forums. |
KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.02.05 07:39:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Harry Voyager
What happens to the fighters when the ship they've been loaned to gets destroyed?
Logical thing would be... Fighters control returning to Carrier.. And like Any drones... When they lose a target, They go Berserker on anything close by..
(I'm guessing they should be returning to the carrier)
Hail Ammo - Remove Speed penality!
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2006.02.05 09:57:00 -
[24]
Most of you are saying that carriers should sit in a safe spot. Doesn't that suddenly make the Thanatos completely overpowered compared to the others?
3400 DPS is a lot, until you put things into perspective. For a small of medium gang, sure, it tanks fine, but when you have 40 BS fitted for fleet battle firing at you, you won't hold even 15 seconds. Given the sluggishness of capital ships, you may not even have time to align for warp.
Tido Maliyu, how was fitted that carrier you fought? If it had core-X type hardeners and the like, then it may have hold out against 10 ravens (that do delayed damage, which give time to the carrier to lock some BS and start moving it's fighters), but you can't just say "Carriers tank fine if you put 1 billion worth of tanking modules"...
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2006.02.05 10:08:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Golan Trevize
Edited by: Golan Trevize on 05/02/2006 07:14:25
You or quickfit is very wrong...
I use a setup very similiar to that and i can sustain that the 2 reppers for at least 30 minutes( repped 1,3 mill armor or so)
I was wrong. I wanted to see if it could sustain the tank indefinitely, and I manually removed at least 40% of cap at the beginning, to see the part of the recharge rate that interested me, and when it dropped below 25% cap I stopped the simulation. When I looked at the time stamp I simply forgot that it wasn't accurate. I can sustain the tank for 13 minutes. If you can do it for 30 minutes, isn't that due to a tanking implant? A lower level in the capital repair system skill?
I stand corrected, but my grip isn't with the sustainability of it's tank, it's that carreirs, as they are now, simply are too fragile for front-line use.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.02.05 10:13:00 -
[26]
Quote:
but when you have 40 BS fitted for fleet battle firing at you, you won't hold even 15 seconds. Given the sluggishness of capital ships, you may not even have time to align for warp.
What kind of imbecile isn't aligned in a fleet fight. You probably.
Read my post. Get armored warfare at 5. Get Armored warfare specialist running and the gang module to reduce cap usage.
I think you're not ready to fly a carrier nor have the balls to take it to the front line anyways. So same yourself the trouble and give me that archon.
Hail Ammo - Remove Speed penality!
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M3ta7h3ad
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Posted - 2006.02.05 10:21:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Shadowsword
you can't just say "Carriers tank fine if you put 1 billion worth of tanking modules"...
Well you wouldnt get a carrier and fit it out with civilian shield boosters would you.
-----
Memorable Quotes
<Jarltan Dimtras> OH MY GOD MY GF IS A DUDE |
KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.02.05 10:25:00 -
[28]
Highslots:
3x TS/DB (any 30km and better) nosses.
1x Remote armor repairer
1x Armored warfare - damage control link
Med slots:
4x Cap II or better.
Low slots:
2x Capital armor repairer
3x 64% Armor hardener
1x 28% Energized Adaptive nano
1x TS/DB Capacitor Power relay
This is how i'd fit my archon.
If you can't afford this, Don't fly a carrier.
If you can afford to lose a t2 fitted Archon, Then. Go Crazy and fit it poorly.
Hail Ammo - Remove Speed penality!
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2006.02.05 10:48:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
I wish it took 3400DPS to take me down, while giving me the firepower to incinerate a BS in seconds, and seeral cruisers before I could lock another one...
Carriers do not have the firepower to incinerate a BS in seconds. Motherships (with max skill pilots) have enough firepower to incinerate a non-aligned BS before it can warp. Carriers are not motherships. The player one BoB fought the other night was having its fighters tanked by HAC's. When it wasn't jammed.
I don't think you trust, in, my, self-righteous suicide. |
Drakhis
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Posted - 2006.02.05 11:18:00 -
[30]
Fighters are Pocket BS's in every intent and purposes same base shield and armor resists as any teir 1 ship and about the same shield armor and structure as a BC with enough firepower to rival most HAC's there rediculous any BS that can tank 2 fighters is a god in my eyes
But yes agreed Carriers should sit in a SS with its fighters assigned to a BS for engagement... the fighters are not going to be called primary just for the fact that any Large gun trying to track them is going to have one hell of a effing day hitting them. people are going to keep people as primaries allowing them to awrp to your carriers SS get repaird and arp back into the fray.
Its what carriers are for a mobbile command center with a small gang of pocket BS's take out the carrier take out the support. So any carrier pilot who is retarded enough to sit in the middle of a fleet engagement deserves to be called primary and get pwned to ****
The ability to perceive or think differently is more important than the knowledge gained. |
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.02.05 11:47:00 -
[31]
thy can tank enough
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.02.05 11:55:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 05/02/2006 01:22:35
1 carrier + gear + drones + insurance = 1000m + 250m + 250m + 250m = 1.75b
1 tier + t2 gear + insurance = 100m + 60m + 30m = 190m
10 battleship = 1,9b
Problem?
Seriously, these things can take massive amounts of damage and 45 seconds in a fleet battle is actually quite long. By the time 45 seconds have passed, the enemy fleet has lost 5-6 battleships and the carrier simply warps out while its fighters remain damaging the enemy.
They're support ships. Ie, you take a fleet with you so you have something to *support*. If you can't kill a carrier easy with a bunch of battleships something is wrong. Not the other way around.
10 battleships = 1,9b? more like 1,4b.
anyway, carriers hp is only 3 times of a battleship. i say increase the hp to give the carrier more buffer, becouse its going to be primary target, and i find it stupid to design a ship that is suppose to sitt at safespot.
another thing that could be done is let siege module be enabled on carriers, that would be fun. :)
"We brake for nobody"
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 12:21:00 -
[33]
tisk tisk tisk
a GOOD carrier example follows
carrier jumps into system with dreds and perhaps other carriers.
carrier warps asap to SS. alligns to second SS.
carrier assigns its fighters to a dred. skilled hac. other ship.
carrier activeates 3 warfare links. yep a carrier can do this.
this is something i would try.
high:
1x armor warefare link passive defense: adds resistance to the armor of gang.
1x skirmish warefare link - evasive maneuvers: lowers sig of gang.
1x electronic superiority - [if you have lots of EW in your gang. say 10+scorps?]
1x large capital armor rep [mostly to rep your own drones and those that warp to you]
1x +1 drone mod.
mids:
2 command processor 1s. [Allows operation of one extra Warfare Link.] [150cpu per +50pg per]
3x cap recharger 2s.
2x capital reps
3x 55% faction hardeners [they are very cheap, about 15mils each] 1x t2 +25% to all
donno if it all fits cba to calculate the cpu.
but i would assume that it all fits nice and easy.
and with 3 warefare links its kinda very very nice [think of 3 armor warefare links. 1 to rep duration. one to rep cap. one to armor resistances]
but then again a t2 BC can fit 3 of the gang mods pretty easy in which case it kinda seems a wast.  . maybe have a t2 BC doing all the warefare links. 2 of them one for armor stuff and another for sensor/sig/shields maybe and then just laod the carrier up with +1 drones mods and a few capital remote reppers.
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2006.02.05 12:22:00 -
[34]
I wonder how well is caldari carrier tanking. 2x pith b boost amps, capital booster, lows filled with relays .
I use no guns... i smack to death. |
Shayla Sh'inlux
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Posted - 2006.02.05 12:27:00 -
[35]
Quote:
10 battleships = 1,9b? more like 1,4b.
Megathron - 100mil
7 x 425 II - 40mil
Magfield II, Tracking Enhancer II, Tracking Comps II, Sensor Booster II etc. - 15mil easy
Insurance - 30mil
= 190mil. I'm sure Ravens are cheaper (after all they're Ravens).
Quote:
anyway, carriers hp is only 3 times of a battleship. i say increase the hp to give the
carrier more buffer, becouse its going to be primary target, and i find it stupid to design a ship that is suppose to sitt at safespot.
More buffer is probably good. I don't want to see them tank more dps. Last thing we want is capital ships to become the new battleships (which is unfortunately aready happening...)
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.02.05 12:29:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: LUKEC
I wonder how well is caldari carrier tanking. 2x pith b boost amps, capital booster, lows filled with relays.
get on sisi they fixed the cpr shield boost bug
also the dampening one?
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 12:29:00 -
[37]
Originally by: LUKEC
I wonder how well is caldari carrier tanking. 2x pith b boost amps, capital booster, lows filled with relays.
get on sisi they fixed the cpr shield boost bug
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 13:00:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: LUKEC
I wonder how well is caldari carrier tanking. 2x pith b boost amps, capital booster, lows filled with relays.
get on sisi they fixed the cpr shield boost bug
also the dampening one?
i would assume so but i just tested the raven cpr thingy. since when i was last on no one in corp was there so was kinda hard to test the damp/tracking desrupter thing alone 
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.02.05 13:30:00 -
[39]
Thing is, I don't even see why you'd want a carrier in a battle zone. Putting aside the fact that it's suicide, all you're adding is a few Nos and/or remote reps. I mean, yes, you could spend another billion or two on it for officer mods to make it battlefield-survivable, but why bother? It's not going to add anything noticable to the battle and it means you lose a lot more if/when you die.
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Warner Caslet
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Posted - 2006.02.05 14:08:00 -
[40]
That's like complaining that one cannot take a modern aircraft carrier, run it aground, then send sailors with wrenches to attack some antiquated Iraqi beach guns. Maybe if we used the aircraft to bomb the guns... Hmm...
I'm sure some handsome fellow will complain that any appeal to reality is fallacious. Such a strategy is a slippery slope which leads to a game in which we fly purple space bananas and like it, on account of it being, after all, just a game!
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Zar Doktar
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Posted - 2006.02.05 14:12:00 -
[41]
There seems to be an interesting split about the carriers...
People who think they arent strong enough, but should be in combat,
And those who think there's just not alot of point, hence are fine.
Now Personally, I dont think Carriers need to be down in the melee, they're too sluggish for that, however, safespotting isnt exactly exciting either, and with the need to jump in, and then align to a safespot, well its possible for the enemy to ambush you as you arrive.
Upping the Carrier's HP isnt a bad idea. Taking a Logistics Ship with you isnt impossible either, I understand they can remote rep quite nicely...
The point of my post though, was to see what you thought about extending the warp in points for the purposes of capital ships, perhaps 150,300,500km... allowing carriers to be on the grid, but at the rear of the battle. A hostile force thats expecting it would likely have covops/ceptors ready to warp in as near to it as possible... for those who arent, well it provides a decent amount of battlefield domination... at 300-500km, it also provides the align point for friendlies, who can be repaired/cap boosted as they re-align, and does what a carrier is meant to do, support the fleet.
That being said, the ethos behind carriers is to project its firepower over great distances... so safespotting isnt nessecarily a bad thing.
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King Dave
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Posted - 2006.02.05 14:24:00 -
[42]
dps calculated is on no resistances... 3400 hp/s with all over 75% res is alot...
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 14:50:00 -
[43]
Originally by: King Dave
dps calculated is on no resistances... 3400 hp/s with all over 75% res is alot...
its raw 3400DPS.
its like 800dps
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 14:52:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Zar Doktar
There seems to be an interesting split about the carriers...
People who think they arent strong enough, but should be in combat,
And those who think there's just not alot of point, hence are fine.
Now Personally, I dont think Carriers need to be down in the melee, they're too sluggish for that, however, safespotting isnt exactly exciting either, and with the need to jump in, and then align to a safespot, well its possible for the enemy to ambush you as you arrive.
Upping the Carrier's HP isnt a bad idea. Taking a Logistics Ship with you isnt impossible either, I understand they can remote rep quite nicely...
The point of my post though, was to see what you thought about extending the warp in points for the purposes of capital ships, perhaps 150,300,500km... allowing carriers to be on the grid, but at the rear of the battle. A hostile force thats expecting it would likely have covops/ceptors ready to warp in as near to it as possible... for those who arent, well it provides a decent amount of battlefield domination... at 300-500km, it also provides the align point for friendlies, who can be repaired/cap boosted as they re-align, and does what a carrier is meant to do, support the fleet.
That being said, the ethos behind carriers is to project its firepower over great distances... so safespotting isnt nessecarily a bad thing.
carriers cant jump with gates, they need to jump into the system useing cyno. thus soon as cyno is created they jump in and warp to safe. fast cepters could grab it. but sicne u dont know when gona enterthrough the field. could be a gang of 20 dreds u might not instantly warp to it.
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2006.02.05 15:48:00 -
[45]
If carriers are really meant to sit in a safe spot, then the Archon and Chimera resists bonus need to be changed to something that would be usefull for their fighters...
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 16:11:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Shadowsword
If carriers are really meant to sit in a safe spot, then the Archon and Chimera resists bonus need to be changed to something that would be usefull for their fighters...
a BS cant tank 10 BS constantly firing at it, yet we field them all the time. just because it cant tank 40 people doesnt mean they are designed not to be on the frong line
its just that at what they cost its not really worth it.
but small groups. 20vs20 it would do well on the frong line
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Berrik Radhok
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Posted - 2006.02.05 16:25:00 -
[47]
You people are missing the point and purpose of carriers BIG TIME. Do real life aircraft carriers sit there and slug it out at point blank with battleships?
No. They sit hundreds of miles away and unleash death from over the horizon.
Anyone who actually brings a carrier into the middle of a fight is a grade-A moron; the entire point of the ship is to sit at a safespot, delegate the fighters to a buddy, and have him and them go to town on the enemy.
They don't tank great because that's not what they're supposed to do. Motherships should be used the same way.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2006.02.05 16:26:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
You people are missing the point and purpose of carriers BIG TIME. Do real life aircraft carriers sit there and slug it out at point blank with battleships?
No. They sit hundreds of miles away and unleash death from over the horizon.
Anyone who actually brings a carrier into the middle of a fight is a grade-A moron; the entire point of the ship is to sit at a safespot, delegate the fighters to a buddy, and have him and them go to town on the enemy.
They don't tank great because that's not what they're supposed to do. Motherships should be used the same way.
Please do explain why the Archon has an armor resistance bonus then.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.02.05 16:33:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
You people are missing the point and purpose of carriers BIG TIME. Do real life aircraft carriers sit there and slug it out at point blank with battleships?
No. They sit hundreds of miles away and unleash death from over the horizon.
Anyone who actually brings a carrier into the middle of a fight is a grade-A moron; the entire point of the ship is to sit at a safespot, delegate the fighters to a buddy, and have him and them go to town on the enemy.
They don't tank great because that's not what they're supposed to do. Motherships should be used the same way.
yes, and I'm sure our real life titans don't have giant super weapons that wipe out entire fleets in one shot. oh wait... 
please don't try and use real life as a comparison tool for a computer game - it just doesn't work.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 16:42:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
You people are missing the point and purpose of carriers BIG TIME. Do real life aircraft carriers sit there and slug it out at point blank with battleships?
No. They sit hundreds of miles away and unleash death from over the horizon.
Anyone who actually brings a carrier into the middle of a fight is a grade-A moron; the entire point of the ship is to sit at a safespot, delegate the fighters to a buddy, and have him and them go to town on the enemy.
They don't tank great because that's not what they're supposed to do. Motherships should be used the same way.
yes, and I'm sure our real life titans don't have giant super weapons that wipe out entire fleets in one shot. oh wait...
please don't try and use real life as a comparison tool for a computer game - it just doesn't work.
neuclear weapons?
lol
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2006.02.05 17:11:00 -
[51]
Originally by: KilROCK
What kind of imbecile isn't aligned in a fleet fight. You probably.
Someone that hasn't loaded the grid yet? Last fleet "battle" I was in involved 2 minute loads on the battle grid, 9/10 of the fleet E-warping on jump in, and all FCs being killed before their client showed them in system. This is not the sort of circumstance you can use carriers in.
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2006.02.05 19:20:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
You people are missing the point and purpose of carriers BIG TIME. Do real life aircraft carriers sit there and slug it out at point blank with battleships?
No. They sit hundreds of miles away and unleash death from over the horizon.
Anyone who actually brings a carrier into the middle of a fight is a grade-A moron; the entire point of the ship is to sit at a safespot, delegate the fighters to a buddy, and have him and them go to town on the enemy.
They don't tank great because that's not what they're supposed to do. Motherships should be used the same way.
Please do explain why the Archon has an armor resistance bonus then.
Why did Ravens start with a 10% bonus to Hybrid Optimal?
There have been many bonuses that have made little sense in grand scheme of things, that have later been changed to reflect the realities of the game.
Harry Voyager
____________________
I'm not an idiot; I just play one on the forums. |
Jezala
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Posted - 2006.02.05 19:47:00 -
[53]
ROFL...and to think I have no qualms about taking a carrier into a fight and allowing it to go into structure.
Honestly, if you have 5-10 battleships focus firing on you for 3-4 mins then what the hell is the rest of your fleet doing??? Are they running a stopwatch and measuring how long it takes you to pop?
A carrier sitting at safespot is a waste of 10's of thousands of hitpoints that could be absorbed for your fleet and it is also a waste of some capital high-slots that could easily turn the tide in an engagement.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.02.05 20:28:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
You people are missing the point and purpose of carriers BIG TIME. Do real life aircraft carriers sit there and slug it out at point blank with battleships?
No. They sit hundreds of miles away and unleash death from over the horizon.
Anyone who actually brings a carrier into the middle of a fight is a grade-A moron; the entire point of the ship is to sit at a safespot, delegate the fighters to a buddy, and have him and them go to town on the enemy.
They don't tank great because that's not what they're supposed to do. Motherships should be used the same way.
what makes you think you know the purpose of carriers?
"We brake for nobody"
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.02.05 20:44:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Please do explain why the Archon has an armor resistance bonus then.
CCP need to be explaining that one. Makes no sense to me. Only one of the carriers looks good to me.
'course, there WILL be counters. Missile ships with prescision amo and Eagles should be able to tear fighters up nicely from range.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Geanina
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Posted - 2006.02.05 20:50:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jezala
ROFL...and to think I have no qualms about taking a carrier into a fight and allowing it to go into structure.
Honestly, if you have 5-10 battleships focus firing on you for 3-4 mins then what the hell is the rest of your fleet doing??? Are they running a stopwatch and measuring how long it takes you to pop?
A carrier sitting at safespot is a waste of 10's of thousands of hitpoints that could be absorbed for your fleet and it is also a waste of some capital high-slots that could easily turn the tide in an engagement.
u got that right
if any of u can fly a nidhoggur and has one could you make me some screens with it? i wanted to buy one but i see that is way to bugged, so for now i'll just keep training.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 21:17:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Jezala
ROFL...and to think I have no qualms about taking a carrier into a fight and allowing it to go into structure.
Honestly, if you have 5-10 battleships focus firing on you for 3-4 mins then what the hell is the rest of your fleet doing??? Are they running a stopwatch and measuring how long it takes you to pop?
A carrier sitting at safespot is a waste of 10's of thousands of hitpoints that could be absorbed for your fleet and it is also a waste of some capital high-slots that could easily turn the tide in an engagement.
assume your useinf non faction. and you get your lowest resistance to 80%
dual capital reps with maxed skills. they are hitting you at 80% resistance. you can tank 4300 Raw DPS.
20 BS hitting you with 500 DPS = 10,000 DPS. 5700 leaks through.
guess how long its gona take to pop you?
less then 60seconds
that is with only 20BS shooting you
recently i have seen many vids where a whole fleet concentrates fire power onto a single DRED and it dies very very fast. one off the top of my mind, a fleet of what looked like 30BS + support warped into a group [5-6 dreds] and poped one of the dreds so fast.
one min of concentrated firepower to kill a ship which outputs 3000 DPS useing drones and costs 1.5bils per loss [including drones] if i where a FC i think i would call it pirmary.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 21:20:00 -
[58]
they are not ment to tank a whole fleet. i dont think any ship in game is, and it should not be ever.
they can tank 10 people long enough to kill them assumeing u got a small gang with you too.
and tanking the whole other group for 60sec gives ur guys 60sec of unharrised shooting abck
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2006.02.05 21:31:00 -
[59]
3400 DPS tankin ability + 'resists above 75%' can certainly tank more then 10 BS focus from 80-100km(average fleet battle range). At such ranges BS barely tops 300 dps of 'clean' damage with its heavy hitting insta-dmg setups.
Now add 75% resistances across the board.
More of that, even if carrier in a need to get right into action, i think it needs to be supported by dreads. If corp or alliance able to field a carrier, they should be able to field dread as well.
And like some already said above, it supposed to sit at safespot nearby having its fighters assigned to gnag members, altrough its not clear about killmail, if a carrier pilot gets onto it as well...
-=-
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 22:01:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Sky Hunter
3400 DPS tankin ability + 'resists above 75%' can certainly tank more then 10 BS focus from 80-100km(average fleet battle range). At such ranges BS barely tops 300 dps of 'clean' damage with its heavy hitting insta-dmg setups.
Now add 75% resistances across the board.
More of that, even if carrier in a need to get right into action, i think it needs to be supported by dreads. If corp or alliance able to field a carrier, they should be able to field dread as well.
And like some already said above, it supposed to sit at safespot nearby having its fighters assigned to gnag members, altrough its not clear about killmail, if a carrier pilot gets onto it as well...
it is 3400 DPS taking the resistance into account
2x large armor rep = 9600*2 hp rep per cycle = 19,200
rep cycle = 22.5sec
hp recover per second = 853.33 hp recover a sec
so its 850 DPS recover.
assume its being hit at 75% resistance. thats 3400 HP raw tank
and that is about 3 highly skilled blasterthrons.
or 10 sniperthrons at 100km.
IE 20ppl sniping = dead fast
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Twilight Moon
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Posted - 2006.02.05 22:32:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Jezala
ROFL...and to think I have no qualms about taking a carrier into a fight and allowing it to go into structure.
Honestly, if you have 5-10 battleships focus firing on you for 3-4 mins then what the hell is the rest of your fleet doing??? Are they running a stopwatch and measuring how long it takes you to pop?
A carrier sitting at safespot is a waste of 10's of thousands of hitpoints that could be absorbed for your fleet and it is also a waste of some capital high-slots that could easily turn the tide in an engagement.
assume your useinf non faction. and you get your lowest resistance to 80%
dual capital reps with maxed skills. they are hitting you at 80% resistance. you can tank 4300 Raw DPS.
20 BS hitting you with 500 DPS = 10,000 DPS. 5700 leaks through.
guess how long its gona take to pop you?
less then 60seconds
that is with only 20BS shooting you
recently i have seen many vids where a whole fleet concentrates fire power onto a single DRED and it dies very very fast. one off the top of my mind, a fleet of what looked like 30BS + support warped into a group [5-6 dreds] and poped one of the dreds so fast.
one min of concentrated firepower to kill a ship which outputs 3000 DPS useing drones and costs 1.5bils per loss [including drones] if i where a FC i think i would call it pirmary.
Aye, but you arent thinking about the other side of the equation. Wonderful, the 20 enemy BS can pop you in under a minute.
But....in that full 60 seconds, how many of those enemy battleships can the carrier and its accompaning fleet kill? Obviously the carrier and its attendant fleet will be focus firing as well, so those 20 BS are going to start dropping relatively fast....and as each and every one slowly, but surely drops the DPS that the carrier is taking will drop, therefore its survival time, will rise, most likely to a point where the carrier can happily tank all the damage the, now decimated, enemy fleet is pumping out, and will quite happily stomp all over the enemy fleet.....along with its inctact support fleet, seeing as the Carrier was the only ship absorbing all the incoming fire.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.02.05 22:33:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Please do explain why the Archon has an armor resistance bonus then.
CCP need to be explaining that one. Makes no sense to me. Only one of the carriers looks good to me.
'course, there WILL be counters. Missile ships with prescision amo and Eagles should be able to tear fighters up nicely from range.
Yep.
You put on one energized adaptive II and you get 20% res to all, which module are amarr/caldari/minmatar suppose to use to even come close to 50% fighter damage?
________________________________________________________
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 22:38:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Please do explain why the Archon has an armor resistance bonus then.
CCP need to be explaining that one. Makes no sense to me. Only one of the carriers looks good to me.
'course, there WILL be counters. Missile ships with prescision amo and Eagles should be able to tear fighters up nicely from range.
Yep.
You put on one energized adaptive II and you get 20% res to all, which module are amarr/caldari/minmatar suppose to use to even come close to 50% fighter damage?
first off its 25%. secondly it stacks.
thus the 3rd energized adaptive on a galante dred does a lot lower then 25% [i guestimate a nuber of half that]
what mod. erm let me see a DRONE DAMAGE MOD. [yes they are not in yet because they where buged. they will be introduced though]
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.02.05 22:42:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Please do explain why the Archon has an armor resistance bonus then.
CCP need to be explaining that one. Makes no sense to me. Only one of the carriers looks good to me.
'course, there WILL be counters. Missile ships with prescision amo and Eagles should be able to tear fighters up nicely from range.
Yep.
You put on one energized adaptive II and you get 20% res to all, which module are amarr/caldari/minmatar suppose to use to even come close to 50% fighter damage?
first off its 25%. secondly it stacks.
thus the 3rd energized adaptive on a galante dred does a lot lower then 25% [i guestimate a nuber of half that]
what mod. erm let me see a DRONE DAMAGE MOD. [yes they are not in yet because they where buged. they will be introduced though]
its still 1 mod vs 2.5 mods you gain
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 22:47:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Jezala
ROFL...and to think I have no qualms about taking a carrier into a fight and allowing it to go into structure.
Honestly, if you have 5-10 battleships focus firing on you for 3-4 mins then what the hell is the rest of your fleet doing??? Are they running a stopwatch and measuring how long it takes you to pop?
A carrier sitting at safespot is a waste of 10's of thousands of hitpoints that could be absorbed for your fleet and it is also a waste of some capital high-slots that could easily turn the tide in an engagement.
assume your useinf non faction. and you get your lowest resistance to 80%
dual capital reps with maxed skills. they are hitting you at 80% resistance. you can tank 4300 Raw DPS.
20 BS hitting you with 500 DPS = 10,000 DPS. 5700 leaks through.
guess how long its gona take to pop you?
less then 60seconds
that is with only 20BS shooting you
recently i have seen many vids where a whole fleet concentrates fire power onto a single DRED and it dies very very fast. one off the top of my mind, a fleet of what looked like 30BS + support warped into a group [5-6 dreds] and poped one of the dreds so fast.
one min of concentrated firepower to kill a ship which outputs 3000 DPS useing drones and costs 1.5bils per loss [including drones] if i where a FC i think i would call it pirmary.
Aye, but you arent thinking about the other side of the equation. Wonderful, the 20 enemy BS can pop you in under a minute.
But....in that full 60 seconds, how many of those enemy battleships can the carrier and its accompaning fleet kill? Obviously the carrier and its attendant fleet will be focus firing as well, so those 20 BS are going to start dropping relatively fast....and as each and every one slowly, but surely drops the DPS that the carrier is taking will drop, therefore its survival time, will rise, most likely to a point where the carrier can happily tank all the damage the, now decimated, enemy fleet is pumping out, and will quite happily stomp all over the enemy fleet.....along with its inctact support fleet, seeing as the Carrier was the only ship absorbing all the incoming fire.
your missing one mayjour point. its a lot easier to hold down 1 carrier then it is to hold down 20 BS.
fine yes that 60sec buys u enough time to pop say 10 of their BS. well more then half will warp out assuming that they are not half assed and kill your support relatively fast.
oh and a fleet of 40 BS. well 30sec. that is definitly worth it lol. consider normally u call a BS pirmary and a BS secondary. normally you get a few shots in and need to lock another ship. ie maybe 30-50% of the time you not shooting someting [btw i always makes sure that im shooting something but generally thats waht ppl do] so shooting a carrier is actually more efficent. also the missile users get a few hits too.
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.02.05 22:57:00 -
[66]
In my oppinion it's very simple.
1. None should be flying a captital ships without proper skills, implants and equipment.
2. (As has been stated by the devs too) Dreadnaughts is the capital ship for frontline combat. Other ships (such as carriers) naturally only have defence enough to handle 'un-expected trouble'.
3. A Phoenix Dreadnaught can tank up to approx 65.000 raw damage per second.
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 22:59:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Please do explain why the Archon has an armor resistance bonus then.
CCP need to be explaining that one. Makes no sense to me. Only one of the carriers looks good to me.
'course, there WILL be counters. Missile ships with prescision amo and Eagles should be able to tear fighters up nicely from range.
Yep.
You put on one energized adaptive II and you get 20% res to all, which module are amarr/caldari/minmatar suppose to use to even come close to 50% fighter damage?
first off its 25%. secondly it stacks.
thus the 3rd energized adaptive on a galante dred does a lot lower then 25% [i guestimate a nuber of half that]
what mod. erm let me see a DRONE DAMAGE MOD. [yes they are not in yet because they where buged. they will be introduced though]
its still 1 mod vs 2.5 mods you gain
how does that work.
a galante one can not tank as well as any of the ones with +5% res per lvl. and none of the +5% res per lvl ones can gank as much.
assume a galante one puts 4 hardeners on and 1 dmg mod. the others put on 3 hardeners and 2 dmg mods. [the 2nd damage mod adds what half of its max capacity. but the 4th hardeners adds waht? could be half of max or less depending on what hardeners are used.
in short. yes the galante one has more damage then the rest. but it cant not tank better then the others no matter what it does.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.02.05 23:21:00 -
[68]
and there is the question again, for what does a carrier need to tank good? Its not like you need to go to the frontline at all.
And what I meant was, the 25% bonus to resistances are a single module boni, where the gallente one gets a double damage bonus...
+25% would make it still the most powerfull carrier out there, but not that overpowered compared to the others
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.05 23:30:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Nafri
and there is the question again, for what does a carrier need to tank good? Its not like you need to go to the frontline at all.
And what I meant was, the 25% bonus to resistances are a single module boni, where the gallente one gets a double damage bonus...
+25% would make it still the most powerfull carrier out there, but not that overpowered compared to the others
since they cant use jump gates. assume its an offensive, they need to jump into the system. in which time a hostile fleet can warp to him instantly in its weakend state with non full cap. then its faced with having to tank
if its a defensive ship [defending from enermy attack]. then i suppose u dont even need 1 armor repper.
so a tank is indeed required. you can warp to a cyno and id assume a large enermy fleet would indeed warp to it at their various optimals
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Boonaki
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Posted - 2006.02.06 00:03:00 -
[70]
This is a really cool role for a carrier...
3 dreads engaging a POS, 3 carriers at various safespots with their fighters asigned to the dreads. Each carrier has a set of 5-10 safespots and randomly warps to them to prevent being scanned down. It basicly forces you to bring dreads and carriers of your own into the fight.
Now if the servers could only support such fights.
Fear the Ibis of doom. |
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Boonaki
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Posted - 2006.02.06 00:09:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Nafri
and there is the question again, for what does a carrier need to tank good? Its not like you need to go to the frontline at all.
And what I meant was, the 25% bonus to resistances are a single module boni, where the gallente one gets a double damage bonus...
+25% would make it still the most powerfull carrier out there, but not that overpowered compared to the others
since they cant use jump gates. assume its an offensive, they need to jump into the system. in which time a hostile fleet can warp to him instantly in its weakend state with non full cap. then its faced with having to tank
if its a defensive ship [defending from enermy attack]. then i suppose u dont even need 1 armor repper.
Thats why you open up the cyno field at a friendly POS you setup before they knew anything about the invasion plans. Throw a mothership into the fray and you can have pilots clone jumping in and jumping into small support craft
The future of fleet combat is changing quickly as more and more capital ships come into play.
What I'd like to see is more equipmentfor capital ships, and the implementation of CCP's plans for player built stargates at POS's. Include a clone facility at a POS and you have a serious threat from POS's that can not be ignored in home systems.
so a tank is indeed required. you can warp to a cyno and id assume a large enermy fleet would indeed warp to it at their various optimals
Fear the Ibis of doom. |
Meridius
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Posted - 2006.02.06 00:23:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Nafri
and there is the question again, for what does a carrier need to tank good? Its not like you need to go to the frontline at all.
And what I meant was, the 25% bonus to resistances are a single module boni, where the gallente one gets a double damage bonus...
+25% would make it still the most powerfull carrier out there, but not that overpowered compared to the others
since they cant use jump gates. assume its an offensive, they need to jump into the system. in which time a hostile fleet can warp to him instantly in its weakend state with non full cap. then its faced with having to tank
if its a defensive ship [defending from enermy attack]. then i suppose u dont even need 1 armor repper.
so a tank is indeed required. you can warp to a cyno and id assume a large enermy fleet would indeed warp to it at their various optimals
What will a typical carrier be doing the most, tanking or using fighters?
Using fighters.
If the Gallente one got a 25% damage bonus it would still have a large advantage over the other carriers but thats not the case, it gets a double damage bonus
If a fleet does warp in on a cap weakened carrier, it's dead. 20-30bs would make mincemeat out of a carrier, 25% res bonus or not.
Maybe the 25% res bonus should go up to 50%? Heh.
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Berrik Radhok
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Posted - 2006.02.06 07:20:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
You people are missing the point and purpose of carriers BIG TIME. Do real life aircraft carriers sit there and slug it out at point blank with battleships?
No. They sit hundreds of miles away and unleash death from over the horizon.
Anyone who actually brings a carrier into the middle of a fight is a grade-A moron; the entire point of the ship is to sit at a safespot, delegate the fighters to a buddy, and have him and them go to town on the enemy.
They don't tank great because that's not what they're supposed to do. Motherships should be used the same way.
what makes you think you know the purpose of carriers?
The fact that they're set up to do the same thing in EVE they do in real life?
If anyone takes a carrier into a fleet battle, it will be called primary and die, losing the pilot a 1.5 billion isk ship and some extra in fighters.
Whereas, if you let it sit at a safespot, you can just designate the fighters to a friend in an intie.
Re the wierd bonuses, I'd say that's more reflective of an Amarr racial thing than it is anything else.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.02.06 09:32:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
You people are missing the point and purpose of carriers BIG TIME. Do real life aircraft carriers sit there and slug it out at point blank with battleships?
No. They sit hundreds of miles away and unleash death from over the horizon.
Anyone who actually brings a carrier into the middle of a fight is a grade-A moron; the entire point of the ship is to sit at a safespot, delegate the fighters to a buddy, and have him and them go to town on the enemy.
They don't tank great because that's not what they're supposed to do. Motherships should be used the same way.
what makes you think you know the purpose of carriers?
The fact that they're set up to do the same thing in EVE they do in real life?
If anyone takes a carrier into a fleet battle, it will be called primary and die, losing the pilot a 1.5 billion isk ship and some extra in fighters.
Whereas, if you let it sit at a safespot, you can just designate the fighters to a friend in an intie.
Re the wierd bonuses, I'd say that's more reflective of an Amarr racial thing than it is anything else.
using your logic a battleship and a dreadnought should sitt at safespot, becouse if they are taken into a fleet they are going to die. they should sitt at safespot and provide moral boost in local.
"We brake for nobody"
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MOS DEF
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Posted - 2006.02.06 09:45:00 -
[75]
So much assumptions in here. At first the DPS amounts are not correct since fleet battles usually take place at quite some range and those DPS used here all assume one would use highest dmg ammo up close.
Second: Warping a carrier into 40 BS assuming not to die is probably the most stupid thing one could do.
Third: Carrier is not designed to fight up close and usually WILL assign fighters from a SS.
forth:: Armor resist bonus has it`s use since you allways could get into a situation where enemies warp to your cyno field. Fighters on non gallente carriers are still very scary too.
fifth: A Carrier plus fighters is maybe around 1 bill. If that could tank 20 BS easily ALONE the game would be BROKEN.
IMO carriers tank fine but are no solo fleet pwnmobile wich they shouldn`t be.
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Gabriel Karade
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Posted - 2006.02.06 10:35:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Gronsak
assume your useinf non faction. and you get your lowest resistance to 80%
dual capital reps with maxed skills. they are hitting you at 80% resistance. you can tank 4300 Raw DPS.
20 BS hitting you with 500 DPS = 10,000 DPS. 5700 leaks through.
guess how long its gona take to pop you?
less then 60seconds
that is with only 20BS shooting you
500 DPS is a bit optimistic for a lot of Fleet fights, more than likely you would be doing half that e.g. at a range that requires tungsten instead of antimatter.
I suppose the with the Gallente/Minmatar versions you could always keep them on the same grid, but just out of direct fire range.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on" |
Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2006.02.06 11:26:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Sky Hunter
3400 DPS tankin ability + 'resists above 75%' can certainly tank more then 10 BS focus from 80-100km(average fleet battle range). At such ranges BS barely tops 300 dps of 'clean' damage with its heavy hitting insta-dmg setups.
Now add 75% resistances across the board.
More of that, even if carrier in a need to get right into action, i think it needs to be supported by dreads. If corp or alliance able to field a carrier, they should be able to field dread as well.
And like some already said above, it supposed to sit at safespot nearby having its fighters assigned to gnag members, altrough its not clear about killmail, if a carrier pilot gets onto it as well...
it is 3400 DPS taking the resistance into account
2x large armor rep = 9600*2 hp rep per cycle = 19,200
rep cycle = 22.5sec
hp recover per second = 853.33 hp recover a sec
so its 850 DPS recover.
assume its being hit at 75% resistance. thats 3400 HP raw tank
and that is about 3 highly skilled blasterthrons.
or 10 sniperthrons at 100km.
IE 20ppl sniping = dead fast
Well, but you dont use close-range BS in fleet fight that goes at 80km minimum mostly.
Ok so lets say 20 BS focuses fire on a Carrier from lets say 90km(since all BS are on different distance so we take average between 80 and 100). They will be able to outdamage carrier tank. But now, try surviving in your BS under fighter focus.
To make it easier, id say from my own opinion that 1 Minmatar fighter does damage compared close to 2 T2 Large autocannons with average skills. Now add to it that they orbit you close and they have lower sig radius so you wont hit em with your long-range setups.
So now like BoB member said on 2nd page, its hard to judge on carrier abilities. Lets see what will go after few month 
-=-
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.02.06 12:39:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Nafri
and there is the question again, for what does a carrier need to tank good? Its not like you need to go to the frontline at all.
And what I meant was, the 25% bonus to resistances are a single module boni, where the gallente one gets a double damage bonus...
+25% would make it still the most powerfull carrier out there, but not that overpowered compared to the others
since they cant use jump gates. assume its an offensive, they need to jump into the system. in which time a hostile fleet can warp to him instantly in its weakend state with non full cap. then its faced with having to tank
if its a defensive ship [defending from enermy attack]. then i suppose u dont even need 1 armor repper.
so a tank is indeed required. you can warp to a cyno and id assume a large enermy fleet would indeed warp to it at their various optimals
What will a typical carrier be doing the most, tanking or using fighters?
Using fighters.
If the Gallente one got a 25% damage bonus it would still have a large advantage over the other carriers but thats not the case, it gets a double damage bonus
If a fleet does warp in on a cap weakened carrier, it's dead. 20-30bs would make mincemeat out of a carrier, 25% res bonus or not.
Maybe the 25% res bonus should go up to 50%? Heh.
it gets a +1 fighter per level and a +10% bonous to damage per level.
other carrier gets +1 fighters per lvl and +5% dmg per level.
maxed skilled galante carrier = 50% more damage then amx skilled other carrier
max skilled non galante carrier = 25% less dmg
galante carrier =150 damage VS 100 dmg
galante carrier takes 100damage from non galante carrier. galante carrier gives 150*0.75=112.5dmg to non galante carrier
thus max skills the difference of the Damage vs tank is about 12.5%. which isnt overpowered imo considering that galante are the drone race [LOL AT CALDARI NUBBINS AND THEIR MANTICORE WITH 3 LAUNCHERS sorry bout that  ]
back on track. if at a SS and tanking is of no importance then the galante one does infact do the job 50% better then a non galante carrier [assumeing max skills]. but since these things need to jump in useing cyno and anything in the system can warp to that cyno then i see these things geting scrambled by cepters asap and a fleet soon warp on their asses.
But on a carrier vs carrier 1vs1 [which ofcourse is not really the best option to balance these things] then at maxed skills the galante one does 1.5x dmg of another carrier but 25% of that is lost from their tank bonous so it does 0.5*0.75=1.125x more damage then the non galante one. 12.5% better dmg/tank isnt too abd imo since galante are ment to be the uber drone users [and its not retarded like 50% more burst damage a manticore has over other SB with nothing logical to make up for it]
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.03.14 04:56:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Gronsak
it gets a +1 fighter per level and a +10% bonous to damage per level.
other carrier gets +1 fighters per lvl and +5% dmg per level.
maxed skilled galante carrier = 50% more damage then amx skilled other carrier
max skilled non galante carrier = 25% less dmg
galante carrier =150 damage VS 100 dmg
galante carrier takes 100damage from non galante carrier. galante carrier gives 150*0.75=112.5dmg to non galante carrier
thus max skills the difference of the Damage vs tank is about 12.5%. which isnt overpowered imo considering that galante are the drone race [LOL AT CALDARI NUBBINS AND THEIR MANTICORE WITH 3 LAUNCHERS sorry bout that ]
Dear Mr Gronsak regrettably we have to inform you that NO Carrier besides Gallente get a dmg bonus to fighters. Plz be a nice chap and tell us out of where you have pulled the 5% dmg to fighters for other carriers info.
Originally by: Oveur
****! Lets nerf it!
To the nerfmobile!
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Baun
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Posted - 2006.03.14 05:03:00 -
[80]
Just want to reiterate that this is a problem for all Capital ships except dreadnoughts. The only difference between the tank of a Titan, Mothership and Carrier is the amount of base HP (which is important but ultimately not all that significant given how fracking easy it is to drop a warp disrupt probe on them before they warp).
Its probably OK that carriers tank like this. They can stave off 5-6 BS which makes them viable in-grid ships for small engagements. Motherships and Titans (especially Titans) need a defense upgrade.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
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Posted - 2006.03.14 05:09:00 -
[81]
The real issue is how easy it is to JAM carriers. This makes it impossible for them to reliably remote repair each other, which they should be able to do.
The solution (as we discussed in a thread JUST AFTER carriers were released) is to be able to activate modules on gangmates WITHOUT locking them.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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jamesw
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Posted - 2006.03.14 05:27:00 -
[82]
Edited by: jamesw on 14/03/2006 05:27:32
So there is a fleet waiting for your carrier at the cyno beacon. They start shooting your carrier when it jumps in.
While they destroy 1.7bil worth of carrier, your support fleet (you brought one, right?) destroys half of their BS Fleet.
ohnoes!
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Latest Vid: Bobbing for Xelas |
Keven
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Posted - 2006.03.14 10:00:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Keven on 14/03/2006 10:06:20
Does the US navy send her carriers into the enemy fleet?
No... the navy does not. Thats the whole fracking point of carriers: Annihilate some poor bastards without risking your ship and incredible amounts of money. Same job as a battle ship, but sooo much better and more efficient.
We dont need another doomitfix like incarnation, killing enemy cap while pawning everything thats left with fighters.
The "pawning with fighters" is devlish enough.
Safespot base for the win.
+ if the enmy fleets is waiting at the cyno field: dun friggn jump to it.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.03.14 10:10:00 -
[84]
a capital designed to sitt on a safespot is totally bull****!
if you dont give them better tanking abilities, at least up their hp 20%-25% all over.
"We brake for nobody"
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Mallik Hendrake
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Posted - 2006.03.14 10:23:00 -
[85]
I think carriers are perfectly and totally suited to their role, and are pretty awesome.
One thing we're all forgetting is that it only takes about 4-5 months to skill up for a carrier superbly. Everyone and his mama and brother are gonna be flying them soon. You get 10 carriers in a fight and watch the fireworks. as 4-5 bs at a time instapop. We talk about 50 bs+support vs. 5 carriers+support, but what you'll see is 50 bs+support vs. 5 carriers+45 bs+support, because it only takes one dude to pilot a carrier. Keep taking that further and you'll see why carriers and dreads are going to change the face of the game.
A few more capital mods, and t2 capital mods will hit the game. super extra extenders, 48000mm plates, and so on, capital warp core stabilizers (go BE!) and similar.
Also, if you don't want your carrier to get jammed have it fit a frigging EW resist item. +60% or some-odd will get you some ridiculous sensor strength (to the point that you should rarely be jammed).
I don't think we can realistically whinge about them yet. The capital age is just beginning, and now is not the time to cry. When BoB brings 20 carriers to your system there'll be time enough for cryin'.
--------------------------------------------
"A plan is just a list of things that don't happen." -- Parker, _The Way of the Gun_
Mallik Hendrake
E X O D U S
[I do not speak for E X O or IRON] |
Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2006.03.14 11:48:00 -
[86]
a new type of remote reppers would b nice,
maybe type is not the right word,
somethin that makes it possible to rempote rep some1 without having to lock.
the reason carriers at ss`s repping bses,
that had to jumpout of a fleetbattle,
doesnt work is because their slow locktime.
-
Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
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Ariadne
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Posted - 2006.03.14 12:02:00 -
[87]
Can you see the dmg to your fighters now when they are in distant space?
And carriers arent frontline ships. They are support ships.
"This means V+R."
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migwar
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Posted - 2006.03.14 12:17:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
Originally by: Admiral IceBlock
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
You people are missing the point and purpose of carriers BIG TIME. Do real life aircraft carriers sit there and slug it out at point blank with battleships?
No. They sit hundreds of miles away and unleash death from over the horizon.
Anyone who actually brings a carrier into the middle of a fight is a grade-A moron; the entire point of the ship is to sit at a safespot, delegate the fighters to a buddy, and have him and them go to town on the enemy.
They don't tank great because that's not what they're supposed to do. Motherships should be used the same way.
what makes you think you know the purpose of carriers?
The fact that they're set up to do the same thing in EVE they do in real life?
If anyone takes a carrier into a fleet battle, it will be called primary and die, losing the pilot a 1.5 billion isk ship and some extra in fighters.
Whereas, if you let it sit at a safespot, you can just designate the fighters to a friend in an intie.
Re the wierd bonuses, I'd say that's more reflective of an Amarr racial thing than it is anything else.
using your logic a battleship and a dreadnought should sitt at safespot, becouse if they are taken into a fleet they are going to die. they should sitt at safespot and provide moral boost in local.
yes but dreads and BS cant do full damage while sat in their safespot
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Jin Entres
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Posted - 2006.03.14 12:25:00 -
[89]
I, for one, am very excited about training 5-10 months for a ship that costs billions to fly just so I can sit in a safespot.
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jamesw
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Posted - 2006.03.14 12:27:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Jin Entres
I, for one, am very excited about training 5-10 months for a ship that costs billions to fly just so I can sit in a safespot.
No one is making you.
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Latest Vid: Bobbing for Xelas |
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Kunming
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Posted - 2006.03.14 12:35:00 -
[91]
I agree with who ever said "Designing a ship to sit at a SS it stupid". This is a game FFS sitting at a SS is one of the most boring things you can do, if someone spends 2bils on a ship he wants to see some action in the end.
It is obvious these ships dont have enough defense to enter large scale battles and dont have enough mobility to act as a flagship for small gangs. Either give them more HP/tank/etc, or allow them to use stargates.
Motherships being able to build replacement fighters is a nice idea, RL aircraft carriers have fighter factories in them + usually enough materials to build twice the amount of fighters they carry.
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jamesw
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:00:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Kunming
RL aircraft carriers have fighter factories in them + usually enough materials to build twice the amount of fighters they carry.
Say What?
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Latest Vid: Bobbing for Xelas |
Mitchman
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:02:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Kunming
RL aircraft carriers have fighter factories in them + usually enough materials to build twice the amount of fighters they carry.
Eh, no.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:04:00 -
[94]
Quote:
RL aircraft carriers have fighter factories in them + usually enough materials to build twice the amount of fighters they carry.
They do?
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Kunming
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:07:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Kunming on 14/03/2006 13:08:22
What I meant is assembly halls, when fighters go down new ones are assembled from the packaged parts.
Edit: sorry english is not my native language.. way to make your self the village idiot
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Reiisha
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Posted - 2006.03.14 13:10:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Kunming
RL aircraft carriers have fighter factories in them + usually enough materials to build twice the amount of fighters they carry.
You realize that twice the material of the planes already on board, plus the plans, plus the crew necessities, plus the engines, plus... you get the point, are filling the ship up quite nicely.
Also, fight planes take months to build. They're not cars, they have quite good computers in them... They aren't worth 100mil+ REAL dollars for no reason.
There's a couple of hundred more reasons why im thinking of declaring you clinically and uncurably insane, but i hope you can figure those out for yourself.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.03.14 14:11:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Kunming
RL aircraft carriers have fighter factories in them + usually enough materials to build twice the amount of fighters they carry.
You realize that twice the material of the planes already on board, plus the plans, plus the crew necessities, plus the engines, plus... you get the point, are filling the ship up quite nicely.
Also, fight planes take months to build. They're not cars, they have quite good computers in them... They aren't worth 100mil+ REAL dollars for no reason.
There's a couple of hundred more reasons why im thinking of declaring you clinically and uncurably insane, but i hope you can figure those out for yourself.
Didnt you hear, there's secret tech on aircraft carriers these days that makes all those parts take up no space and weigh nothing and advanced nanobots that build planes in hours.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.03.14 17:10:00 -
[98]
haha, even freighters have more hp then carriers... :D
"We brake for nobody"
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Dahin
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Posted - 2006.03.14 17:42:00 -
[99]
speaking of capitals, we saw the other day an amarr dread holding against 3 nosdomi's and 1-2 bs for over 5-6 minutes (in siege mode).
now THAT'S tanking.
At the next run he opted for no guns and he fitted an officer smartie. Suffice to say we did **** to him. Nossing him with 10-13 large nos and he was still up an running after 10mins.
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FawKa
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Posted - 2006.03.14 18:09:00 -
[100]
Edited by: FawKa on 14/03/2006 18:10:40
I found the bloody answer
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FawKa
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Posted - 2006.03.14 18:44:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Jezala
ROFL...and to think I have no qualms about taking a carrier into a fight and allowing it to go into structure.
Honestly, if you have 5-10 battleships focus firing on you for 3-4 mins then what the hell is the rest of your fleet doing??? Are they running a stopwatch and measuring how long it takes you to pop?
A carrier sitting at safespot is a waste of 10's of thousands of hitpoints that could be absorbed for your fleet and it is also a waste of some capital high-slots that could easily turn the tide in an engagement.
assume your useinf non faction. and you get your lowest resistance to 80%
dual capital reps with maxed skills. they are hitting you at 80% resistance. you can tank 4300 Raw DPS.
20 BS hitting you with 500 DPS = 10,000 DPS. 5700 leaks through.
guess how long its gona take to pop you?
less then 60seconds
that is with only 20BS shooting you
recently i have seen many vids where a whole fleet concentrates fire power onto a single DRED and it dies very very fast. one off the top of my mind, a fleet of what looked like 30BS + support warped into a group [5-6 dreds] and poped one of the dreds so fast.
one min of concentrated firepower to kill a ship which outputs 3000 DPS useing drones and costs 1.5bils per loss [including drones] if i where a FC i think i would call it pirmary.
God, you still dont got the point !
As Jezala just said, if you take the 20BS vs 19 BS and a carrier -
Yeah, if all the shots is concentraded on the carrier it will die, but only if rest of the 19 BSs is shooting at eachother ! If 20 BS can pop a carrier in 60 seconds how fast can 19 BSs then pop a BS? like 2 sec? If the carrier gang is working together it will defeat the 20 BSs!
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