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Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
131
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Posted - 2011.12.07 04:46:00 -
[31] - Quote
Gank an Tank roles:
Minmatar - Make both the Wolf and Jaguar as fast and agile as the rifter. Make their starting resistances closer to what you see on EAF then currently. 60% EM resistance rather then 70%. Ect.
Jaguar: Frigate bonuses - damage and tracking AF bonuses - 5% shield resistance and 5% velocity per level. Concept - fast and hardy tackler, firepower of a rifter
Wolf: Frigate bonuses - damage and tracking AF bonuses - damage and falloff Concept - withering firepower, weak tank
Role bonus - nuet or web resistance |
Deena Amaj
Oberon Incorporated
2
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Posted - 2011.12.07 05:54:00 -
[32] - Quote
I want that AB bonus.
Or give them better chances of "evasion" whenever under fire.
Or here is fun gag. It is called assault frigate but you can't fit a group of assault missile launchers on it without PG screaming. Hmm
confirthisposmed |
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
224
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Posted - 2011.12.07 13:47:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:AF Role: RvB
5 Senses In A Person... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Poles On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!-á If You Like My Sig, Like Me! |
Tsubutai
The Tuskers
30
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Posted - 2011.12.07 14:43:00 -
[34] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I think any discussion of AFs should consider which ones are good enough vs those that just aren't making the grade. The Ishkur and Jag are widely considered pretty good and when adding a 4th bonus you need to be careful of making them OP. The Hawk, Enyo, and Harpy OTOH are widely considered pretty terrible.
No matter what happens: - 1 mid slot is not acceptable and 2 feels pretty limited. - The Hawk needs the 5% Kin bonus replaced with a 10% Kin bonus as the Kestrel has. The 4th bonus can be ROF or damage or even another tanking bonus for all I care. - Make the ships reasonably fittable with T2 weapons at AWU 4. Bonus points if AWU5 opens up some truly stupendous fits.
-Liang I realise you've been out of the game for a long time, but the Hawk and Harpy are both very solid, and the Enyo's nowhere near as bad as people make out. TBH, in terms of intra-class balance, the AFs are in a pretty good place; the problem is that they're collectively kind of lackluster when compared to other ship classes.
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Lucas Schuyler
Mortis Noir. Unforgiving.
7
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Posted - 2011.12.07 15:11:00 -
[35] - Quote
This 4th Bonus debate comes up a lot. While an AB bonus makes sense, I think some of the "outside the box" ideas may be better.
The ability to fit a Bomb Launcher lives up the the "assault" part of the name.
Or what about some kind of passive on grid leadership bonus? Make them a mini-subcommand ship?
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
54
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Posted - 2011.12.07 15:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
Lucas Schuyler wrote:This 4th Bonus debate comes up a lot. While an AB bonus makes sense, I think some of the "outside the box" ideas may be better.
The ability to fit a Bomb Launcher lives up the the "assault" part of the name.
Or what about some kind of passive on grid leadership bonus? Make them a mini-subcommand ship?
Honestly the AB bonus just makes sense.....give them the speed to catch a nano'd BC without the dig bloom and it becomes an entirely new ball game.
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Khrage
0
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Posted - 2011.12.07 15:46:00 -
[37] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:No matter what happens: - 1 mid slot is not acceptable and 2 feels pretty limited. - The Hawk needs the 5% Kin bonus replaced with a 10% Kin bonus as the Kestrel has. -Liang
there are other threads where the 1 mid slot issue is taking place, so i won't go into that.
but where have you been? the Hawk got that 10% bonus a while ago |
Alexander Yukari
TerraNovae Workers Trade Federation
8
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Posted - 2011.12.07 16:03:00 -
[38] - Quote
BearJews wrote:why not just give AFs another bonus to afterburners or something, or to scramblers. Something viable for what they currently fit and use. Yeah give both to retribution.
But they could get 4th bonus to AB, sure but I remember there was issue with 10mn AB/MWD fitted on them and achieving crazy speed in tests.
Or just 5% or 10% to base speed per level, fits with assault part. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
131
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Posted - 2011.12.07 16:06:00 -
[39] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Lucas Schuyler wrote:This 4th Bonus debate comes up a lot. While an AB bonus makes sense, I think some of the "outside the box" ideas may be better.
The ability to fit a Bomb Launcher lives up the the "assault" part of the name.
Or what about some kind of passive on grid leadership bonus? Make them a mini-subcommand ship?
Honestly the AB bonus just makes sense.....give them the speed to catch a nano'd BC without the dig bloom and it becomes an entirely new ball game.
There were two issues that came up with the proposed AB boost. The first were AF strapping on cruiser sized AB. That should be easy to code around. The other was that really good AF like the Ishkur and Jaguar further separated ahead of the pack. An AB bonus would be great for ships like the Enyo or Wolf. It can't be a blanket bonus though. |
Meditril
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
20
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Posted - 2011.12.07 16:06:00 -
[40] - Quote
The problem with Assault Ships is that if you are not careful then they will make other classes obsolete. E.g:
- if you add DPS, then you don't need Destroyer any more and they will be by far overpowered. They already have enough DPS.
- if you add Speed, e.g. with an Afterburner bonus then you will render Faction Frigates obsolete.
- if you add Agility, then you will also make Tech 1 Frigates and Faction Frigates more or less onbsolete.
As you see, you have to think out of the box to improve Assault Ships without making them overpowered. They simply need something unique.
If you can agree with me that Assault Ships are meant for fleet operations especially as DPS and tackling support against ships larger then their size then you should also be able to agree with me that a Web Imunity Bonus would be very useful for assault ships. Let's say Web Imunity of 15% per Assault Ship Level. This would significantly improve Assault Ships with Afterburner for anti-blob and under-gun warefare without obsoleting other ship classes. They would be still stoppable with Neutralizers (which at least can be countered a bit with NOS and Cap Booster Charges) and Drones or Smart Bombs, but they will be much less vulnerable and therefore more durable since they will be still able to do some speed tanking even when webbed to hell. |
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Jak'rat
Lion Investments
8
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Posted - 2011.12.07 17:25:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I think any discussion of AFs should consider which ones are good enough vs those that just aren't making the grade. The Ishkur and Jag are widely considered pretty good and when adding a 4th bonus you need to be careful of making them OP. The Hawk, Enyo, and Harpy OTOH are widely considered pretty terrible.
No matter what happens: - 1 mid slot is not acceptable and 2 feels pretty limited. - The Hawk needs the 5% Kin bonus replaced with a 10% Kin bonus as the Kestrel has. The 4th bonus can be ROF or damage or even another tanking bonus for all I care. - Make the ships reasonably fittable with T2 weapons at AWU 4. Bonus points if AWU5 opens up some truly stupendous fits.
-Liang I realise you've been out of the game for a long time, but the Hawk and Harpy are both very solid, and the Enyo's nowhere near as bad as people make out. TBH, in terms of intra-class balance, the AFs are in a pretty good place (with the obvious exception of the Retribution); the problem is that they're collectively kind of lackluster when compared to other ship classes.
Blarpy's are frickin' hilarious after the hybrid buff patch, almost got me a Megathron except for an ammunition issue.... "That's not a ship, it's a flying shotgun..." |
Valea Silpha
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
7
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Posted - 2011.12.07 17:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
It's worth noting that they did trial AFs with an afterburner bonus but they turned out to be radically too good against almost everything, although ironically still not good enough to actually be worth flying, and that if any shows how much work needs to go in to re-vamping AFs.
With the AB bonus, AFs could take pretty much anything 1 vs 1 eventually because they were beating the tracking on large and medium guns and getting into small gun (well small barrage and scorch range) was suicidal for inties because the AFs could take more of a pounding.
Buuuuut Afs were still too slow and lacked tackle bonuses to be good tackle for a gang, and were too thin by miles to be a credible dps threat. AB AFs were amazing ships, but when you are dealing with multiple ships you can't beat all there tracking all the time.
Basically, its really hard to make the AFs useful but not too awesome. They are frigate size, so you can't make them much tankier, you can't give them more DPS without getting ********. Oh and if you make them better tacklers they are just inties mk 2. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
146
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Posted - 2011.12.07 18:16:00 -
[43] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote: I realise you've been out of the game for a long time, but the Hawk and Harpy are both very solid, and the Enyo's nowhere near as bad as people make out. TBH, in terms of intra-class balance, the AFs are in a pretty good place (with the obvious exception of the Retribution); the problem is that they're collectively kind of lackluster when compared to other ship classes.
The Harpy is solid, I agree - and I've been flying it a lot. I don't think I actually mentioned anything about the Harpy? The Hawk and Enyo still seem to me to be steaming piles of crap, and I can't imagine when I'd want to use them. Maybe you can go over why I'd like to use an Enyo instead of one of the other AFs?
Khrage wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:No matter what happens: - 1 mid slot is not acceptable and 2 feels pretty limited. - The Hawk needs the 5% Kin bonus replaced with a 10% Kin bonus as the Kestrel has. -Liang there are other threads where the 1 mid slot issue is taking place, so i won't go into that. but where have you been? the Hawk got that 10% bonus a while ago
Huh, I remembered the Hawk getting boosted a few years back - but I don't remember it getting the 10% kin bonus. I do actually own a couple of Hawks but I don't fly them because their performance is extremely underwhelming.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
31
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Posted - 2011.12.07 19:34:00 -
[44] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Tsubutai wrote: I realise you've been out of the game for a long time, but the Hawk and Harpy are both very solid, and the Enyo's nowhere near as bad as people make out. TBH, in terms of intra-class balance, the AFs are in a pretty good place (with the obvious exception of the Retribution); the problem is that they're collectively kind of lackluster when compared to other ship classes.
The Harpy is solid, I agree - and I've been flying it a lot. I don't think I actually mentioned anything about the Harpy? The Hawk and Enyo still seem to me to be steaming piles of crap, and I can't imagine when I'd want to use them. Maybe you can go over why I'd like to use an Enyo instead of one of the other AFs? Re: the Harpy, you said "The Hawk, Enyo, and Harpy OTOH are widely considered pretty terrible" in the post I responded to.
As for the Enyo, it's big selling point is the DPS and ability to apply that DPS, paired with a fairly meaty tank even if you don't fit a plate (8k EHP with just a damage control and an explosive hardener). The range bonus means you can hit more or less all the way across scram range with null, and the tracking bonus paired with the 20% increase in blaster tracking means that even in a neutron setup with null or void loaded, you track almost as well as unbonused 125mm autocannons with faction ammo (0.49 rad/s versus 0.52 rad/s). This gives you a lot of flexibility in terms of how you approach a fight as well as good scope for engaging larger ships and chewing through their tank in a reasonably timely fashion; it also makes the ship something of a drone chainsaw. The buff has given it rather nice speed and agility as well, at least compared to other AFs. |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
132
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 21:19:00 -
[45] - Quote
I have to agree with Liang that the Enyo is meh. The Wolf puts out 294 DPS with 11.7km of falloff or 235 DPS with 17.5km of falloff. My fit gets 5.8k EHP but also packs a small nuet.
I can get 357 blaster DPS with Federation Antimatter and a 4.06km falloff. Optimal of 1.9km. Or 269 DPS with 5.08km of falloff. Optimal of 4.85km.
The wolf is simply much better at projecting it's DPS over range. That paper advantage on EFT that the Enyo gets is exactly that - a paper advantage.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
146
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Posted - 2011.12.07 22:10:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote: Re: the Harpy, you said "The Hawk, Enyo, and Harpy OTOH are widely considered pretty terrible" in the post I responded to.
Ok, sure. I see why you're saying that. I was really pointing out perception not personal belief there - I personally fly it and enjoy it. It was meant to be more commentary on the disparity between AF performance and to be careful not to apply blanket bonuses like "+10% Afterburner velocity/level".
Quote: As for the Enyo, it's big selling point is the DPS and ability to apply that DPS, paired with a fairly meaty tank even if you don't fit a plate (8k EHP with just a damage control and an explosive hardener). The range bonus means you can hit more or less all the way across scram range with null, and the tracking bonus paired with the 20% increase in blaster tracking means that even in a neutron setup with null or void loaded, you track almost as well as unbonused 125mm autocannons with faction ammo (0.49 rad/s versus 0.52 rad/s). This gives you a lot of flexibility in terms of how you approach a fight as well as good scope for engaging larger ships and chewing through their tank in a reasonably timely fashion; it also makes the ship something of a drone chainsaw. The buff has given it rather nice speed and agility as well, at least compared to other AFs.
Hm. I promise I'll take a look at it again, but I remember being utterly underwhelmed by it when I compared it to the Harpy. I seem to regularly be tanking 6-8k raw hitpoints before going down with my active tanked Blarpies.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
31
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Posted - 2011.12.07 22:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
Came to an AF ROLE thread expecting lots of "gimme gimme" and not much discussion of title.
Did not leave disappointed. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
146
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Posted - 2011.12.07 22:42:00 -
[48] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Came to an AF ROLE thread expecting lots of "gimme gimme" and not much discussion of title.
Did not leave disappointed.
Perhaps you should make a role suggestion? :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
31
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Posted - 2011.12.07 22:59:00 -
[49] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Came to an AF ROLE thread expecting lots of "gimme gimme" and not much discussion of title.
Did not leave disappointed. Perhaps you should make a role suggestion? :) -Liang
How about: Tankier-Gankier Frigate used for fighting other frigates and destroyers in small gangs (1-5).
Oh wait. They already do that job pretty well.
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Nikollai Tesla
Crytec Enterprises SRS.
12
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Posted - 2011.12.07 23:05:00 -
[50] - Quote
4th Bonus 200% Cap recharge per level.
Basically give assault ships really good cap recharge.
*Can active tank well with that extra cap. *Has better Neut protection, compared to other frigs *Can offensive Neut much better.
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Khrage
0
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Posted - 2011.12.07 23:53:00 -
[51] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:How about: Tankier-Gankier Frigate used for fighting other frigates and destroyers in small gangs (1-5).
Oh wait. They already do that job pretty well.
obviously not up to par with popular belief and what CCP has in mind for them since they ARE getting buffed, and just got delayed off of Crucible. so regardless of how well you think they are doing their job, they are going to be doing it better sooner than later. as far as changing the role goes, that's not going to happen, and like always, CCP doesn't listen to crazy ideas one person posts on the forum that changes game dynamics completely.
Nikollai Tesla wrote:4th Bonus 200% Cap recharge per level.
Basically give assault ships really good cap recharge.
*Can active tank well with that extra cap. *Has better Neut protection, compared to other frigs *Can offensive Neut much better.
the idea to making them more resilient in way of cap is a solid idea, but neuting/EWAR isn't their role. and like Liang said...
Liang Nuren wrote: ... be careful not to apply blanket bonuses like "+10% Afterburner velocity/level".
a blanket effect won't be satisfactory. each one will need to be looked at and determined what is best for the ship in terms of buffing, balance, and role fulfillment. |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
31
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Posted - 2011.12.08 00:19:00 -
[52] - Quote
Khrage wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:How about: Tankier-Gankier Frigate used for fighting other frigates and destroyers in small gangs (1-5).
Oh wait. They already do that job pretty well.
obviously not up to par with popular belief and what CCP has in mind for them since they ARE getting buffed, and just got delayed off of Crucible. so regardless of how well you think they are doing their job, they are going to be doing it better sooner than later.
Actually CCP has said that they do not actually evaluate platforms until they decide to do a balancing pass. So far all that has been indicated is that CCP is aware of popular sentiments (and possible fixes), and they are going to initiate the balancing process. For all we know they may decide that AF's are just fine.
As to me being wrong about my estimation that AF's generally fulfill thier role: I in no way indicated that there was no room for improvement in that role. With the hybrid changes, Dram "nerf", and destroyer "buff" AF's may indeed need improvements in the role (we will have to see where the dust settles). All I am pointing out is that they have a role, and if people do not like that role they should state thier ideas of what the new role should be. The gimme-gimme's are merely throwing bonuses out. Bonuses are not roles. Nor is it prudent, in a game like EVE, to give bonuses arbitrarily with the hope that a role will magically manifest itself after the fact. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
146
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Posted - 2011.12.08 02:38:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ok. I'm looking at the Enyo right now and I'm totally underwhelmed when comparing it to the Ishkur. It isn't noticeably faster, it doesn't have much more HP, it doesn't do much more DPS, and its at a tracking disadvantage given the fact it can't sport a web. Do you have a specific Enyo fit you're suggesting is competitive?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
46
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Posted - 2011.12.08 02:48:00 -
[54] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=38003&p=3
Self quoting the teh best.
Ines Tegator wrote: I suggest to following (somewhat obvious) role: they assault things. To be more specific, they should be a rapid assault platform that brings quick strike ability and mobility to a small gang.
I suggest the following straightforward bonus to define this. Role Bonus: Increases the Turret Signal Resolution/Missile Explosion Radius (as appropriate for hull) and also increases damage.
The idea is that the AF will do increased damage vs cruiser sized targets, but it's damage and role vs other frigates remains as unchanged as possible. |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
31
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Posted - 2011.12.08 02:56:00 -
[55] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Ok. I'm looking at the Enyo right now and I'm totally underwhelmed when comparing it to the Ishkur. It isn't noticeably faster, it doesn't have much more HP, it doesn't do much more DPS, and its at a tracking disadvantage given the fact it can't sport a web. Do you have a specific Enyo fit you're suggesting is competitive?
-Liang
If you fly a Blarpy you know how to deal with being sans web. The tracking bonus just makes it easier to get quality hits when in range. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
146
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Posted - 2011.12.08 03:07:00 -
[56] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Ok. I'm looking at the Enyo right now and I'm totally underwhelmed when comparing it to the Ishkur. It isn't noticeably faster, it doesn't have much more HP, it doesn't do much more DPS, and its at a tracking disadvantage given the fact it can't sport a web. Do you have a specific Enyo fit you're suggesting is competitive?
-Liang If you fly a Blarpy you know how to deal with being sans web. The tracking bonus just makes it easier to get quality hits when in range.
I ask again: do you have a specific fit for the Enyo that you think is competitive?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
134
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Posted - 2011.12.08 03:15:00 -
[57] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Ok. I'm looking at the Enyo right now and I'm totally underwhelmed when comparing it to the Ishkur. It isn't noticeably faster, it doesn't have much more HP, it doesn't do much more DPS, and its at a tracking disadvantage given the fact it can't sport a web. Do you have a specific Enyo fit you're suggesting is competitive?
-Liang If you fly a Blarpy you know how to deal with being sans web. The tracking bonus just makes it easier to get quality hits when in range. I ask again: do you have a specific fit for the Enyo that you think is competitive? -Liang
I'll take a stab at that for giggles.
Enyo: High: Light Nuetron Blaster II x 4 Arbalast Rocket Launcher Mid: Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler Low: F85 Damage Control Reactive Plating II MFS II TE II Rigs: Hybrid Collision Hybrid Burst
Warrior II |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
146
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Posted - 2011.12.08 03:36:00 -
[58] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Ok. I'm looking at the Enyo right now and I'm totally underwhelmed when comparing it to the Ishkur. It isn't noticeably faster, it doesn't have much more HP, it doesn't do much more DPS, and its at a tracking disadvantage given the fact it can't sport a web. Do you have a specific Enyo fit you're suggesting is competitive?
-Liang If you fly a Blarpy you know how to deal with being sans web. The tracking bonus just makes it easier to get quality hits when in range. I ask again: do you have a specific fit for the Enyo that you think is competitive? -Liang I'll take a stab at that for giggles. Enyo: High: Light Nuetron Blaster II x 4 Arbalast Rocket Launcher Mid: Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler Low: F85 Damage Control Reactive Plating II MFS II TE II Rigs: Hybrid Collision Hybrid Burst Warrior II
Copy pasted the fit to an Ishkur. Traded TE for a web. Sacrifices 61 m/s and 8 DPS for way better range, damage type selection, ECM drones, more HP, and a web.
[Ishkur, Enyo Replacement] Reactive Plating II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S [empty high slot]
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Hobgoblin II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
134
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Posted - 2011.12.08 03:49:00 -
[59] - Quote
Oh No! We suck again! |
Smabs
Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD.
7
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Posted - 2011.12.08 05:00:00 -
[60] - Quote
The enyo really isn't that bad. On the other hand an ishkur is basically better all around excepting that it has significantly less of a tank.
I used to fit them like this:
[Enyo, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Adaptive Nano Plating II
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S [empty high slot]
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator II Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Hobgoblin II x1
The thing about enyos is that they were about 9 mil with 4-5 mil insurance. Not sure about now but it used to be just about the cheapest t2 frigate and was capable of having a go at almost any other AF, faction frigate, dictor or destroyer in the game. Lots of people die to enyos because they think they can't track or have no range - neither of which are actually true. |
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