Why not make oversized weapons for Assault Frigs?

It's called a stealth bomber.

AF Role: RvB

QFT

As for frigates with oversized guns... stealth bombers, anyone! baha.

Really though, in regards to assault frigs, they're meant to be tanky. For that reason, I would think that them having cruiser equivelant dps (which frankly some already seem to) would make them overpowered where having battleship dps on a fragile battlecruiser doesnt seem so bad.

If anything, I think they need to revise the mids/tank on the caldari equivelants a hair, or the pg, but that might just be me. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt the role of assault frigates supposed to be -heavy tacklers-? Doesnt seem to make alot of sense putting big guns on a tackler. Oh well.

Just some thoughts coming out, any other ideas?
Ced

I'd rather see BS hulls with medium guns/launchers.

Not sure if serious.

If you are serious, there's nothing stopping you from downsizing the weapons on your BS. People just don't do it because it's stupid and battlecruisers perform better in that role.

If you're not serious, I done got trolled.

Oversized weapons crossed my mind as well. It's a niche that hasn't been filled and makes sense. Of course never bet on CCP making sense! The next question would be, "Are HACS obsoleted by such a change?" The wolf with two damage bonuses, a falloff bonus, and a rate of fire bonus would do more damage with 4 medium guns then the vaga with 5.

I could see a high sec mini-dread battleship for high sec POS wars.

... I could see a high sec mini-dread battleship for high sec POS wars...

Compared to the new designed destroyers, AF are going to have a hard time. Why not make the 4th bonus a tank bonus to reduce their sig or improve their resists? Some AF already have tanking bonuses but some Command ships have double tank bonuses so there is precedent.

I don't think the oversized weapons is a great idea but they could have a bomb launcher fitting bonus. Give the bomb launcher another ship to be fitted on and the AF a bonus weapon that would be fun to play with in hordes ;)

I think any discussion of AFs should consider which ones are good enough vs those that just aren't making the grade. The Ishkur and Jag are widely considered pretty good and when adding a 4th bonus you need to be careful of making them OP. The Hawk, Enyo, and Harpy OTOH are widely considered pretty terrible.

No matter what happens:
- 1 mid slot is not acceptable and 2 feels pretty limited.
- The Hawk needs the 5% Kin bonus replaced with a 10% Kin bonus as the Kestrel has. The 4th bonus can be ROF or damage or even another tanking bonus for all I care.
- Make the ships reasonably fittable with T2 weapons at AWU 4. Bonus points if AWU5 opens up some truly stupendous fits.

-Liang

AF Role: RvB

I think any discussion of AFs should consider which ones are good enough vs those that just aren't making the grade. The Ishkur and Jag are widely considered pretty good and when adding a 4th bonus you need to be careful of making them OP. The Hawk, Enyo, and Harpy OTOH are widely considered pretty terrible.

No matter what happens:
- 1 mid slot is not acceptable and 2 feels pretty limited.
- The Hawk needs the 5% Kin bonus replaced with a 10% Kin bonus as the Kestrel has. The 4th bonus can be ROF or damage or even another tanking bonus for all I care.
- Make the ships reasonably fittable with T2 weapons at AWU 4. Bonus points if AWU5 opens up some truly stupendous fits.

-Liang

This 4th Bonus debate comes up a lot. While an AB bonus makes sense, I think some of the "outside the box" ideas may be better.

The ability to fit a Bomb Launcher lives up the the "assault" part of the name.

Or what about some kind of passive on grid leadership bonus? Make them a mini-subcommand ship?

No matter what happens:
- 1 mid slot is not acceptable and 2 feels pretty limited.
- The Hawk needs the 5% Kin bonus replaced with a 10% Kin bonus as the Kestrel has.
-Liang

why not just give AFs another bonus to afterburners or something, or to scramblers. Something viable for what they currently fit and use.

Honestly the AB bonus just makes sense.....give them the speed to catch a nano'd BC without the dig bloom and it becomes an entirely new ball game.

I realise you've been out of the game for a long time, but the Hawk and Harpy are both very solid, and the Enyo's nowhere near as bad as people make out. TBH, in terms of intra-class balance, the AFs are in a pretty good place (with the obvious exception of the Retribution); the problem is that they're collectively kind of lackluster when compared to other ship classes.

I realise you've been out of the game for a long time, but the Hawk and Harpy are both very solid, and the Enyo's nowhere near as bad as people make out. TBH, in terms of intra-class balance, the AFs are in a pretty good place (with the obvious exception of the Retribution); the problem is that they're collectively kind of lackluster when compared to other ship classes.

there are other threads where the 1 mid slot issue is taking place, so i won't go into that.

but where have you been? the Hawk got that 10% bonus a while ago

The Harpy is solid, I agree - and I've been flying it a lot. I don't think I actually mentioned anything about the Harpy? The Hawk and Enyo still seem to me to be steaming piles of crap, and I can't imagine when I'd want to use them. Maybe you can go over why I'd like to use an Enyo instead of one of the other AFs?

Re: the Harpy, you said "The Hawk, Enyo, and Harpy OTOH are widely considered pretty terrible" in the post I responded to.

As for the Enyo, it's big selling point is the DPS and ability to apply that DPS, paired with a fairly meaty tank even if you don't fit a plate (8k EHP with just a damage control and an explosive hardener). The range bonus means you can hit more or less all the way across scram range with null, and the tracking bonus paired with the 20% increase in blaster tracking means that even in a neutron setup with null or void loaded, you track almost as well as unbonused 125mm autocannons with faction ammo (0.49 rad/s versus 0.52 rad/s). This gives you a lot of flexibility in terms of how you approach a fight as well as good scope for engaging larger ships and chewing through their tank in a reasonably timely fashion; it also makes the ship something of a drone chainsaw. The buff has given it rather nice speed and agility as well, at least compared to other AFs.

Came to an AF ROLE thread expecting lots of "gimme gimme" and not much discussion of title.


Did not leave disappointed.

Perhaps you should make a role suggestion? :)

-Liang

How about: Tankier-Gankier Frigate used for fighting other frigates and destroyers in small gangs (1-5).

Oh wait. They already do that job pretty well.

4th Bonus 200% Cap recharge per level.

Basically give assault ships really good cap recharge.

*Can active tank well with that extra cap.
*Has better Neut protection, compared to other frigs
*Can offensive Neut much better.

... be careful not to apply blanket bonuses like "+10% Afterburner velocity/level".

obviously not up to par with popular belief and what CCP has in mind for them since they ARE getting buffed, and just got delayed off of Crucible. so regardless of how well you think they are doing their job, they are going to be doing it better sooner than later.

I suggest to following (somewhat obvious) role: they assault things. To be more specific, they should be a rapid assault platform that brings quick strike ability and mobility to a small gang.

I suggest the following straightforward bonus to define this.
Role Bonus: Increases the Turret Signal Resolution/Missile Explosion Radius (as appropriate for hull) and also increases damage.

The idea is that the AF will do increased damage vs cruiser sized targets, but it's damage and role vs other frigates remains as unchanged as possible.

Ok. I'm looking at the Enyo right now and I'm totally underwhelmed when comparing it to the Ishkur. It isn't noticeably faster, it doesn't have much more HP, it doesn't do much more DPS, and its at a tracking disadvantage given the fact it can't sport a web. Do you have a specific Enyo fit you're suggesting is competitive?

-Liang

If you fly a Blarpy you know how to deal with being sans web. The tracking bonus just makes it easier to get quality hits when in range.

I ask again: do you have a specific fit for the Enyo that you think is competitive?

-Liang

I'll take a stab at that for giggles.

Enyo:
High:
Light Nuetron Blaster II x 4
Arbalast Rocket Launcher
Mid:
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low:
F85 Damage Control
Reactive Plating II
MFS II
TE II
Rigs:
Hybrid Collision
Hybrid Burst

Warrior II

When I compare similar fit Punisher and Retribution my main problem is:
- Why I am penelized in speed, agility and point abilitys when I invest more training time and MUCH more money?

I sugest:
- remove weight penalty to equalize speed and agility compared to T1
- additional bonus 5% BASE agility and speed peer Assault Ship Level
(and in some cases re-designe the layout like Retribution -1 high +1 med)

Interceptors will still be MUCH faster and MUCH more agile (+ lower sig radius). Cruisers will still have more DPS and EHP. Assault would just be what they should be: hard hitting Frigats.

Ok, sure. I see why you're saying that. I was really pointing out perception not personal belief there - I personally fly it and enjoy it. It was meant to be more commentary on the disparity between AF performance and to be careful not to apply blanket bonuses like "+10% Afterburner velocity/level".



Hm. I promise I'll take a look at it again, but I remember being utterly underwhelmed by it when I compared it to the Harpy. I seem to regularly be tanking 6-8k raw hitpoints before going down with my active tanked Blarpies.

-Liang

Liang, sometimes I think you are full of ****, but most of the time I find your posts reasonably correct and informative :)

I'm going to agree with Tsubutai, the enyo is a great ship. It's 350 or so paper dps out of a frigate is pretty good. It can also usually apply it. Probably not the best choice for frigate vs frigate battles due to lack of mids, but if you're in a frig gang going after a few cruisers or whatever, the enyo is a great choice. It's all situational of course just like everything. Either way, If a frig gang is rolling out and I have a choice between an ishkur or enyo, I'll be taking the enyo.