Marellus your ability to imbue me with a level of malevolence towards the Federation never ceases to amaze.

with the Gallente dragging the Minmatar into their war against the State, who else was the State to ally with?

A gripe within the Federation, not so much a personal gripe but still something that doesn't sit right with me, is the similarities between incidents and the reactions to them within the State.

Terrorists bomb Nouvelle Rouvenour, it's the tipping point that begins bombards, receives constant criticism that the Caldari were attacked for the actions of terrorists.

Noir orchestrates the Malkalen incident, it's the incident that leads to the massacre at Algogille the assault on Caldari Prime, the placement of a State Titan in a Federal system and the rebirth of the Federal/State war. Apparently all justified in response to a Federal (despite disavowed in every official and near unofficial *conspiracy theorists aside* capacity) attack.


Man crashes a Super Carrier into a station, kills thousands of innocents, decried as a monster, traitor, terrorist and shamed.

Man crashes a Carrier into a planet, kills thousands of innocents, praised as a hero, is a cornerstone of education and an eternal legend in State folklore.

Honestly? Call me a Hawk, but that was part of a series of weak, knee-jerk panic reactions by Foiritan. He quickly conceded Caldari Prime, and under the threat of the Shiigeru in Luminaire signed concessions that threw Intaki, his ancestral homeworld, in the line of fire. If anything the Intaki were betrayed by the man they voted in themselves, not that it in any way it puts the blame on them, but it was something the Federation learned all too late.

Foiritan was a great peace time leader, who could oversee positive diplomacy and economical growth, but had no clue what the hell to do when **** hit the fan.

The day the guns stop firing is a day I'll be drinking to remember and celebrate something, and not to cope with the day that was.

Well, when you outright lie about the Federation, what else are we to think, you ******* idiot?

So, you're saying the State and the Republic would have been at war regardless of the Federation/Republic alliance?

Honestly, the only good thing I see coming out of Foiritan calling Heth's bluff would have been everyone finding out who the man truly was five years early. As valuable a moment of ephiphany as this would have been for the State, I'd rather not have it bought for the price of a devastated Gallente Prime.

It honestly might have been smarter to simply yield Caldari Prime back to the State.

So, you're saying the State and the Republic would have been at war regardless of the Federation/Republic alliance?

No. Forget it. I'm not in the mood to explain to a ******* capsuleer how powerblocs and military alliances work. The moment that became neccessary, the outlay of effort and engagement required to continue having this discussion immediately began to vastly exceed the possible benefit it could possibly produce.

You are deliberately using misleading language to malign the Federation.

I'd say misleading language is used more often by Federalists

Even if this were true, as a hypothetical it has precisely zero relevance to the misleading language Pieter is actually using right now.

Then by your twisted logic, the Amarr were "dragged into" a war with the Federation by the State.

... unlike that between the Federation and Republic where the Federal Senate has enough political and economic leverage to "persuade" the Minmatar to act against their own self-interests.

We crossed the border because a Gallente Admiral stuffed a Nyx into a station in the Malkalen system killing... well... I don't really need to finish that sentence, do I?

But really, trade is good, isn't it? Perhaps I'm not being the face of Kaalakiota as well as I should, but I am convinced that the rest of the cluster has things of value and interest for us. And people of value and interest for us, too.

They really don't need persuasion for that.

Please, do not use blanket statements like "they" when making references such as this, unless you wish others to return the favor? It's tacky.

Rest assured, the lion's share of my people are well aware that the recent spate of self destructive stupidity from my government is not in our best interests.

Then by your twisted logic, the Amarr were "dragged into" a war with the Federation by the State.

I like you, Pieter.

Noir was an envoy of the Federation, granted safe passage because of this. He was handpicked by the Federation and flying one of their flagships. He rammed a station that was the site of a peace conference, under a flag of truce.

Nouvelle Rouvenor was bombed by terrorists, holding no mandate from the State.


Noir crashed a Super Carrier into a station holding a peace conference. He was either an agent of the Federation or else running the mother of all false-flag operations. There was no state of war. His action saved no lives, touched off a war that is still raging.

Except that two powers as ideologically opposed and expansionistic as the Federation and the Empire would have moved against each other eventually, anyway.

Even if the aid you gave the Minmatar hadn't already given them a cause for war.

I'm sure the Caldari capsuleers are trying to keep face, but I find it hard to believe that a State where the largest constituent is an arms manufacturer wants universal peace, love, and a total end to all war.

I was never under the impression the Caldari found war all that abhorrent, with all the romanticism of it in State media and the education system. One of the greatest heroes of the State, for example, is someone responsible for the deaths of two million civilians (that allowed the evacuation ships to escape, granted, but we can't cherrypick history). In contrast, one of the greatest heroes of the Federation is someone who ended that war and brought about the foundation of CONCORD.

I still fail to see the difference between Malkalen and Nouvelle Rouvenor...

Both were terrorist attacks and condemned by their respective governments.

The State claims that the Federation try to hide their implication in Malkalen by condemning Noir, the Federation blamed the State to have secretly backed Nouvelle Rouvenor in the past. Where is the difference ?



Except nothing of the sort has happened yet, besides that proxy war. The only thing that has happened between the Federation and the Empire has always been small incidents quickly solved by mutually beneficial agreements (Iyen-Oursta/Quafe), or convergent ideals on cluster politics (Aidonis/Heideran).

You are trying to create/seee conflict where there is only in the mass media.

I was never under the impression the Caldari found war all that abhorrent, with all the romanticism of it in State media and the education system. One of the greatest heroes of the State, for example, is someone responsible for the deaths of two million civilians (that allowed the evacuation ships to escape, granted, but we can't cherrypick history). In contrast, one of the greatest heroes of the Federation is someone who ended that war and brought about the foundation of CONCORD.

I'm sure the Caldari capsuleers are trying to keep face, but I find it hard to believe that a State where the largest constituent is an arms manufacturer wants universal peace, love, and a total end to all war.

Preaching Alarmist theories now, Tuulinen ?

Of course there is no difference, can you show me a single one, except that they share different skins for the same model ?

You think that it might well be the Federation that commanded him to crash his supercarrier - with thousands of crew, materials and valuable assets in the process - but you still have doubts. Some Federation bigots thought exactly the same thing with Nouvelle Rouvenor and they also tried to suppress doubt since they were unable to bring up any proof and were as much as in the dark than us regarding Malkalen. The State also had no "concrete proof" that those Caldari terrorists were working alone, right ?

And what do you mean by "orbital shields" ? The defense systems of the station ? Those are not gallente systems, right ? Are you accusing Ishukone of being just incompetent, or slipping into conspiracy theories even more about some gallente infiltration team that would have conveniently sabotaged it ?

Gallente... Caldari... Only thing that changes is whose flags are flying and who is puffing up over being in charge of our home system on any given day. My homeworld gets ping ponged back and forth in this war, that's just the way it is.

Independence is a nice dream, and as much as I like the thought of an free Intaki its pretty much just that, a dream...

No matter who is in charge, though, life on Intaki goes on...