| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 .. 13 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2343
   |
Posted - 2013.11.15 16:22:00 -
[241] - Quote
We can, it seems, argue about a great deal more than that. I could, equally validly, say that the core of the Federation is a belief in the selfish indulgence of individual whim and appetites and equally claim that you merely have to crack a history book to see how that goes.
If you disagree with Meritocracy, Collectivism and the other true founding principles of the State then say so, but don't proffer ignorance and prejudice in such a manner that we're supposed to believe you're being reasonable.
The bottom line is that if the Federation was no more than a celebration of vice, then it wouldn't have endured as it has and if the State was no more than a celebration of greed then we would never have obtained and kept our independence from it. |
Mitchell Striker
Eos Corporation
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 16:43:00 -
[242] - Quote
On point one, you could indeed claim that. But as the Federation is the only actual democracy that exists in New Eden, I think you'll be hard pressed to find such an example.
On point two, meritocracy? Come now, we all know that in the State it's wealth and status that talks. Isk is power, we have a name for that sort of society. It's called plutocracy. You're ruled by CEO's.
And on point three, we agree. We will see if the State stands the test of time or if (as I expect) it will collapse under the weight of its own materialistic greed, competition and accompanying corruption. |
Anslo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
3489
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 16:45:00 -
[243] - Quote
Mitchell Striker wrote:And on point three, we agree. We will see if the State stands the test of time or if (as I expect) it will collapse under the weight of its own materialistic greed, competition and accompanying corruption.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAA.
HAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA
Oh, that's funny...wait you were serious about comparing the State's 'greed' to what the Fed has?
Huh, let me laugh even harder then.
BAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAA!!!
|
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
The 11th Hour Alliance
2403
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 16:51:00 -
[244] - Quote
Mitchell Striker wrote:But the fact remains, the Federation has at its core, ideals.
So too does the State. They are merely different ideals. I personally consider the State's ideals to be superior ones, but I'm not so arrogant as to believe that is anything other than my subjective valuation, and I neither see nor feel any moral obligation to bring our superior ideals to the people who judge differently.
It's up to the consumer to buy their preferred product, after all.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|
Mitchell Striker
Eos Corporation
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:01:00 -
[245] - Quote
The State is a collection of Corporations, its ideals are largely propaganda much like the Amarrs beliefs could easily be labelled dogmatic faith used to subvert and control. What practical influence do they have on a citizens every day lives? That is what you have to ask. And the answer is as clear as a nova.
In the Federation any one can become President, in what other nation can that be said to be true?
You may claim that in the State if one is able to prove themselves capable they might rise to the lofty position of CEO of a megacorporation, but is it personal merit and patriotism that achieves that? Does everyone have the opportunity to prove themselves in such a fashion? Is the system fair and balanced? Of course it isn't. Who knows how many great leaders the State has discarded unfairly.
The Federation is far from perfect, I will be the first to admit that. But when I was growing up on Gallente Prime, I didn't come to believe in the ideals of the Federation (and later fight for them) because I was indoctrinated to. I did so because I saw them in practice every day, the Federation has something none of the other nations have.
And that is true freedom, freedom to find your true self and be that person. No matter how many corrupt or incompetent leaders come and go, that foundation remains and that freedom remains to the Federations citizens. |
Iwan Terpalen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
74
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:06:00 -
[246] - Quote
Mitchell Striker wrote:In the Federation any one can become President, in what other nation can that be said to be true?
You're a funny man, Striker. I don't know a lot of Gallentean street-sweepers that became President; do you?
I do know an MTAC driver that became pretty much the same thing, over here.
He was kind of an *******.
|
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1342
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:10:00 -
[247] - Quote
Sir,
I'm glad to see a new face. Hello :)
If anyone in the Federation can grow up to be President, why are your Presidents always from the wealthy elite? I'm no Federal history buff, but that seems to be the case.
I think that perhaps your powerful and well-made arguments could be aimed against the Federation by changing very few words, I fear. |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
The 11th Hour Alliance
2404
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:10:00 -
[248] - Quote
Mitchell Striker wrote:The State is a collection of Corporations, its ideals are largely propaganda.
Are corporations not allowed to have ideals?
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|
Mitchell Striker
Eos Corporation
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:10:00 -
[249] - Quote
I don't know about you, but I probably wouldn't vote for a street-sweeper to lead a nation.
There is however nothing stopping said street-sweeper from running for election. He won't be dismissed based on his wallet or his birthplace or his genetics.
It's the voters who'll decide, as it should be. As all citizens contribute to a nations existence, so to should all have a say in its future. |
Anslo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
3489
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:15:00 -
[250] - Quote
Voters? You mean the voters swarmed with campaign ads and pseudo-propaganda from richer candidates who can afford it? OK great, he can run. So what? The action and effort is futile unless he actually had a chance to win. That's like saying I'm better than some miner in Dodixie because I went flying blindly into nulsec and shot at a single Goonswarm vessel before dying.
Sure I had the balls to go do it, but the outcome of the effort is meaningless. Nothing. Same with the sweeper. Great, he has the freedom and balls to run for President. But he doesn't have a chance in hell against the people who can run a campaign against him with far, FAR more isk.
True freedom would be said sweeper running, and being elected not because he could out-advertise his opponents or line the right pockets, but because he's very, very clever.
|
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
The 11th Hour Alliance
2405
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:21:00 -
[251] - Quote
Ah, the old "we're better because everybody can vote" argument.
In the spirit of friendly international relations, I should point out that waving around a democratic institution which we largely consider to be stupid and naive is unlikely to impress us of the superiority of your government.
We don't value democracy. Which means that you cannot use democracy to impress us. okay? You may as well attempt to convince a vegetarian that your breakfast is superior to theirs because your breakfast has bacon.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2345
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:27:00 -
[252] - Quote
Oh good grief. Tell me you're one of Blacque's men amusing himself on a slack day at the office?
First, can I point out the arrant nonsense that is you debating me on what the life of an average State citizen is like? I didn't spring straight out of the Tube and into a Pod, you know? I spent a good two decades as an entry level Peace & Order patrol officer in one of our orbital communities.
That means I've seen the best and worst of State society - from attending domestic confrontations and illegal narcotics seizures on the Executive Decks to breaking up drunken brawls in the prole bars and tidying up after Guri knife fights in the disenfranchised quarter. I'm no scion of an Executive family, I'm a real living and breathing son of the State and I know our society, warts and all.
It also means that I know how real Heiian and Meritocracy and the other pillars of a life dedicated to the service of my Corporation and my Kirjuun (which is really one and the same thing). You might be able to convince your buddies at a coffeehaus on the Caille University campus that you're a brave freedom fighter struggling against the Evil Overlords of the State - but you're going to have to actually use real ideas based on real facts and experiences. |
Mitchell Striker
Eos Corporation
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:12:00 -
[253] - Quote
"Oh good grief. Tell me you're one of Blacque's men amusing himself on a slack day at the office?"
I can't comment on that.
I just want to be clear that I'm not passing judgement upon anyone, in fact I respect you Tuulinen. If not as a citizen, at least as a fellow soldier.
By the way, I didn't sign up to fight against the State, so you can tone down on that particular line of hyperbole. The Federations concerns are rather more diverse than a few misguided megacorps on our border, as troublesome as they may be of late.
I continue to foster the hope that one day our respective nations can and will set aside our differences, our ideals may not be wholly compatible but in the interests of our respective citizenry we should strive to achieve peaceful coexistence.
The recent bloodshed, especially upon Caldari Prime, has proven itself unjustified. Blood for memories, death for political gain. Does that seem right to you? |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force
Cult of War
1608
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:14:00 -
[254] - Quote
I find it painfully ironic that citizens of a nation led entirely by wealthy CEOs is criticizing the Federation for electing businessmen and aristocrats.
Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Anslo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
3491
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:24:00 -
[255] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:I find it painfully ironic that citizens of a nation led entirely by wealthy CEOs is criticizing the Federation for electing businessmen and aristocrats.
Aaaaaand vice versa.
|
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1342
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:24:00 -
[256] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:I find it painfully ironic that citizens of a nation led entirely by wealthy CEOs is criticizing the Federation for electing businessmen and aristocrats. I think it was more about the claim that anyone could be the Federal President, sir. I at least have no issue with the President being a businessman. It seems quite sensible.
And, Mr Striker, I'm afraid that you were passing judgement on the State. You judged us to be concerned solely with ISK, and then condemned us to failure for it. That's why we're reacting as such.
Profit comes in many forms; ISK is only one column in the balace book. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force
Cult of War
1608
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:31:00 -
[257] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:I find it painfully ironic that citizens of a nation led entirely by wealthy CEOs is criticizing the Federation for electing businessmen and aristocrats. I think it was more about the claim that anyone could be the Federal President, sir. I at least have no issue with the President being a businessman. It seems quite sensible.
In theory anyone could become President. In practice is another story however.
Both the State and the Federation have systems that *should* gaurantee equality. Though anyone with eyes can see that niether nation has suceeded.
Total equality is impossible, people will always have advantages and disadvantages. This imperfection is perhaps, what makes us truly human. We are not drones.
Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
1342
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:39:00 -
[258] - Quote
I agree sir! We aren't so different. I think that's why I get a little upset when I see the States' system of governance so maligned. We should celebrate our differences as well as our similarities, and not let them cause more trouble than needs be. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2347
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 18:57:00 -
[259] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:I find it painfully ironic that citizens of a nation led entirely by wealthy CEOs are criticizing the Federation for electing businessmen and aristocrats.
See, the mistake you're making is in looking at the fact that only CEOs rule instead of looking at what has to happen for someone to become a CEO. It is entirely possible for a family to ascend to the heavens of the Executive boardroom from a history of Janitorial service and just as possible for a family to make the journey in the opposite direction.
|
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2347
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 19:03:00 -
[260] - Quote
Mitchell Striker wrote:The recent bloodshed, especially upon Caldari Prime, has proven itself unjustified. Blood for memories, death for political gain. Does that seem right to you?
Let me be as forthright with you as I possibly can, sir. I am overjoyed that Ishukone and the Senate were able to finally broker a diplomatic deal over the fate of Caldari Prime. It is a settlement that I feel is equitable, under the circumstance, and it's one that I can definitely work with. I opened a very expensive bottle on the day that it was signed.
However you should be aware that I would also have been more than happy to escort the Shiigeru to Gallente Prime and fly close escort whilst she converted the entire surface of that world to slag if that was what it would have taken to reclaim Home. I feel our liberation of Home was more than justified, because it was the price of making you hear our voice. It has taken me time to accept that Highlander was also justified, because it was the price of making us hear your voice.
Caldari feet tread Home again. Caldari lungs breath Home's air. There isn't much I wouldn't consider justified to have made that happen. |
Anslo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
3491
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 19:07:00 -
[261] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:However you should be aware that I would also have been more than happy to escort the Shiigeru to Gallente Prime and fly close escort whilst she converted the entire surface of that world to slag if that was what it would have taken to reclaim Home.
Suuolo, let me give you some sound advice. And do not take this as insulting in anyway. This is meant for your own good.
Don't become me. For the love of Gods', do not become me by saying that ****. Cold Winds, Tuulinen.
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
The Cursed Few
3757
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 19:37:00 -
[262] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:However you should be aware that I would also have been more than happy to escort the Shiigeru to Gallente Prime and fly close escort whilst she converted the entire surface of that world to slag if that was what it would have taken to reclaim Home.
And if I had to paint every star red with the blood of every man, woman and child with even one drop of Caldari blood in their veins to keep my homeworld safe, I'd do it, without hestitation. I would desperately search high and low for any other possible option first - amicable peace between the State and the Federation being the preferred choice - but if there was quite literally no other option, I'd do it. Don't get me wrong, I'd feel like the universe's worst monster, but I'd feel that after I'd made my homeworld safe.
Glad we understand one another.
Mane 614
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
616
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 19:46:00 -
[263] - Quote
Calm down everyone.
The Intaki solar system is in the hands of professionals now.
The Federation was expelled from the system. And, luckily, the Democracy is no more!
So, cut it out with useless talks and just let professionals do their job. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force
Cult of War
1609
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 19:46:00 -
[264] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:I find it painfully ironic that citizens of a nation led entirely by wealthy CEOs are criticizing the Federation for electing businessmen and aristocrats. See, the mistake you're making is in looking at the fact that only CEOs rule instead of looking at what has to happen for someone to become a CEO. It is entirely possible for a family to ascend to the heavens of the Executive boardroom from a history of Janitorial service and just as possible for a family to make the journey in the opposite direction.
Ahhh but how often does that happen? There's a reason why Heth's story captivated so many people. It's a true anomoly. As would the same situation be in the Federation.
And that assisted genocide wouldn't go so well I'm afraid. Heth could of obliterated Gallente Prime but he didn't, for he knew that all bets would be off after that. We could commit any atrocity, no matter how vile and cruel, and get away with it. And we would, unfortunately, do such things as history dictates that the Gallente are very vengeful.
Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2347
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 19:47:00 -
[265] - Quote
I think we've always held the idea that you do what you must over doing what you want, in common, Andreus.
I certainly don't hold it against you, that you'd feel that way. In fact it's admirable. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2347
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 19:58:00 -
[266] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:I find it painfully ironic that citizens of a nation led entirely by wealthy CEOs are criticizing the Federation for electing businessmen and aristocrats. See, the mistake you're making is in looking at the fact that only CEOs rule instead of looking at what has to happen for someone to become a CEO. It is entirely possible for a family to ascend to the heavens of the Executive boardroom from a history of Janitorial service and just as possible for a family to make the journey in the opposite direction. Ahhh but how often does that happen? There's a reason why Heth's story captivated so many people. It's a true anomoly. As would the same situation be in the Federation. And that assisted genocide wouldn't go so well I'm afraid. Heth could of obliterated Gallente Prime but he didn't, for he knew that all bets would be off after that. We could commit any atrocity, no matter how vile and cruel, and get away with it. And we would, unfortunately, do such things as history dictates that the Gallente are very vengeful.
You're talking like it would be the first time you guys have tried to crush Caldari space. It would be exceedingly expensive, I'm sure, but the Caldari Navy was designed from the ground up for the mission of defending Caldari space from the Gallente Navy. Military experts suggest that whilst we couldn't carry out a successful offensive general attack, we're more than capable of a holding action. If we weren't, do you think it wouldn't have happened already?
Anyway, setting that aside, I want to point out that I would also have regarded such an operation as a last resort. The point wasn't to make a threat and rattle a saber that's already ringing like a bell, it was just to point out that the real reason Caldari Prime happened was that it represents a 'red line' for the Caldari that it doesn't for the Gallente.
Again. I'm overjoyed that a peaceful solution was found.
As for Heth, I agree that it's unprecedented for a MTAC driver to become Executor. I was careful to note that social mobility of that sort requires a couple of generations, usually. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force
Cult of War
1609
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 22:27:00 -
[267] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:I find it painfully ironic that citizens of a nation led entirely by wealthy CEOs are criticizing the Federation for electing businessmen and aristocrats. See, the mistake you're making is in looking at the fact that only CEOs rule instead of looking at what has to happen for someone to become a CEO. It is entirely possible for a family to ascend to the heavens of the Executive boardroom from a history of Janitorial service and just as possible for a family to make the journey in the opposite direction. Ahhh but how often does that happen? There's a reason why Heth's story captivated so many people. It's a true anomoly. As would the same situation be in the Federation. And that assisted genocide wouldn't go so well I'm afraid. Heth could of obliterated Gallente Prime but he didn't, for he knew that all bets would be off after that. We could commit any atrocity, no matter how vile and cruel, and get away with it. And we would, unfortunately, do such things as history dictates that the Gallente are very vengeful. You're talking like it would be the first time you guys have tried to crush Caldari space. It would be exceedingly expensive, I'm sure, but the Caldari Navy was designed from the ground up for the mission of defending Caldari space from the Gallente Navy. Military experts suggest that whilst we couldn't carry out a successful offensive general attack, we're more than capable of a holding action. If we weren't, do you think it wouldn't have happened already? Anyway, setting that aside, I want to point out that I would also have regarded such an operation as a last resort. The point wasn't to make a threat and rattle a saber that's already ringing like a bell, it was just to point out that the real reason Caldari Prime happened was that it represents a 'red line' for the Caldari that it doesn't for the Gallente. Again. I'm overjoyed that a peaceful solution was found. As for Heth, I agree that it's unprecedented for a MTAC driver to become Executor. I was careful to note that social mobility of that sort requires a couple of generations, usually.
I don't think the Federation would be invading the State anytime soon. Overall the Federation prefers peace. Almost everyone that instigated the first war between our people were eventually put in jail or exiled, but I digress. And I see your point now, though I would prefer if you used a less controversial way of getting it across.
Coincidentally enough, you see the generational growth and regression in the Federation as well.
Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
2349
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 23:02:00 -
[268] - Quote
How is it an instructor put it to a Gallentean exchange pilot before the war? "When you're good you're very, very good and when you're bad we're watching."
I'm not meaning to be contentious, Fred. I honestly don't see anything contentious in what I said, but I know this is a subject about which it is impossible to talk without ruffling feathers. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
637
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 23:47:00 -
[269] - Quote
Mitchell Striker wrote:In the Federation any one can become President, in what other nation can that be said to be true?
And... that would be a good thing ? |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University
Ivy League
33
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 02:23:00 -
[270] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
However you should be aware that I would also have been more than happy to escort the Shiigeru to Gallente Prime and fly close escort whilst she converted the entire surface of that world to slag if that was what it would have taken to reclaim Home.
I must admit, I'd thought much more of you before reading this. I don't usually like insulting people directly, but you'll have to forgive me this one lapse.
You're a damn fool. The only thing I'm wondering now is if you'd be too busy fighting a war of extinction between two races to actually have the time to victoriously revel in your freshly reclaimed pile of ashes.
You would do your people no favors by trading their lives for dirt. |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 .. 13 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |