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Star Crush	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:23:00 - [31] Not to offend but this is a really stupid post to me. Look at what it takes to fly a frig and what it takes to effectively fly a BS on top of the mods/drones/overall stats of a BS compared to a frig and tell me why on earth (or space for that matter) would 1 or 2 frigs should be able to take on a BS and pawn.... I swear people need to think just a tad bit more before asking some of these questions.
Corp Scammer	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:24:00 - [32] Hmmm one on one battleship with good drones and NOS will beat an AF anyday - however 3 o 4 AFs versus the same battleships with good EW fittings and hardeners just outside of NOS range stand a very good chacne of knocking the BS over
Thudders	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:31:00 - [33] Edited by: Thudders on 10/02/2006 02:33:17 Originally by: Star Crush Not to offend but this is a really stupid post to me. Look at what it takes to fly a frig and what it takes to effectively fly a BS on top of the mods/drones/overall stats of a BS compared to a frig and tell me why on earth (or space for that matter) would 1 or 2 frigs should be able to take on a BS and pawn.... I swear people need to think just a tad bit more before asking some of these questions. I'm sure Durlok is not talking about T1 frigs. He's talking about AF's and ceptors. They take more SP to fly than a battleship. Therefore, your argument is invalid, and, not to offend, but your post is infinitly more stupid than anything I've heard this month, and I go to a Baptist college.
Karl Shade	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:31:00 - [34] Won¦t go into better or worse, every ship has it¦s merits but I will say this: The only class of ship that scares me in pvp regardless of what I¦m sitting in are frigs, and scaring people is half the fight.
Filan	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:32:00 - [35] keeping everything tech1 is the best way to test this. Rocket Kestrels are effective from what i hear.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:33:00 - [36] Originally by: Filan keeping everything tech1 is the best way to test this. Rocket Kestrels are effective from what i hear. Plated rocket kestrels will kill most inties 1 on 1 except for the Taranis, which is a bit harder. If used properly, they have good chances against most AFs. This is much harder though. -- Proud member of the [23]. The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video. <3 Tachikomas -Eldo But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes Immy > You All - Imaran Tachikomas > All ~kieron
Thudders	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Filan keeping everything tech1 is the best way to test this. Rocket Kestrels are effective from what i hear. I dont mean to offend, but do is your name Josh and do you go to my school?
Lord Gendor	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:38:00 - [38] Originally by: Thudders Edited by: Thudders on 10/02/2006 02:33:17 Originally by: Star Crush Not to offend but this is a really stupid post to me. Look at what it takes to fly a frig and what it takes to effectively fly a BS on top of the mods/drones/overall stats of a BS compared to a frig and tell me why on earth (or space for that matter) would 1 or 2 frigs should be able to take on a BS and pawn.... I swear people need to think just a tad bit more before asking some of these questions. I'm sure Durlok is not talking about T1 frigs. He's talking about AF's and ceptors. They take more SP to fly than a battleship. Therefore, your argument is invalid, and, not to offend, but your post is infinitly more stupid than anything I've heard this month, and I go to a Baptist college. Tech II ships arn't supposed to be a I win button, they are just better versions of their tech 1 counter parts, and do the job of either tackling or taking small ships down with ease. Small ships just dont put out enough dps to break the tank of most battleships in very small groups (2-3), or if they can it takes quite a while, and in that time you can be nossed and the drones will eat you up.
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:38:00 - [39] Originally by: Durlok To simplify it for those individuals that don't seem to understand what I'm asking/saying, here is an example. Say I have 5 friends that I run with in Eve. To make the most effective group of 5 in PvP is there any reason to use anything BUT battleships? I can see an argument for a single fast(or cloaked) tackler to allow the battleships to jump into the system and then warp straight to their target. But other than that, in PvP, is there a use for any ship type other than BS's? See and if you take 5 BS's and you run into 5 HAC's, they would eat you up. Example: 2 NOS Ishtars and 3 Deimos and your F'd. Mainly because of the base resistances of HAC's they are tough nuts to krack. Even a group of 2 'Ceptors and 3 Af's can pose a threat, if they catch a BS slow on a gang warp.
Dahin	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:42:00 - [40] they have totally different uses, comparison is not in order. It's like asking what's better: A grenade or a gun? The choice depends on the situation. Try doing a gatecamp with a bs, try ratting in anything other than a bs.
Durlok	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:42:00 - [41] Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Originally by: Durlok To simplify it for those individuals that don't seem to understand what I'm asking/saying, here is an example. Say I have 5 friends that I run with in Eve. To make the most effective group of 5 in PvP is there any reason to use anything BUT battleships? I can see an argument for a single fast(or cloaked) tackler to allow the battleships to jump into the system and then warp straight to their target. But other than that, in PvP, is there a use for any ship type other than BS's? See and if you take 5 BS's and you run into 5 HAC's, they would eat you up. Example: 2 NOS Ishtars and 3 Deimos and your F'd. Mainly because of the base resistances of HAC's they are tough nuts to krack. Even a group of 2 'Ceptors and 3 Af's can pose a threat, if they catch a BS slow on a gang warp. This is the type of info I've been looking for all along...thank you. At the same time I have to take your word with a grain of salt until you can give me reasoning/instances where this has been the case. Why wouldn't 5 BS's just tear apart 5 hacs?
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:48:00 - [42] Heavy nos is always better large smartbomb is always better heavy cap injector is always better Anyway, a major reason why battleships are better overall is that they have the biggest number of slots. The more slots you have, the more mods you can fit, the greater things you can achieve. It'd be interesting to see cruisers and frigs with as many slots as battleships, then battleships would not be viewed as king of all ships anymore.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:52:00 - [43] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/02/2006 02:53:26 Had some constant success at talking out T1 cruisers, or pairs, with a pair of ceptors. Larger ships have more range. Larger ships are more versatile. While a HAC might be able to overcome the BS in a narrow range engagement envelopes, the BS can do a range of things it can only dream of. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Saphathas	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:53:00 - [44] Originally by: Durlok Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Originally by: Durlok To simplify it for those individuals that don't seem to understand what I'm asking/saying, here is an example. Say I have 5 friends that I run with in Eve. To make the most effective group of 5 in PvP is there any reason to use anything BUT battleships? I can see an argument for a single fast(or cloaked) tackler to allow the battleships to jump into the system and then warp straight to their target. But other than that, in PvP, is there a use for any ship type other than BS's? See and if you take 5 BS's and you run into 5 HAC's, they would eat you up. Example: 2 NOS Ishtars and 3 Deimos and your F'd. Mainly because of the base resistances of HAC's they are tough nuts to krack. Even a group of 2 'Ceptors and 3 Af's can pose a threat, if they catch a BS slow on a gang warp. This is the type of info I've been looking for all along...thank you. At the same time I have to take your word with a grain of salt until you can give me reasoning/instances where this has been the case. Why wouldn't 5 BS's just tear apart 5 hacs? So... a 5 month player can beat a 1 month player in a BS VS frigate fight. This is called unballanced? Name me one MMO where a new player has more chance of defeating a more veteran player than Eve. And the type of ship you use depends on the situation. I can fly cruisers (I am still noob ^^), but I still stick with my frig most of the time.
Thudders	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:55:00 - [45] Originally by: Lord Gendor Originally by: Thudders Edited by: Thudders on 10/02/2006 02:33:17 Originally by: Star Crush Not to offend but this is a really stupid post to me. Look at what it takes to fly a frig and what it takes to effectively fly a BS on top of the mods/drones/overall stats of a BS compared to a frig and tell me why on earth (or space for that matter) would 1 or 2 frigs should be able to take on a BS and pawn.... I swear people need to think just a tad bit more before asking some of these questions. I'm sure Durlok is not talking about T1 frigs. He's talking about AF's and ceptors. They take more SP to fly than a battleship. Therefore, your argument is invalid, and, not to offend, but your post is infinitly more stupid than anything I've heard this month, and I go to a Baptist college. Tech II ships arn't supposed to be a I win button, they are just better versions of their tech 1 counter parts, and do the job of either tackling or taking small ships down with ease. Small ships just dont put out enough dps to break the tank of most battleships in very small groups (2-3), or if they can it takes quite a while, and in that time you can be nossed and the drones will eat you up. So, battleships are supposed to be an I-win button? No one ever said T2 ships are supposed to beat all, but T2 ships should stand some sort of fighting chance against a BS, at least if you want the game to be fun. You've acctually brought out the entire problem with battleships and balancing them with cruisers/frigs. Heavy NOS never misses, and therefore decimates smaller ships.
Durlok	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:57:00 - [46] Edited by: Durlok on 10/02/2006 03:00:24 Originally by: Saphathas Originally by: Durlok Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Originally by: Durlok To simplify it for those individuals that don't seem to understand what I'm asking/saying, here is an example. Say I have 5 friends that I run with in Eve. To make the most effective group of 5 in PvP is there any reason to use anything BUT battleships? I can see an argument for a single fast(or cloaked) tackler to allow the battleships to jump into the system and then warp straight to their target. But other than that, in PvP, is there a use for any ship type other than BS's? See and if you take 5 BS's and you run into 5 HAC's, they would eat you up. Example: 2 NOS Ishtars and 3 Deimos and your F'd. Mainly because of the base resistances of HAC's they are tough nuts to krack. Even a group of 2 'Ceptors and 3 Af's can pose a threat, if they catch a BS slow on a gang warp. This is the type of info I've been looking for all along...thank you. At the same time I have to take your word with a grain of salt until you can give me reasoning/instances where this has been the case. Why wouldn't 5 BS's just tear apart 5 hacs? So... a 5 month player can beat a 1 month player in a BS VS frigate fight. This is called unballanced? Name me one MMO where a new player has more chance of defeating a more veteran player than Eve. And the type of ship you use depends on the situation. I can fly cruisers (I am still noob ^^), but I still stick with my frig most of the time. Have you even read the thread? EDIT: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend you have...not really sure if that's giving you much though since I'd rather you have reading comprehension skills, be lazy, and not read it. HAC's take more time to get into than BS's. t2 frigs take more time to get into than BS's. There's the answer to your question.
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2006.02.10 03:02:00 - [47] Originally by: Durlok Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Originally by: Durlok To simplify it for those individuals that don't seem to understand what I'm asking/saying, here is an example. Say I have 5 friends that I run with in Eve. To make the most effective group of 5 in PvP is there any reason to use anything BUT battleships? I can see an argument for a single fast(or cloaked) tackler to allow the battleships to jump into the system and then warp straight to their target. But other than that, in PvP, is there a use for any ship type other than BS's? See and if you take 5 BS's and you run into 5 HAC's, they would eat you up. Example: 2 NOS Ishtars and 3 Deimos and your F'd. Mainly because of the base resistances of HAC's they are tough nuts to krack. Even a group of 2 'Ceptors and 3 Af's can pose a threat, if they catch a BS slow on a gang warp. This is the type of info I've been looking for all along...thank you. At the same time I have to take your word with a grain of salt until you can give me reasoning/instances where this has been the case. Why wouldn't 5 BS's just tear apart 5 hacs? See if you come fitted to fight HAC's you can survive. Most HAC's are vulnerable at long ranges especialy to big guns. But most HAC pilots when faced with a situation like that will warp out before your 1/2 way into armor. There is no 1 best ship for any situation. Although the HAC comes closest. HAC= BS level damage, BS level HP (with resistances factored in), and the maneuverability of a cruiser.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.02.10 03:13:00 - [48] Except the BS has drones, primary weapons, a secondary battery, a tank, EW...all at once. A HAC can do two or three of those. Yes, there are some tradeoffs involved, but as the number of ships fighting rises, HAC's rapidly become less useful. BS are the once and forever king of the line of battle. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
welsh wizard	Posted - 2006.02.10 03:17:00 - [49] Edited by: welsh wizard on 10/02/2006 03:18:02 The vast majority of the time, the guy who wins the fight is the guy with the right setup. Can 5 hacs kill 5 battleships? Depends how they're setup. Can a Prophecy kill a Hac? Depends how they're setup. Can an AF kill a tech 1 cruiser? Depends how both ships are setup. Can a noob kill a veteran? Depends how they've setup their ships.... There are of course numerous exceptions to this, for example a t1 cruiser almost certainly isn't going to kill a battleship, likewise an inty isn't going to kill an AF. Do you want to be in a battleship all the time? Probably not, it depends what you're doing, who you're fighting etc. Is a battleship more likely to keep you alive than any other ship? It depends on your foe and your situation. An educated guess would say a fast moving Hac is more likely to keep you alive while destroying lots of ships than any other ship. Simply because it stands a chance of getting out of fights it can't win, but it is also a formiddable opponent in most 1 vs 1 situations. There are so many many variables in Eve combat and thats what makes it such a good game. You're always trying to second guess your opponent. :)
Gary Goat	Posted - 2006.02.10 03:18:00 - [50] Quote: This is the type of info I've been looking for all along...thank you. At the same time I have to take your word with a grain of salt until you can give me reasoning/instances where this has been the case. Why wouldn't 5 BS's just tear apart 5 hacs? Well its all about tracking. Large turrets have low tracking which means they cant hit smaller targets well, if at all. It does depend a lot on the setups of the battleships as then can be specificly set up to counter a HAC gang and if that was the case then they would win. But if they were set up as snipers and got jumped by the HACs at close range, they wouldnt really have a chance as the HACs are small enough to avoid most of the battleships damage while dealing out massive damage themselves. A few days ago i was in a taranis and there was an apoc and cyclone at the gate. I was able to fly in and take out the cyclone without taking any damage beacuse i was to small and fast for there guns to hit me at all. If i was in a bigger ship, i would have been dead on the spot.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.02.10 03:21:00 - [51] Welsh Wizard, actually it's fairly easy for some Interceptors to kill AF's. AF's strenght is based entirely on their resistances and range. One interceptor, in particular, can do any damage type and close rapidly. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
welsh wizard	Posted - 2006.02.10 03:24:00 - [52] Edited by: welsh wizard on 10/02/2006 03:24:36 Originally by: Maya Rkell Welsh Wizard, actually it's fairly easy for some Interceptors to kill AF's. AF's strenght is based entirely on their resistances and range. One interceptor, in particular, can do any damage type and close rapidly. Thinking about it I guess you're right. I've never come across such a situation so I couldn't argue. If the AF is setup as a frigate killer with a web and or tracking mods I would say its going to win 95% of the time however.
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2006.02.10 03:24:00 - [53] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 10/02/2006 03:18:02 The vast majority of the time, the guy who wins the fight is the guy with the right setup. Can 5 hacs kill 5 battleships? Depends how they're setup. Can a Prophecy kill a Hac? Depends how they're setup. Can an AF kill a tech 1 cruiser? Depends how both ships are setup. Can a noob kill a veteran? Depends how they've setup their ships.... There are of course numerous exceptions to this, for example a t1 cruiser almost certainly isn't going to kill a battleship, likewise an inty isn't going to kill an AF. Do you want to be in a battleship all the time? Probably not, it depends what you're doing, who you're fighting etc. Is a battleship more likely to keep you alive than any other ship? It depends on your foe and your situation. An educated guess would say a fast moving Hac is more likely to keep you alive while destroying lots of ships than any other ship. Simply because it stands a chance of getting out of fights it can't win, but it is also a formiddable opponent in most 1 vs 1 situations. There are so many many variables in Eve combat and thats what makes it such a good game. You're always trying to second guess your opponent. :) I think what hes asking for is what class of ship hits the sweet-spot of most effective combat ship, not so much of what ship is the best. ATM the HAC hits the sweet-spot best..... .... That is until you factor in cost vs loss. The loss of a combat HAC hurts worse than any T1 or T2 BS. I shudder to think of what Elite BS's will be like
welsh wizard	Posted - 2006.02.10 03:26:00 - [54] Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 10/02/2006 03:18:02 The vast majority of the time, the guy who wins the fight is the guy with the right setup. Can 5 hacs kill 5 battleships? Depends how they're setup. Can a Prophecy kill a Hac? Depends how they're setup. Can an AF kill a tech 1 cruiser? Depends how both ships are setup. Can a noob kill a veteran? Depends how they've setup their ships.... There are of course numerous exceptions to this, for example a t1 cruiser almost certainly isn't going to kill a battleship, likewise an inty isn't going to kill an AF. Do you want to be in a battleship all the time? Probably not, it depends what you're doing, who you're fighting etc. Is a battleship more likely to keep you alive than any other ship? It depends on your foe and your situation. An educated guess would say a fast moving Hac is more likely to keep you alive while destroying lots of ships than any other ship. Simply because it stands a chance of getting out of fights it can't win, but it is also a formiddable opponent in most 1 vs 1 situations. There are so many many variables in Eve combat and thats what makes it such a good game. You're always trying to second guess your opponent. :) I think what hes asking for is what class of ship hits the sweet-spot of most effective combat ship, not so much of what ship is the best. ATM the HAC hits the sweet-spot best..... .... That is until you factor in cost vs loss. The loss of a combat HAC hurts worse than any T1 or T2 BS. I shudder to think of what Elite BS's will be like That is what I was aiming to say at the end of my post.
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2006.02.10 03:55:00 - [55] Originally by: welsh wizard edit: actually on further inspection where did I attempt to claim a particular ship is best? Do you mean the Prophecy line? If so, I was simply using that as an example. I don't fly them and probably never will. :D My fault, I should have said I agree with your observations. EVERYTHING really does depend on setups. The HAC, especially the Gallente ones, I feel are the best ships in the game for almost any combat situation WITH a generic setup. They have the resistance to warp away in time when they are caught at a long range sniping situation. The 5 man HAC example I gave could even keep most 'ceptors and AF's at bay or outright destroy them with medium drones, while still being able to thrash a group of BS or cruisers. If I could and isk wanst a problem, I would prefer to fly with a 5-10 man group of HAC's over even faction BS's.
welsh wizard	Posted - 2006.02.10 04:10:00 - [56] Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Originally by: welsh wizard edit: actually on further inspection where did I attempt to claim a particular ship is best? Do you mean the Prophecy line? If so, I was simply using that as an example. I don't fly them and probably never will. :D My fault, I should have said I agree with your observations. EVERYTHING really does depend on setups. The HAC, especially the Gallente ones, I feel are the best ships in the game for almost any combat situation WITH a generic setup. They have the resistance to warp away in time when they are caught at a long range sniping situation. The 5 man HAC example I gave could even keep most 'ceptors and AF's at bay or outright destroy them with medium drones, while still being able to thrash a group of BS or cruisers. If I could and isk wanst a problem, I would prefer to fly with a 5-10 man group of HAC's over even faction BS's. Can't argue with any of that. The Gallente ships tend to be better because they can fight in two ways at once. Being an exclusively Caldari pilot I find this quite sad :( . I'm liking the blaster Eagles though, with a good tank they can take on a Deimos! \o/
St Dragon	Posted - 2006.02.10 04:29:00 - [57] Originally by: Durlok Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar Originally by: Durlok To simplify it for those individuals that don't seem to understand what I'm asking/saying, here is an example. Say I have 5 friends that I run with in Eve. To make the most effective group of 5 in PvP is there any reason to use anything BUT battleships? I can see an argument for a single fast(or cloaked) tackler to allow the battleships to jump into the system and then warp straight to their target. But other than that, in PvP, is there a use for any ship type other than BS's? See and if you take 5 BS's and you run into 5 HAC's, they would eat you up. Example: 2 NOS Ishtars and 3 Deimos and your F'd. Mainly because of the base resistances of HAC's they are tough nuts to krack. Even a group of 2 'Ceptors and 3 Af's can pose a threat, if they catch a BS slow on a gang warp. This is the type of info I've been looking for all along...thank you. At the same time I have to take your word with a grain of salt until you can give me reasoning/instances where this has been the case. Why wouldn't 5 BS's just tear apart 5 hacs? This pretty much shows your lack of experience. Hacks are..... Smaller/Faster/Tougher than a Battleship if both sides in tho 5 v 5 fight were Properly set-uo with people who knew how to use them i would bet on the hacs to win. You kep on saying to people yes i hear you but i wont belive you without some examples/proof well heres mine Just compare the Atributes and skill bonuses That alone should tell you why hacs are better than tech 1 battleships. ----------------------------------------------- "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
eve warrior	Posted - 2006.02.10 05:47:00 - [58] Originally by: Durlok Edited by: Durlok on 10/02/2006 01:04:41 After reading up on Eve's ships/modules for awhile now I'm starting to get the idea that Battleships are better than frigs & cruisers for basically everything except, perhaps, tackling. I'm just curious if anyone out there has had a good amount of success in taking on equal numbers of battleships with HAC's and frigs. If not I'll admit to being a little disapointed in this game. Battle ships are great ships, but we kill BS all the time in hacs. We tend to use hacs as they are faster and we can cover more systems in them than we could with a BS. You can even kill a bs with one hac, at the end of the day it all comes down to how the ships are fitted. Why should a frig for 250k be able to kill a BS worth 100mill ? Yes if there is a small fleet of tech II frigs a BS is usualy in trouble. Personaly i would rather fight another BS than 5 Assault frigs . But i dont like flying frigs, whats the fun in losing ships that have no value. Even tech II ships with full tech II fits are just throw aways. I lose one of them and it does not bother me in the least, but losing a HAC or a BS and you do feel it. That to me is the rush of pvp in eve. Eve warrior
Soul Redemption	Posted - 2006.02.10 07:15:00 - [59] Noobs post alert!!! must say its very nubbish in many ways like screaming in real life "Bah my little fishing boat cant blow up that battleship over there bah bah bah" not fair H4XX0RS stop crying bout it tbh the game represents what would be the same in real life if your looking to blow up a dreadnought in your tiny T1 with its super massive weapon of bubble gum i wouldnt hold my breath now
Hellspawn666	Posted - 2006.02.10 07:51:00 - [60] Hac 1vs1 depending on the setup of the bs can win quite often but tbh there is no smaller ship can kill the bs's setup in any fit except possibly the absolution :) I think what your looking for is a win button?

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