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Durlok	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:02:00 - [1] Edited by: Durlok on 10/02/2006 01:04:41 After reading up on Eve's ships/modules for awhile now I'm starting to get the idea that Battleships are better than frigs & cruisers for basically everything except, perhaps, tackling. I'm just curious if anyone out there has had a good amount of success in taking on equal numbers of battleships with HAC's and frigs. If not I'll admit to being a little disapointed in this game.
Creyster	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:08:00 - [2] We have a guy in MC that killed a Battleship in a indy. So it is all about tactics and strategy. __masken ------------ Once Masken allways Masken!! KLADDKAKA (C) KingAC
Durlok	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:10:00 - [3] Originally by: Creyster We have a guy in MC that killed a Battleship in a indy. So it is all about tactics and strategy. __masken I'm not asking for the occasional story of success. For all I know that BS was outfitted by a moron and flown by a moron. I want to hear about people that have consistent success with this.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:10:00 - [4] Bigger is not necessarily better. Bigger has its weaknesses. Battleships are quite often killed by groups of frigates. -- Proud member of the [23]. The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video. <3 Tachikomas -Eldo But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes Immy > You All - Imaran Tachikomas > All ~kieron
xStormwingx	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:11:00 - [5] Edited by: xStormwingx on 10/02/2006 01:13:11 Edited by: xStormwingx on 10/02/2006 01:12:18 You mean like....2-3 frigs taking on 2-3 battleships? And winning? Are you out of your mind? D: 4 widdle ships, being able to take out 4 seperate battleships, with drones swirling and their small guns merely tickling the BSes's defenses, if at all. not even 2 AFs could destroy 2 BSes, if they were on the same/similar skill level... can't speak for the noob BS pilots though (1 intie taking down a BS is news to me, but still..that BS pilot must have been a complete nub.) Dunno about HACs though...depends on the skills i guess. But on the losing end 95% of the time i'd suppose... Quote: How many versus 1 battleship? I'm looking for semi fair fights, not 5 vs. 1. 1 frig vs 1 battleship is really fair? >_> --- :O
Durlok	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:11:00 - [6] Originally by: Dark Shikari Bigger is not necessarily better. Bigger has its weaknesses. Battleships are quite often killed by groups of frigates. How many versus 1 battleship? I'm looking for semi fair fights, not 5 vs. 1.
Durlok	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:14:00 - [7] Originally by: xStormwingx Edited by: xStormwingx on 10/02/2006 01:12:18 You mean like....2-3 frigs taking on 2-3 battleships? And winning? Are you out of your mind? D: 4 widdle ships, being able to take out 4 seperate battleships, with drones swirling and their small guns merely tickling the BSes's defenses, if at all. not even 2 AFs could destroy 2 BSes, if they were on the same/similar skill level... can't speak for the noob BS pilots though (1 intie taking down a BS is news to me, but still..that BS pilot must have been a complete nub.) Dunno about HACs though...depends on the skills i guess. But on the losing end 95% of the time i'd suppose... Yeah this is what I'm talking about. It seems to me that it's pointless to bring frigs to a fight (and perhaps hacs?). You may as well just all fly battleships. I'm looking for information that says otherwise right now.
Tony Fats	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:16:00 - [8] I've never taken anything bigger than a cruiser into PVP and probably never will.
Dust Angel	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:18:00 - [9] iv seen 5 frigs take out 2 bs _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics? Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind. If you can't handle the heat, out of the fire. -Capsicum
xStormwingx	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:18:00 - [10] bringing a frig or two against a BS is like bringing a sword to a gunfight. IF you're WTFAWESOMe and the opponent is completely retarded, you can win. Otherwise, no chance. (t2 frigs do tip the scales a little) If you're planning on attacking BSes, head out in a decently-sized group. It's the only way. (t1 frig-wise) Considering the BS's total firepower and abilities, a couple frigs can't do much and probably couldn't last long. 1-2 Large Bs smartbombs going off = dead frigs and corpses :o --- :O
Tony Fats	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Durlok Originally by: Dark Shikari Bigger is not necessarily better. Bigger has its weaknesses. Battleships are quite often killed by groups of frigates. How many versus 1 battleship? I'm looking for semi fair fights, not 5 vs. 1. See thats your problem right there. You think fights are supposed to be fair. Bzzzt wroooong.
Durlok	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Durlok on 10/02/2006 01:21:33 Originally by: Tony Fats Originally by: Durlok Originally by: Dark Shikari Bigger is not necessarily better. Bigger has its weaknesses. Battleships are quite often killed by groups of frigates. How many versus 1 battleship? I'm looking for semi fair fights, not 5 vs. 1. See thats your problem right there. You think fights are supposed to be fair. Bzzzt wroooong. In so far as balance is concerned fights should be fair. I don't care if fights are fair in practice, just in a balance discussion.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:26:00 - [13] Do you seriously think a single 1m ISK ship should be able to kill a well-fitted 100m ship? It really shouldn't. On the other hand, there are places for 1m ISK ships in combat. In fact, the vast majority of combat in EVE, even between rich alliances, is done in frigates and cruisers. Battleships are generally only for fleet combat. -- Proud member of the [23]. The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video. <3 Tachikomas -Eldo But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes Immy > You All - Imaran Tachikomas > All ~kieron
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:26:00 - [14] Individually, of course Battleships are better at almost everything. That just might be one of the reasons for them to be more expensive than the smaller ships (HAC price is just artificially high) However, if you put a certain value of battleship(s) against the same value in smaller ships, the battleship will lose 99% of the time. And many missions can probably be done faster in a HAC too.
Zolofine	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:26:00 - [15] Originally by: Durlok Edited by: Durlok on 10/02/2006 01:04:41 After reading up on Eve's ships/modules for awhile now I'm starting to get the idea that Battleships are better than frigs & cruisers for basically everything except, perhaps, tackling. I'm just curious if anyone out there has had a good amount of success in taking on equal numbers of battleships with HAC's and frigs. If not I'll admit to being a little disapointed in this game. You have bene misinformed. I feel much more vulnerable in a battleship than in a frigate tbh. BS is slow and sluggish, the ods of getting ganked are 10 times higher than when you are in something fast and mobile. Sure a BS is tougher, but than means absolutly didly when you are beign ganked, nothign can save you short of WCS and a lot of luck. So nope, bigger is deffo not always better. Every ship in EVE fill a specific role. BS are very nice for fleet battles, high range, big damage so they are ideal. The only ships that serve little or no prupose in EVE are tech 1 cruisers. They are much to slow to inherent mobility and much to soft to inherent combat proweness. HACS fullfill the latter much better, but HAC's are not really affordable so they don't exist.
EternalDragon	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:28:00 - [16] bigger + nos = better
Zolofine	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:30:00 - [17] Originally by: Dust Angel iv seen 5 frigs take out 2 bs You forgot to mention that the guys in frig prolly knew what they were doing and were most likely in ceptors or better and the 2 guys in BS were prolly set up for sniping and forgot their drones at home... I've seen 1 BS take out a whole army of frigs.. It's all about tactics and using the right weapon for the right fight. Taking a knife to a gunfight can be the best thing to do if you know how to use your knife and the other guy doesn't know how to use his gun ;-)
Kaeljen Dae	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:30:00 - [18] Although a Battleship is better than a frigate and cruiser in several aspects (for example: hitpoints, turret hardpoints/missile launcher hardpoints, possibility of dealing damage by the large guns, scanner strength) it has several disadvantages (speed, signature radius, price, agility). Beyond this, the overall (That is: most cases) most efficient way of fitting a BS has several drawbacks. These come in form of tracking/signature resolution and explosion radius/velocity mainly, when fitting large guns. It simply will have a hard time hitting smaller ships with its weapons designed to hit smaller ships. Although a BS could fit to kill frigates/cruisers, it's damage over time (dot from now on) will be below that of a BS fitted to fight other battleships and will usually be the underdog in such a confrontation. Also: why should you choose such a fitting on a BS when 2 cruisers (Which are way cheaper) will be 1,5 times more effective? The ballance between frigates, cruisers and Battleships and their duties are hardly interchangeable. Several frigates will be able to take down a BS easily, without having to fear a thing - unless they warp in at 100km from a sniping BS. Usually, this applies to all things you can fit. There are a few exceptions (like the sniping) that will keep the game spicy and not make just "another boring rock, paper, scissor" (with other names) game, but rather a very complex rock, paper, scissor game. There are certain things which can be used to minimize weaknesses (for example: webbers are great, when used to kill frigates) yet will condition you (you lose a medium slot, which you might miss lateron. How do you use your webber on that sniper that's 100km away?). What I can not understand are the Nosferatus. It really follows the "bigger is better" approach. A large nosferatu has the same effect on a battleship as it has on a frigate Unlike a siege missile launcher, a heavy drone or a large turret which needs some sort of support to hit small targets, they do not. Where is the tracking or signature resolution of a nosferatu? The same way a cruiser has to decide between fiting an assault or a heavy launcher on his high slots, they should have to decide whether to fit a medium or a small nos. At least that's what I think :) Kaeljen Dae
Durlok	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:30:00 - [19] Edited by: Durlok on 10/02/2006 01:30:46 Originally by: Zolofine Originally by: Durlok Edited by: Durlok on 10/02/2006 01:04:41 After reading up on Eve's ships/modules for awhile now I'm starting to get the idea that Battleships are better than frigs & cruisers for basically everything except, perhaps, tackling. I'm just curious if anyone out there has had a good amount of success in taking on equal numbers of battleships with HAC's and frigs. If not I'll admit to being a little disapointed in this game. You have bene misinformed. I feel much more vulnerable in a battleship than in a frigate tbh. BS is slow and sluggish, the ods of getting ganked are 10 times higher than when you are in something fast and mobile. Sure a BS is tougher, but than means absolutly didly when you are beign ganked, nothign can save you short of WCS and a lot of luck. So nope, bigger is deffo not always better. Every ship in EVE fill a specific role. BS are very nice for fleet battles, high range, big damage so they are ideal. The only ships that serve little or no prupose in EVE are tech 1 cruisers. They are much to slow to inherent mobility and much to soft to inherent combat proweness. HACS fullfill the latter much better, but HAC's are not really affordable so they don't exist. That's interesting, in another thread many people agreed that BS's were less likely to be attacked and that people generally ran to safe spots whenever one entered a 0.0 system. It was argued that frigs were better at getting to people before they could get to a safe spot however.
Mydrial Jacor	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:31:00 - [20] There's no better ship or ship class. Each one has its own role and is better at certain things that others. Frigates are perfect pack hunters and tacklers due to being small (hard to hit), fast and agile. In small groups they can down even well equipped battleships...usually. Cruisers are a nice mid range ship between frigates and battleships. Some consider this to be the weakest class. Again it really depends on the situation. Cruisers make excellent fire support or ew support for small groups or frig fleets. Hacs are a whole different storey altogther. Battleships are generally the most flexible as they have more slots to mess with and larger cpu/pwg. In general they are mostly designed to take alot of damage and dish alot of damage back with varying degress of focus between these 2 roles (i.e. tanking and ganking). They also have the longest ranged weapons of all the classes. The one real exception to this would be the scorpion that's well known for being a powerful EW tool in any group. The main penalties of battleships is that they have trouble hitting smaller targets as well as being expensive to build/buy and fit. They are also so and so are often left out of smaller groups that need speed more than anything. Everything above is just a generalisation for the most part. There are always people who use ships in unexpected ways effectively and this is a testiment to how good a job CCP has done in this aspect of EvE. Is bigger better? It all depends on the circumstances. In a straight 1v1 can a BS beat a frig? Who knows, it would depend on the setups, the pilots and the ship types. [Offering Freighter Service] Will deliver any legal goods to any high sec system. Fee is 500k per jump from pickup location(s) to destination.
mupparna 4tw	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:32:00 - [21] Originally by: Durlok Edited by: Durlok on 10/02/2006 01:04:41 After reading up on Eve's ships/modules for awhile now I'm starting to get the idea that Battleships are better than frigs & cruisers for basically everything except, perhaps, tackling. I'm just curious if anyone out there has had a good amount of success in taking on equal numbers of battleships with HAC's and frigs. If not I'll admit to being a little disapointed in this game. Thats for us to know and for you to never find out...
Entilzah Valen	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:32:00 - [22] Originally by: xStormwingx Edited by: xStormwingx on 10/02/2006 01:13:11 Edited by: xStormwingx on 10/02/2006 01:12:18 You mean like....2-3 frigs taking on 2-3 battleships? And winning? Are you out of your mind? D: 4 widdle ships, being able to take out 4 seperate battleships, with drones swirling and their small guns merely tickling the BSes's defenses, if at all. not even 2 AFs could destroy 2 BSes, if they were on the same/similar skill level... can't speak for the noob BS pilots though (1 intie taking down a BS is news to me, but still..that BS pilot must have been a complete nub.) Dunno about HACs though...depends on the skills i guess. But on the losing end 95% of the time i'd suppose... Quote: How many versus 1 battleship? I'm looking for semi fair fights, not 5 vs. 1. 1 frig vs 1 battleship is really fair? >_> I do the above all the time. Fortitude ftw.
Dianabolic	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:43:00 - [23] Originally by: EternalDragon bigger + nos = better EWAR. Originally by: Thomas Jefferson A society that will trade a little liberty for a little security will lose both and deserve neither
Andril	Posted - 2006.02.10 01:52:00 - [24] How do you figure frigs/crusiers not being able to take out a equal number of battleships is not balanced. Frigs/crusiers (tech 1) dont take much skills to fly, and with only a few mil sp you can fly them fairly well, but a to fly a battleship well you need much more sp, so if a couple of frigs could take out a battleship, that would be unbalanced. And when you get to tech 2 frigs and cruisers if they had the power to drop a battleship in 1 on 1 (well a good hac can do it, but usualy the battleship has the advantage) then everyone would be flying hac's and what would be the point of battleships. Balance is all about making as many ships, & setups viable and usful. As it stands there are very few ships which have little to no use, and most of those are cheep teir 1 frigs, and a couple cruisers. In a gang cruises and frigs can fill many differant roles, are cheep to produce, and are quite effective if you specialize them for one purpose.
Durlok	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Andril How do you figure frigs/crusiers not being able to take out a equal number of battleships is not balanced. Frigs/crusiers (tech 1) dont take much skills to fly, and with only a few mil sp you can fly them fairly well, but a to fly a battleship well you need much more sp, so if a couple of frigs could take out a battleship, that would be unbalanced. And when you get to tech 2 frigs and cruisers if they had the power to drop a battleship in 1 on 1 (well a good hac can do it, but usualy the battleship has the advantage) then everyone would be flying hac's and what would be the point of battleships. Balance is all about making as many ships, & setups viable and usful. As it stands there are very few ships which have little to no use, and most of those are cheep teir 1 frigs, and a couple cruisers. In a gang cruises and frigs can fill many differant roles, are cheep to produce, and are quite effective if you specialize them for one purpose. I'm trying to see where I stated that I want t1 frigs to be able to solo battleships...but sadly I'm not finding it. What I am asking is are there mixed groups of t2 frigs/hacs that have found a good amount of success in taking out equal or near equal numbers of battleships.
mrg29	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Durlok Edited by: Durlok on 10/02/2006 01:21:33 Originally by: Tony Fats Originally by: Durlok Originally by: Dark Shikari Bigger is not necessarily better. Bigger has its weaknesses. Battleships are quite often killed by groups of frigates. How many versus 1 battleship? I'm looking for semi fair fights, not 5 vs. 1. See thats your problem right there. You think fights are supposed to be fair. Bzzzt wroooong. In so far as balance is concerned fights should be fair. I don't care if fights are fair in practice, just in a balance discussion. so your idea of balance is one ship which costs 250k + fittings and takes a couple of days to train for should be able to go toe-to-toe with a ship which cost 100mill + fittings and takes a couple of months to train for (if its setup reasonably). -
Durlok	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:08:00 - [27] Originally by: mrg29 Originally by: Durlok Edited by: Durlok on 10/02/2006 01:21:33 Originally by: Tony Fats Originally by: Durlok Originally by: Dark Shikari Bigger is not necessarily better. Bigger has its weaknesses. Battleships are quite often killed by groups of frigates. How many versus 1 battleship? I'm looking for semi fair fights, not 5 vs. 1. See thats your problem right there. You think fights are supposed to be fair. Bzzzt wroooong. In so far as balance is concerned fights should be fair. I don't care if fights are fair in practice, just in a balance discussion. so your idea of balance is one ship which costs 250k + fittings and takes a couple of days to train for should be able to go toe-to-toe with a ship which cost 100mill + fittings and takes a couple of months to train for (if its setup reasonably). Read above please....
Durlok	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:09:00 - [28] To simplify it for those individuals that don't seem to understand what I'm asking/saying, here is an example. Say I have 5 friends that I run with in Eve. To make the most effective group of 5 in PvP is there any reason to use anything BUT battleships? I can see an argument for a single fast(or cloaked) tackler to allow the battleships to jump into the system and then warp straight to their target. But other than that, in PvP, is there a use for any ship type other than BS's?
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:14:00 - [29] Originally by: Durlok To simplify it for those individuals that don't seem to understand what I'm asking/saying, here is an example. Say I have 5 friends that I run with in Eve. To make the most effective group of 5 in PvP is there any reason to use anything BUT battleships? I can see an argument for a single fast(or cloaked) tackler to allow the battleships to jump into the system and then warp straight to their target. But other than that, in PvP, is there a use for any ship type other than BS's? No, its not most effective to use battleships. Battleships can't tackle. Battleships are very slow and immobile. Battleships are vulnerable and expensive. Most small gangs consist of interceptors, assault frigates, or cruisers. A small gang of battleships is extremely vulnerable and slow. -- Proud member of the [23]. The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video. <3 Tachikomas -Eldo But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes Immy > You All - Imaran Tachikomas > All ~kieron
Tenacha Khan	Posted - 2006.02.10 02:18:00 - [30] ive been in a group of 8 frigs and taking on a group of 5bs and taking down 2 bs with no losses. Had a 5 cruiser V 5 bs fight, taking down 3bs with no losses It all depends on tacics, and all those enemys were pvp fitted. I pwnt Wrangler - Tenacha

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