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Reimbursement policy + undocumented features

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F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.10 17:36:00 - [1] I'd like to discuss the reimbursement policy considering losing stuff due to undocumented features/unintended behaviour. Here are two examples: 1) If you use repair drones on a non-corpmate (who is not criminaly flagged) in empire = concordokkened. 2) If you log off before an agression timer runs out, the timer is reset to another 15 minutes. I once logged off 14 minutes after agression, and got podded 28 minutes after the agression occured. In both cases the GM's won't be able to undo the unjustice and have you swallow the bitter pill. Wrong? I sure think so.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.02.10 17:46:00 - [2] The second of those behavioirs is ENTIRELY intended. It is to prevent people from logging to escape the consequences of their actions. The first, however, sounds like a nasty bug (I don't know directly, never used repair drones in highsec) which SHOULD be a known issue and petitionable. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.10 17:51:00 - [3] Originally by: Maya Rkell The second of those behavioirs is ENTIRELY intended. It is to prevent people from logging to escape the consequences of their actions. The first, however, sounds like a nasty bug (I don't know directly, never used repair drones in highsec) which SHOULD be a known issue and petitionable. The second example happened to me before RMR was released. It could very well be that it is intended to work like that, but it sure is/was undocumented! I lost full set of halo implants because I assumed I was safe when I logged off 14 minutes after losing my ship. I am not pleading to get them back, I just want to discuss this. Undocumented is the keyword here.
Unuthiel	Posted - 2006.02.10 17:56:00 - [4] Quote: The second of those behavioirs is ENTIRELY intended. It is to prevent people from logging to escape the consequences of their actions. Oh? Wouldn't that be accomplished by simply keeping the ship online until the original timer ran out, rather than resetting it? Sounds like a bug.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.10 18:05:00 - [5] Originally by: Unuthiel Quote: The second of those behavioirs is ENTIRELY intended. It is to prevent people from logging to escape the consequences of their actions. Oh? Wouldn't that be accomplished by simply keeping the ship online until the original timer ran out, rather than resetting it? Sounds like a bug. No. The whole point is that if you log off within 15 minutes of PvP, a SECOND TIMER is activated. -- Proud member of the [23]. The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video. <3 Tachikomas -Eldo But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes Immy > You All - Imaran Tachikomas > All ~kieron
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.10 18:06:00 - [6] Edited by: F4ze on 10/02/2006 18:06:23 Actually, a dev response stating that this is how it is intended would be appreciated. My sense of justice says it isn't... Being podded 28 minutes after agression is just harsh.
Active1313	Posted - 2006.02.10 18:21:00 - [7] ok....Maybe this is due to the fact that I sm clueless but I'm gonna ask this anyway....I don't understand how the "agression Timer" got you podded. AFAIK Concord and other NPC's don't pod you...Only Players can pod you. Given this an Agression Timer has nothing to do with you losing you implants.....
BlackHole Bob	Posted - 2006.02.10 18:22:00 - [8] concerning crimnal flagging for crimes....thats how it works bro... as for your issues with transfer modules... if it did not work like that it would be VERY exploitable bro... both your points are mute as this is HOW the game is intended to work...and does work and if they change either it will be very bad.... you got jacked is all for not paying attention...live with it and move on its not CCP's job to "work with you" in times of criminal activity.... ecspecially in secure space... Blackhole Bob www.evegathering.com Las Vegas EvE Gathering 2006 March 15th and 16th
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.10 18:32:00 - [9] Edited by: F4ze on 10/02/2006 18:32:51 You should read my post: I don't want to change the pvp logoff timer. I don't want to change criminal flagging. It's undocumented about how it works. Getting concordokkened for using repair drones on a non-flagged player = wrong. PVP logoff timer reseting after logging off = wrong.
BlackHole Bob	Posted - 2006.02.10 18:43:00 - [10] Originally by: F4ze Edited by: F4ze on 10/02/2006 18:32:51 You should read my post: I don't want to change the pvp logoff timer. I don't want to change criminal flagging. It's undocumented about how it works. Getting concordokkened for using repair drones on a non-flagged player = wrong. PVP logoff timer reseting after logging off = wrong. dude i read your post and am not attacking you... 1. turn on your criminal flagging in esc menu. then you get a warning if your going to get concordoken (very simple solution for criminal issues that you dont understand) 2. I would never shoot a player and kill him and not know how it works. Obviously you know how it works. Do your homework before robbing the bank next time. You might not get caught. But if thats not possible, send the bank a complaint that there security is not documented. use the help channel as you can gain most if not all answers for anything in that channel you could always open a petition...but then you know thats not right either and CCP told you so.. so now you lost your ship. or what ever. and you need a reason to believe it of course couldn't be your playing habits. welcome to EvE...whis i could help more and give you answers but this is simply how the game works... many have LOST alot in eve many times over...welcome to the club...you now have been royally hazed by ccp:) Blackhole Bob www.evegathering.com Las Vegas EvE Gathering 2006 March 15th and 16th
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.10 18:50:00 - [11] Edited by: F4ze on 10/02/2006 18:52:48 Originally by: BlackHole Bob Originally by: F4ze Edited by: F4ze on 10/02/2006 18:32:51 You should read my post: I don't want to change the pvp logoff timer. I don't want to change criminal flagging. It's undocumented about how it works. Getting concordokkened for using repair drones on a non-flagged player = wrong. PVP logoff timer reseting after logging off = wrong. dude i read your post and am not attacking you... 1. turn on your criminal flagging in esc menu. then you get a warning if your going to get concordoken (very simple solution for criminal issues that you dont understand) 2. I would never shoot a player and kill him and not know how it works. Obviously you know how it works. Do your homework before robbing the bank next time. You might not get caught. But if thats not possible, send the bank a complaint that there security is not documented. use the help channel as you can gain most if not all answers for anything in that channel you could always open a petition...but then you know thats not right either and CCP told you so.. so now you lost your ship. or what ever. and you need a reason to believe it of course couldn't be your playing habits. welcome to EvE...whis i could help more and give you answers but this is simply how the game works... many have LOST alot in eve many times over...welcome to the club...you now have been royally hazed by ccp:) Dude, you _are_ attacking me. 1) Didn't happen to me. 2) It was a war. I know that the pvp logoff timer is 15 minutes (I read patchnotes every time). I COULD NOT POSSIBLY know that the pvp logoff timer is reset when you log off. I had to lose 1.5 bil worth of implants to learn that! EDIT: this thread is derailing a bit. I only wanted to discuss reimbursement of stuff lost to undocumented features. Anybody could lose stuff over something they could not possibly have known or predicted and it won't be reimbursed. And that is wrong imo.
Joram McRory	Posted - 2006.02.10 19:05:00 - [12] The real issue here is not that either of these things can hapen. people can have their opinions about whether it is right or wrong - but you didn't write the game, so those are just opinions.# The issue a complete lack of documentation regarding the entire game. I want to read the bit about starbase structures and how they work - in detail, I would like to be able to understand how all the increasingly complex skills work together. etc etc.... Ok I have been playing for well over a year now and have managed to get a fiar grasp of how the whole thing works, but there is no manual, no detailed explanation that I can sit down with one night and read cover to cover. I am sure I am missing a lot of possible advantages by not being able to do this. Players are left to sift through pages and pages (search function please) of forum posts filled with peoples theories, it is very rare to see definative explanations from CCP on anything. Come on CCP it shouldn't be that hard, write a manual! By the way - yes i do know there is a player guide - but that is more aimed at new players, to get them started, rather than a full blown manual. Joram
Jackson S	Posted - 2006.02.10 22:48:00 - [13] Well, why don't we document the game ourselves. I'm sure collectivly, we could more consistently document the game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_online
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.02.10 22:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Jackson S Well, why don't we document the game ourselves. I'm sure collectivly, we could more consistently document the game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_online Wikipedia is not the place to document very specific game features. There is an EVE wiki seperate for that purpose. -- Proud member of the [23]. The Tachikomas are DEAD! Click sig for video. <3 Tachikomas -Eldo But I'm the cutest of them all, and I'm not even a blue robot - Wrangler I have seen you. You cannot deny it anymore - Vanamonde You used to be one of the twenty three, now you are a part of me - Cortes Immy > You All - Imaran Tachikomas > All ~kieron POKEMON -eris Jacques was 'ere
BlackHole Bob	Posted - 2006.02.10 23:22:00 - [15] Edited by: BlackHole Bob on 10/02/2006 23:23:33 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Jackson S Well, why don't we document the game ourselves. I'm sure collectivly, we could more consistently document the game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_online Wikipedia is not the place to document very specific game features. There is an EVE wiki seperate for that purpose. how interesting this has become... EvE so deep and so BIG that it needs to have a HUGE doc written compiled by thousands of people along the way... here are a few starter links for your knowledge base of eve.... please feel free to add your info driven section of links to eve knowledge Official Online Player Guide Need we say more Grismar.net* Incredible EvE IN Game New player guide* For New Players The Forums (huge trove of info and your here now) Dev Blogs The Scoop Patch Notes Real Facts * - works ingame Blackhole Bob www.evegathering.com Las Vegas EvE Gathering 2006 March 15th and 16th
Fillmeup	Posted - 2006.02.10 23:31:00 - [16] Originally by: Active1313 ok....Maybe this is due to the fact that I sm clueless but I'm gonna ask this anyway....I don't understand how the "agression Timer" got you podded. AFAIK Concord and other NPC's don't pod you...Only Players can pod you. Given this an Agression Timer has nothing to do with you losing you implants..... Yeah, what he said. I too am clueless, but am I missing something?
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.02.10 23:45:00 - [17] You don't get reimbursed for making mistakes due to not knowing how something works. It's not CCP's fault you didn't test how these things worked or asked someone before trying. It's your fault. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Nafri	Posted - 2006.02.10 23:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Nyphur You don't get reimbursed for making mistakes due to not knowing how something works. It's not CCP's fault you didn't test how these things worked or asked someone before trying. It's your fault. CCP doesnt explain how new features function, and I dont see a point to annoy your customers with unfinished/undocumented stuff. Want a list, what got borked latly? Stacking/Carriers/Dreads/Force Recons/kill rights CCP is well know for poor implemention of features and not a single explanation of them. And customers arent there for testing there stuff.
Tenacha Khan	Posted - 2006.02.11 00:06:00 - [19] Most stuff is not docmented, you have to test it out for yourelf. The pvp timer resetting to 15mins when you log off is documented, and makes sense. The repair drone thing sounds like a bug, but if they say it isnt, then it isnt. I pwnt Wrangler - Tenacha
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.11 00:20:00 - [20] Originally by: Tenacha Khan Most stuff is not docmented, you have to test it out for yourelf. The pvp timer resetting to 15mins when you log off is documented, and makes sense. The repair drone thing sounds like a bug, but if they say it isnt, then it isnt. I am surprised to say the least. Can you provide a link?
Gray Carmicheal	Posted - 2006.02.11 00:40:00 - [21] Originally by: F4ze Edited by: F4ze on 10/02/2006 18:06:23 Actually, a dev response stating that this is how it is intended would be appreciated. My sense of justice says it isn't... Being podded 28 minutes after agression is just harsh. Logging to avoid combat is just weak. Sorry. But yeah, I think the Repair drones thing is a bug, I've seen it happen too. It's sad. This sig's wearing Boots of Mod Escaping! Too bad I had a remote to those boots then, off button works fine - Wrangler
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.11 01:01:00 - [22] Edited by: F4ze on 11/02/2006 01:02:10 Originally by: Gray Carmicheal Originally by: F4ze Edited by: F4ze on 10/02/2006 18:06:23 Actually, a dev response stating that this is how it is intended would be appreciated. My sense of justice says it isn't... Being podded 28 minutes after agression is just harsh. Logging to avoid combat is just weak. Sorry. But yeah, I think the Repair drones thing is a bug, I've seen it happen too. It's sad. I didn't log off to avoid combat FFS! I logged off because I wanted to go to bed and I thought that after 14 minutes of warping around, my pod would disappear in one minute. But it didn't and I got probed and podded after 28 minutes. On a timescale it would look like: Combat -> 14 minutes -> log off -> 14 minutes -> podkilled. I assumed that it would be: Combat -> 14 minutes -> log off -> 1 minute -> ship disappears. Actually, I'm pretty sure that 99% of all people do not know how this works.
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.02.11 01:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Nyphur You don't get reimbursed for making mistakes due to not knowing how something works. It's not CCP's fault you didn't test how these things worked or asked someone before trying. It's your fault. CCP doesnt explain how new features function, and I dont see a point to annoy your customers with unfinished/undocumented stuff. If they didn't explain it, why don't you just test it? They didn't completely explain probes, write guides on target-jamming or give us the stacking penalty or capacitor recharge equation. People found those by testing it. Honestly, why should they document everything well or even at all? We even have an entire server for testing it. There's no excuse for going blindly into a battle assuming you know how an undocumented feature works. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.02.11 01:13:00 - [24] Linky Quote: REMEMBER: You must be online for the 15 - 20 minutes it takes for the aggression timer to count down. You can¦t log out, wait, then log in again. Its an older entry, but its talking about the same effect. Whenever you do a session change (jump, eject from a ship, logoff, dock, etc.) you reset your agression timer. Its how its always worked.
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.11 01:32:00 - [25] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Nyphur You don't get reimbursed for making mistakes due to not knowing how something works. It's not CCP's fault you didn't test how these things worked or asked someone before trying. It's your fault. CCP doesnt explain how new features function, and I dont see a point to annoy your customers with unfinished/undocumented stuff. If they didn't explain it, why don't you just test it? They didn't completely explain probes, write guides on target-jamming or give us the stacking penalty or capacitor recharge equation. People found those by testing it. Honestly, why should they document everything well or even at all? We even have an entire server for testing it. There's no excuse for going blindly into a battle assuming you know how an undocumented feature works. If patch notes say "logging off after pvp now has a timer of 15 minutes". Would you assume that there is more to it than just that? Or if a Gallente control tower says "100% bonus to silo capacity". Would you assume that it's not working and test it? No! You would anchor a silo, verify that it works, leave your pos for 10 days, and after 10 days return to find that half of your materials are gone because the bonus was not applied after the next DT. (I've seen this happen also, and no reimbursement whatsoever). Or what if you fly a recon ship into hostile territory equiped with a cloak and a cyno generator and get blown up because you tried to activate your cloak and it didn't work. You would get no reimbursement. Or if you put your dread into siege mode assuming that it can't be jammed and then all of a sudden find yourself being jammed and subsequently killed (this is now fixed)? You guessed it....no reimbursement. I could go on and on, some things more unjustified than others. I have no problem at all with some reimbursements being refused, but in case of undocumented features and bugs, I can't see how CCP justifies a no-reimbursement-policy.
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.11 01:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Hllaxiu Linky Quote: REMEMBER: You must be online for the 15 - 20 minutes it takes for the aggression timer to count down. You can¦t log out, wait, then log in again. Its an older entry, but its talking about the same effect. Whenever you do a session change (jump, eject from a ship, logoff, dock, etc.) you reset your agression timer. Its how its always worked. That's the concord agression timer, which is unrelated to the pvp logoff timer. Try again....
SK Rooster	Posted - 2006.02.11 02:14:00 - [27] dude tbh most ppl dont give a crap about your interpretation of the log off rules. the fact of the matter is, if you logged off before the timer, you deserved what you got. most ppl will agree with me on this, it dont matter if you were 'tired' to others it just looks like youre logging to avoid death. end of story.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.02.11 02:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Nyphur You don't get reimbursed for making mistakes due to not knowing how something works. It's not CCP's fault you didn't test how these things worked or asked someone before trying. It's your fault. In other words, we need to regression test the game for CCP. Yes, I came to this conclusion when they start playing tricks with the patch notes. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Garth Sigmundsen	Posted - 2006.02.11 02:27:00 - [29] Nahh, that's *******s... Say he logged off after 10 mins... Timer resets to new 15 mins... Logs in again... Timer now at 14 mins... Stays online for 5 mins... Timer down to 9 mins... Logs off again... Back to 15 mins... Is this correct? If so, where's the justification for that? You could theoretically keep your agression timer on forever... Doesn't make any sense at all... Surely 15 mins total is enough, as long as your ship remains attackable?
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.11 02:37:00 - [30] Originally by: SK Rooster dude tbh most ppl dont give a crap about your interpretation of the log off rules. the fact of the matter is, if you logged off before the timer, you deserved what you got. most ppl will agree with me on this, it dont matter if you were 'tired' to others it just looks like youre logging to avoid death. end of story. From the FAQ: If a character is criminally flagged, the flag stays active for at least 15 minutes after the criminal activity. The timer does not expire after jumping between solar systems. If the player commits another criminal act while the flag is active, the timer restarts. How would you interpret it? I'm this > < close to starting to flame people.

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