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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.01 06:01:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 01/09/2003 06:01:47
You are contradicting yourself.
First you say
 Quote:
I see no evidence of a "slowly shrinking" playerbase on that page.
and then
Quote:
All online games experience a "surge" of players at the beginning, which slowly ebbs.
What is that, please, if not "slowly shrinking"? Never said that this shrinking cannot be reversed and will go until the server population reaches zero, but until now the server pop is declining.
There was a surge of new players one month ago, probably caused by the lowering of the price of eve to 20$, but that surge ebbed quickly.
free speech not allowed here |
SkyLeach
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Posted - 2003.09.01 06:05:00 -
[32]
you need to learn and adapt from your mistakes,
some tips:
send a scout ahead of your main fleet. have escorts. equip cargo holders for evasion / escape / speed.
check the map for active systems and destroyed ships + pod kills.
just a few of the measures you could hve taken to help, there are other things you could have done too.
Also.. the old saying about eggs in one basket?
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Jake Pliskin
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Posted - 2003.09.01 06:06:00 -
[33]
Unfortunate that you lost your stuff, but travelling in 0.0 without an escort and in an indy is asking for it.
A few CSM's back, and i do not have the direct quote, i do remember the subject of secure containers being used for transport came up.
To cut a long story short. Indy with it's massive cargo hold, you put all your stuff in a number of secure containers, and as i'm sure this is why you thought you were 'safe' to travel in 0.0 space in your indy.
This tends to cut out the dangers of having loot stolen. Ship gets destroyed and pirates still don't get the loot. As much as some people around here don't like it, playing a pirate is a valid role to play in Eve.
As these players were in battleships, and large secure containers have around about 10 million hit points at the moment it would have taken some time of solid firing on the containers to finally destroy them.
The plans are to bring in changes (again from a past CSM that i read)
The secure containers will need to be anchored, and it takes time to anchor / un-anchor
A secure un-anchored container will act just like a standard container. This will be so the loot will be 'take-able' again
I'm in support of these changes. There are supposed to be risks in carrying valuable items through low-security space, and people will have to start playing the game as it was intended.
ie - Indy carrying valuable cargo will NEED escorts and protection
Cheers |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.01 06:06:00 -
[34]
Quote:
What is that, please, if not "slowly shrinking"? Never said that this shrinking cannot be reversed and will go until the server population reaches zero, but until now the server pop is declining.
The implication of this thread was that CCPs poor customer support or handling of in-game issues was "driving players away" and that such a trend would continue and hurt CCP financially.
You seemed to post this link in support of such a claim.
Fact is it's a natural flow and ebb of players, and is not evidence of any "trend" and certainly not an indication of "things to come."
-VC
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
cold lazarus
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Posted - 2003.09.01 06:28:00 -
[35]
Edited by: cold lazarus on 01/09/2003 06:30:45
Quote:
Quote:
I'm sorry for your losses, and I can understand how frustrating it must feel. But right or wrong, nothing you described here was against any rules I can think of. The game is designed with high sec space for safe travel and low sec space where it's not so safe.
I can agree that the destruction of your secure cargo containers is a bit pointless, but I wouldn't describe it as griefing, though that's just my opinion.
Again Wrangler has missed the point of the post. But then CCP tends to miss the point quite often. It's not the fact that anything was done illegally, but that in a matter of seconds this game can go from being great to loosing weeks or months of hard work and time. If someone spends that much time working towards a goal, to just loose everything in such a short time, it really makes the game no fun at all. Every other pvp game I've played has had some form of loss control to prevent things like that from happening. CCP will continue to loose customers to this fact. Most games would've doubled, if not tripled, their playerbase in the first 3 months. But not Eve. I used to see 6-7k online on the weekends. Now I see 3-5k max. The subscriber base probably hasn't actually gone done, but the amount of happy players has.
Wrangler has stated the truth why is it CCP's fault this person did not think to think to hire an escort to go through 0.0 space where he KNOWS there are dead end pirates ???.
this persons lack of thought lost the corp all their wealth and supplies NOT the fault of CCP. 100m isk+ in an unprotected indie please regardles of whether they are in secure tainers or not an i am damn sure the pirates would have sat there shooting them for fun as they sit there shooting ANYTHING for fun 
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Zorgan
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Posted - 2003.09.01 06:51:00 -
[36]
I would love to flame this thread. but all I can say is wow, far out man.
Sigs suck |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.01 07:04:00 -
[37]
Quote:
Wrangler has stated the truth why is it CCP's fault this person did not think to think to hire an escort to go through 0.0 space where he KNOWS there are dead end pirates ???.
this persons lack of thought lost the corp all their wealth and supplies NOT the fault of CCP. 100m isk+ in an unprotected indie please regardles of whether they are in secure tainers or not an i am damn sure the pirates would have sat there shooting them for fun as they sit there shooting ANYTHING for fun
I can see the pirates viewing it as a "Last word" situation.
By using the secure containers, the original poster sought to deprive the pirates of his valuables even if they successfully intercepted him. The secure containers have no counter, which makes this possible.
So the pirates decided to have the absolute last word on the matter and their guns spoke louder than the half-implemented secure containers.
Btw, this is part of the reason why I opposed the blueprint copy changes. If CCP had allowed blueprint owners to make an infinite copy but activated a copy limit on the original, the loss wouldn't have been as devastating if he had taken a copy out into 0.0 space...provided he had bought an original. That was the purpose behind copies anyways: backups to keep the originals safe 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Ashton Black
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Posted - 2003.09.01 07:17:00 -
[38]
Aww man.....
Tough break. But face it.... risk vs reward. You too much risk just for a relocation... trying it one unescorted trip is at least risky possibly even incompetent. I am a relative n00b and even I never take more than 10mil in any one ship.
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Fusco T
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Posted - 2003.09.01 07:17:00 -
[39]
I think the punishment as someone above described it can be a bit severe in the game.
But I think what venur takes for granted is that people coming into the game don't know all the ins and outs of staying safe.
One can go for weeks without incident and think they're doing everything right but then bam lose most of everything in one night. Happened to our corp we lost 4 of 5 cruisers in one night all to different things. But luckily it was only like week 2 or 3 of release.
TO the original poster: Most of the advice in this thread is crap. Escort? nah. Dumb to bring expensive stuff through 0.0? nah. Our corps indy pilot has yet to lose a ship (knocks on wood). 40-80 mil loads everyday.
some tips:
1) Find your balance of speed and cargo holds. If you are going through an un book marked area. Our indy pilot moves about 1115 with 5112 available holds (badger ii).
2) If bestower then get a couple good nano-fibres (they give bonus to cargo/speed/agility) at least two. helps you accelerate faster and turn towards gate very fast.
3) Bookmarks. Hot spots or long trips you plan on travelling many times. Note where you jump into a sector (which planet/moon) then warp to gate. Now from angle you came in at steer your ship to a point that would put you 15k DIRECTLY on the other side from the planet you came from. Get your add BMs button and click ok very fast (it tends to remember the coordinate when you press 'ok' not when you click add bookmark).
4) If people are hanging by a gate ASSUME HOSTILE! Have your scanners up and refreshed at all times and when you approach gate from warp be ready to warp to some other object in space, preferably one that is cluttered with others so people don't see where you went too.
5) Look at local and if there is ANYONE in it assume they are all camping the gate you need to go through and be ready to warp or make run for gate.
6) Know your distance limit. Learn what the 'jump' distance is of ALL gates (yes they are different) and when you come out of warp mouse over the gate to check distance. If too far then you should already be in warp.
7) video card; If you don't have at least a 5200u or better then this game is a big dice roll for you as sometimes you will be dead or near dead before screen loads.
Anyway, if you stay be safe. If not then GL with another game.
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cold lazarus
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Posted - 2003.09.01 07:20:00 -
[40]
Jash i agree with you about the bp's but would you move your corp and its holdings in 1 unprotected indie through known pirate hot spots? even loosing copies from a limited bp is costly.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.01 07:21:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 01/09/2003 07:23:57
Quote:
But I think what venur takes for granted is that people coming into the game don't know all the ins and outs of staying safe.
So part of learning a game is learning the risks. New players in EverQuest don't go running into the dangerous zones without getting punished for their bravery. Every game is like this. Maybe eve is less of a "handholder" but it's not like the information isn't made readily available.
Take time in learning the game. If you've been playing for weeks, there's no excuse not to know that 0.0 security space is dangerous. Not only is it OBVIOUS, but it's plastered all over the forums, in the manual, and in warning messages you receive when warping to the danger zones.
If you work real hard for stuff, then go flying around the universe like you have nothing to worry about, I have no sympathy for you if you get blasted.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Jojin
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Posted - 2003.09.01 07:53:00 -
[42]
In EVE sometimes the lessons are costly. These high priced lessons will be remembered and have a dramatic impact on future game play.
As is previously mentioned, there were numerous precautions which could have reduced or prevented such a loss.
I am sure the idea was the secure containers would protect from losses greater than just a ship. It was poor judgment to think a hard to ***** shell would make someone give up on attempts to open the container. Secure containers were designed to provide some medium of temporary security to items in space, not necessarily aboard a vessel. The pilot and the vessel itself is the primary protection of goods in a transport situation.
I am of the belief the players were playing the game and someone didnĘt like the resultant of how things played out. I donĘt believe there was any intention of causing personal grief to the player. The destruction of the goods could have been through frustration, the lack of knowledge the destruction would not yield the contents or just new pirates who didnĘt realize they may be able to make a deal and earn a considerable profit.
Any way you look at the situation, there were no real violations of rules or mechanics. All it was was players playing the game.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.01 08:04:00 -
[43]
Quote:
In EVE sometimes the lessons are costly. These high priced lessons will be remembered and have a dramatic impact on future game play.
Yes; this "impact" will be people will stop being so damn careless with things they have worked hard to gain.
People are too comfortable with the "once I get something it's mine forever" atmosphere created by games like EverQuest.
EVE requires you not only to work to earn things, but also to KEEP them.
Sorry but this situation is cut and dry; transporting that many incredibly valuable items in a SINGLE ship on a SINGLE trip through 0.0 security space w/o even taking the couple extra minutes to send a scout ahead on the route. I mean, 10k for a shuttle, or 100m and your entire corporate holdings.
Which would you risk given the choice? The only thing this proves is that EVE requires a little bit of brains to be successful. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
--VC
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.09.01 08:27:00 -
[44]
I honestly can't believe this guy put that much kit in a single ship.
BP's and rare minerals should have been put in secure containers in a 3-4km/s cruiser (cheap), while the indy should have been carrying all the crap.
This looks like a case of someone trying to cut corners to save time, and literally putting all his eggs in one undefended basket.
I wouldn't carry that sort of value in a single ship purely for CTD/bug reasons.
also, it's probably why nobody has asked for his stuff yet..
.
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Sc0rpion
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Posted - 2003.09.01 09:05:00 -
[45]
Quote:
But I think what venur takes for granted is that people coming into the game don't know all the ins and outs of staying safe.
He knew enough to put his corp's belongings into secure containers. He knew the risks.
"The true secret to enjoying life is to live it dangerously."
-Freidrich Nietzche |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.01 10:52:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Fact is it's a natural flow and ebb of players, and is not evidence of any "trend" and certainly not an indication of "things to come."
-VC
If there would a a flow and ebb it would be ok, but it isn't atm. We have a slow decline after a initial high.
Since 3 month we have only ebb and no flow at all. Possible that it will rise again, but that is only speculation. The only "fact" atm is that it is decreasing steadily.
Party because of ccps costumer relations, which isn't really the best around here - but the biggest problem is the lack of content atm. But we'll see how things will develop.
free speech not allowed here |
Jean
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Posted - 2003.09.01 11:11:00 -
[47]
Dunno if this has already been suggested (didn't read all posts) but imo it would have been much more fun to NOT destroy the secure containers, but to negotiate with the corp how they could get them back. For instance by paying 10M isk or summin. Just destroying them is pretty lame.
If the corp would agree to the 10M isk, then new indies could warp in and pick up the secure cans under the watchful eye of the pirates. That is cool gaming.
-----------------------------
Specialist in Digital Analogy |
Ange Noire
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Posted - 2003.09.01 11:17:00 -
[48]
Send Scouts,
Escort your caravans
They are pirates, that's the way they choose to play, don't expect them to be fair or kind.
There's so many bounty hunter or battleship commander who might be happy to escort your convoy for some reward.
I'm sad that someone ruin your fun, and your work, but honestly, that was risky to pass through a 0.0 system without a solid escort grp
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Mantrus
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Posted - 2003.09.01 11:23:00 -
[49]
This guy should have used an escort team, with a few dummy indys as well.
Anybody who put ALL the wealth into one indy, and then does not even bother to escort it properly deserves everything they get.
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NeoMorph
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Posted - 2003.09.01 11:42:00 -
[50]
Edited by: NeoMorph on 01/09/2003 11:43:19
I really do feel for this guys loss but I have to agree with the sentiment that putting all the eggs in one fragile basket was a bit naive to say the least.
It may take longer but spreading the loads would have saved you a hell of a lot of money and time in the long run.
Here is NeoMorph's tips for the future...
- When moving items ALWAYS check the map for ships destroyed in the last 24 hours and pods killed in the last 24 hours.
- Check the number of ships in systems along your route. If you spot systems with 2 or more pilots insystem be extra carful.
- If you can do it, mount 2 MWD's on your transport. This can get you to the gate and through in jig time if you spot trouble.
- DON'T USE AN INDIE TO TRANSPORT BP'S - they are just too fragile and slow. Basically the minimum you should use is a cruiser with at least 1 MWD on board. If you can't do this just don't move your bp's until you can.
- Never put all your valuables into one point source failure item - this means even if you have a lvl 2 battleship with loads of mods on there is still the possibility you could get a CTD or make a*****up that could lead to the loss of your stuff.
- If you are moving through 0.0 and think there is going to be a lot of risk make sure your insurance is paid up to the max you can afford. If you do lose you ship(s) you will at least get something back.
Following those rules I have never (so far) lost a single ship to a blockade and I travel through 0.0 space a lot ( did over 300 jumps at the weekend doing various trades ). 
-------------------------------------------
<Stavros> the first motor bike i ever rode
<Stavros> was a honda gold wing
<Ak-Gara> hah
<Stavros> |
WhiteDwarf
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Posted - 2003.09.01 11:43:00 -
[51]
"I can agree that the destruction of your secure cargo containers is a bit pointless, but I wouldn't describe it as griefing, though that's just my opinion"
Either way, he's leaving...
"Trust No One" |
RAIDAKAOZ
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Posted - 2003.09.01 11:52:00 -
[52]
I must say I have seen enough of this in my time on eve , lol Im not picking
Wrangler I just wanna know the truth, is this on a dummy card or something (I'm sorry for your losses, and I can understand how frustrating it must feel ) cause this is the exact start of damn near ever paragraph I got when I attempted to contact the GNs for an exploit or bug
Quote:
I'm sorry for your losses, and I can understand how frustrating it must feel. But right or wrong, nothing you described here was against any rules I can think of. The game is designed with high sec space for safe travel and low sec space where it's not so safe.
I can agree that the destruction of your secure cargo containers is a bit pointless, but I wouldn't describe it as griefing, though that's just my opinion.
------------------
If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it is probably a chicken that CCP ****ed up. |
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.09.01 13:26:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 01/09/2003 13:34:32
Only true morons would blow the containers up before investigating what they could get for them, tell us their names so we can publically ridicule them. 
Oh, just read the entire thread, Sinister bwahahahaha, man alive are there no real pirates out there? Jebus help me, the cramps, what losers!  
Convert Stations
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Jerrico Delen
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Posted - 2003.09.01 13:52:00 -
[54]
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: Xen0 on 01/09/2003 02:09:30
Quote:
Who killed you?
I did....
Actually it was both of us - he convo'ed me after we let loose and asked why we killed him and his cargo containers - one of those typical "im going to cancel my account because of you" convos, it was.
PsXDnS
Sinister Corporation
I hope you and the rest of the sinister corp have a conversation like that quite soon, then the rest of us can enjoy the game a lot more!
========================================
Leodis Enteprises Corporation
Small skilled UK based corp, apply if you think you have what it takes. |
McWatt
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Posted - 2003.09.01 14:20:00 -
[55]
Edited by: McWatt on 01/09/2003 14:22:59
Edited by: McWatt on 01/09/2003 14:22:19
all the changes that have been done to this game have made people absolutely careless.
protected by ueber concord, secure containers and sentry guns they think they can do whatever they want at any place.
yet i was shocked by the amount of people on this thread who completly rule out using escorts.
if this game was close to the way it should be, nearly every action should involve the use of escorts (or of armed/fast ships at least, as in this case).
their non-existence points to the trouble in the concept!
oh and what risks?
anybody moving (orig.) bp after initial purchase is, i m sorry, an idiot.
the biggest risk your running (while the long promised player station are still absent) is the difference between lowest insurance and mineral costs of your ship. (=nil)
oh, and unnecessary looses because of ctd, lag, and yes, stupidity.
congrats to sinister. nice that your still there.
and:
DESTROYING SECURE CONTAINERS IS A GOOD IDEA!
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Janus Rebelknight
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Posted - 2003.09.01 15:16:00 -
[56]
Quote:
Now the parisites will show, they always follow behind the griefers that you described...
CCP wants the game to be a pvp only game, fine, we have seen what happens, client base decreases daily. I wonder if anyone in CCP ever took a class related to business, economics, much less IT in general...
Trouble is its not a pvp game.
Why? because of lag. The curse of the online gamer.
Lag just kills combat in EVE and the lack of cheap ships with which to fight with.
Give us a cheap combat destroyer (say 1 million or so isk) which in groups of 2 or 3 can match a vexor or in 3 or 4 a thorax and then I'll show you more combat.
I used to play SFC2, where losing a ship in a campaign was a real blow, as much as it is in EVE. And the same problem existed there. Bad lag destroyed any possibility of fun.
It also meant players actively avoided player versus player combat, because it cost too much to lose your ship. You could lose days of work in campaign mode.
Battleships and bigger ships dominated the maps, with players often ganging up on the players in lesser ships. The arguments took much the same line as here, with BS pilots demanding that crusiers and frigates basically stay and be slaughtered. Of course the frigate and cruiser pilots couldn't stay... otherwise they would have no chance of catching the uber players in BS's!
Anymore than 6 or 7 players in the one zone in EVE and its a lag fest plain and simple especially when each player brings along drones and missiles.
-----
Janus
"I'm not a stripper, I'm a miner." |
Wrangler
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Posted - 2003.09.01 15:20:00 -
[57]
Quote:
I must say I have seen enough of this in my time on eve , lol Im not picking
Wrangler I just wanna know the truth, is this on a dummy card or something (I'm sorry for your losses, and I can understand how frustrating it must feel ) cause this is the exact start of damn near ever paragraph I got when I attempted to contact the GNs for an exploit or bug
Nah, I mean it. I was mostly worried that it would sound like I'm offering my condoleances for a death in his family or something.
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
Janus Rebelknight
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Posted - 2003.09.01 15:26:00 -
[58]
Quote:
That being said, it was a momumental blunder on your part to be travelling in this fashion. Such a move should be planned carefully. If your corp lacks the resources for an escort, then at the very least a corp member in an alt should have been scouting the path ahead of you looking for signs of trouble. Indies should be used to transfer the large bulky items (cheap minerals, mods, ammo etc). A fast a strong ship should have been used to transfer the bp's and valuable minerals (zydrine and megacyte). The way the game is designed right now, there is no reason to become a victim in a situation like this. Moving a corporation's base of operations is a huge undertaking, and what you have done sir would be the real world equivalent of transporting gold in a shopping trolly in a questionable neighborhood.
I have to agree.
When a corpmate and I went on a mining trip we took 2 cruisers and an indy with us. I took a fully armed cruiser out first, caught a fast frigate back to base.
Then he in the other cruiser and I in the indy warped out together to our mining base.
It was a 500k indy which we could replace in a heartbeat thanks to insurance. It carried nothing valuable except for mining equipment, drones and weaponry. All things we had bps for.
We took more care protecting much less.
-----
Janus
"I'm not a stripper, I'm a miner." |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.09.01 16:33:00 -
[59]
What's this crap about playerbase decreasing!?
Check http://www.eve-i.de/tool_serverstat.php
Then look at the 3 month graph - seems pretty f*cking steady to me.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
nono
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Posted - 2003.09.01 17:24:00 -
[60]
Quote:
What's this crap about playerbase decreasing!?
Check http://www.eve-i.de/tool_serverstat.php
Then look at the 3 month graph - seems pretty f*cking steady to me.
Looks pretty F*ucking steady to me to Josh. Steadily declining. Slowly yes but still lower on the right then on the left. Your second account is helping and so is mine and many many others but it's slowly waning. The peaks you see are Sunday's, the best day for EvE numbers. If the rest of the world played this game we wouldn't see the curve the way we do. It would be nice to see it climb to peak at startup and not see it drop until downtime. Notice the time frame of the climb and drop on a daily basis.
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